Downfall of BMW

With the new models released, BMW hasn't got the faintest hope to take on Merc and Audi. Its 3-Series recent facelift did it no favours, the Compact is butt ugly, the X-Coupe is just plain hideous, the new 7-Series looks dreadful and the computer scans of the 5 Series looks too ugly to really be desirable.

BMW tells everyone that they are getting more profitable each year and will indefinately stay independent. Sure! With Chris Bangle let loose with his terrible sense of design, I won't be surprised to see Mercedes Benz being the more profitable corporation and BMW eventually recording looses just like Daewoo did in the last few years.

Come one BMW...surely you can find a better designer than Bangle. The unfacelifted 3-Series, the M5, Z8 and updated 5 Series and the X5 were quite good designs (even though the latter was Bangle designed).

The reason why the X5 and current 3-series (before facelift and also a bangle design) looked good is because he wasn't given the freedom to do anything he wanted. After the shakeup at BMW with the CEO and right hand man (who kept Bangle in check) left, we got what we see.

I just hope that they realize this and get someone better, like Tom Gale (formerly of Chrysler) who brought out such models as the Viper, Prowler, Ram and other cars that were very good looking cars but also very creative designs. Also, Gale advocated "heritage" designs, cars based on classics of the past. Someone like that would be great for BMW because he/she could mold new, futuristic, good designs with BMW looks.

Only time will tell. The new 7 series looks a little ahead of its time but it WILL grow on people.

Now I remember! When Reitzel was on board, he kept Bangle on a "leash", keeping him under control. So the X-5 and 3-Series was all thanks to Reitzel's design sense!

The 7-Series might grow on people...but will the rear end be more liked? Its too bloated and plain.

Where can I see pictures of these new facelifts?

Do you live in Australia? I'm sure Wheels and Motor are sure to have at least some discreet pictures of the facelifted 3-Series.

The ones I saw were from UK's Autocar magazine issue 33 15 August 15th 2001, page 29 in the "Worth Waiting for?" column. It looks dreadful and it only succeded in corrupting an already clean looking car. I mean, its so ironic...facelifts are supposed to make cars look good.

If you don't have Autocar in Australia, try visiting either http://www.bmw.co.uk/ or http://www.bmw.de/. I'm sure they should provide at least an image of the facelifted car (beware...these official carsights usually take photos of their cars in a specific angle that makes the car look better in the pictures than in metal).

Originally posted by MattyG
Where can I see pictures of these new facelifts?
Here's the facelifted 3: http://www.bmwstore.com/new_vehicles/current_vehicles/11065.jpg

And of the new 5: http://www.bmwplanet.com/arcmessageview.cfm?catid=20&threadid=1184&highlight_key=y&keyword1=e60

I agree, if Bangle continues with the uglification of BMW cars and the destruction of the "BMW Look", the future seems bleek for BMW in the face of competition from the likes of Merc and Audi (and Lexus?). The new Z3 is ugly!

Also, don't forget that BMW is creating new series: 1, 2, 4 (?), 6, 8 (?), and X3. I think this will dilute the BMW product line--it's a case of quantity over quality.

BTW, the new 3 isn't that bad. It's more evolution than revolution. Think of it as a E46.5. Now the new 7 is radical, but not as radical as the ones Bangle is dreaming up. X Coupe anyone?

Thanks for the links guys....I wasn't all that offended by any of the new shapes....I thought the E60 (5 series) looked a little boring but thats nothing new.

Originally posted by MattyG
I thought the E60 (5 series) looked a little boring but thats nothing new.
I need to see it in silver to get a better opinion. I think it looks too much like a Japanese economy car and not enough like a true BMW. The current 5 is okay looking, I'd spruce up the headlights a lil and change the rear light config. The new 5's grill is too small.

FYI, here's the e60 5 series thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=10569

Oh dear...you'd have to see the rear end of the E60 5-Series and the facelifted 3 to understand what kind of a mess Bangle did. Too bad Reitzle is gone from BMW...otherwise the Bimmers concepts would look much better than they are now.

Do you have a picture of the E60 rear?!

Btw, I think that the horizontal strip of light on the new 7's rear should be removed. It reminds too much of the ghastly Americanesque styling. (think Cadillacs, Lincoln, Buick, etc..)

Here's what I'm talking about:

Here are some more links:

X7 (http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/future_telling/BMWX7priddy.350.jpg)
X3 (http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/future_telling/may.update/bmwx3priddy.500.jpg) and the blatantly Altezza/RX300 inspired rear (http://automobile.mweb.co.th/story_images/l/1282_5.gif)
E60 5 series (http://automobile.mweb.co.th/story_images/l/1282_1.gif): Includes the ugly rear
6 series (http://automobile.mweb.co.th/story_images/l/1282_2.gif): Just the rear
Z3 (http://automobile.mweb.co.th/story_images/l/1282_3.gif): Not that bad, could be the angle though

I am definitely not feeling the new BMW grills. The top half is separate and more exaggerated.

