How to choose the right turbo!

I have seen a lot of misconceptions about turbo systems on this board in the very short time I have been lurking!

1. Choosing the correct Turbo Setup
One must sit back and decide what he/she is planning on doing to thier car! Are you a Road Racer? Drag Racer? Auto Crosser? All of these will determine what turbo is right for you!

2. Desired HP
This is a very important aspect of choosing a turbo. Do you want a Monster 500+ hp car? Do you want a 200 hp Street driven car? Do you want a 250-300 hp Street/Strip Car? Do you want 200-225 hp for Auto Crossing/Road Racing?

3. Lag or No Lag
This will determine what turbo you go with. Do you want big power and little lag? Sure, no problem, just make sure you have some $$$$$ for a ball bearing center section! Do you want your power band down low or up top?

4. $$$$$
How much do you want to spend? Are you trying to be a "Low Buck Brawler"? Do you have a money tree in the back yard?:D Are you on a budget?

Now I will go a little in depth!

Turbo Setups-

1. Bluebird T25, Bluebird Manifold, Bluebird J-Pipe, 370cc Injectors
This is one of the *LEAST* Expensive routes to go when turbocharging! You can usually pick up a used setup for $500.00-$800.00 depending on the condition of the components! This will net you somewhere inthe 200-215 whp range! The stock wastegate is set at 7 psi. This setup pretty much maxes out @ about 10-12 psi. At these boost levels the efficiency drops dramtically. The 370cc injectors are only good for about 230-235 whp. At this point the stock DE/DET MAF is maxed out also @ about 5.12V. This setup is great for someone wanting to turbocharge on a *Budget* (NOT CHEAP)! This setup will be ideal for Autocrossers/Roadracers! Quick spool, but falls off up top!

2. GTiR T28, GTiR Manifold, GTiR J-Pipe, 370cc or 440cc Injectors
This is a very good Street/Strip setup that most people oversee! The T28 is capable of producing 300hp! Ideally, 250-275 whp is very attainable with this setup! You can get this setup for about $750.00-$900.00 used, depending on condition or you can get these parts brand new for about $1400.00-$1500.00. The 370cc injectors max out at 230-235 whp so in order to produce 250-300 whp, you must either use the 440cc injectors or get MSD 50 lb/hr injectors. The stock DE/DET MAF will also top out past 230 whp, so you will need a Cobra MAF. This is great for Autocrossing/Roadracing! This is a *GREAT* setup for the occasional Drag Racer. This setup has quick spool with great top end.

3. Hotshot Turbo Kit
This setup comes with a Stainless steel manifold, T3 Turbo, 370cc injectors, Deltagate Wastegate, 2.5" Downpipe and HKS 15"x5.5"x2.5" Intercooler. This setup is great for Street/Strip cars. This kit is overlooked often by the SR20 Community. Personally, I think it is a great kit for the occasional Drag Racer. It spools up somewhere in the 2500 rpm range and should create full boost in the 3000-3200 rpm range! The T3 turbo is capable of producing 300 whp! This kit produces 225-235 whp right out of the box, but has potential! If you go with the MSD 50 lb/hr injectors and Cobra MAF, you can easily accomplish 300 whp! The price isn' t that bad either ~$3299.00. great for Autocrossing/Roadracing.

4. FMAX Stage I
The setup comes with a Log Style manifold, T3/T04E turbo, 370cc injectors, deltagate wastegate, 2.5" downpipe and Spearco 24"x6.5"x3.5" intercooler. This kit is a good Street/Strip kit. Occasional drag racers would like this kit. It can produce 225-240 whp. The T3/T04E is one of the most common turbochargers used in the import aftermarket! This kit spools about 2800 rpms and has full boost around 3500-3800 depending on trims! I wouldn't recommend this kit to Autocrossers/Roadracers!

