American Exotics

Which one would you take and why?




2003 SVT Mustang Cobra
2003 Corvette Z06
2003 Dodge Viper SRT-10

i would chose the srt-10.....its the fastest car here both in the 1/4 and twisties....and the most exclusive....

also its the best one in the lineup that fits the exotic tag....the mustang IMO its far from being and exotic.....

I dont think the Z06 or the Cobra is an American Exotic.

Originally posted by GTStang
I dont think the Z06 or the Cobra is an American Exotic.

i agree

they are very fast cars.....but they are too cheap and their design is not extreme enough.....qualities that wold make a car exotic......

SRT-10 mainly because there are fewer of them.

Originally posted by Neutrino
i would chose the srt-10.....its the fastest car here both in the 1/4 and twisties....and the most exclusive....

also its the best one in the lineup that fits the exotic tag....the mustang IMO its far from being and exotic.....

Took the words right out of my mouth.

ummm, before I got to the poll, I would have taken the Saleen S7R over the Mosler MT900, Callaway Corvette, and Hennesey Viper.

Of the group, I'd do for the Corvette because of the superior handling and brakes over the Viper.

Originally posted by kfoote
ummm, before I got to the poll, I would have taken the Saleen S7R over the Mosler MT900, Callaway Corvette, and Hennesey Viper.

Of the group, I'd do for the Corvette because of the superior handling and brakes over the Viper.

The Saleen S7 is a design rip off from the Mclaren F1. Also seeing the first generation S7s at LeMans I must say they were crap.

Also the Viper SRT-10 stops in a shorter distance and holds a higher slalom speed than the Corvette. So. . . .

Viper SRT-10...when it comes out in coupe form

Originally posted by Polygon


The Saleen S7 is a design rip off from the Mclaren F1. Also seeing the first generation S7s at LeMans I must say they were crap.

Also the Viper SRT-10 stops in a shorter distance and holds a higher slalom speed than the Corvette. So. . . .

If you're going to do a design rip off, the McLaren F1 is a pretty good car to start with. However, having seen the two on several occasions, there are a lot of design differences. The only reason the S7R was not competitive with the Corvettes at LeMans was because of Saleen not meeting homologation regulations and being penalized as a result.

The Viper is better than the Z06 in transitions between corners,but the corvette is much better balanced in steady state cornering. The shorter stopping distance has more to do with the larger tires on the Viper than the use of the brakes. From higher speeds, and in repeated threshold braking, the brakes on the Viper fade a lot more quickly than on the Corvette.

Originally posted by kfoote


If you're going to do a design rip off, the McLaren F1 is a pretty good car to start with. However, having seen the two on several occasions, there are a lot of design differences. The only reason the S7R was not competitive with the Corvettes at LeMans was because of Saleen not meeting homologation regulations and being penalized as a result.



I don't like rip offs no matter who they are from. And they are still too alike for me to ignore. The problem with the S7 in LeMans was they fact that they kept blowing engines. They weren't at all reliabe.

Originally posted by kfoote


The Viper is better than the Z06 in transitions between corners,but the corvette is much better balanced in steady state cornering. The shorter stopping distance has more to do with the larger tires on the Viper than the use of the brakes. From higher speeds, and in repeated threshold braking, the brakes on the Viper fade a lot more quickly than on the Corvette.



I'll quote someone elses posts instead that make the point and prove you very, very wrong.

Originally posted by Radracer
You guys who think the z06 turns faster times than a viper, stock vs stock are obviously uniformed. Please do a search, any search where a viper and a vette, driven by the same person and you will be informed.

Amatuers and only amatuers will tell you that a vette is a better handling car than a viper. Why? A vette is an easier car to drive than a viper, so amatuers automatically assume it's "better". A race car on the other hand is not easy to drive fast! You can set a car up to drive easy around the turn by "slowing" it down. You do this by adding toe out and soft suspension. A true race car (like the viper) will be setup different and will not be so forgiving. So, if someone tells you a vette handles better than a viper, read this on his forehead...

"Amatuer"

This is really a meaningless discussion, all intelligent people who have owned both, driven or raced both, know the facts.

You will find that 75% of the viper owners are previous vette owners and have "stepped up" to the viper.

I have met 0 (nada, zilch) vette owners that are previous viper owners.

That alone should tell you something. People tend to step up to better and faster performance, not the other way around.