E60 5-series rear looks just like the new 7-series, except it does not seem to have a B-pillar...although I may be mistaken.

http://www.supercarstats.com/articles/newz3.jpg

http://www.supercarstats.com/articles/newz3-2.jpg


hated it at first, but now, a few months later


BE STILL MY BEATING HEART!!!

Originally posted by Banzai
E60 5-series rear looks just like the new 7-series, except it does not seem to have a B-pillar...although I may be mistaken.
OT: What's a B-pillar? I hear these alot, but never figured out what they were.

Looking at it from those angles (and in that color) the new Z3 doesn't look that bad. Let's see it in some normal angles though.

I think B pillar is the line stretched from the boot to the front end where the lights are. Although I'm not certain. But you can probably see a pillar on the 3-series and the Jag S-Type. They have a visible line stretching from the end of the boot (or tail-gate) and to the headlight.

Anybody can correct this explanation?

A-pillar
The roof support on either side of a car's windshield.

B-pillar
The roof support between a car's front door window and rear side window, if there is one.

C-pillar
The roof support between a car's rearmost side window and its rear window. On a vehicle with four side pillars, the rearmost roof support may be called a D-pillar.

(Courtesy Car & Driver)

Here's a picture:

actually, I'm pretty sure that the BMW pictured above lacks a B-pillar. not all cars happen. It's what goes between the two doors as a part of the body, but the BMW's doors hide it I guess.

"a" is right.

"b" should be taken off.

the "c?" should be taken off.

the "d" should be renamed "c"


hope that helps..

Adam

Jinushaun: Thanks for that:)

By the way, are you a fan of Korean Hip Hop music? Cause your name sure sounds a lot like Korean Hip Hop duo "Jinusean" (Jinu and Sean).

What I don't understand is how you can OBJECTIVELY state the BMW's are ugly. I conceed the fact that the styling for the Z3/M coupe and roadster are just plain outdated, but you can not generalize that BMW's are ugly. The three series, subjectively to me, is one of the most beautiful cars out there. The five series' circular headlight borders are probably the most bold and aggressive apect of the ENTIRE BMW FLEET!!! The seven...I don't know. I can't look at a few select pictures on the internet and call a car ugly or beautiful. The rear headlight is a bit odd, but the fellers at Munich know what they're doing. X5, to me, is easily the best looking SUV AFTER the LR Range Rover. While these are just opinions, I think and hope they reflect the views of my fello AF'ers.

B eautiful
M echanical
W onder

Who said BMW's are ugly!!!

:rocket:

;)

but that's your opinion... however wrong (;)) it may be.

Originally posted by Banzai
By the way, are you a fan of Korean Hip Hop music? Cause your name sure sounds a lot like Korean Hip Hop duo "Jinusean" (Jinu and Sean).
Yeah, I took my name from Jinusean. I think my spelling is better! ;) (Shaun is me)

The picture that you have above of the 5-series side shot is a good one. The A-pillar is correct. The B-Pillar is correct. The C-Pillar is incorrect. The C-Pillar should be what is labeled as D-Pillar. There is no D-Pillar.

Sorry, I mean the 3-series photo above

but, I don't quite think that the b pillar on that beamer is called a b-pillar. It isn't exactly a post between the doors, it IS the doors...

Originally posted by Adam
but, I don't quite think that the b pillar on that beamer is called a b-pillar. It isn't exactly a post between the doors, it IS the doors...
But if you open both doors, you can see that the rear door is attached to a pillar, right?

yes

" What I don't understand is how you can OBJECTIVELY state the BMW's are ugly. I conceed the fact that the styling for the Z3/M coupe and roadster are just plain outdated, but you can not generalize that BMW's are ugly. The three series, subjectively to me, is one of the most beautiful cars out there. The five series' circular headlight borders are probably the most bold and aggressive apect of the ENTIRE BMW FLEET!!! The seven...I don't know. I can't look at a few select pictures on the internet and call a car ugly or beautiful. The rear headlight is a bit odd, but the fellers at Munich know what they're doing. X5, to me, is easily the best looking SUV AFTER the LR Range Rover. While these are just opinions, I think and hope they reflect the views of my fello AF'ers.

B eautiful
M echanical
W onder"


Well, for starters, I never pointed out that ALL BMW's were ugly. My original post was aimed squarely at the poor visual appeal of the next generation BMW's shown from outrageous concepts penned by Chris Bangle. What I mean is that I am criticising the X-coupe, facelifted 3-series, new 7-series, computer images of the 5-series and the Compact. I personally think that the current fleet are desirable enough to look at but if the BMW concepts recently shown picture what future Beemers look like, then I'm afraid Mercedes-Benz will hold a higher position in desirability and ultimately, sales figures. Which is why I bought an imported Ford Puma rather then a 330d...but that's another story.

Agree, we never said all BMWs were ugly. We were looking at the future of BMW automotive designs and stating our opinions about Bangle's bastardization of "the BMW look".

Right:) So our ranting is restricted to Bangle only.