5. FMAX Stage II & III
This setup comes with everything that the Stage I kit comes with except these kits come with MSD 50 lb/hr injectors or 72 lb/hr injectors with a choice of 3 bar or 4 bar fuel programming with the 50 lb/hr injectors. The 3 bar 50 lb/hr injector program is good for about 300-325 whp! The 4 bar 50 lb/hr injector program *requires* an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator and is good for about 350-420 whp. The 72 lb/hr injector program has been able to support 525+ whp! The Stage II & III kit come with a Cobra MAF! You also have the option of Water Injection and a ball bearing center section turbo! These kits are ideal for Drag Racing/Street Cars! There have been numerour 350-400 whp street driven vehicles with these kits!

A couple of points I did forget to mention would be additional components required for turbocharging a vehicle:

1. Clutch - You will need a clutch that can support your desired HP *AND* Desired use! A drag racer might want a 6 puck clutch to hold the power, but a road racer may want a nice engagement of a full faced disc.

2. Ignition - The factory ignition can only support about 250 whp. Anything thereafter must be supported by an aftermarket ignition such as an MSD 6A or Digital 6.

3. Motor - I would hope no one would over look this , but I know that there is that 10% somewhere that will just throw a turbo on a car with 150K miles and has never done a compression test or leak down test! Make sure your motor is able to handle the stress of a turbo and make sure that regular maintenance has been done!

I hope this helps!

Originally posted by APEXSER
I have seen a lot of misconceptions about turbo systems on this board in the very short time I have been lurking!...
<snip>
I hope this helps!

Nice summary Louis. You should cross-post that to the SE-R list as well.

This has all been covered here before, multiple times. It's never been in one place before though. Hopefully it will help some folks get started with research.

The one thing you ommitted (although I know where it fits and know you do to, but others may not) was the BB DET itself.

FWIW folks, it still fits with #1. So why go DET? To replace a high mileage engine and/or minimize some of the mechanical complexity (for some) of figuring out how to run water and oil lines to and from the turbo.

Thank you for adding that George! Actually, I was going to do another write up on "To DET or NOT?" ! I will get that started sometime this afternoon! I will try to explain the differences in the (2) DET's; Bluebird & GTiR!

please do. It is very helpful information for those of us who would like to get into that type of stuff

Great write-up! The only thing I had a question on was the T25 setup... You mentioned it would be good for road racers and autocrossers. However, with a raod racing car, wouldn't you want really good top end, rather than mid range power? I'd think lag would almost be your friend.. as with too much mid range power, coming out of turns you'd get wheelspin if you got on the gas due to the mid range power?
Kinda like with Terry's setup, and how he gets really bad wheelspin in the lower gears, but people with bigger turbos don't have it quite so bad, as their turbos don't hit till higher in the rpms? Make sense?

What about the ecu, I know for max performance you would have to get one reprogramed or an new one all together but can you use the turbo with a stock ecu and be ok or would you mess something up? Also what about the 2k+ models will any of these turbo's work on them or are we just out of luck untill someone can come up with something?

Originally posted by JustinP10
Great write-up! The only thing I had a question on was the T25 setup... You mentioned it would be good for road racers and autocrossers. However, with a raod racing car, wouldn't you want really good top end, rather than mid range power? I'd think lag would almost be your friend.. as with too much mid range power, coming out of turns you'd get wheelspin if you got on the gas due to the mid range power?
Kinda like with Terry's setup, and how he gets really bad wheelspin in the lower gears, but people with bigger turbos don't have it quite so bad, as their turbos don't hit till higher in the rpms? Make sense?

I am no expert on Road Racing , that is for sure, but I do know from what *I* have seen at tracks like Button Willow, a high hp vehicle with an FMAX kit would have too much power. I know that was the case with Mike Mager a couple of years ago. The power would kick in so harsh he ended up breaking his tranny. I think the T25 would be a *great* road course turbo! Great for the straights, great for quick acceleration or passing, and quick spool out of the turns. A T25 will have very good mid range power! The T25 will more than likely not make more than 220 hp, so you won't have this surge of power out of teh corners. *I* think it would be great! The T25 is very predictable in the power band! I have a hard time imagining a T25 breaking some Road Race tires loose, especially when they are warmed up!