The viper won the lemans 3x in a row against the vette and has won most scca races this year against the vette.
Viper was pulled from lemans because the governing board decided they were too dominate and imposed many restrictions on the viper, such as intake restrictor (to reduce it's power down to at or below a vettes power) and weight and tire restrictions. THIS is why the viper is not at the top at Lemans the last two years.

Vipers are America's king of the hill, the very best in performance in power and handling. A few people (like those who have posted here) cannot accept that for whatever reason. Yet it wins and wins and wins and wins race after race, review after review. Even GM's top brass admit the corvette is not able the rightfully challenge the viper's king of the hill status. Why should you???? Yes, Mr. Lutz has in the works a "viper killer". Something that will challenge the viper in raw performance and handling. Until that day happens (if it happens) accept the fact that the Viper is the best performance vehicle this country has made to date. Bar none. Is the Z06 a great car? You bet it is, in every way. But it's not a viper, it plays 2nd fiddle to the viper in all performance aspects (even braking now that the srt is out).

It's a joke to call a viper a straight line performance vehicle. Couldn't be further from the truth. In fact it was designed as a road race car, not a 1/4 mile king although it does fairly well there too. Even though it wasn't geared or designed for 1/4 mile tracks it BLOWS the z06 away by nearly 1/2 second which is a significant margin. (average, some tests are more than that)

The viper has a slalom rating HIGHER than the vette. (better cornering and balance ability) and the viper has a higher rating on the skidpad than the vette. (better roadholding ability).

If someone would like to post here any proof to the contrary, such as a road test by ANY reputable organization that shows the vette having a faster or higher skidpad or slalom rating, then PLEASE do so.

THIS IS A CHALLENGE!

Otherwise go try to brainwash people elsewhere. It's not going to work here. I'm a republican, not a democrat so I don't go for that misleading information crap.

Originally posted by Radracer
Oh and one more thing.

For those viper haters/z06 lovers out there who keep saying the z06 handles better then the viper.

What is your take on the latest test results by Justin Bell (corvette race car driver and race school operator)? He test drove all the latest supercars. Justin put each car through a series of tests, including laps on a road course and braking test.

Now according to you guys, the vette would win right? It's a better handling car and it's being driven by one of the world's BEST corvette drivers. No question the vette would win right???? ????


WRONG! The viper spanked the vette all around the track, every time by several seconds each lap. And it bested the corvettes brakes as well.


My question is, what have you got to say?

Do you admit the viper is indeed a better race car, a better handling sports car?

No, I doubt it because this is not about reason, it's about emotion.

You LIKE the vette because you own one or your friend owns one, so they MUST be a better car. You WANT to believe it's faster.


There just is no arguing this point, can't you see? It's like the OJ trial, even if they would have had a video tape of OJ killling those two innocent people, the jury would have aquitted. Why? Because it was an emotional issue, NOT one of reason. They WANTED to believe he was innocent, despite the facts, despite the truth.

The viper is a better performance vehicle.

Originally posted by Radracer
Hopefully, this will enlighten all those who are uninformed and have only heard "retoric" on the z06 vs viper handling debate.

This test was performed by JUSTIN BELL (a well known and respected Corvette racecar driver) This should at least kill the "but in the hands of a better driver, the vette would win" argument.

What have the z06 die hards to say to this?

I got this from another site that was promoting the lambo position so some of the numbers are missing although the order is correct.

NOT ONE test result showed the Z06 AHEAD of the Viper. I find this amazing. The viper wins or ties the z06 in every catagory.


0-60
MT900 3.13 sec
Murci 3.51
Viper
575M
CL55
ZO6
EVO
Cobra
XKR

1/4 Mile Standing
MT900 11.02 sec @126.88
Murci [email protected]
Viper
575M
CL55
ZO6
Cobra
Evo
XKR

60-0
Viper 97ft
MT900 100
ZO6 105
EVO 106
Murci 111
CL55
XKR
575M
Cobra

0-100-0
MT900 10.98
Viper 12.75
Murci 12.71
ZO6
575M
CL55
Cobra
Evo
XKR

Standing Mile
MT900 [email protected]
Murci [email protected]
Viper
575M
ZO6
CL55
Cobra
XKR
Evo

100-0
Viper 274ft
MT900 275
ZO6 292
Evo 292
Murci 300
CL55
575M
Cobra
XKR

600 Foot Slalom
MT900 74.7
EVO 71.4
Viper 70.4
ZO6 70.4
575M 66.2
Murci 66.2
Cobra
XKR
CL55

Figure Eight
MT900 23.3 [email protected]'s
Viper [email protected]'s
Murci [email protected]'s
ZO6
Evo
575M
CL55
Cobra
XKR

Top Speed (limited by space)
Murci 193
CL55 (derestricted)
Viper
575M
ZO6
MT900
XKR
Cobra
Evo
F-150

I know that was a really long read, but those are the facts.

