what I believe...

Well I guess it's time to lay it on the table, to let things out in the open.

What I believe is strongly based on what I feel, for I think that our nature is born from our beginnings. Like all of nature's creations we have instincts, but unlike most others, most are intellectual instincts rather than ones rooted in basic survival. And at our core, we have a need to define who we are and where we come from. Why is this? Why do we feel an inexorable need to transcend the basics of father and mother, to find something greater than that in which we can attach our reasoning to? I believe it's fundamental proof of something larger, that in ourselves is the key to unlocking a mystery that's both unsolvable and, at the same time, part of our basic needs.

Us humans find solice in a higher power, and we find this because it's built in, an instinct if you will. Now you can debate the origins of this until you are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, we have this instinct, this drive, and there's no scientific explanation for it. Of course I submit a different angle, that our instincts toward this goal are driven by it's truth, by the Creator's seed in us all. I myself am on a spritual journey, trying to find my true North (what I call enlightenment).

And this is my reason for being, my core. I have studied the world's religions, the Science, the Bible, the Eastern thought, the Western thought. And through all this I have not found my true North. I feel as though I am a compass, irreversably drawn to a single point, yet unsure of where this is or what lies beyond. I am, at this point, as unsure of things as ever, yet buried deep within is the knowledge that there is one True path, and that all other paths are merely distractions to my journey. So I'd like all of us, the Christians, Athiests, Agnostics and Dualists; share your thoughts on this concept, enlighten us all on your experiences and beliefs (or lack thereof) on this subject. Peace! :)

whoa...that's deep, man

I see what you're saying though...everybody eventually feels best believing what they want to believe, whether it's a higher power or that we can do whatever we want. Everybody thinks that everyone else should share their viewpoint, I'm guilty of it too. But I think you should believe what you yourself want to believe.

Yeah man, I'm on the same page. I often wonder how it is that some people I talk to look at me like I have 6 heads when I try to introduce my thoughts on this subject matter. Do some fail to attempt to analyze their lives and the world we live in? Do they not wonder about who they are and why? And I don't know if I should feel pity or envy for their disposition.

I too have been a little lost since I graduated college. The girl I thought I was supposed to spend the rest of my life with informed me in my last week of college that she had other plans. I think this is when it all started. I kissed her good-bye, and let her walk right out of my life. While now I no longer think she was the one for me, I am on a journey to find where I am supposed to be, and what I am supposed to be doing. For the first time in my life, I did not have a path set out before me. It wasn't you go to high school, and then college... etc. I had a world of freedom at my fingertips, and that's pretty overwhelming considering the options that lay before me. My path may be different than that of many others, but the goal is the same. I want to know, like you said, what my true north is.

I have questioned life, and purpose, and why I am here. This outlook has made me selfish, and I refuse to let much of anyone get close to me, just because I can't stand to think about them or their problems when I am so overwhelmed with my own. It's like you said about finding meaning, about trying to "find something greater than that in which we can attach our reasoning to." Every so often, I am struck by something meaningful, that says something to me, that others often fail to recognize. Many read the book Into the Wild, by Jon Krakauer, and like me found it to be an important and life-shaping work. Believe it or not, seeing the movie Fight Club was also like this for me. Somehow it made sense to me.

I think my big problem is that I look at society, and the world that I live in, and I can not help but wonder why am I supposed to live this way? What makes this correct, and the ways of others somehow estranged by the narrow-minded people one encounters in most walks of our society. I wonder if we have any business getting married, and working jobs from 9 to 5. Somehow there must be more to life than this. These courses of action strike me as ideal for complacent sheep, eager to eak their ways through life, and wake up dead one day, not for the species we have evolved into (sorry, no creationist here).

We started out as nomads, driven by the instinct of survival like all other animals. Look at us. We have removed that survivalist instinct from our lives for the most part. I feel that this may be the route of many of our problems, and why some people who wonder too much are left scratching their heads at the paradigm of convention living. I am finding meaning in pleasure and adrenaline, because at least these are aspects of live that make me feel alive (by the way, tex, where does your love of cars tie into all this? - mine is derived from the rush of going fast, which is better than almost anything else {sex included} to me), now that I don't have mom and dad looking over my shoulder telling me what's right from wrong. I believe that life should be lived by experiencing as much as possible, and that one day, if I can stop seeking and waiting for enlightenment, I will find it. I hope this is coming out all right - I don't think this is exactly what I want to say, it's just intangible and I can't put the feeling into words that serve its true meaning justly.

