Vehicle testing
taranaki
07-23-2003, 02:57 PM
How much do you pay to have your vehicle inspected?How often are you obliged to do it?Who carries out the inspection,and do they make a fair job of it?
Here in NZ,the Warrant Of Fitness inspection is every 6 months,and can be carried out by any authorised garage.I've had bad experiences with garages issuing fail notices on minor items for the sake of extra profit,so my car goes to a specialist testing company who don't offer a repair service.Fees for the test are set by the testers,so if you shop around you can get a cheap inspection,but the risk is that you will end up with a harsher result.I pay $35 for a test,and if you drive in late on a Monday afternoon,and the place is quiet,you get the benefit of 4 inspectors working on your car,and the test is complete in about 10 minutes.The Skyline should have failed[top of windscreen obscured with duct tape:bloated:],but the inspectors very generously applied some common sense and issued the ticket on a verbal assurance that I'd only just accquired the car and would strip the tape off at home that night.
Here in NZ,the Warrant Of Fitness inspection is every 6 months,and can be carried out by any authorised garage.I've had bad experiences with garages issuing fail notices on minor items for the sake of extra profit,so my car goes to a specialist testing company who don't offer a repair service.Fees for the test are set by the testers,so if you shop around you can get a cheap inspection,but the risk is that you will end up with a harsher result.I pay $35 for a test,and if you drive in late on a Monday afternoon,and the place is quiet,you get the benefit of 4 inspectors working on your car,and the test is complete in about 10 minutes.The Skyline should have failed[top of windscreen obscured with duct tape:bloated:],but the inspectors very generously applied some common sense and issued the ticket on a verbal assurance that I'd only just accquired the car and would strip the tape off at home that night.
TheNotoriousMogg
07-23-2003, 03:12 PM
We have mandatory emissions and testing every 4 years they are a bitch also...I failed 3 times
1st time...check engine light kicked on...
2nd time...their was paint on my engine from the junkyard where i got the engine swap...
3rd time...I cant remember
teh cost is $55 if you fail you dont pay...so thats nice :icon16:
either way they are bastards :thefinger
1st time...check engine light kicked on...
2nd time...their was paint on my engine from the junkyard where i got the engine swap...
3rd time...I cant remember
teh cost is $55 if you fail you dont pay...so thats nice :icon16:
either way they are bastards :thefinger
2strokebloke
07-23-2003, 03:16 PM
Every four years. The Toyota won't have even the slightest chance of passin the emissions test when it's due. But, luckily when it's due the Toyota turns 25, and as such is a "classic" exempt from emissions!
2-strokers built before 1980 are also exempt from emissions but still need to be inspected. The regular items checked: windshield cracks, lights, horn, wipers.
2-strokers built before 1980 are also exempt from emissions but still need to be inspected. The regular items checked: windshield cracks, lights, horn, wipers.
Amish_kid
07-23-2003, 03:22 PM
Well in Nova Scotia all I know is that my father charges what the Governemt tells him to, which is $14 + Tax Haha some of you by the sounds of it are getting hosed big time since we don't have any emission laws and such throughout most the country.
turbo2nr
07-23-2003, 03:26 PM
i taught we had to do a emmisions test every year in nyc. maybe im thinking of somehting else :confused:
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lordvektra
07-23-2003, 03:40 PM
good ol Alabama. no test. but sometimes I think there should be there are some POS things that should not be on the road here.
Polygon
07-23-2003, 03:51 PM
You have to have your safty and emissions inspected every year here in Utah. Both tests cost about $25.00 and I've never failed. I did get a verbal warning for having pretty bald tires on the LeBaron.
Heep
07-23-2003, 04:45 PM
In Ontario, you have to have your car emissions tested every year (if it's Ontario registered, which mine is not, thankfully). Never done it so I'm not sure of the charges. You also have to have your vehicle safety inspected when you first register it to your name in Ontario, but again I've never done that and I don't know how much it costs, or if you need to do it again.
In New Brunswick, there is no emissions testing, but annual safety inspections covering basic stuff like the front end, lights, horn, wipers, overly large body holes, etc. The test costs $15 (mandated by the provincial government). While my car is in Ontario it does not need a current inspection (well they can't enforce it anyways), but as soon as an expired car comes back into NB it's illegal until it's inspected. As I have no current plans to take the car back and it can only get an NB inspection in NB, it's currently expired, so I removed the sticker. I'd rather have a cop not see any sticker and be none the wiser than to see an expired sticker...