Well i always thought vipers had the upper hand, but this enlightend my thinking. They are both great cars and i would like to have either one.

http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/02results/t1-grid.html

http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/02results/t1-race.html

http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/01results/t1-race.html

http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/00results/t1-thurs.html

http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/00results/t1-race.html

http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/99results/grid/t1-qual3.html

http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/99results/races/t1-prov.html

Since 1999, when the T1 class came into being, the only qualifying grid or race result for the SCCA Runoffs that the Viper has been faster than the Corvette (in 99 and 00, not even the C5 Z06) was qualifying in 2001, and I'll take Bobby Archer as a driver over a large portion of all road course drivers in the US.

For the 2001 season, Tom Lyons switched from a Viper to a Corvette, and he had been winning in the Viper in Nationals in the Northeast until the ZO6 came along.

One other thing to consider when looking at road tests: Tires. All cars are tested in magazines with the tires they come with from the factory. The tires that the Viper comes out with are wider than what comes on (and what will fit on) the Corvette. All the tests posted for braking are SINGLE stops with time to cool between runs. T1 requires any pad material on stock calipers, with the stock rotors and stock ABS. After the brakes on the viper get hot, they fade more quickly than those on the Corvette.

In STOCK form as the cars roll off the assembly line, the Viper is better handling and better braking than the Corvette. Put $2000 worth of maintainence items in the car, as one mormally would over the life of the vehicle, and the Corvette becomes a better handling car over time. All of the statistics posted show me that the Viper has a lot more power and better accelleration than the Z06. The only test that takes power totally out of the equation is the slalom, where in stock form with stock tires I have already conceded that the Viper has beter tires from the factory.

all i see is excuses thant the viper is faster......:redface:

I doubt I would call any of them an exotic besides maybe the viper. You can see new corvettes all the time and yes they (mostly) aren't the amazing z06, but that doesn't add much to it's pretige.

An exotic in my opinion is a car that is rare in all trims and while I've seen several vipers before, they are still very rare compared to the other two, probly mostly because of price which is most likely why all italian exotics are pretty rare. Though the lotus costs less than most and is rarer than all hell...import numbers is probly the reason for that and it doesn't have any hype around it.

Yeah, which is too bad because Lotus makes great cars. I would love to own one. There is an older Espirit for sale around here for $15,000. It looks just like the one from For Your Eyes Only. I want to buy it soo much, then I could drive around like James Bond. :biggrin:

Originally posted by Polygon
I want to buy it soo much, then I could drive around like James Bond. :biggrin:


and have to buy a new one every two days cuz you keep blowing it up......:lol:

I don't believe America has any exotics. Their quality of craftsmanship is too poor.

Originally posted by Neutrino



and have to buy a new one every two days cuz you keep blowing it up......:lol:

Yeah, occupational hazzards. :tongue:

Vette and Cobra are the furthest things you can have from exotics- so since both of those cars are void- I'm left with the Viper and whata good choice it is if yuo know how to drive a fucking car

i read somewhere that the dodge viper was engineered in germany. has anyone else read anything about it? anyways, i would pick the viper.

i read somewhere that the dodge viper was engineered in germany. has anyone else read anything about it? anyways, i would pick the viper.
Wouldn't suprise me- seeing Daimler Benz wear the pants in the Daimler-Chrysler partnership- I know that the original 8.0 V10 was a Lamborghini design built by Dodge- But I'm not sure about any German roots

I know the original Viper motors where an all Dodge creation because the original idea was to base it off there V-10 truck engine as much as possible. Although by the time things were done they only shared like 2 parts which were brackets lol. All this was done by Dodge engineers.

well the first dodge viper wasnt that fast for a v10 anyways. all i can remember about the car is that it was engineered by the germans, esp the design of the car.

hey i read somewhere that daimler chrysler is mixed with germans and americans, while chrysler/dodge is just american? can someone help me out on this?

I don't believe America has any exotics. Their quality of craftsmanship is too poor.

That was a completely ignorant thing to say. :disappoin

i read somewhere that the dodge viper was engineered in germany. has anyone else read anything about it? anyways, i would pick the viper.