Is it Hindu tradition that defines Nirvana as the ultimate be-all end-all expression of life? I whole-heartedly agree. But I believe only through a vast array of experiences can this knowledge be acquired. I hope someday it will all make sense.

Testify!!!!!!! :D

I my self am on a path to achieving eternal w00tyness, something that is very difficult to achieve. :)

I'm too a spiritual guy. I belive that each and everyone has some kind of force that leeds him call it the unconcious or whatever but I'll keep searching 'till I understand what it trys to tell me.

I hope you guys will find your North:bandit:

Thats some deep stuff JD and Texan.
I can relate to what both of you are saying, and could even find refrences to some of in it in works by diffrent philosophers, so your not the only ones to have doubts about our society, our roles in it, and what we take as meaning for our lives.
Iv spent a long time thinking about this myself, and while I can agree with some of what others have written I am yet unable to define into writing my own thoughts, partly because of thier rather abstract nature and partly becasue there are still being worked on. I still think im to young (only 23) to rarly understand all that there is in life, so I seek out new experiances, new ways of perciving the world around me, (but no Drugs, I want an undistorted perception), then hopefully when I feel I have added enough experiance I will be able to find away of defining it.

I like your concept of seeking a "True North", however I dont agree with it, I feel it's two religeous in its goal, to seeking of a higher being, or a seeking of infinnite existance. I believe our lives our finnite, when I die im dead, any work I complete may survive, but I the being, the existance, will be gone. All I can do untill that point that I cease to exist is to try and live what I think is the best life possible. (and this in a contridictory way is something im still seeking, (although I feel im close).).

:smoka:

Only one thing to say here, and that's that the concept of "True North" is not religous at all, but faith based. And all belief structures are firmly rooted in faith, whether it be religous, philosophical, or scientific in nature. It's just my way of saying what feels right deep down to our core, like the Tao (the Way). A way of life, a direction, some meaning to it all, whatever. It's all the same thing when you boil it down, none of us can lay claim to being right other than our faith in our belief structure's inherent truth.

And to be devil's advocate, I could say that due to this fact, the more righteously you believe in anything, the crazier you are. I once had a professor named Jerry who published this simple graph called "The Truth and Jerry's Curve". It plotted your sanity level against how strongly you believe you are right about the workings of the universe and existence... the more correct you thought yourself to be the crazier you were :D.

Originally posted by texan
It's all the same thing when you boil it down, none of us can lay claim to being right other than our faith in our belief structure's inherent truth.


So there no absolure truth? And reality is based on our own individual beliefs?

Originally posted by Moppie


So there no absolure truth? And reality is based on our own individual beliefs?

Of course there is absolute truth, at least in a logical sense. That's one of the easiest things to prove logically...

Statement: There is no absolute truth.

If its true: That's a paradox. Then there is at least one absolute truth in this world, the statement itself. So it's still false.

If it's false: Well, it's false, and there is at least one absolute truth in the universe. Either way though, it must exist in the logical universe.


What I am saying is that all belief structures eventually boil down to one point of faith, since all have an untestable hypothesis at their core. In my previous example I mentioned religion, philosophy (most of which is religous in nature, so we'll focus on logic based philosophy), and the sciences. All have basic points of faith that are not provable in the traditional sense of the word...

Religion's faith point: A higher power or underlying force creates and sustains all things.

Logical Philosophy's faith point: Logic can answer all the universes' questions, because it's existence is based upon logic.

the Sciences faith point: All questions can be answered by applying the Scientific Method. In the case of all hard sciences, this is the faith point.

For the sciences, it's a big leap too. The Scientific Method is not logically provable, it's not even a logic statement in basic form. It's simply a belief that if you adhere to a certain way of thinking, all your final hypotheses about the universe will be true.


So this is what I mean... whatever it is you believe, I promise you it's core is a basic point of faith. And to comment on the reality point you brought up, of course there logically must be an objective reality. But whether or not we can ever come into direct contact with it has been debated for over a thousand years, and nobody has come to an agreement about it yet. Personally, I think reality is necessarily a subjective thing, one of the fundamental points of intelligent human life is the realization that we have a picture of our universe, and that picture is only completely true for ourselves. It's not in reaching for an objective reality which shows a person's true understanding of his world, it's in the realization that we all see things from a different viewpoint, and while that viewpoint can't always be seen by others, it can be understood. The truly enlightened person is not one who sees reality in it's objectiveness, but one who understands the limitations and beauty of another's reality. Except for the possibility of Jung's "collective unconscious", I believe we are all islands in an infinitely large sea.