In New Brunswick, there is no emissions testing, but annual safety inspections covering basic stuff like the front end, lights, horn, wipers, overly large body holes, etc. The test costs $15 (mandated by the provincial government). While my car is in Ontario it does not need a current inspection (well they can't enforce it anyways), but as soon as an expired car comes back into NB it's illegal until it's inspected. As I have no current plans to take the car back and it can only get an NB inspection in NB, it's currently expired, so I removed the sticker. I'd rather have a cop not see any sticker and be none the wiser than to see an expired sticker...
esp
07-23-2003, 04:50 PM
no emissions testing here in wisconsin:thefinger
Jay!
07-23-2003, 05:00 PM
California: Smog Check :mad:
Required every 2 years for any car over 4 years old, and when ever the title changes hands.
http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/
Costs around $40. If you don't pass, make repairs and re-test.
We're tested for emissions of hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO), and oxides of nitrogen (NOx). But, in addition to that, we also have an under-hood inspection, and any parts the tech think aren't stock must have an exemption number from the California Air Resources Board. :mad:
WTF? If emissions are okay, who cares what parts are there? :mad:
Required every 2 years for any car over 4 years old, and when ever the title changes hands.
http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/
Costs around $40. If you don't pass, make repairs and re-test.
We're tested for emissions of hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO), and oxides of nitrogen (NOx). But, in addition to that, we also have an under-hood inspection, and any parts the tech think aren't stock must have an exemption number from the California Air Resources Board. :mad:
WTF? If emissions are okay, who cares what parts are there? :mad:
2strokebloke
07-23-2003, 05:21 PM
Another reason that California sucks. Buy a 360, I've heard that they're emissions exempt (under 50 cubic inches, and 2-stroke engine, does Cali exempt classic cars?)
Jay!
07-23-2003, 05:31 PM
Diesel cars and pre-1975 cars with intact emissions equipment are exempt.
And you're spot-on:Additionally, vehicles with diesel engines, vehicles with two-cycle engines, vehicles with engines smaller than 50 cubic inches of displacement, electric vehicles, and motorcycles are exempt from the Smog Check program.
And you're spot-on:Additionally, vehicles with diesel engines, vehicles with two-cycle engines, vehicles with engines smaller than 50 cubic inches of displacement, electric vehicles, and motorcycles are exempt from the Smog Check program.
audi&benz
07-23-2003, 05:34 PM
in Georgia you have to have your emmisions checked every year. it is a pain in the ass and costs about 20-25 bucks. but it is pretty easy to pass.
DMC12
07-23-2003, 09:34 PM
California is a good example of legislation gone wrong. Smog checks were good in theory, but much like you've experienced Mr. T they are a little crooked & will try to get some other repair income from you. Either that, or they don't care and will pass anything if you slip them an extra $40. Either way the environment suffers as more people bribe to pass, or believe their car is safe when in fact the mechanic just took $200 for "repairs" and passed the car anyway.
And if you fail they will start sending you to "test-only" stations that cost a little more. If you fail there, then you're in some pretty deep stuff because "test-only" means no repairs... which means you're a "gross polluter" and out of luck.
Of course I'm being very general here...
And if you fail they will start sending you to "test-only" stations that cost a little more. If you fail there, then you're in some pretty deep stuff because "test-only" means no repairs... which means you're a "gross polluter" and out of luck.
Of course I'm being very general here...
speediva
07-23-2003, 09:35 PM
Shit, you all get off LUCKY!!!
PA has State Safety Inspection AND Emissions EVERY YEAR!!! I think it's often around $30 for both, pass or fail. There's like a $2 charge if you pass for each sticker.
Safety Inspection is pretty damn rigorous. Tires must have over 2/32 tread, EVERY light on the body must be fully operational, wipers must work, body must be in good shape, suspension in full order (I failed safety last year b/c of what is essentially the Upper control arm on the driver's front wheel), cracks in the windshield must be less than 8" and not cause problems in the Driver's view... I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.