The Viper was designed and built by Chrysler. Chrysler and Mercedes merged together. Thus why they are called Daimler Chrysler now. There are cars that are a joint effort between the two companies like the Crossfire but the Viper isn't one of them. Though it does have European design cues to it.

you sure? im sure i read somewhere that it was off of german engineering and design, that the germans were involved.

well i know that when chrysler joined mitsubishi, it was called dsm, and in the eclipse/talon was engineered by mitsubishi, outside appearance was designed by both, mostly by chrysler. dodge/chrysler stuffed mitsu designed engines as far back as early 80s, esp those turbocharged engines.

you sure? im sure i read somewhere that it was off of german engineering and design, that the germans were involved.

well i know that when chrysler joined mitsubishi, it was called dsm, and in the eclipse/talon was engineered by mitsubishi, outside appearance was designed by both, mostly by chrysler. dodge/chrysler stuffed mitsu designed engines as far back as early 80s, esp those turbocharged engines.

You're still wrong.

The Viper is an American effort, not German. The Viper has always been a Chrysler designed and built car. However; you're right that Chrysler does own 85% of Mitsubishi's voting stock which means that we might see a Dodge version of the Evo.

From the early 80s to the early 90s Chrysler had a lot of Turbocharged cars. None of the engines used were Mitsubishi engines. The only Mitsubishi engine used in the 80s was the 2.6L N/A which was used in K bodied cars, you know, the granny boxy looking cars; otherwise known as K cars. The engines used for turbocharging were the 2.2L and 2.5L I4 but mostly the 2.2L. They were designed by the same engineers that designed the 440ci engine. Those engines were designed and built by Chrysler. Chrysler used some Mitsubishi turbos for the 2.5L Turbo I cars, but the majority of turbos used were Garretts. Mitsubishi had no part in the design of the cars like mine. Also speaking of Germany some of the turbo cars like mine came with a Chrysler designed and Getrag of Germany manufactured five speeds known as the A-555 and A-568. Today the A-568 costs nearly $5,000 new.

The only Chrysler Turbo cars that had Mitsubishi engines in them were the Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, Dodge Stealth, and the Chrysler Conquest. All of those cars were rebadged Mitsubishis. Chrysler helped start the sport compact scene in the early 80s to the mid 90s before most anyone else was even turbocharging cars.

no, i said the germans were inolved, meaning that they helped in engineering and the design of the car. dont forget about the mitsubishi starion, it came in 2.0L turbo, and the 2.6L turbo motor, both mitsu engines.

Chrysler helped start the sport compact scene in the early 80s to the mid 90s before most anyone else was even turbocharging cars.


BMW started it in the 70s with the 2002Ti, then in the 80s Mazda, Nissan, Honda, Daihatsu and Subaru all had several turbo charged models, and of course in Europe Lancia, SAAB and Audi built quite a reputation out of Turbo Charging.
Chrysler was just another one of many companys useing it at the time, and was by no means a pioneer on a world scale, but certianly helped pioneer its use in the US.


As for the Viper being totaly American the story I have heard is the engine was developed in the US from the V10 deisel truck engine, but the basic chassis design was done by a German chassis enginering company.
But that still means 90% of the car including its final devlopement work was done by Crysler in America.

no, i said the germans were inolved, meaning that they helped in engineering and the design of the car. dont forget about the mitsubishi starion, it came in 2.0L turbo, and the 2.6L turbo motor, both mitsu engines.

I don't see your point here. The Starion/Conquest was never marketed as a Chrysler. Chrysler even put on the car that it was a Mitsubishi. Also the Starion was released in 1985, after Chrysler had already been turbocharging their cars.


BMW started it in the 70s with the 2002Ti, then in the 80s Mazda, Nissan, Honda, Daihatsu and Subaru all had several turbo charged models, and of course in Europe Lancia, SAAB and Audi built quite a reputation out of Turbo Charging.
Chrysler was just another one of many companys useing it at the time, and was by no means a pioneer on a world scale, but certianly helped pioneer its use in the US.


As for the Viper being totaly American the story I have heard is the engine was developed in the US from the V10 deisel truck engine, but the basic chassis design was done by a German chassis enginering company.
But that still means 90% of the car including its final devlopement work was done by Crysler in America.

Very true, but my point wasn't that they were a pioneer in turbocharging, and by no means on a world scale, but more to the point that they were one of the first manufactures that helped usher in the sport compact era.

