More troops?

I'm not comparing, Iraqi's are comparing, what they think trumps anything I think.

Rumsfeld may not be right in ordering this to be done, but this war is unlike any other, so adjustments will have to be made across the board in geopolitics IMO. I may be wrong too, still studying as this thing progresses, with that said, we should consult NATO or who ever needs to have a say in this matter, if he hasn't already.

So the average Iraqi,who has endured many years of dictatorship by Saddam,and has learnt not to publicly criticise the leadership,is going to be totally honest when some stranger comes to the door and asks them if they like the guys who just invaded,bombed the fuck out of the country,massacred the army,and are still shooting anyone that they perceive to be a threat?I don't think so.

And what about those who don't want the U.S. there?Does their opinion trump everything?

At least I am getting some acknowledgement that what Rumsfeld may be doing is wrong.He's becoming remarkably like the man who he sent troops to IRAQ to depose.

I'm sure the Iraqi public is as wishy washy as our own, survey them next week, it could all be different.

If 150 people watch a car wreck, you're going to get a 150 versions of how many died in it, and exactly what took place. Magnify that about 10,000 times in relation to the Iraq conflict where changes are occuring by the second. We're just going to have to keep sifting through the info, no?

I think the whole subject should just get dropped. Getting the US to leave Iraq would be a wonderful thing. The reason why I, and probably some of my buddies over there might agree is cause we're tired of having to do this sort of thing. It gets old ok! I honestly don't know what would be good for the Iraqi people. I think you could compare them to a child thats been abused their whole life by some alcoholic parent. How are you going to re-hab someone like that. Do you really think that the US is doing a worse job of running the country than Saddam??? If so your perception on reality is beyond help. The only reason why this stuff is on the news is because it can be (now). As bad as it may seem at the Iraqi people have the freedom to speak out and bitch about whats happening. Remember if Saddam was in control those crying on TV would have been shot moments later!! Oh but now the noble cry.....this is whats sad!!! Where were your tears when Saddam was torturing Kurds, his family members and the general Iraqi public......Oh I get now that the US is involved( must be about oil!) The bleeding hearts have awoken........I think its way too late to address this issue.....to give a shit about the Iraqi public. This should have been taken care of over ten years ago. I do agree with Taranaki Ol' Donny Rummy is a bumbling Idiot. He seems to be slipping more and more each day on this issue...but on the other hand maybe the US wouldn't be such a demon if the rest of the world would get off their ass and stop balling in front of abortion clinics and do something. Hello UN!!! There Im done

USA Today
9/15/2003
By Dave Moniz

EXCERPT:

WASHINGTON — The chief of the U.S. Army Reserve is taking the unusual step of warning all 205,000 soldiers under his command that the Army Reserve is "on a war footing" and will need to take tough measures to meet commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In a memo describing the actions he is taking to address growing concerns about unusually long tours, Lt. Gen. James Helmly told commanders to cancel training not related to the war on terrorism and identify soldiers who aren't fit enough to be sent overseas. The memo went recently to Army Reserve commanders around the country. "I want to initiate a full court press here," Helmly wrote. "We've got to get out front of the press and rumors and perceptions and talk straight to our people."

Full story. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-15-reserves-chief_x.htm

Colin Powell appears to live in some kind of dream world,fully insulated from the harsh realities of war............


Published on Monday, September 15, 2003 by the lndependent/UK
Powell's Baghdad Briefing Ignores High Price of Failure
by Robert Fisk

We had to walk through a quarter of a mile of barbed wire to reach Colin Powell, the American Secretary of State, last night. We had to pass through four checkpoints, including three body searches. Apache helicopters circled the conference center and Bradley fighting vehicles sat in the darkness outside.

But inside was air conditioning, brightness, optimism and Secretary Powell. He had just had a "very exciting meeting" with the new "Governing Council". He was "deeply impressed" by what he saw in Baghdad - "people hard at work rebuilding a nation, rebuilding a society". So forget the $87bn (£55bn) President George Bush needs to run Iraq for the next year, forget the dead Americans and the far greater number of dead Iraqis who pay the price each day for the folly of this occupation. Forget the American soldier killed near Fallujah yesterday when a bomb blew up beneath his Humvee, wounding seven of his colleagues. He didn't rate a mention from ex-General Powell. It was the Coalition of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief. Sure, there was the briefest of mentions of the latest catastrophe - the killing of nine Iraqi policemen by US forces outside Fallujah - and of the compensation that might be paid to their families. It was, as America's proconsul, Paul Bremer, put it mildly "a very regrettable incident" which "is still under investigation by our military". Tell that to the people of Fallujah who want revenge.

And so we got the same old story. There would be a "free, democratic Iraq that will be a friend and partner of the United States ... and a responsible player on the world stage". It will be "some time" before a new Iraqi government can take over, Mr Powell told us - so much for the message from the French Foreign Minister, Dominique de Villepin, to Mr Powell in Geneva - and there was still "instability" in the country. He could say that again.