Louis, would you mind if I put this on G20.net? Of course you'd get credit for writing it. :D

Originally posted by gdalton
What about the ecu, I know for max performance you would have to get one reprogramed or an new one all together but can you use the turbo with a stock ecu and be ok or would you mess something up? Also what about the 2k+ models will any of these turbo's work on them or are we just out of luck untill someone can come up with something?

I failed to add that into the whole Spectrum! All of the Aftermarket kits come with a JWT ECU.

91-93 Sentra SE-R/NX2000/G20
94-97 Sentra SE-R/200SX SE-R
94-96 G20

Any 98-up car will have to re-pin a 95-97 200SX SE-R or in the G20's case, a 94-96 ECU and use that.

You can use an FMU, but I would *NOT* recommend that on one of our cars!

You can also use an aftermarket Stand Alone Engine management system, but If you are inquiring about a turbo setup and don't completely understand the concept, then you shouldn't even try to attempt to program a Stand Alone!

Originally posted by G-Forces
Louis, would you mind if I put this on G20.net? Of course you'd get credit for writing it. :D

I have no problem with that! Maybe I/You should clean it up a little before you use it on the site!

Originally posted by APEXSER


I have no problem with that! Maybe I/You should clean it up a little before you use it on the site!
Sure thing I'll give you a URL of the initial draft and we can go from there.

Originally posted by APEXSER


The T25 will more than likely not make more than 220 hp, so you won't have this surge of power out of teh corners. *I* think it would be great! The T25 is very predictable in the power band! I have a hard time imagining a T25 breaking some Road Race tires loose, especially when they are warmed up!

Yeah, good point. I do remember the post about the high hp SE-R, but I thought that was Ryan's car in the FWD, RWD, AWD shootout, regardless of who it was, I know what you're saying. I was also thinking about street tires... race slicks would help with wheelspin tremendously. Thanks

I was just thinking about Shawn Neilson's car vs. Terry's, as Terry's classic will break the wheels loose in second no problem, Shawn's car wouldn't start to boost quite so soon, and he seemed to be able to get more traction in second, even though he had more hp (i'm guessing, as he has the bigger turbo setup?) Thanks!

Justin

Where can I get the Bluebird T25 setup? And how do you re-pin your ecu harness?

95-97 SR ecus will only work with 99 G20s.

Originally posted by gdalton
Where can I get the Bluebird T25 setup? And how do you re-pin your ecu harness?

You can usually pick up a used Bluebird Turbo Setup for $500.00 - $750.00 depending on condition. You can usually find a setup at:

www.se-r.net
www.sr20deforum.com
www.sentra.net
www.thepartstrader.com

Right now I have a used Bluebird setup (T25, Manifold, J-Pipe, & 370cc Injectors) that I am selling for $750.00.

I believe JWT has a diagram as to which wires need to be repinned and to what location!

You rock man thanks.:D

Originally posted by G-Forces

Sure thing I'll give you a URL of the initial draft and we can go from there.


Just let me know!

Louis

Originally posted by APEXSER
3. Hotshot Turbo Kit
This setup comes with a Stainless steel manifold <snip> It spools up somewhere in the 2500 rpm range and should create full boost in the 3000-3200 rpm range! The T3 turbo is capable of producing 300 whp!

See this where I kind of wanted to go. 300 easy wheel hp with the turbo mounted under the manifold but I wanted a turbo that could handle 300 hp at the wheels at about 80% of the turbo capacity. Would this still be a good setup? What percentage of its performance potential would this turbo be running at 300whp?

Originally posted by G-Forces

See this where I kind of wanted to go. 300 easy wheel hp with the turbo mounted under the manifold but I wanted a turbo that could handle 300 hp at the wheels at about 80% of the turbo capacity. Would this still be a good setup? What percentage of its performance potential would this turbo be running at 300whp?