GM was turbocharging various versions of its 3.8L V6 from the late 70's to the end of the Grand National's production (1987). Chrysler wasn't the only American brand doing it. GM's weren't "sport compact cars," but they were performance cars nonetheless.

Turbocharging wasn't my main point here, yeesh. My point was the sport compact car! Besides, GM wasn't using forced induction on its smaller cars and cars with four cylinders.

Anyhow; GM was using superchargers, not turbos. They didn't use turbos until the mid 80s in the GNX. Please, somone correct me if I'm wrong.

Sorry to sway off topic, just wanted to point out Chrysler wasn't the only American manufacturer making turbo performance cars around early 1980's.

From http://www.gnregistry.org/turbo.htm:

As early as 1978 Buick began to bring their Indy Turbocharged V6 racing development work into the showroom. The company introduced the 3.8L V6 Turbo in two production cars. One of these was the well-known 1978 Regal Turbo Sport Coupe; the second was the 1978 LeSabre Turbo Sport Coupe. [...] In any case, the 1978 turbocharged V6 LeSabre Sport Coupe was a rare car. The same problem is faced in estimating specific production totals for the Regal Turbo Sport Coupe but the total number of Regals sold was 236,652 and the Turbo Sport Coupe was certainly not a rare model.

[...] The LeSabre Turbo Sport Coupe continued to be available in 1979, and 3,582 were produced. Two other models of Buick became available in 1979 with the V6 Turbo engine, the Century Turbo Coupe and the Riviera S-Type Turbo.

That went on for a few more years, and then came the 1983 turbo 3.8L v6 Grand National/T-Type, which was made until 1987.

GM basically had a decade of experience turbocharging their various production 3.8Ls. It probably switched to supercharging in 90's for production and reliability reasons, who knows.

I don't see your point here. The Starion/Conquest was never marketed as a Chrysler. Chrysler even put on the car that it was a Mitsubishi. Also the Starion was released in 1985, after Chrysler had already been turbocharging their cars.

im just saying, those are good cars you know?

Very true, but my point wasn't that they were a pioneer in turbocharging, and by no means on a world scale, but more to the point that they were one of the first manufactures that helped usher in the sport compact era.

well you said before most anyone else was even turbocharging, look below, when infact a lot of them were.

Chrysler helped start the sport compact scene in the early 80s to the mid 90s before most anyone else was even turbocharging cars.

im just saying, those are good cars you know?

well you said before most anyone else was even turbocharging, look below, when infact a lot of them were.

1. The Starion/Conquest was not a good car. For having a 2.6L Turbocharged engine they were underpowered slugs. They weren't at all reliable and they had a crummy interior. The only thing they had going for them was looks.

2. I never said that Chrysler was a pioneer in turbocharging. I simply said they were doing before most other manufactures were. I am right, because at that time 90% of the cars being made were not turbocharged and that percentage was even higher in the United States.

The Starion/Conquest was not a good car. For having a 2.6L Turbocharged engine they were underpowered slugs. They weren't at all reliable and they had a crummy interior. The only thing they had going for them was looks.

starion 2.0 was a good performance car in my opinion, it was considered the fastest 2.0L car when it came out. the 2.6 can be modified to go really fast, i think they re both good platforms to build on, esp with the 2.0 motor, which is similar to the eclipse motor.

Trust me, I have driven them, they are slugs stock. The 2.6L engine was a pile of crap. You could make it faster but it was already unreliable. Making it faster would only compound that. The 2.0L was the engine they put in the non-turbo cars. It was even slower and was still unreliable. Those cars never sold well here or in Japan. I do give them credit for helping in the sport compact scene since the Starion had a lot to do with Toyota making the Supra. It also pushed a lot of other companies to follow suite.

That was the only thing the Starion was good for.

Trust me, I have driven them, they are slugs stock. The 2.6L engine was a pile of crap. You could make it faster but it was already unreliable. Making it faster would only compound that. The 2.0L was the engine they put in the non-turbo cars. It was even slower and was still unreliable. Those cars never sold well here or in Japan. I do give them credit for helping in the sport compact scene since the Starion had a lot to do with Toyota making the Supra. It also pushed a lot of other companies to follow suite.

That was the only thing the Starion was good for.

i dont think the starion was that slow, it was quick enough for its time, and im not sure if we got this version, but the 4g63bt 2.0L turbo was considered the fastest 2.0L car at the time. you can easily make it go fast, and if the original motor is blown or no good, you can easily swap in any 4g63 eclipse motor, its a direct swap.

