what do lower tie bars do???????

I always wondered what a lower tie bar does to the suspension of a car.
Is it the same as a rear sway bar?

I always see them on integras and sometimes civics.
I will have to admit, they look really nice.
However, I'm just curious to know how much that bar actually helps and what's its purpose.

Thanks :)

Man what are you stupid? What does an upper tie bar do? hehehe...

(hey you know im kidding before someone posts up "gee what an asshole that sparq is... hahaha) But actually I guess you might wanna wait till someone with a more "technical" answer to post ~ remember im just an audio dude :D :bloated:

Originally posted by sparq
Man what are you stupid? What does an upper tie bar do? hehehe...

(hey you know im kidding before someone posts up "gee what an asshole that sparq is... hahaha) But actually I guess you might wanna wait till someone with a more "technical" answer to post ~ remember im just an audio dude :D :bloated:

Yeah man are you dumb?? :)
J/K

To be honest no one really knows what they do, as far as being noticable. What I can tell you is what the point of installing them is, to strengthen the sub frame, basically, if you wanted to auto X this is a legal way to beef up your frame. Beacsue you can't have the frame reinforced by adding steel bars etc. The bars, will strenthen the pickup points if you have sway bars installed, in fact they are a must especially in the rear, bracuse of all the stress they put in the sub frame.
It is said they help in higher speed situations where frame flex under heavy cornering is more extreme.
here are mine

rear (not on right now)
http://www.dezoris.com/tiebar.jpg
front
http://www.dezoris.com/frontbar.jpg

they do the least of any bar on your car...the front strut, rear strut, front tie, lower tie all do little to nothing for you in a corner...they make your car feel more responsive, which is a good thing, but they won't do what a good sway bar setup will do for you

heeeeeeeeey....why is everyone calling me stupid all of a sudden?!?!?!?!
:)

thanks sparq.....look what you started!!!!
Yeah, I know you don't know much about suspension...you're an audio guy. I think of you as the audio god!!!!!!!!
I remember when you pretty much took over the audio forum on purehonda!!!! :)
If you like....visit my page about my updated soundsystem.
http://www.sounddomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=121440&page=7
Please tell me what you think.....because I know you will have a good insight on the topic. Plus, your opinion means a lot to me, oh might audio god!!! :)
natcc99@hotmail.com




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.going back to the topic...........
I know that it strengthen the frame and prevents body flex.
I was just wondering what it does for handling performance.
I guess it sounds likes it just makes your car more responsive.

What about rear sway bars?!?!
How much difference is that from a tie bar???

Originally posted by natcc99
heeeeeeeeey....why is everyone calling me stupid all of a sudden?!?!?!?!
:)

thanks sparq.....look what you started!!!!
Yeah, I know you don't know much about suspension...you're an audio guy. I think of you as the audio god!!!!!!!!
I remember when you pretty much took over the audio forum on purehonda!!!! :)
If you like....visit my page about my updated soundsystem.
http://www.sounddomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=121440&page=7
Please tell me what you think.....because I know you will have a good insight on the topic. Plus, your opinion means a lot to me, oh might audio god!!! :)
natcc99@hotmail.com




.
.
.
.
.
.going back to the topic...........
I know that it strengthen the frame and prevents body flex.
I was just wondering what it does for handling performance.
I guess it sounds likes it just makes your car more responsive.

What about rear sway bars?!?!
How much difference is that from a tie bar???

a rear anti-roll bar aids in reducing body roll and weight transfer while cornering...it won't stiffen the chassis like a tie bar...the thicker you go on the rear, the more oversteer your going to get...this is good up to a point..if you keep going thicker and thicker rear anti-roll bar the more squirrly your rear end will be....the FF design of the Civic, Integra, etc. tends to cause more oversteer...the cure for this is a good sized rear anti-roll bar, say 22mm and 19mm or less front anti-roll bar will be good...depending what car you have, some have front and rear anti-roll bars...like I said before, Tie bars just aid in responsiveness of your car

hello

thanks for some answers.

it looks like it would be better to by a anit-roll bar for the rear as oppose to a tie bar.

I have an LX accord and it's sad because it does not have a rear sway bar
Only the EX model come with them.
(assuming I'm correct on that above info)

which brand would be the best for such a bar?
I know Eibach makes them. :)

Originally posted by natcc99
hello

thanks for some answers.

it looks like it would be better to by a anit-roll bar for the rear as oppose to a tie bar.

