Alternative fuel vehicles

I already have information on GM's EV1 and Toyota's Prius... I still need more info on Honda's Insight, and their prototype for "hydrogen" cars... Also, what is this I hear about water-run vehicles???

Any information would be very helpful. Just for reference, this info is needed for a speech on alternative fueling choices for the future...

~tangie

OK, the insight uses a 1L 3 cylinder engine with 70 hp, with an electric motor/generator integrated into it. (its not nearly as torque as the Prius, which has like 220+lb-ft).

Water-powered vehicles: Soon, there should be on the market some of these. At night, you would plug it in, and attach the vehicle to a hose. Then, through electrolosis, it will separate the H and O, and will store the H in a tank. then in the morning, you will unplug the hose/power, and drive away, making no emissions whatsoever! (except for the required power for electrolosis, which comes from the coal-fired power plant down the road)

Also, BMW wants to use hydrogen in regular engines (so they could use the water process). Some places want to use a really complicated/expensive way to turn the hydrogen into electricity. This a stupid idea.

There won't be any vehicles operating on water anytime soon.

Hydrogen is the near-term fuel of the future. The methods of extracting hydrogen are varied.

Some of them include on-board reformers which pull the hydrogen from another fuel like methanol or gasoline. This method is being devised (and should be on the market within 3-4 years) to utilize the existing systems for fuel delivery. You could pull right up to your local gas station and fill up.

The other methods use off-board reformers. These systems will have an outside source that extracts hydrogen. Electrolysis of water draws hydrogen but is expensive and time consuming. Reformers like those mentioned above could be placed at gas stations where they would draw the hydrogen from gasoline or methanol.

Hydrogen in internal combustion engines (like BMW has been testing for decades) will probably not take off. Fuel cells (the above mentioned system) are more efficient.

It would probably be impossible to make it efficient to get the hydrogen from water on the go, but at home it is possible. The only restricition is the time required. So it would be limited to city trips. Unless a hydrogen infra-structure were developed.

But the on-board refinery is soooo expensive. At a gas station, it might take too long to reform it (in the car, it doesnt require all the hydrogen at once)


In my mind, the ideal way to do it is: At a major river with a power generating station on it, which would generate the power for electrolosis of the water. Then the refined hydrogen could be trucked away to wherever. This would produce no emmissions at all.:)

cant beat a moped.

from the TOKYO AUTO SHOW Honda have a new hybrid car which is a 400hp 4 seater and 50mpg. WoW!

Originally posted by Tommykaira ZZII
from the TOKYO AUTO SHOW Honda have a new hybrid car which is a 400hp 4 seater and 50mpg. WoW!

got anything more on this car??? Is it in the market against the Prius???

There was also an electric limo. It had 500+hp (one motor per wheel), and seated a bunch of people. It was clocked at over 190mph!! I will post more later if you want.

Originally posted by Chris
There was also an electric limo. It had 500+hp (one motor per wheel), and seated a bunch of people. It was clocked at over 190mph!! I will post more later if you want.

wow, very cool! How'd the battery work that hard/long??? (I'm not allowed to only talk about the cars themselves, so I have to focus on the technology behind them, too :D )

Originally posted by saturntangerine


got anything more on this car??? Is it in the market against the Prius???



ok here sum stuff about it http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/auto/index.html ..click on the dualnote car....also there is a page about a civic hybrid comin out soon!

Originally posted by Tommykaira ZZII

ok here sum stuff about it http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/auto/index.html ..click on the dualnote car....also there is a page about a civic hybrid comin out soon!

Thanks! :)

Originally posted by Chris
...In my mind, the ideal way to do it is: At a major river with a power generating station on it, which would generate the power for electrolosis of the water. Then the refined hydrogen could be trucked away to wherever. This would produce no emmissions at all.:)

Why truck it? Why not produce the hydrogen right at the refueling station? Wouldn't that make it cheaper and more plentiful?

As for the on-board reformers, they're already being moved toward production. The first ones are expected to hit the market by 2004 or 2005. The first "affordable" fuel cell cars will follow by the end of the decade and will probably still have reformers on-board.

If you produce it at the gas station, you have had to ship the oil from either Texas, Northern Alberta, or the Middle East. THen it needs to be refined to rid it of impurities. This costs money/time (and creates pollution).
Then, you need to refine it at the station. The by-product is carbon, which is not the greatest thing in the world.

With my way, water is turned into hydrogen by flowing water. Then the hydrogen-powered trucks drive it to the station (they will need to weigh more so they dont float up, but they will get super-economy from the light weight). Also, this could be done at any dam, so it would be convenient by being relatively local (1000km instead of 2000km). Then everyone could be happy:)

Help! :)

I went to the natural gas websites, but all they want is for me to use them as my NG supplier... I need to get a very basic idea of how NG cars run.... Anyone???