Emissions is also every year, and not very lenient. They test HCs and CO2 both at idle and 2500rpm's. My car failed last year. :( However, if you show you've put over $150 into trying to correct the problem you can get a 1 year emissions waiver. You then have that year to get it fixed. BUT, if you don't get it fixed in that one year, you can't get another waiver the next year.
PA has State Safety Inspection AND Emissions EVERY YEAR!!! I think it's often around $30 for both, pass or fail. There's like a $2 charge if you pass for each sticker.
Safety Inspection is pretty damn rigorous. Tires must have over 2/32 tread, EVERY light on the body must be fully operational, wipers must work, body must be in good shape, suspension in full order (I failed safety last year b/c of what is essentially the Upper control arm on the driver's front wheel), cracks in the windshield must be less than 8" and not cause problems in the Driver's view... I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.
Emissions is also every year, and not very lenient. They test HCs and CO2 both at idle and 2500rpm's. My car failed last year. :( However, if you show you've put over $150 into trying to correct the problem you can get a 1 year emissions waiver. You then have that year to get it fixed. BUT, if you don't get it fixed in that one year, you can't get another waiver the next year.
DMC12
07-23-2003, 09:42 PM
:eek2: I thought we had it bad in Cali :frown: That is just lame:loser:
replicant_008
07-23-2003, 09:43 PM
My warrant is every year (the car is new) and it's part of the annual service. And apart from the minor induction side mods the car's standard so the car servicing folk give it a big tick (especially as I hate having tires with less than 3.5 mm of tread - they get replaced long before they become illegal).
Heep
07-23-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by saturntangerine
Safety Inspection is pretty damn rigorous. Tires must have over 2/32 tread, EVERY light on the body must be fully operational, wipers must work, body must be in good shape, suspension in full order (I failed safety last year b/c of what is essentially the Upper control arm on the driver's front wheel), cracks in the windshield must be less than 8" and not cause problems in the Driver's view... I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.
That sounds a lot like NB inspection except it's only $15 CAD, and retesting if you fail is free from what I remember. Like I said, no emissions either.
Safety Inspection is pretty damn rigorous. Tires must have over 2/32 tread, EVERY light on the body must be fully operational, wipers must work, body must be in good shape, suspension in full order (I failed safety last year b/c of what is essentially the Upper control arm on the driver's front wheel), cracks in the windshield must be less than 8" and not cause problems in the Driver's view... I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.
That sounds a lot like NB inspection except it's only $15 CAD, and retesting if you fail is free from what I remember. Like I said, no emissions either.
themodelkid
07-23-2003, 10:34 PM
Whoo i fell better now, i dont go through SHIT, EVER. You could run open header here and, might just get pulled over for the sound thats it. I love it here, ....except the snow...:thefinger :frown: :biggrin:
Accord_Zero
07-23-2003, 10:59 PM
No testing in Florida. Yay, because I have a high-flow 'cat'. My engine light is always on due to the Accord's 2 O2 sensors (one before the cat, one after). The new high-flow never came with a sensore hole, so I'll eventually get it welded on I suppose.
I also have all clear tail lights...a no-no I suppose, even though they say 'DOT' on part of the housing. I live in a smaller area, but if I ever go to a major city, I put the old tails back on for that time.
I also have all clear tail lights...a no-no I suppose, even though they say 'DOT' on part of the housing. I live in a smaller area, but if I ever go to a major city, I put the old tails back on for that time.
Steel
07-24-2003, 02:59 AM
Massachusetts is getting pretty anal about emissions. I guess we're going to cali. standards soon :mad: But hopefully i can still gut my cats and trick them with alcohol, hehe:iceslolan
Dublinguy
07-24-2003, 03:26 AM
Its interesting to hear about all the different types of testing in the likes of America and Canada. Not hearing to much from other countries so here is how its done in Ireland.
Its called the NCT(National Car Test) it came in back around 1999/2000 and its meant for any car thats older then 4 years and you are retested every two years after the first time it is done. The contract for it was given out by the Government to a Scandanavian company who specialise in vehicle testing. There are numerous test centres around the country where the car must go to to be tested. It costs about €40 to do the test and if the car fails you now have to pay a retest fee €27. Before you only ever paid the retest if any of the equipment had to be used to retest the car. You also get to watch the car as it goes down the test lane. Things tested on the car range from emmissions, headlight alignment, brakes, shocks, tyres even if your seatbelts are in working order. The car must be completely emptied before it goes for the test and all hubcaps removed aswell. They will refuse the car otherwise.