True, but you'll want to swap the engine, transmission, gearbox, and axles. I would have to change the seats as well, they were like sitting on bricks. They were great looking cars though.

Ok, back to the subject of American Exotics. I wasn't sure if this was still the same thread considering the fact that the last two pages don't really relate to the thread, but what the hell.
In my opinion, I'm a Z06 fan, it has nothing to do with me hating Viper's, or Cobra's (i respect them both). But, this thread is asking for an american exotic, and a Cobra/Z06 is not an american exotic so i cannot go with either of them. The Viper is the only american exotic in this discussion so i guess that made it kinda easy. When you consider 20% of vettes produced when the Z06's came out were in fact Z06's. In 2002 that number was even higher. I think a bit over 8000 Z06's were produced in 2002. Cobra's im guessing were even higher. And it makes sense that an 80k car having less sales than a 35k, 50k vehicle.

I'll have to admit that the Dodge finally made a refined version of the Viper. I like the overall performance ratings I've seen on the SRT-10, compared to the earlier Viper. The earlier Viper just wasn't nearly as good as the new one, brakes were a big problem on the old one. But with the new SRT-10 rolling on 14in. pizza discs, powered by 4piston brembo's, hell that thing better stop fast as hell, considering the massive as hell tires their on. I like big tires thou, their more appealing to the eye especially from behind.
I honestly don't even think the new Viper should be compared to a Z06 just because it has such a edge on it now. Hell pushing almost 100hp more is kinda like comparing a 300hp 300z to a Z06. (and 300z's run like 14 flats.) What I don't understand is why in the hell can't the viper do better than its posting, with so much damn torque, heller fat wheels, you'd think the viper should be busting balls, and it really isn't a crap load heavier than the Z06, I think the new viper is running like 3300 or so.
My vote is the Viper for the american Exotic no question about it.

What I don't understand is why in the hell can't the viper do better than its posting, with so much damn torque, heller fat wheels, you'd think the viper should be busting balls

I was wondering the same thing myself.

Because, that is not what it was designed to do. The Viper was designed to be a track car. It doesn't have a very short gearing ratio.

You mean that the gearing is much taller?

The Z06 and the Viper are running on the same T56 transmission. Their gearing is slightly different, but its pretty close. Shift points are pretty close to each other to. Viper just has lots more torque to run through the gears over the Z06. Viper and torque is like stink on shit, it just doesn't get much better than an 8.3Liter V10 in the torque category. The funny thing is that it gets just as good gas milage as the 3.6 liter modena lol. Must be that 20 OHV technology hehe. Image if a Viper engine was designed as a 4 or even 5 valve per cylinder engine, you'd probably have to fill the gas tank every 100miles or so......that wouldn't be fun, but i'm sure the immense power would. It disappoints me that a Viper is so damn torquey somtimes (wouldn't have anything to do with me being a Z06 fan.....hehe) but you gotta appreciate the beast. Hopfully the C6 version Z06 will compare better to the SRT-10, which it probably will.

K, i'm a Vette guy, not a ford guy, not a dodge or chevy guy a corvette and old muscle cars, guy. nothing to me will be better than a classic corvette. However i do find it funny that it took dodge OVER TEN FRIGGIN LONG ASS STUPID PATHETIC YEARS!!!!!!!!!! To top chevy in whos got that bad ass muscle car, and u what? they're only going to get to savor that flavor for a few yrs. When that new C6 ZO6 comes out, dear god. its gonna send them viper and mustang boys back to the drawing board. even though when the new stang comes out, they're gonna turn their dejected faces back to their boards and find out how many more superchargers their gonna have to put on their cars, cause thats all they know how to do, look at corvette and their fine engineering, wow viper, you handle good for a car whose nose is just a heavy pain the ass yes, but you put out all that power through a V-10, of course you're gonna beat that small block V-8, but everytime chev puts out their corvette, it sends viper and mustang back to the drawing board to figure out how much more they can do to keep up w/ corvette. And why spend so much damn more for so little more? when it comes to viper and corvette? viper will always cost more to insure too. JESUS C. Go figure. but hey, you got the money to waste, go for it. just remember how long it took them to FINALLY beat chevy. just wait for 2005, just wait