I'm sorry if I back the discussion up a bit, but I wanted to point out the idea addressed in the book/movie Fight Club that our fathers are our models for God. We have pretty much grown up in a generation of absent father-figures. We were on the backside of the baby boom, and that led to a lot of single mothers because of men that weren't ready for families, so they left. And those families that still included the father, miss out on him anyway because typically he works all the time and is never home.

Now, all those, especially young men, that didn't have a father, they don't know what to make of God. God represents a super-father-figure that must not want them either. If they think they are God's unwanted children, then they lose the easiest way to "plug in" to society's rules of right and wrong, to follow the Christian model of good and evil.

I think that few that are like this will find their way out of it. They will be destined to turn out like their (absent) fathers, and to repeat the cycle.

I don't think that turning to God, this Chistian society's God, is the answer. I can only imagine that these folks need a re-socialization to learn how to interact with others ethically and responsibly.

I also don't think the self-destruction, ala Fight Club is the answer, either.

Ok, lets start out here with several faith realizations. For one, I believe the Bible is the most innaccurate book ever written from a historical point of view. There are several things that a lot of hardcore evangelists say that are simply not true. I have been on several digs in AZ, and have seen Carbon dating at work. Its very accurate. Some people dismiss it entirely, and those are the people who are afraid of the truth. I know a lot of harcore jesus heads believe we walked with Dinosaurs. Now let me ask, how so? B/c, if we did, we would be eaten, and not here today. I bet my life savings on it. Second, if that is true, that means Dino's would have to be on Noah's ark. How can dino's co exist with all animals on a ship? It would be total carnage.

There is also great evidence in chaos theory. This is where something can be shot off path by amplified imperfections. Such as golf. You hit the ball in one spot, one direction, and it hits the ground 100m in front of you. But if you hit another one it will not hit the same area. Why? Well the tiny imperfections in the ball, in the club, in the air. All of these small factors become amplified to an extent where it changes everything. Chaos theory is a real theory, and it hit hard in Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton. I think that everything in life can be described using chaos theory, even religion.

Every religions core is ignorance of the masses. Thats all it is. it was created as a tool in controlling the masses of the land, and easing fears and ignorance. It has been used by kings and queens alike to control people, start wars, and invade countries. Its used today as salvation. There is a god, but its a force. I do not take the bible for what it is, I think its rubbish and no good whatsoever. I think that we are here by chance, and chaos theory proves parts of that. One distinct part is the fact that if that large asteroid didn't hit the Yucatan peninsula, then we would not be here. It was that tiny imperfection that amplified and created us. If the dinosaurs were not extinguished by that asteroid we would not be here. But they were, and they evolved, and more organisms evolved, and eventually he we are. Do you see how we were created like the dinosaurs as an imperfection that was magnified? Its fairly deep in understanding from my point of view.

Dinohunter- I have heard that speech before (the basic idea anyways), I have given that speech in my past to others. But that was before I started studying philosophy and other subjects, and before I had any idea what I was talking about concerning Christianity. Now I'm not going to attack your position because it's sharing your beliefs that I wanted in this thread, but I would like to point a few things out.

1) The Bible was not written to contain historical fact, it's a philosophy book, not a history book. Some of the history the Bible speaks of is fact, some is most likely pure fiction intended to simply help the authors in getting a point across. But yes, I do agree that if it's seen as a history book, it's not one of the better ones.

2) Religion's core is not ignorance, it's faith just as I said earlier. Faith like you have for evolutionary theory, faith in the Scientific Method. Perhaps it's a different flavor of faith, but it's no less respectable than your own.

3) Religion was not created to control the masses. That's ridiculous, and we both know it. It's a way of explaining our own existence and that of the universe's, to give direction and meaning to life and sometimes to provide a template for living.


All I want to state, before this becomes a debate between religion and science again, is that there is more than one viewpoint, and at least a little bit of validity to all. Science certainly can't explain everything as of yet, and the Scientific Method will never be able answer the really interesting questions. Logic might be able to, but what if the universe doesn't run on logic 100% of the ime? Or what if there is a higher power? What is it's nature, and is it sentient? Science most certainly can't grasp that concept, lest it be easily quantifyable and explainable through mathematics. Likewise though, if the world just ran on religion, well that would suck. No computers, no understanding of much of our world's inner workings, and the worst of all bad things... no central air in houses!