"But in many parts of the country, things are quite secure and stable." Unfortunately for Mr Powell, however, the Americans happen to be running the unstable bit; and even the Secretary of State was forced to admit - though no one has actually produced any proof of this - that "we have acknowledged that some terrorists have started to come into the country".

Mr Bremer, who is regarded as an "anti-terrorist" expert back in Washington, kept to the local scene, enjoying the precision of his economic statistics.

On Saturday, he announced that Iraq had produced 1,624,000 barrels of oil, 95 per cent of the revenue of which goes to the Iraqi Development Fund and 5 per cent for the 1991 Kuwaiti reparations. No mention, of course, of the amount Iraq is supposed to pay for its own invasion. Mr Powell talked about the $20bn Mr Bush plans to spend on Iraq. The far more frightful figure of $87bn that the US taxpayer is supposed to doll out for this occupation didn't rate a mention.

It was, in fact, the same story the Americans have stuck to since they arrived in Baghdad. Or more or less the same story. There would have to be a constitution. It would have to be ratified. There would have to be free elections. There would be a "leadership dedicated to democratic principles". Mr Powell - who never ventured outside the barbed wire and checkpoints yesterday - had apparently noticed "a vibrancy [in Iraq] that I attribute to the understanding of freedom ... through this land". America had "liberated" Iraq, he said several times. The word "occupation" didn't cross his lips.

He wanted good news, not the stories that were "more visual [sic] and more negative in nature". He wanted "a little more time, attention and energy" directed at "the more positive stories". And so say all of us. Which is presumably why the occupation authorities no longer even distribute their overnight security warnings to humanitarian organizations in Baghdad. If they did, the reports would show that US forces are now being attacked up to 50 times every night, that missiles are being fired at US planes almost every day, that neither Baghdad nor Basra airports are safe enough to open.

There wasn't even a word about Mr Powell's disastrous meeting in Geneva, which has left the Americans - for now - with no hope of seeing foreign armies riding to their rescue in Iraq. There was just lots of good news, along with one memorable soundbite, which all occupying powers announce. "We don't want to stay here a day longer," Mr Powell said. "We are hanging on because it's necessary to stay with the task. We came as liberators ... we've liberated a number of countries and we don't own a square foot of one of them except where we bury our dead."

These days the dead go back to the US and while Mr Powell was in Baghdad, the comrades of the soldier blown up in Fallujah yesterday were preparing his last journey home.

.................................................. ...............................................

seriously.....the U.S. Defence department pronouncements are beginning to look more and more like the Iraqi Information Minister's ridiculous ramblings.

seriously.....the U.S. Defence department pronouncements are beginning to look more and more like the Iraqi Information Minister's ridiculous ramblings.

Eh, it sounds more like a college students essay to me.
:loser: . Anything we haven't heard before in that essay?

Got anything useful to put up against it,or are you just one of those wanky patriots who don't give a shit for the truth as long as you like what you hear?

Got anything useful to put up against it,or are you just one of those wanky patriots who don't give a shit for the truth as long as you like what you hear?

No need to put anything against it. Mr Fisks version of the truth reads like an editorial. So opinion passes for truth as long as it corresponds with your own?

No need to put anything against it. Mr Fisks version of the truth reads like an editorial. So opinion passes for truth as long as it corresponds with your own?


There are plenty of facts in the article,are you going to ignore them if you don't like them?All I hear from the pro-war lobby is how awful it was under Saddam,and how much better it will be soon.How dangerous it is for the troops out there,and how perfectly natutral it is to shoot first and ask questions later.How the world will have to eat humble pie whenthe evidence of WMD's is finally uncovered,we're just a little too busy to look for it now.

The pro-Iraq camp has nothing but wooly feel-good patriotism to justify its claims.Those of us who think that the invasion of Iraq was a slap in the face to the civilised world can point to exact dollar amounts and geniuine reports of casualties to support our arguments.

Your 'truth' comes from the White House,Yogs.Mine comes from the real world

There are plenty of facts in the article,are you going to ignore them if you don't like them?All I hear from the pro-war lobby is how awful it was under Saddam,and how much better it will be soon.How dangerous it is for the troops out there,and how perfectly natutral it is to shoot first and ask questions later.How the world will have to eat humble pie whenthe evidence of WMD's is finally uncovered,we're just a little too busy to look for it now.

The pro-Iraq camp has nothing but wooly feel-good patriotism to justify its claims.Those of us who think that the invasion of Iraq was a slap in the face to the civilised world can point to exact dollar amounts and geniuine reports of casualties to support our arguments.