You can get the T3 with the .63 A/R Housing w/ Stage III Turbine and Super 60 compressor housing & wheel and it *should* be able to support pretty close to 300 hp. You are looking right around ~280-285 realistically! If you go with the .82 A/R housing, it will be a little laggier, but it will insure that you hit 300 hp. The .63 housing is ideal for the street! It would be a great turbo. You can also get the exhaust housing Extrude Honed to help spool! At 10 psi, you should be able to make 225-240 hp. You will need the Cobra MAF though and 50 lb/hr injectors. Let me know when you are interested in getting the kit! I can try and eithe rpiece one together for less or get you the best price on the kit. I don't particularly care for the Bosch BOV and HKS Front mont intercooler that the kit comes with! I can possibley get you a better price on a different intercooler. Have you considered the GTiR setup on your car? The T28 along with some 50 lb/hr injectors, Cobra MAF, Walbro Pump, and Larg intercooler will be *NASTY* on the street!

well done :D

Originally posted by APEXSER
Have you considered the GTiR setup on your car? The T28 along with some 50 lb/hr injectors, Cobra MAF, Walbro Pump, and Larg intercooler will be *NASTY* on the street!
Thanks. I'm considering a LOT of things right now. ;) GTi-R is one of them. Just doing the basic swap for now and that should hold me for a bit then getting the 50lbs, Cobra MAF and bigger intercooler later. Although I'd probably spring for a decent FMIC right off the bat with the GTi-R motor. I know it's more but...it's damn sweet!

Originally posted by lloyd_nickens
please do. It is very helpful information for those of us who would like to get into that type of stuff

Try finding the December issue of Sport Compact Car. :D

Originally posted by gdalton
What about the ecu, I know for max performance you would have to get one reprogramed or an new one all together but can you use the turbo with a stock ecu

Let's see.... How can I put this properly?........

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Originally posted by APEXSER
I am no expert on Road Racing , that is for sure, but I do know from what *I* have seen at tracks like Button Willow, a high hp vehicle with an FMAX kit would have too much power. I know that was the case with Mike Mager a couple of years ago. The power would kick in so harsh he ended up breaking his tranny.

While I wouldn't exactly call myself an expert, road racing is my arena and I think the problem is not so much the power, but how it's used. You can't just mash the throttle on a road course, you have to feed it in as the tires have traction available.

That said, I don't think the chassis are able to handle that much power very well other than in a straight line, so in a way I'm agreeing with you, but not totally.

Originally posted by APEXSER
I think the T25 would be a *great* road course turbo! Great for the straights, great for quick acceleration or passing, and quick spool out of the turns. A T25 will have very good mid range power! The T25 will more than likely not make more than 220 hp, so you won't have this surge of power out of teh corners. *I* think it would be great! The T25 is very predictable in the power band! I have a hard time imagining a T25 breaking some Road Race tires loose, especially when they are warmed up!

I think the T28 or T3 would be a little better. Basically, you don't want to run out of breath at high rpm like the T25 does. Other than that, keeping lag to an absolute minimum is very important. You want to know when the power is coming on, else you can end up losing traction and possibly spinning or worse.

Originally posted by G-Forces

See this where I kind of wanted to go. 300 easy wheel hp with the turbo mounted under the manifold but I wanted a turbo that could handle 300 hp at the wheels at about 80% of the turbo capacity. Would this still be a good setup? What percentage of its performance potential would this turbo be running at 300whp?

Jason, you want the turbo that Rob Cadle spec'd for Ray Kawski. It's based upon a T28, but much better. Totally kick ass. It uses a GTi-R manifold.

Originally posted by P10DET


Jason, you want the turbo that Rob Cadle spec'd for Ray Kawski. It's based upon a T28, but much better. Totally kick ass. It uses a GTi-R manifold.

The only thing different is the Compressor housing! Rob Cadle likes to use the T04B compressor housing from the S14 turbo and put it on the GTiR turbo! That is it!

Originally posted by APEXSER


The only thing different is the Compressor housing! Rob Cadle likes to use the T04B compressor housing from the S14 turbo and put it on the GTiR turbo! That is it!
As long as it fits under the manifold I'm cool with it. I don't like the configuration of the F-max kit. To obvious if you know what I mean.