And as one last thing, I would remind you Dinohunter that people have done horrible things in the name of science just as people have done with religion. That does not make either pursuit any less noble, it simply reflects man's imperfection and should be seen as such. Never dismiss a belief system because wayward individuals perverted it to their own liking.

Here are some arguments:

1- The Bible was indeed written to describe the history of the Earth and how they believe it was created. There is evidence in this by how they describe these things, and how its taught in Catholic school (i went there for several years:rolleyes: ). They teach it as a science (mostly) and many people, I will dare to say a good majority take it literally. Thus presenting itself as a history book.

2- Religion, in its earliest form, was used to stop ignorance. Its is incredibly evident in the Norse, Egyptian, Greek, Aztek, Mayan, Incan, Native American, and pretty much EVERY Single religion thats known to man. Some have evolved however and focuse away from that to faith, like Christianity is now.

3- There is evidence in Egypt this was used to control the masses. There is evidence in the area surrounding Thebes (modern day Luxor) of riots before there was an official religion, and Egypt seemed to calm down after this. Remember during the Dark Ages, the Pagans were not controlled, yet the Christians were moved at will by a pope. This was shown in the Crusades as well, when the Pope, at his will, waged war. Thus controlling the masses.

About your other arguments, sure science can't be the cure-all, but can religion? Certainly not. As I have put it before (maybe not here though) religion is the why, science is the how (in life). Its a very simple explanation. Where I get irritated is where people blend them together, taking religion for more than it is worth, and science the same way.

And BTW, science I believe answers more questions now than religion does. In a study done by Drexel University, the higher educated peoples are more agnostic than religious. This is also demonstrated in Einstein abandoning his religion. Does this show anything? In ways it does, but it also shows people are thinking more today, and wanting to find the answers through science, and what is real (at least scientifically).

I myself use the Chaos theory in many many situations, and it works. Anything unexplainable can be rooted back to that theory.

Originally posted by Dinohunter

I myself use the Chaos theory in many many situations, and it works. Anything unexplainable can be rooted back to that theory.

please enlighten us with an example?


You both made good points about religion, but Dinohunter, by doing so you only reinforced Texans point about seeing things from a diffrent perspective. I went to a strong prespertarian school, and was given quite a diffrent take on Christian thought.
Texan and I see the Bible as a book of philosophical ideas, you see it as a book detailing the history of the world. Its the same book, (basicly) but we all look at from a diffrent angle, and see in it diffrent things. (look at all the diffrent groups out there who claim to be Christian, thier all reading the same book).

posted by TexanAnd to comment on the reality point you brought up, of course there logically must be an objective reality. But whether or not we can ever come into direct contact with it has been debated for over a thousand years, and nobody has come to an agreement about it yet. Personally, I think reality is necessarily a subjective thing, one of the fundamental points of intelligent human life is the realization that we have a picture of our universe, and that picture is only completely true for ourselves. It's not in reaching for an objective reality which shows a person's true understanding of his world, it's in the realization that we all see things from a different viewpoint, and while that viewpoint can't always be seen by others, it can be understood. The truly enlightened person is not one who sees reality in it's objectiveness, but one who understands the limitations and beauty of another's reality.


I happen to agree totatly, however im curious as to how you came to this conclusion? Its talked about in many diffrent philosophys, and Im always looking for overlaps in ideas between diffrent lines of thought.

I've come to that and many other conclusions through philosophy, I created my own belief structure awhile back when I was a Philosophy major. Of course it's still constantly changing and I think I've generated more new questions than I have answered, but this is a journey, not a destination.

As a side note, I also think philosophy is horribly overlooked in the school systems. By my way of thinking, it's the single most important and noble field of study one can pursue.

Chaos thoery was popularized by the book and movie Jurassic Park. So I am going to use one of their examples as common ground so-to-speak. Start off with a pool ball. Any color (but black). Put it in the middle. Now line it up exactly with white ball so that you can creat a line splitting the table in half long-wise. Hit the ball. Mark where it went, and where the balls were initially. Now hit the same ball, in the same position, and I guarantee it won't go to the same place. Thats Chaos theory. Its where the imperfections are amplified. In this case the surface of the ball may have dings or cracks, the table may be uneven, the felt fibers might be denser in one area than another. See how a tiny imperfection can turn everything askew?