Thanks for everything so far! It's great! And thanks in advance for this, too! :D

~tangie

You would use compressed natural gas. It is stored at several thousand psi. They need to be in circular containers. They have made some advancements, and they now integrate many smaller containers into one big one, allowing it to be flat. Tanks are still expensive, though (about $1000 at least) The gas is then injected into the cylinder or intake manifold just like regular gas. Then it is burned. There are essentially no bad emissions, just some CO2 and water. It is not perfect (CO2 is greenhouse gas), but it is quite possibly the best alternative.

Originally posted by Chris
If you produce it at the gas station, you have had to ship the oil from either Texas, Northern Alberta, or the Middle East. THen it needs to be refined to rid it of impurities. This costs money/time (and creates pollution).
Then, you need to refine it at the station. The by-product is carbon, which is not the greatest thing in the world.

With my way, water is turned into hydrogen by flowing water. Then the hydrogen-powered trucks drive it to the station (they will need to weigh more so they dont float up, but they will get super-economy from the light weight). Also, this could be done at any dam, so it would be convenient by being relatively local (1000km instead of 2000km). Then everyone could be happy:)

If you produce hydrogen from petroleum, all of your points are valid. But they'll already have gasoline or methanol at the GAS STATION, assuming that they sell gasoline/methanol as well as hydrogen. I have problems with the extraction of hydrogen from gasoline/methanol because I don't know what's left. This is the method that most major automakers are going with, though.

If you produce hydrogen from water, you do not have any of these problems (or they are greatly reduced). Extracting hydrogen from water (tap water, well water, nearby creek/river/lake) should provide the cleanest method. If a "gas station" performs the extraction on premises, they would save money compared to trucking the hydrogen from "refinery" to sales outlet.

already have gasoline or methanol at the GAS STATION

Oh, I see. Refining it there now seems like a good idea as well. But eventually, they may stop selling gas at all stations. Then you would ship in hydrogen.

The best part is, we may get to keep the Internal combustion engine and all the emotion that goes with it, it will just be running on hydrogen.:D

Or...you could use electrolysis and create pure hydrogen RIGHT AT THE STATION.

Also, why use hydrogen in an ICE? Why not find a better method altogether...like a fuel cell?

I'm goint to have to call this one of the best conversations ever here. SaturnTangerine is going to have so much data!

Originally posted by Chris
I'm goint to have to call this one of the best conversations ever here. SaturnTangerine is going to have so much data!

I'm absolutely impressed! :D Now if only my speech was allowed to be longer than 7 minutes!!! *lol*

Saturn, are you in Toastmasters? I recently gave a speech about this topic to my Toastmaster's group. I spoke about the proton exchange membrane, and perhaps you'd like to include it in your speech. Type proton exchange membrane into a search engine and you'll get tons of information.:D

Originally posted by enginerd
Saturn, are you in Toastmasters? I recently gave a speech about this topic to my Toastmaster's group. I spoke about the proton exchange membrane, and perhaps you'd like to include it in your speech. Type proton exchange membrane into a search engine and you'll get tons of information.:D

*lmao* That was so far over my head!!! This is just the "final" grade for my Oral communications class. I thought it'd be cool to talk about cars :) But thank you muchly for the offer! I'm not sure you could get me to understand the science of it enough to talk about it anyway! :hehe:

A giant THANK YOU to everyone!

The speech went well, and people seemed to be somewhat interested! :D

~tangie

In grade 8, I did my speech on corvettes. I got to the gym, and came in third. So it must have been good, because most people didnt know what I was talking about (whats "cubic inches"?? Are "disc brakes" good??? "Is L88 good??", and so it went, with no one really caring):rolleyes:

Re the hrdrogen fuel, it is quite easy to convert water to hydrogen, but i reckon you you wont ever get to use it, there is just too much profit in oil.

I my self have been doing experiments and the main facter to increasing conversian, is raising the voltage, an automotive coil bangs out how many volts? - i think it is between 80 andf 100,000 volts. that is more than enough, so simply fitting a secondary coil would be more than enough Voltage the real problem would be tryng to increase and decrease voltage rapidly to enable acceleration and decelaration.

I can tell you that it is easier,and cheaper to convert water to Hydrogen than it is to bore for oil, and the refine it for petrol, so why are we still using petrol - simple, - Greedy capitalists, stuff the planet going to pot as long as the capitalists get their profit.

Two other factors help in the conversian 1. hot water converts quicker, than cold- once the engine is running you get heat no problem, the other factor is the surface area of the electrodes also no problem.

Through my experiments i have found that a hydrogen carb would need to be about four times the size of petrol one and that was using only 48 volts, so more voltage would equal smaller carb.


MADASS

The best place to convert Hydrogen, is as near to the place place of combustion as possible, ie the inlet manifold, - produce it as you use it, - there bye eliminating any risk of explosions, and of course all you need is a plastic water tank to carry your fuel. Just think tanking up your car from Tthe garden tap and a lot less risk of car fires, which would in a fair and decent society would even mean a reduction in car insurance - but dose any one seriously believe that this will happen?