Originally posted by P10DET


Jason, you want the turbo that Rob Cadle spec'd for Ray Kawski. It's based upon a T28, but much better. Totally kick ass. It uses a GTi-R manifold.
I don't know the specifics of Ray's turbo but I know I'd like the turbo that was spec'd for the B15 turbo that Mike helped build. It might be the same one but 300whp is about all I'm looking at.

At this point I'm thinking of a straight GTi-R swap (I know, I know) then adding the injectors, fuel rail, MAF, tuning in a second stage for about 300whp.

But plans change like the wind so this might change in a couple weeks.

Does the Blue Bird setup work on 2000+ G20s? The reason I ask this is because of the differences in 99 and lower SR20DEs's and the newer SR20DE's.

It would fit fine. Working out the ECU problem is probably the biggest hurdle.

how would you be able to jump that hurdle? And also, has G20.net been updated at all? just wondering.

Originally posted by slickkedar
how would you be able to jump that hurdle? And also, has G20.net been updated at all? just wondering.
Err um, well you see, it's like this....ummm, no! Sorry guys I havent' gotten around to it. I should have a Nology installation, test and feedback page soon. There is still a lot to do but haven't gotten around to it. :(

I am also aware that I would have to upgrade my auto with Level 10 parts. But would I need a Performance Automatic Transmission (the full custom one that cost like 2k) or would I just need a Performance Transmission System™ Kit (the one pictured below). I would be using the bluebird set up and wouldnt be going past 225hp.

forgot 2 atach pic

Originally posted by P10DET

FWIW folks, it still fits with #1. So why go DET? To replace a high mileage engine and/or minimize some of the mechanical complexity (for some) of figuring out how to run water and oil lines to and from the turbo.

So what is considered a "high mileage" engine to replace?

Originally posted by Blue94G20T


So what is considered a "high mileage" engine to replace?

I would consider "High Mileage" to be 80,000+ miles on the engine!

Originally posted by APEXSER


I would consider "High Mileage" to be 80,000+ miles on the engine!

Thanks Louis and great write up. Very helpful.

Doesnt anyone know about the auto???

You might find something here:
http://www.gonzonx.com/articles/sccnx.html

He's got a turbo'd SR20VE with an automatic upgraded by Level10.

What is this J-Pipe you speak of with the GTi-R turbo setup?

And also, I see that the complete SR20DET engines(from the Bluebird, for example) come with equipment not included in the turbo packages(like oil-to-water oil coolers and sodium filled valves and lower compression pistons and "oil squirters"). It seems that these items are present to make the engine run better and also to prevent overheating or other problems associated with driving an engine hard. Can this equipment be added to a U.S.-spec SR20DE?

I'm thinking that trying to do so may drive the price up to the point where just getting a JDM engine is a better idea.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. How does one adjust the boost level? With the ECU?

Originally posted by kheetar
What is this J-Pipe you speak of with the GTi-R turbo setup?

It's an elbow that comes off the turbine housing and connects with the downpipe. It also is where the O2 sensor screws in. The BB DET also has one.

Originally posted by kheetar
And also, I see that the complete SR20DET engines(from the Bluebird, for example) come with equipment not included in the turbo packages(like oil-to-water oil coolers and sodium filled valves and lower compression pistons and "oil squirters"). It seems that these items are present to make the engine run better and also to prevent overheating or other problems associated with driving an engine hard. Can this equipment be added to a U.S.-spec SR20DE?

It certainly can. If you are going to run DET levels of power, just get the DET. If you are going to build a psycho fast engine, starting with a DE makes financial sense. JWT can add the piston coolers, provide lower compression pistons, and some folks have even removed their oil coolers.

Originally posted by kheetar
P.S. How does one adjust the boost level? With the ECU?

The boost controller interrupts the signal to the doohickey that actuates the wastegate. By interrupting the signal, it can provide any signal it wants, thereby leaving the wastegate closed until it reaches the specified boost.

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