Now to a real time example. I believe I used this already, but its a very good one. Look back on the mass extinction of the dinosaurs. If they did not die like they did, its a very good chance we would not be here. They still would be. But nature selected them to die, thus creating us in the long run. See how that imperfection (the extinction) amplifies into a larger substance (us)?

The Bible is indeed a book of philosophies, but I take it from the point of view where a lot of the people take it from. I have seen a lot of people said everything in the Bible happened, I can even point you to threads on the net that say it did. That disturbs me. Its not the faith. Its the gullibility of the subject. I mean you guys take the good book as a philosophical book, correct? They take it as a history book. So I like to take that vatange point.

Another good example of Chaos theory is a car in high winds (turbulence). Anything in turbulence shifts randomly. Just take a look at a water spout. Speed it up and you can see the water shifting in total randomness. But with a car, you can feel it work, see the Antenna shift in all certain ways, parts rattle. Turbulence is another key part in chaos theory. A way turbulence can also be used is in a political sense. Nobody expected Newt Gingrich to step down. But under the turbulent forces he did. See where I am getting to? A lot of the unexplained can be explained in atleast parts by chaos theory. And once you get by the basic terms your fine with it. Oh yeah, the biggest example is weather and the Butterfly effect. Weather in Philadelphia is always different than weather in Moscow at any given time. Both on other sides of the world, or on different "wings".

I hope that helps!

Originally posted by texan
I've come to that and many other conclusions through philosophy, I created my own belief structure awhile back when I was a Philosophy major. Of course it's still constantly changing and I think I've generated more new questions than I have answered, but this is a journey, not a destination.

As a side note, I also think philosophy is horribly overlooked in the school systems. By my way of thinking, it's the single most important and noble field of study one can pursue.

The most powerful force man has wielded is thought. People can be hurt, people can be saved, people can be killed, people can be created (naturally..). Once we began to think there was no turning back. Thought is a way to discover but also to grow, and can change something so easily its often considered part of Chaos Theory.

Originally posted by Dinohunter


The most powerful force man has wielded is thought. People can be hurt, people can be saved, people can be killed, people can be created (naturally..). Once we began to think there was no turning back. Thought is a way to discover but also to grow, and can change something so easily its often considered part of Chaos Theory.

Absolutely. I remember when I was studying it (and BTW, I didn't go that far in college, I got tired of it and just went with my career, plus I was only going for education and not a better job) people always asked what the hell good a Philo degree would bring me. Questions like that always made me laugh, people trying to figure out how your degree can help you earn more money in a new career. All I told them was that I would use it every moment of every day, since I was studying how to think and how some of the world's greatest minds thought. That always shut them up too, they realized in a sudden flash there's more to education than jobs if that's what you are looking for. And personalyl I think higher learning for the sake of a better career is often stupid, the whole point of learning is to be better and smarter in all things. Which is why philosophy is the #1 subject in my book, I had to pay my own way during school and damned if I wasn't going to really learn somthing important when I was there.

Also, here's my explanation of Chaos Theory...

Wherever there is motion or activity, there are seemingly chaotic events occuring at unpredictable rates and in unpredictable ways. Science has long ignored the cause of these systems and just chalked them up to chaotic and random motion, such as turbulence in water and it's seemingly random nature. However, back in the 80's a new mathematical theory was posed claiming that all seemingly random and chaotic events were simply events of extremely complex organization, hence they took out the chaos and randomness of everything. If one can understand the higher complexity of organization present, one can understand chaotic activities as a predictable and possibly managable way. Now chaos theory remains the domain of scientists and mathematacians for the most part, but it also spawned complexity theory and that leads to all sorts of things...

Complexity theory
There is no simple definition to complexity theory, other than the idea that most things in our universe do not act on the principles by which we would like them to. People want to see interaction in all things on a simple, linear and cause-effect type scale, but most often this is not the case (which is part ofthe reason I think we are so bad at predicting the future). According to complexity theory, things occur due to complex, non-linear reactions, a holistic approach to understanding if you will. And most of the field of study which is really interesting involves organic model study, where it's interaction between living things in a system which define the actions of that system. A good example of this is how a person interacts with their world vs. how a group of people interacting with their world. Now we've all been in a large crowd before, and interestingly event though it's made up of individuals, it doesn't even closely resemble how a person thinks or acts. The so-called mob mentality, where decisions are made by sweeping order of the crowd and often the actions taken as a result are in no way similar to how a single person would have reacted. Why is this? Because the rules have changed, the complex interactions present in the crowd follow a basic rule book that isn't the same as a single person's rules in interacting with the same world. And interestingly, a group's different set of rules can also lead to achievment above and beyond what any of it's constiuent parts are capable of, so to put it simply... change the rules of a system and you change it's limitations.