I have an LX accord and it's sad because it does not have a rear sway bar
Only the EX model come with them.
(assuming I'm correct on that above info)

which brand would be the best for such a bar?
I know Eibach makes them. :)

eibach, neuspeed, progress, suspension techniques....there are many companies....I don't know anything about accords, I know there has to be many companies that make them for your year accord though

First off, tie bars add to the responsiveness of the steering due to their increasing structural rigidy at key suspension to frame points. They do make a sizable difference in chassis rigidty and suspension performance, which is why you'll find them as factory equipment on cars like the integra Type R. Which ones are most effective just depends on the application.

Secondly, sway bars increase weight transfer, not decrease it. Adding a thicker rear sway bar increases both lateral weight transfer from the inside to outside wheel, and weight transfer from the front to rear of the car. That's precisely why they decrease understeer levels inherent in the base chassis.

One other thing to remember is that stiffer sway bars do not necessarily increase the handling ability of a car. They only do this if the car isn't neutrally balanced to begin with or has camber problems during hard cornering, other than that their main benefit is in driver confidence and not increased adhesion.

Originally posted by texan

their main benefit is in driver confidence and not increased adhesion.

so what would aid adhesion texan, new tires? spring/shock combo?

Originally posted by piscorpio


so what would aid adhesion texan, new tires? spring/shock combo?

I'd imagine a decent set of tires would be a good start...something with a good contact patch...I don't think your 14" steelies is going to house something like that:lol2:

get some 15" wheels my friend:)

perhaps some bronze Si wheels:eek: :D

Tires of course are the #1 thing. They're the only thing that actually creates traction, the rest is in the suspension and frame it works off of (think of it as the suspension's backbone) and how well they keep the tires solidly and flatly aligned on the road surface. The suspension also has a great deal to do with feel and controllability, which is what we are after during suspension modification. Alignment, spring rate and damper rates are what we modify, and their effect is anywhere from barely felt to so important that the cars needs to be driven with a different style to be properly controlled. Again, in the confines of one size fits all, the only modification I can always recommend is great tires. If you start getting Honda specific or car specific though, I can always recommend better than stock shocks and almost always to get moderately stiffer springs.

Sorry to sound so vague, but I personally don't feel there are many blanket statements when it comes to suspension modification as to what works best. You have to present a specific questiofor a specific car in order to really get a good answer, but again that's just my opinion. Hope this helps explain things, peace.

It is nice to sit back and have someone answe shit for you, Texan you are such a whore!

I can't answer this from a technical stand point., but I'll tell you what I've experienced with mine since I had it installed on my '00 Civic coupe. I always noticed that under moderate speeds on a tight turn, or one of those 270 dgree turn freeway on/offramps, the tendancies of my car, was for the rear end to want to slide out towards the opposite direction of the turn, that I'm sure is mainly due to my POS stock tires/rims setup, but it happened none-the-less. Once I got my lower rear tiebar installed, my car (and steering) felt more responsive, and more balanced (from the rear mostly) under hard cornering. The rear didn't have as much of a tendancy to slide out anymore, and I could push the car faster in a turn or curve before the rear would feel floaty in means of traction (gotta love FWD :D ). I hear as for bars on your car in terms of brace bars, the front upper, and the rear lower are best to get. And as mentioned above, they certainly look sweet n a car, I like the look of the DC Sports lower tie, the best. A nice bar I'de love to own is that SWEET Comptech swaybar/tiebar all-in-one unit they make/sell for around $370. It's a tiebar mounted onto a sway bar, so you get the weight transfer and hadling abilities of a swaybar, while ALSO getting the added chassis rigidy and stiffening of a tie bar. Very cool indeed. :sun: Here's a pic of my tie bar on my Civic:

http://phixion.freewebspace.com/tiebar.jpg

Hello SilverY2KCivic

Thanks for you insight and experiences.

In response to your views....I'm surprised about my car.
The reason for this is because my rear does NOT "float" under hard turns.

The rear stays with me and it's my front end that I'm worried about. I seem to be getting a lot of understeer....a condition where my front wheels lose traction first.

Sometimes, I want to pull my e-brake to swing my rear around, but I don't do that since I'm too afraid to pull such a move.
I think I've been playing GrandTurismo too many times HEHEHEHEHEHE

I've noticed only under EXTREME conditions that my rear will loosen up and start floating.
(that was the time when my rear swung outwards and cause my car to go sideways down the road. Scary...and I have never done that again :eek: )


Anyways...for a car that seems to have a lot of understeer, what can one do to balance that act?!?!?!?!?!?!
Tighten the front end or tighten the back end?