MADASS


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I am not Paranoid .......




Its just that every one is out to get me:flipa:

Originally posted by MADASS
The best place to convert Hydrogen, is as near to the place place of combustion as possible, ie the inlet manifold, - produce it as you use it, - there bye eliminating any risk of explosions, and of course all you need is a plastic water tank to carry your fuel. Just think tanking up your car from Tthe garden tap and a lot less risk of car fires, which would in a fair and decent society would even mean a reduction in car insurance - but dose any one seriously believe that this will happen?


I'm not talking about any combustion of hydrogen. Fuel cells don't burn hydrogen. Carrying the hydrogen, in some form, is necessary. Either in the form of a petroleum-based fuel and reforming it into hydrogen or as hydrogen itself. Chrysler is now testing a method where the hydrogen is carried in a non-combustable compound that can be easily recycled.

With the "risk of car fires," there was a time when electric and steam car people thought an internal combusion engine was too dangerous to be on the street. Hydrogen power will overcome these fears as well.

While there is plenty of profit in petroleum-based fuels, there won't be that profit motive forever. As supplies get shorter, either naturally or through disturbances in the supply route, hydrogen will become a more popular alternative.

As the power provided by fuel cells increase, there will be fewer and fewer reasons why in internal combustion makes sense. Fuel cells are cleaner, they run on renewable resources, they're quieter, they're smoother...there's little reason NOT to like them.

Fuel cell powered vehicles will be in production inside of 3 years...and in mass production inside of ten years.

Hi Hudson, sorry but i dont really know about he Hdrogen fuel cells, i dont supose you would know of a web site that could enlighten me do you?

Getting back to The point of Burning Hydrogen as a fuel though, that would also make a lot of sense, in fact cars could run on it now instead of LPG that is being push now in Britain, and need for the expensive of developing a Hydrogen cell. Only one reason PROFIT.

QUOTE>>>>
As the power provided by fuel cells increase, there will be fewer and fewer reasons why in internal combustion makes sense. Fuel cells are cleaner, they run on renewable resources, they're quieter, they're smoother...there's little reason NOT to like them.

There will be one reason to dislike them and that is th price you will have to pay for them, there is no way on earth will capitalist governments let any one get away with geting cheaper fuel than they are getting now, ( i Guarrantee you that fact ) Other wise we all be running our cars on water now..

MADASS


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I am not paranoid ......

its just tht every one is out to get me

Nobody ever said they'd be cheaper than what we're driving now.

Competition will bring the price of fuel-cell cars within range of ICE cars within 20 years. THAT is capitalism. Fuel-cells are a better source of power than an internal combustion engine. Once the infrastructure is in place to provide fuel for them, capitalism will take over and the will flourish. You're assuming that the only profit is in ICE cars.

There will be companies providing fuel-cell stacks, electric motors, hydrogen as fuel, etc. Capitalism can only keep gasoline prices competitive for so long.

As emissions controls become more stringent and fuel economy requirements rise, fuel-cells will be the smarter alternative for the market.

Fuel-cells are expensive now. They will be expensive when they enter "production" in 2-3 years. They will be affordable within 20 years. I don't expect people to move from ICE to fuel-cell vehicles at a large additional upfront cost...but they will move when the price is competitive. And it will happen sooner than later.

I guarrantee this.

I was 16 in 2001, no interest in alternative fuel but now that I'm in college and taking mechanical engineering and headed for automotive engineering I was wondering if anyone could help me out and give me some information on vehicles today. I heard of a few water powered cars, even one my fiancé’s uncle used to have. Anywhere I could get one or any other type of alternative fuel cars/trucks? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Go to the library, they probably have a tons of books about alcohol fueled vehicles, and how to convert your vehicle to run on alcohol. They'll also have books on electric cars, and biofuels.

Just don't buy into the fantasy hype about hydrogen. It has to be produced from other forms of energy to its final state therefore it is inherently prohibitively expensive. You can't make 15 1-lb. roasts from 10 lbs. of beef. If you consume $1.20 worth of materials to produce another form of energy for $1.00 how do you come out ahead? It's like cold fusion it goes against the laws of physical chemistry and economics.
http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Good-Luck.gif

Fuel cells are a very good alternative, but if you think about it, it's nothing but a rechargable batterie. The problem is their low efficiency about 25%. Batteries on the other can deliver 90% + efficiency. But fuel cells can store more energy but they can't charge or discharge nearly as quickly as high performance batteries. But fortunately there is a huge developpement at battery science going on and they will rapidly improve to exeed the fuel cell capabillities in every way.
You can ectually notice this in the mobile phone idustrie, but this is only a small example. I happen to be somehow experienced with electricity combined whith racing and I've seen some amazing performance capabilities which batterie power can provide.