And that's just one small example of complexity theory. This field of study reaches into computer development, sociology, economics, probably every field of study in existence. And truly, both theories deal more with philosophy than anything else, the idea that all things are examples of some level of order is the same as that of all philosophers... logic dictates all things, so in any logical system everything can potentially be understood. It's all in finding the correct viewpoint, where the unexplainable becomes easily understandable.


I know this is getting long too, but I wanted to pose one more theory here. I think a good part of the reason ideas like this have taken so long to gain foothold and acceptance is actually due to the rise of Bible based schools of worship (I'll include any basic sampling of the Old Testament here too, so Judaism and Muslim worhsip also fall into this category). As a system of belief should, the Bible actually molds the way in which we view reality, especially since there is a single Creator who makes all the rules. In the Bible's system, time is perfectly linear, all rules are made by an individual, and all interactions are simple in nature as they are largely the result of interaction with that Creator or His rules. Infinity is similarly ignored in Bible based systems, since there is a clear beginning and end to all things besides the Creator. I was wondering awhile back why our concept of infinity was still in it's infancy, and why complex levels of interaction in systems are just now being explored. Also I wondered why viewpoints in the semi-modern world that challenged those of Catholicism and Christianty were so long in being adopted, such as the non helio-centric universe to give an example. If you have a hard time believing that a belief structure gives rise to you entire world viewpoint (even on a scientific scale), just look to the past to see ideas which make perfect sense being rejected by nearly everyone because they don't fall nicely inline with the established religous belief. In contrast, societies like the Mayan and Egyptian show a much greater understanding of mathematics, engineering, astrological movement and time measurement. Why? Because they were not bound by the same belief rules most of our ancestors were, so they were free to acheive such scientific advancement at a greater rate. Hell, their knowledge was even lost (or mostly lost) regarding these principles due to Bible worship.

Exactly correct Texan. Chaos theory is almost like a rogue in the world of physics and math, and IMO, still not accepted by leading scholars. I myself see it as one of the best theory's to come out of the 20th century. It enables us to think with more accuracy, like in distinct measurements. Where it states that no measurement can be infinitely precise yet only finite. It shows a more realistic view to other theories and thoughts displayed in that era.

On the situation of growth inside a religion. Yes, Chrisitianity from my viewpoint limits science, thought itself, ideaology, and growth. Thats what is very very bad about it. Yes it makes up for it in faith, but is it worth it? To some people I guess it is, but to me, certainly not. I want a blend. Of faith, of science, of understanding, and of thought. In the world of the bible, they account for everything in linear thought. When it clearly shows that not only is there linear thought and happenings in the universe, there is also non-linear, or chaotic happenings as well. This theory is a major backstop in many agnostic debates, and a very credible one as well. I myself have used it here, and will continue to use it elsewhere. I think its a very solid theory, and in many many scholars minds will be proven fact or law within the next decade. I started philosophizing b/c of this theory, and I have gained an icredible amount of knowledge b/c of it. I think that in the upcoming years this could spell the end for many religious beliefs, simply b/c of how powerful thought is.

I just couldn't hold my self back.... wanted to stick this in here:

"Ignorance is a blessing"

I very much agree with this.

Ignorance is bliss.

PS
I am the most powerful force.

Wow, this is a pretty deep topic. I can relate to alot of what has been said, and the general theme is a feeling of being lost or searching for something. Ive been through Catholic schooling myself, and Ive read a few books on Eastern thought/religion, but I am no expert in either subject. I have thought about this subject alot, its as though everyday is spent grasping for that one "truth" or the one "true meaning of life" that we have been conditioned to believe exists.