K, i'm a Vette guy, not a ford guy, not a dodge or chevy guy a corvette and old muscle cars, guy. nothing to me will be better than a classic corvette. However i do find it funny that it took dodge OVER TEN FRIGGIN LONG ASS STUPID PATHETIC YEARS!!!!!!!!!! To top chevy in whos got that bad ass muscle car, and u what? they're only going to get to savor that flavor for a few yrs. When that new C6 ZO6 comes out, dear god. its gonna send them viper and mustang boys back to the drawing board. even though when the new stang comes out, they're gonna turn their dejected faces back to their boards and find out how many more superchargers their gonna have to put on their cars, cause thats all they know how to do, look at corvette and their fine engineering, wow viper, you handle good for a car whose nose is just a heavy pain the ass yes, but you put out all that power through a V-10, of course you're gonna beat that small block V-8, but everytime chev puts out their corvette, it sends viper and mustang back to the drawing board to figure out how much more they can do to keep up w/ corvette. And why spend so much damn more for so little more? when it comes to viper and corvette? viper will always cost more to insure too. JESUS C. Go figure. but hey, you got the money to waste, go for it. just remember how long it took them to FINALLY beat chevy. just wait for 2005, just wait



if you could just add to your post the loterry numbers for next month would be nice too

K, i'm a Vette guy, not a ford guy, not a dodge or chevy guy a corvette and old muscle cars, guy. nothing to me will be better than a classic corvette. However i do find it funny that it took dodge OVER TEN FRIGGIN LONG ASS STUPID PATHETIC YEARS!!!!!!!!!! To top chevy in whos got that bad ass muscle car, and u what? they're only going to get to savor that flavor for a few yrs. When that new C6 ZO6 comes out, dear god. its gonna send them viper and mustang boys back to the drawing board. even though when the new stang comes out, they're gonna turn their dejected faces back to their boards and find out how many more superchargers their gonna have to put on their cars, cause thats all they know how to do, look at corvette and their fine engineering, wow viper, you handle good for a car whose nose is just a heavy pain the ass yes, but you put out all that power through a V-10, of course you're gonna beat that small block V-8, but everytime chev puts out their corvette, it sends viper and mustang back to the drawing board to figure out how much more they can do to keep up w/ corvette. And why spend so much damn more for so little more? when it comes to viper and corvette? viper will always cost more to insure too. JESUS C. Go figure. but hey, you got the money to waste, go for it. just remember how long it took them to FINALLY beat chevy. just wait for 2005, just wait

Right.

Let me point something out to you. There was this gas crisis in the early 70s, you know, the one that killed the muscle car. Anyhow; this meant that everyone was making econo boxes, even the good old Vette and Mustang were pretty damn slow in the early to mid 80s and Chrysler was making 4 cylinder cars that were able beat them. Then in 1995 the Viper was created. So it didn't take Chrysler 10 years, they were beating Chevy for a while. Also I would like to point out that the SRT-10 Viper is the roadster, the show off car. The serious Z06 Coupe is beaten by a convertible. Yes, let's wait for 2005 when the Viper Competition Coupe comes out. Then we'll see what the C6 Z06 has to offer. Dodge was at the drawing board with this car before the C6 was even announced. Get over it.

Also, if all you care about is performance when you buy a car then you're a moron. Performance isn't all you get for the extra $30,000. Think before you speak. By that logic, my LeBaron GTC was a far better buy than a Z06, which I would agree, but I am sure you wouldn't.

Performance isn't all you get for the extra $30,000. Think before you speak. By that logic, my LeBaron GTC was a far better buy than a Z06, which I would agree, but I am sure you wouldn't.

Damn straight! The Viper's fit and finish is rock solid compared to that plastic raggity car.

I for some reason thought the viper was intoduced in '92, my mistake. but the past doesnt matter, the cars the 70's are irrelevent in this debate. To me this debate was over, whos better out of these three current cars. I dont hate any of these three cars, but i do favor one. But fact remains the same, it took dodge a while to come out w/ a good, good viper. when the first corvettes and mustangs came out, people were nuts over em in a few yrs. It didnt take em 8 or so yrs. The new viper is a damn fine car yes, finally. but i honestly still believe the Z has the edge in these three cars, the vette and mustang have what a lot of people call, bang for the buck, viper doesnt have that. And the only other fact i still stand by is that chevy has better engineering in their motor and powertrain. the motor is a free'r reving engine and more responsive. I think they're doin an awesome job of getting that much hp out of a N/A V-8. And when the 500+ hp new Z comes out, i think it will still be the small block V-8 and w/ no blower of any kind. Last thing best about the Corvette, it has the best power and speed potential out of all three. And sexy beast, you aparently have not ridden in a ZO6, its not riggety or rickety whatever u called it, even if u have and you absolutely HATE corvettes, you would say it is built together well and rides nice. but you're gonna still not like it because you dont WANT to like it. I guess bottom point the real winner is the person who buys which ever one when they do it. If ur dream car is a viper, you're gonna love em no matter what, same w/ corvette and mustang. Nobody is gonna change anyones mind here no matter what.