Your 'truth' comes from the White House,Yogs.Mine comes from the real world

Your truth hardly comes from the real world. Even using the terms “wooly feel good…” points out that your views are as tainted as anyone’s. The same facts and figures you have brought up also point out how well the Iraq operation is going. Casualties are never a good thing, but they are extremely light as compared to other rebuilding efforts over the last century.

After World War II, the we reconstructed Japan unilaterally. Without any assistance we had a constitutional democracy and legislature in Japan in about five years. It’s the same people who cried that there would be thousands of body bags coming home from Iraq if we attacked and claimed it a quagmire for the battle for Baghdad two days before it was over are the same ones crying about failure now. They don’t know history. They seem to remember that things take time. I’m sure they would have been crying how the occupation of Japan was an abject failure at this point too. :rolleyes:

After World War II, the we reconstructed Japan unilaterally. Without any assistance we had a constitutional democracy and legislature in Japan in about five years. It’s the same people who cried that there would be thousands of body bags coming home from Iraq if we attacked and claimed it a quagmire for the battle for Baghdad two days before it was over are the same ones crying about failure now. They don’t know history. They seem to remember that things take time. I’m sure they would have been crying how the occupation of Japan was an abject failure at this point too. :rolleyes:

I'll stick my nose into this thread again....just to clarify a few facts.
Japan took 6-1/2 years to rebuild after WW2, a far cry from 'about 5 years' in my opinion.
The Japanese people did not resist the Allied forces which occupied Japan after the war, they conceded defeat in a dignified manner, on the other hand, the Iraqi people are making life for the occupying forces rather difficult.
Although the main occupational force in Japan was primarily American, it was NOT solely American, so your 'without any assistance' comment is misguided and incorrect.

I disagree with the general statement of the people of Iraq making life difficult for the occupying forces. Yes there are a few, but it is very limited in scope.

As for countries participating in the Japanese reconstruction - there were others. Limited in scope and impact but there were others. http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/CIB/2002-03/03Cib24.htm is an interesting read. I shouldn't have said we did it alone, but the policy was ours, the lead was our and the responsibility was ours. I put that out there as a direct comparison to the German reconstruction which was a fiasco between the major allied powers which took fourty years to resolve. I'd much rather see the path of Iraq follow Japans then Germany's (the whole east-west split)

Got anything useful to put up against it,or are you just one of those wanky patriots who don't give a shit for the truth as long as you like what you hear?

No, because it's pointless to argue with you. If I were to respond to you I would probably get a response like, "Ah, what the hell do you know you stupid American?! You get all your news from the White House which means it's all bullshit and lies! I get MY news from pessimistic editors from other countries so it must be the truth and full of facts. Blah, Blah, Blah."
:disappoin

Nice of you to try and second-guess my next post.Until you make one with some coherent arguments in it,I don't even know what my response would be.For your information,I do feel that the U.S. media is biased,but not all of it is biased in support of the White House.There is very little dispassionate reporting in any country,you have to look at a variety of sources,preferably including some in countries that are less affected by the issue at hand,in order to form your own opinions.Now,if you are just going to sit there and bag my opinions without bothering to present yours,I will dismiss you as stupid,but it has nothing to do with your country of origin.This is a debating forum....so debate or go away.

This whole clusterfuck is one of the main reasons why i quit the AFROTC at my school. I don't like knowing that I'm just a tool for a moron, doing his every bid.

Unless you're running the show you're just watching it! We're all tools in some way. I love this post!!!

You know......I dont remember ever being as mad as i am right now...I shouldn't be, it's just some dumb people making fun of America. I know it's not the greatest country in the world. But damnit it's my home. Fuck Canada, fuck New Zealand. You dont know what it's like to live here. I support Bush, i support the troops, and i support everything that's going on in the middle east. I get so sick of people insulting the U.S. for the good that were trying to do. So what, if he might have exaggerated what Iraq had, we got that son of a bitch off his seat of power, something that no one else has ever dared try to do, and were doing what no one else have ever tried to do. Were trying to bring peace and prosperity to a country that has the potential but couldn't under Saddam's rule. If these are the best political views you people can come up with then you can all just go to hell, because i guarantee you there are more U.S. supporters here in America than non supporters for the war and Bush. I love this country and all you mother fuckers can shove your god damn views up your ass, because whether you want to believe it or not, were not going to listen to you foreigners.

p.s- Please ban me for good, because i dont' want to be a part of this website anymore.

And you know what Josh, it's people with views like yours that make me feel embarassed to call myself American. :disappoin

Ok, first thing first. I didn’t agree with the USA/Britain’s method on the Irak crisis. I believe this situation could have been resolved diplomatically if we had showed a united front, our discordance in our speeches made Saddam Hussein only stronger and really gave a nasty blow to U.N. It showed that any super power could do what they wanted, without the approval of all the other countries.