I am now married and have a baby daughter who is two months old, and the search for that meaning has faded some, Ive become occupied with other things. So here is a thought Ive had, maybe the fact that we can not find that one truth, or our North as was said earlier, is simply for the fact that we are looking for something that does not exist? How can you find something that you have no concept of, and only an assembly of assumptions or ideas of? That means you may be looking for something that resembles an apple, but the whole time it was a small pebble. Well, I dont know if that made any sense to anyone, but I wanted to wiegh in on this topic. At the very least, this thread definitely makes you think.

Oh, and to add to some of the media listed (Fight Club, Bible, etc.) check out the book Ishmael, Im not exactly sure of the author. It has some interesting ideas about culture and society, and even some bible references.

I agree to an extent about what you've stated in reference to "one true North." However, I think its intangibility is what makes it so special and worth seeking (or rather finding, in a more true to Zen sense). I think the idea of enlightenment is just about having a shining moment of understanding, where things become clear and focused. I don't think that if you experience such a moment, you will live the rest of your days with everything in plain site. I think that it will be just fleeting moments of understanding, and with that understanding, inner peace. I have read about it many times. And I know I for one, even though I may sound like I have specific expectations, do not, really. I'm just anxious to be experienced (taking a cue here from Jimi Hendrix).

Just remember that Jimis idea of being experianced is what ultimatly killed him.
For me ultimate experiance has to be clean, uncorupted, and as real as objective my individual perception will allow.

IMO I do not think it was drugs that killed Jimi, it was how he used them. If you use them in moderation they could achieve the goal of nirvana, but anymore could kill you. Its always a risk, how calculated it is.

Originally posted by IanMalcolm
IMO I do not think it was drugs that killed Jimi, it was how he used them

G read Noel Reddings book (he was the bass player), Im pretty sure it was the Drugs which killed him.
Anything in moderation will kill you anyway, simply breathing is a sure way to inhance your death.

But I think if your looking for Nirvana then trying to find it with drugs, will not give you the true Nirvana, but merely a distorted view on reality. Drugs are for escaping the everyday, and mundane (untill they become the everyday, and the mundane) but I believe finding your direction in life, or Nirvana or Ture north invovles facing and dealing with your life, not tying to escape it.

Like many of you, I'm still searching for what I believe is the meaning of my life. I expect that it will probably be completely different from the 'findings' of others, because we're all very different. We've come from different communities, we were all raised very differently, and the people we've met and experiences we've had are all different (though many were probably shared, with or without that knowledge). We've all taken very different paths, so I wouldn't expect my 'true north' to be exactly the same as anyone else's.

Though I don't see myself as the 'ignorance is bliss' type, I try not to let it be too consuming. While I pity those who never think about this kind of thing, I think it shouldn't be too great a part of my life. I want to know, but I don't want to spend too much time searching and trying to understand that I miss out on the life I'm trying to understand. But what concerns me most isn't finding what I'm searching for. I may never find it, but as far as I'm concerned, I may be better off NOT finding it.

What bugs me most is the possibility that after all the effort I may put into discovering the meaning of my life, it may not even be what I expect, or it may dissappoint me. Many expect it to be some great revelation that is going to change their life for the better. I would certainly hope that would be the case, not that I need any justification or anything. But I would certainly feel let down if it wasn't an incredibly event. I couldn't say whether or not I would be happy having found 'the answer'.

And even more than that, what is there to look forward to when you have 'the answer'? "The thing that drives us is the question". When there are no more questions, what is left? Are we elevated in our newfound enlightenment in some way that we now achieved a higher level of being? Or will the sense of completeness be the only discernable result of the entire journey?

This is one thing that I try not to think about. It's one thing I would have to face at some point, since I'm already on that journey, but in the back of my mind I know that this occasion may come. I just don't want to hype it up to be something that it's not.

:shrug:

At least I still have questions. :)

IMO it's the search for our 'true noth' not to find it what we're spending our life for. Otherwise I don't think the human race will last very much longer if we don't start another way of thinking. Now some of you maybe say that's very pesimistic but IMO it's mmore realistic. It wont affect us maybe we even last another thousand years but when I look at the world and what's happening on it there're a lot of things I don't like and I often think how some people can stay so ignorant and blind not seeing that it can't go on like this. e.g. the Israel crisis (I'm an Israelian) there are so much losses on both sides and still there are extrems (on both sides) who go on teaching theire childs that the other are the true bad although they know that ion fact this teaching is destroing the future of theire childs and wont make it any better!
I'm a very peaceful guy but I think it's pretty shitty when people close there eyes and go on with the mistakes they made and never even try to change something.

Where ya been, Bean?