Anyway, why is BMW beginning to use diesel engines now? The 330d was the first BMW sedan (I believe) to use a diesel engine and now, I heard that the BMW board wants all their range (including the 7-series) to have diesel engines. Besides cost saving, they believe diesel engine offers more "grunt" (rd: power) and would boost performance levels of their cars. Hmmmmmm...I'm not so sure about that:(

BMW is looking into diesel engines because they have been refined to the point where they actually can be better than gasoline engines in some categories. They are fuel efficient, smooth, quiet and can give relatively the same amount of power that a gas engine gives. It remains to be seen if it catches on here in the states. Diesels had a bad name for being noisy, smelly, etc.

If it could work in Europe, won't diesels be able to function properly in the USA? It would be a pity if such technology isn't available in the States.

Originally posted by Banzai
If it could work in Europe, won't diesels be able to function properly in the USA? It would be a pity if such technology isn't available in the States.

I think a major problem with diesels in the US would be A) overcoming the public's presumption that diesels are loud and stinky and B) making diesel more available.

In my area, gas stations that sell diesel is incredibly hard to find and inconvenient to get to. That would be something that would weigh in on my decision before I bought a diesel powered car.

www.WorthlessBMW.com

You really need to have more data to consider it worthless. Ford did the same thing on my previous car. Claimed it had been brand new but there was overspray all over the engine bay.

Not all the new BMW designs are bad.... I like the new 7-series design, hated it at first, but now i kinda got used to it, and it's really nice.

The new 6-series design looks AWESOME

I know what you mean. I still can't get used to the new 7-series, but it doesn't look as bad as a tofu-bland Lexus LS430. And I admit, the 7-series is loaded with technology that would put any Lexus's or Mercedes-Benz's to shame.

Good news: Ford officially announced a while ago that it no longer had any apparent interest in taking over BMW (ie: buying the Quandt family's stocks). Maybe Jac Nasser saw the BMW concepts and got scared away.

What you think about the Z5 BMW wants to release?
350hp+ in car with a weight of only 1000kg

i'd drive it :)

Great body! Shame about those lights. Look mild...should be a little more aggressive though.

I'm sure ther will be blends available:coolguy:

Anyway, why is BMW beginning to use diesel engines now? The 330d was the first BMW sedan (I believe) to use a diesel engine and now, I heard that the BMW board wants all their range (including the 7-series) to have diesel engines. Besides cost saving, they believe diesel engine offers more "grunt" (rd: power) and would boost performance levels of their cars. Hmmmmmm...I'm not so sure about that

the entire bmw range has been subjected to diesel engines previous to now... the E30 3 series had a diesel (324d i think), the old and new 5 series have diesel engines, even the 7 series (not the brand new one) had a diesel engine which developed good power and a hell of a lot of torque.

diesel engines are getting more and more refined but are still nowehere near as good as the incredible petrol engines that BMW produce. very torquey, though... despite this, i hate them.. most are still noisy and smelly and i would never drive one.... the car rattles like a tractor when you start the engine (even the new ones, MB, BMW....) not for me, thanks.

cheers
jay

same here.... i hate diesels and i'd never drive one

same reasons as you crazay

Maybe better new technologies on disel will impress us more. Or do you bet on the new discoveries or even simply old fashioned?:bandit:

If BMW finally does subject its entire range to diesel engines, including the upcoming 1 series, would it sort of affect BMW's Variable Valve Timing system?

OT: Wow, there sure seems to be a huge dislike of diesel cars! I must be living in a bubble, cuz I get the impression that in Europe, diesels are popular--in the UK at least. I wouldn't mind a diesel.

I drove a VW GTi Turbo diesel. It had about 200hp. It's fun to drive but fact is you sounnd like a truck when parking:(

I just HATE the sound of diesel engines at idle, that's the main reason i wouldn't buy one
plus they stink :)

You would be surprised how quiet the new 530d is. My uncle bought one last month and the only thing you will heard is the turbo discharge....

Diesels are popular in the Uk because theyre cheaper to run than petrol cars. that is the one and only reason why so many of them sell well. i hate everything about them, especially when a white van man pulls up next to me in his ford escort estate revving the nuts off the thing. you cant not close your window cos it sounds so f*cking awful!:mad: :mad:
diesel cars, at least old generation, suck a** majorly
cheers
jay

They should give ME the job of designing...I would make the most BOMB team...

MAN...BEEMERS WOULD LOOK TIGHT...

LOL...

I love these cars too much to watch some dude run them into the wall, esp. against mercedes!

Originally posted by Anik311
I love these cars too much to watch some dude run them into the wall, esp. against mercedes!
I agree, but you do realise that Bangle designed the E46, right? The E46 (pre-2002), IMHO, is the sweetest looking car!

I'd say the same thing, but I'm not sure how great I'd be at designing fresh new BMW models without getting at least one--if not most--BMW fan mad at me.

This is true...no one can make EVERYONE happy!!!

BUt still...it would be SO nice to be in his shoes...and designing Beemers