I have gone through it twice with two different cars and passed both times. My first car was done in the first few months of the test being introduced so things were quite easy then. My present car is due to be tested next year. The last time it went through it the headlights were a bit low and there was a chip in my windscreen directly in front of the driver that they picked up on. I'll have to get both of them done to pass it next year otherwise they will fail the car.
I for one am delighted that it was brough in there are less and less 'Banger' cars on the road and if you are buying a second hand car you feel a little more at ease knowing it it was independently tested. Also if your cars fails the NCT you wont be able to tax the car until it passes and the Gardai (Irish Copper) get really pissed if you dont have tax or insurance on the car.
Ciaran
Its called the NCT(National Car Test) it came in back around 1999/2000 and its meant for any car thats older then 4 years and you are retested every two years after the first time it is done. The contract for it was given out by the Government to a Scandanavian company who specialise in vehicle testing. There are numerous test centres around the country where the car must go to to be tested. It costs about €40 to do the test and if the car fails you now have to pay a retest fee €27. Before you only ever paid the retest if any of the equipment had to be used to retest the car. You also get to watch the car as it goes down the test lane. Things tested on the car range from emmissions, headlight alignment, brakes, shocks, tyres even if your seatbelts are in working order. The car must be completely emptied before it goes for the test and all hubcaps removed aswell. They will refuse the car otherwise.
I have gone through it twice with two different cars and passed both times. My first car was done in the first few months of the test being introduced so things were quite easy then. My present car is due to be tested next year. The last time it went through it the headlights were a bit low and there was a chip in my windscreen directly in front of the driver that they picked up on. I'll have to get both of them done to pass it next year otherwise they will fail the car.
I for one am delighted that it was brough in there are less and less 'Banger' cars on the road and if you are buying a second hand car you feel a little more at ease knowing it it was independently tested. Also if your cars fails the NCT you wont be able to tax the car until it passes and the Gardai (Irish Copper) get really pissed if you dont have tax or insurance on the car.
Ciaran
freakray
07-24-2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by saturntangerine
Shit, you all get off LUCKY!!!
PA has State Safety Inspection AND Emissions EVERY YEAR!!! I think it's often around $30 for both, pass or fail. There's like a $2 charge if you pass for each sticker.
Emissions is only in the major cities (Pittsburgh and Philladelphia)
Out in the sticks in central PA, you only have to get State Inspection.
Shit, you all get off LUCKY!!!
PA has State Safety Inspection AND Emissions EVERY YEAR!!! I think it's often around $30 for both, pass or fail. There's like a $2 charge if you pass for each sticker.
Emissions is only in the major cities (Pittsburgh and Philladelphia)
Out in the sticks in central PA, you only have to get State Inspection.
Jay!
07-24-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by DMC12
And if you fail they will start sending you to "test-only" stations that cost a little more. If you fail there, then you're in some pretty deep stuff because "test-only" means no repairs... which means you're a "gross polluter" and out of luck.It's not necessarily if you fail; they send some percent of the normal ones to Test-Only stations.
But, if you fail at a Test-Only station, you can qualify for up to $500-something of state money for your repairs. When my Accord failed, and I needed new injectors, I paid the first $100, and the state covered the next $4xx... :bigthumb:
And if you fail they will start sending you to "test-only" stations that cost a little more. If you fail there, then you're in some pretty deep stuff because "test-only" means no repairs... which means you're a "gross polluter" and out of luck.It's not necessarily if you fail; they send some percent of the normal ones to Test-Only stations.