Originally posted by natcc99


Anyways...for a car that seems to have a lot of understeer, what can one do to balance that act?!?!?!?!?!?!
Tighten the front end or tighten the back end?



I think I'll post that as another topic so others can see and read about it. :)
see you there.

Another consideration is, braking, alignments and possible lowering.

1.)Is he lowered
2.)Are you ever braking or comming out of a turn
3.)what tires are you running and what are your alignment #s

Originally posted by Dezoris
Another consideration is, braking, alignments and possible lowering.

1.)Is he lowered
2.)Are you ever braking or comming out of a turn
3.)what tires are you running and what are your alignment #s

1.) yes....the accord is lowered
2.) I don't brake into the turn, but instead downshift to 2nd...and if needed a tap on a the brake.
3.) perfect alignment :) camber kit front with extended bolts for the rear.

How fast are you going into the turn and are you using heel to to to enter the turns?

Originally posted by Dezoris
How fast are you going into the turn and are you using heel to to to enter the turns?

I'm probably going around 20mph or so into a hard right turn.

I only downshift and tap on the brake when necessary.
I don't think I am locking up my wheels.

Originally posted by natcc99
Hello SilverY2KCivic

Thanks for you insight and experiences.

In response to your views....I'm surprised about my car.
The reason for this is because my rear does NOT "float" under hard turns.

The rear stays with me and it's my front end that I'm worried about. I seem to be getting a lot of understeer....a condition where my front wheels lose traction first.



It's weird that we have 2 different results, but I think mine is mostly due to the fact of me having to remove my upper front strut bar when I put my intake on, and then I was barless for a while, and so had to get used to being that way again, and then get used to having a rear bar when I got that installed. So hot having a front, and having a rear probably dials out some of the understeer maybe? I dunno really. But I DO feel that my front wants to slip out at times too, like I can totally feel and notice the understeer of my car, esp. when pavements transition surfaces during a turn. I'm going to be getting a Neuspeed upper 4-point brace though when I have some $$$ saved up here soon.

Originally posted by SilverY2KCivic


It's weird that we have 2 different results, but I think mine is mostly due to the fact of me having to remove my upper front strut bar when I put my intake on, and then I was barless for a while, and so had to get used to being that way again, and then get used to having a rear bar when I got that installed. So hot having a front, and having a rear probably dials out some of the understeer maybe? I dunno really. But I DO feel that my front wants to slip out at times too, like I can totally feel and notice the understeer of my car, esp. when pavements transition surfaces during a turn. I'm going to be getting a Neuspeed upper 4-point brace though when I have some $$$ saved up here soon.

It is, but then again realize that (IMHO) at least 75% of the way a car feels, balance wise, is due to the driver and not just the suspension setup. That's especially true in fwd cars that inherently understeer too, since trail braking techniques and heel/toe shifting can really optimize how the car takes a set during turn-in. Secondarily, no two cars will take to modifications the same, and even if they did different driving styles do dictate different suspension setups for maximum confidence and quickness. I personally like the little bit of understeer my car has stock, it's safe and allows me to get aggressive with trail braking without thinking I'm going to be sliding sideways all the time. Some others who drive my car feel that it's got too much front end plow though, however I have no problems getting it to drift slightly when I want or need some rotation at the rear end. IMO, your experiences just go to show that the perfect setup isn't just vehicle and application specific, but also driver specific.

Originally posted by texan


It is, but then again realize that (IMHO) at least 75% of the way a car feels, balance wise, is due to the driver and not just the suspension setup. That's especially true in fwd cars that inherently understeer too, since trail braking techniques and heel/toe shifting can really optimize how the car takes a set during turn-in. Secondarily, no two cars will take to modifications the same, and even if they did different driving styles do dictate different suspension setups for maximum confidence and quickness. I personally like the little bit of understeer my car has stock, it's safe and allows me to get aggressive with trail braking without thinking I'm going to be sliding sideways all the time. Some others who drive my car feel that it's got too much front end plow though, however I have no problems getting it to drift slightly when I want or need some rotation at the rear end. IMO, your experiences just go to show that the perfect setup isn't just vehicle and application specific, but also driver specific.

That is an excellent point to keep in mind, as I didn't really consider that aspect of it before. :o But yes, each person adapts to each car they drive, differently.