Regarding the reasons, let’s not be fouled by the arguments proposed by both sides, the main issue is Iraq’s natural resources. Be sure that France, Russia and Germany were all starting to have agreement with Iraq on who would exploit their oil sites, resolving the crisis peacefully was only a way to keep their future investments. As much as this is sad to say, money is stronger than human life, after all, both heads of the war and anti-war camp, Mr G.W Bush and Mr J. Chirac are thief and should be in prison. The inquiry about the sell of Mr Bush shares of Harken magically disappeared and Mr Chirac is involved in an inquiry about his party financing scam but is untouchable as long as he is president. Worst of all, both have been elected in a strange ways, one with strange miscounting problems, the second as he was the only choice in the second round (right or far right… hum… let me see). Anyway, I think that for both of them, the Iraqi people are only a good way to make their politic on Iraq more acceptable.

But what’s done is done, and we should all shake hands and team up to at least finish this in a “sort of” good way. Personally, I think that at the moment the U.N should take other and send a force with a majority of Muslim belief. This should ease the tension and not be received as a Western occupation. As for the future of the country, keep it as a whole or separate it in different state, that would have to be the Iraqis decision and this decision will have to be respected whatever the way it is going toward. We cannot impose our template of “perfect” nation; the time of colonisation has been finished for a long time now.

Finally, regarding the media coverage of this event, I totally agree with freakray when he says to look at news coming from non-involved country. Trust me as I think the news is pro-us in majority in the USA, I can say it is more anti-us here in France, showing more of the negative side of the events. It’s pretty rare to see proper independent news nowadays.

You know......I dont remember ever being as mad as i am right now...I shouldn't be, it's just some dumb people making fun of America. I know it's not the greatest country in the world. But damnit it's my home. You dont know what it's like to live here. I support Bush, i support the troops, and i support everything that's going on in the middle east. I get so sick of people insulting the U.S. for the good that were trying to do. So what, if he might have exaggerated what Iraq had, we got that son of a bitch off his seat of power, something that no one else has ever dared try to do, and were doing what no one else have ever tried to do. Were trying to bring peace and prosperity to a country that has the potential but couldn't under Saddam's rule. If these are the best political views you people can come up with then you can all just go to hell, because i guarantee you there are more U.S. supporters here in America than non supporters for the war and Bush. I love this country and all you mother fuckers can shove your god damn views up your ass, because whether you want to believe it or not, were not going to listen to you foreigners.


p.s- Please ban me for good, because i dont' want to be a part of this website anymore.



From the top.We're not dumb,and we are not making fun of America.I for one don't think that there's much wrong with it that a half-decent President couldn't fix.
Quickly skipping over the blah blah blah about how good America is being to Iraq[because it's utter bollocks],We come to "Fuck Canada, fuck New Zealand.

Simple question - why?

Come to that ,could you even find New Zealand on a map of the world?I doubt it.I'm even having doubts as to your ability to find Canada.

Next point"If these are the best political views you people can come up with then you can all just go to hell, because i guarantee you there are more U.S. supporters here in America than non supporters for the war and Bush. That rather dependsa on which polls you choose to believe.The only poll that really matters is the Presidental Election next year,and my money is not on Bush.In the meantime,he keeps lying,and G.I.'s keep dying.

I love this country and all you mother fuckers can shove your god damn views up your ass, because whether you want to believe it or not, were not going to listen to you foreigners.

Are you by any chance called Wolfowitz or Rumsfeld?If so,fuck you.



p.s- Please ban me for good, because i dont' want to be a part of this website anymore.
Sorry,but we don't ban people for their opinions here,however odious,ignorant,or poorly expressed those opinions may be.If you don't want to be part of this site any more,just leave.And mind you don't get your flag tangled up on the doorknob.I don't want you to hear me laughing at you for any longer than is neccesary.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I will have to do what i never thought i could do, do in course to my stubborness and say that "I apologize for what i said." Yes i can find those countries on a map... I'm not stupid, and i realize i shouldn't take my having the worst day of my life out on people i dont even know.. I needed something to bitch about, and i wasn't going to start in on my g/f for no reason..... I also agree mostly on what gnasha said. As for the election, there isn't a strong enough democratic candidate for the next election to compete with Bush, so were stuck with him for another four years.... Although sometimes i dont agree on your political views i shouldn't get so uptight about it. Even my cousin (ilike2drivecars) hates america, so i should just get used to those kinds of comments. And freakray, i don't care, because i already showed about 12 people what i posted, and they agree with me, but dont count out their credibility....Especially you Jon (ilike2drivecars), cause you know most of them. Harsh words are no way to argue a cause, i know that, and am very sorry for offending you guys... so consider this my humble apology, i should have said it in lighter terms, and less conviction. I dont hate canada, and like New Zealand for it's beautiful scenery...like i said i had just had the worst day of my life.... So i'm asking forgiveness on this one.

JJ