But, if you fail at a Test-Only station, you can qualify for up to $500-something of state money for your repairs. When my Accord failed, and I needed new injectors, I paid the first $100, and the state covered the next $4xx... :bigthumb:
dayna240sx
07-24-2003, 07:55 PM
well in my crappiest state ever of Indiana, there is no emmisions check, and I got pulled over in my 240 because the cop said it was "too loud" (I have a test pipe, no cat) but he told me that he couldnt do anything to me because there is no law in Indiana on car noise. (I'm pretty sure he was just doing a seatbelt check)
Sanchi
07-24-2003, 08:52 PM
I think the cop just wanted to check you out Dayna :iceslolan
Nrbumgard
07-24-2003, 08:59 PM
Well here in TN. It cost 12 bucks and they test your emissions through your computer chip and they test to see if you gas cap fits right. And they do it once a year. It is done by the an ind. contractor for the state at authorized locations.
dayna240sx
07-24-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Sanchi
I think the cop just wanted to check you out Dayna :iceslolan
ha! that might explain why the cop went back to his car, and another cop came back with him!
I think the cop just wanted to check you out Dayna :iceslolan
ha! that might explain why the cop went back to his car, and another cop came back with him!
Jimster
07-25-2003, 01:58 AM
Emissions testing is a once every-now and then thing around here and once a year I've got to take the Alfa for a Vehicle fitness test :):)
speediva
07-25-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by freakray
Emissions is only in the major cities (Pittsburgh and Philladelphia)
Out in the sticks in central PA, you only have to get State Inspection.
Shouldn't be that way. :mad: I don't even live in the same COUNTY as Pittsburgh, and I have to pass emissions. Stupid, stupid laws.
Emissions is only in the major cities (Pittsburgh and Philladelphia)
Out in the sticks in central PA, you only have to get State Inspection.
Shouldn't be that way. :mad: I don't even live in the same COUNTY as Pittsburgh, and I have to pass emissions. Stupid, stupid laws.
BP2K2Max
04-10-2004, 03:31 PM
in ny cars are inspected annually and i have never been emissions tested.
Steel
04-10-2004, 04:02 PM
That chip is pure bullshit.
Anyway, to add to my post of.. last year, I think all rotaries before the RX-8 series should be exempt, because they're just so damn cool. And smoggy. :D
Anyway, to add to my post of.. last year, I think all rotaries before the RX-8 series should be exempt, because they're just so damn cool. And smoggy. :D
DevoutWankelist
04-10-2004, 04:12 PM
in ny cars are inspected annually and i have never been emissions tested.
Hmmmm. Maybe it's because I live in Kansas where there are just as many tractors on some of the roads as cars, but we don't have any semblance of emmisions regulations. I bet 60% of Kansans would fail emissions if we had test, all I see around here are trucks, big trucks, bigger trucks, even bigger trucks, SUVs, and tractors. . .
Hmmmm. Maybe it's because I live in Kansas where there are just as many tractors on some of the roads as cars, but we don't have any semblance of emmisions regulations. I bet 60% of Kansans would fail emissions if we had test, all I see around here are trucks, big trucks, bigger trucks, even bigger trucks, SUVs, and tractors. . .
goat_launcher
04-10-2004, 06:15 PM
That chip is pure bullshit.
Anyway, to add to my post of.. last year, I think all rotaries before the RX-8 series should be exempt, because they're just so damn cool. And smoggy. :D
Fuckin' right on there. :ylsuper: Esp. those dudes with the old school 1st gens still rollin'.
Anyway, to add to my post of.. last year, I think all rotaries before the RX-8 series should be exempt, because they're just so damn cool. And smoggy. :D
Fuckin' right on there. :ylsuper: Esp. those dudes with the old school 1st gens still rollin'.
Swoxy
04-13-2004, 07:13 PM
In the UK a MoT (Ministry of Transport) test must be taken every year by all vehicles over three years old. It checks brakes, doors, emissions, fuel system, horn, lights, mirrors, registration plates, seat belts, seats, steering, suspension, tyres, wheels, structure, windscreen and more.
DevoutWankelist
04-13-2004, 07:40 PM
In the UK a MoT (Ministry of Transport) test must be taken every year by all vehicles over three years old. It checks brakes, doors, emissions, fuel system, horn, lights, mirrors, registration plates, seat belts, seats, steering, suspension, tyres, wheels, structure, windscreen and more! Is this the most stringent car test in the world?
Minitrans in newspeak. . .
sorry, couldn't help myself
Minitrans in newspeak. . .
sorry, couldn't help myself
speediva
04-13-2004, 07:49 PM
Minitrans in newspeak. . .
sorry, couldn't help myself
hahaha, if I wasn't reading that right now, I probably would have NEVER gotten that. Good on ya!
sorry, couldn't help myself
hahaha, if I wasn't reading that right now, I probably would have NEVER gotten that. Good on ya!
MagicRat
04-13-2004, 10:31 PM
Unless something has changed recently, Alberta (Canada) has it best. No nothing. No emissions test, no safety test. Nothing.
That combined with gasoline at 50 cents/ litre is the best deal going.
That combined with gasoline at 50 cents/ litre is the best deal going.
eversio11
04-13-2004, 10:49 PM
Minitrans in newspeak. . .
sorry, couldn't help myself
go back to the 80s ya crazy wankelist
sorry, couldn't help myself
go back to the 80s ya crazy wankelist
justacruiser
04-13-2004, 11:05 PM
There aren't any safety checks here in cali. Which is good for me because I don't want to waste my time and money, all my cars would pass. However, we've had problems before with a certain persuasion of people, (not naming names here, let's just say they work out in the fields and call it good), who have cars that are pieces of SHIT for one and are incredibly unsafe for two. The state really had problems a few years ago with 12-13 or more people getting killed in a single accident. Whole families in some cases. The field workers would take a POS like an Aerostar and pull the seats out of it, then 'install' crates to sit on, (holds more people), and use it to carpool to the fields. Yeah... that's safe, brilliant modifications people. Anyways, that kind of thing has tapered off for some reason, despite there being no safety checks still.
The laws here in Cali. also vary by region. Up in Tehachapi, where my Nissan is registered at, the smog laws are pretty relaxed and you only have to pass the exhaust emissions test, no underhood. Here in Bakersfield though, it's an underhood inspection too. I've gotta admit, I've bashed the shit out of that old truck and it passed BETTER than it should have. Not too shabby for a 200,000+ mile tin can eh?
The laws here in Cali. also vary by region. Up in Tehachapi, where my Nissan is registered at, the smog laws are pretty relaxed and you only have to pass the exhaust emissions test, no underhood. Here in Bakersfield though, it's an underhood inspection too. I've gotta admit, I've bashed the shit out of that old truck and it passed BETTER than it should have. Not too shabby for a 200,000+ mile tin can eh?
panzershreck
04-14-2004, 12:27 AM
only emissions testing here in TN once a year, pretty easy to pass (only have to idle engine during reading, no need above that to test) and only $10 for the test, then a little more for the tags, no biggie (also no car inspections, only thing they care about is that all your lights work, if they dont work the police will pull you over and notify you, no fine or otherwise, other obvious but minor damage warrants fines but they usually dont give them out... more damaged and the car is illegal to be put on the road i believe)
Shortbus
04-14-2004, 12:31 AM
Arizona Tests every two years, actually I think it is only in Maricopa county. The fee is around 20.00 bucks or so, though I don't remeber since my 2003 is exempt from smog checks. Only the older shit has to be checked I think 97 and older could be wrong though.
whttrshpunk
04-14-2004, 12:52 AM
Alabama= No safety tests, no emissions tests, no anti-mod laws. Nothing. Gooooooooo Dirty South! :D
Aruba27
04-14-2004, 01:44 AM
Texas isn't too bad, once a year, 12 bucks. they make sure your tires aren't too bald, check wipers, lights, horn, make sure the steering is workin properly, and they do a very imformal test of teh exhaust noise, they just rev it and make a decision. the biggest things you fail on is usually tires (i've failed twice) and the second biggest one is usually a light or a horn, i've seen lots fail due to not having a proper horn... but i think you can get a ghetto one at autozone for like 7 bucks that mounts on the dash... i have a few friends with those now...
http://www.campushook.com/users/5228/images/180285.original.jpg
Sounds like crap.. but it passes!
http://www.campushook.com/users/5228/images/180285.original.jpg
Sounds like crap.. but it passes!
Toksin
04-14-2004, 02:23 AM
Minitrans in newspeak. . .
sorry, couldn't help myself
doubleplus goodjoker :thumbsup:
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength
sorry, couldn't help myself
doubleplus goodjoker :thumbsup:
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength
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