I haven't driven the Z06 or the SRT-10. I like both cars, I just happen to think that the Viper is the better of the two for a lot of reasons. While Chevy has great engineering I don't feel it is better than Chrysler, then again that is just my opinion. You're right, the Viper RT-10 came out in 1992, I don't know why I said 1995. I am also sorry if I came off a little brash, I guess I just took your post a little too serious. I am just tired of a lot of the Z06 hype that goes on around here. I also tire of the price debate.

As I said though, I would take the Viper as I think it is better than the Z06 in many aspects.

The Viper and Z06 both recieve gobs of hyp. Granted the interior of a Z06 is far outdated. The Viper on the otherhand has a much higher quality and craftsmanship over the Z06. Try producing 8000+ Vipers, and try selling them with that high quality and craftsmanship, thats a different story. The Z06 wasn't designed to be bling bling in every aspect, its a true sports car, interior quality doesn't reflect performance. And a quality interior doesn't sum up a more luxirious ride, the Viper is far from a comfortable ride compared to other high quality cars. If the Viper were made of plastic it would probably melt. (lol, im just exagerating) People don't buy a Viper because of its prestine interior, hell its got a V10 pushing 500hp! Buy a Bentley if you want a high quality interior. I think people buy a Viper because it will ownnnnnnnnnnn almost anything they pass, and they will pass it, including the Z06.
I've also heard that track persistency with the Viper isn't as good as the Z06. The brakes are a hell of a lot better, but they still have a tendency to fade. Might have somthing to due with the weight and lack of ventilation to keep the brakes cooler. Other than that, the Viper is pulling like a raped ape, always. Its ability to handle is superb, even outsting the Z06 in almost every category.

A Viper is 80k, but what the hell does that matter? If your buying a Viper, then more than likely your not sweeting your pocket, so more power to you. Same thing goes for the Z06. People buy pairs of these just in case one starts to act up. Money is not the issue, you pay for what you get.

It all comes down to preference. Viper ethus. will always want a viper over a Z06, and the same for the Vette owners. (usually, nothing is 100% though)

I do agree that once the hardtop viper, and the C6 Z06 comes out, we will all be blown away. Get ready European tuners, because america is coming with fire!

You know... That last point is a great point. The Z06 and the Viper are both getting ready to spank the European cars. What out there has numbers like the Viper OR the Vette... and still remains under 150 Grand? Even the GT40 is a car worth mentioning, though the price tag and numbers dont impress me too much when the Vette and the Viper do exist. Its good to see the American cars putting out such great numbers though, and I look forward to seeing what the Europeans will try and do to keep the competition tight. (I just personally love the fact that the Z06 puts up numbers almost identical to one of them Modena's.)

The next few years are going to be great years for American Muscle. The competition coupe and the release of the C6... An American car enthusiast's dreams, coming true.

How very true. :sunglasse

You have to give the engineers of the big three a little more credit though. You can't treat them like they don't know how to build a powerful car. They're just designing these particular cars to fit into certain points in the market. All of them could build 1000hp engines on pump gas if they wanted to, but they're designed the way they are for a reason. They also have warranties, costs, parts interchangeability and so on to worry about.

There are more factors that go into building an engine than just HP. 9ball is right, they have to design engines that are affordable, somewhat fuel efficient, will last, and have parts that are easy to get. Now on the engineering aspect of them i would say that they are slacking in comparison to european and japanese companies (namely BMW and Honda) just look at what BMW has done with their valvetronic system and i think VTEC and all the engineering behind cars like the s2000 goes without saying. But i could be proven wrong wiht the new c6 comming out.

And with the z06 putting up numbers on par with a modena you have to look at the market for ferarris. People dont buy ferarris to race them, they buy them to pimp around in them and be a badass because they have one. Now people do that to some extent in a z06, but you see vettes everyday and typically most poeple cant tell the difference between a z06 and a base vette.

And when you compare a viper to a vette, you also have to understand that a z06 still gets good mileage (not that they really care anyway) but most people that buy vettes drive them because they want a fast car that they can stilll drive to work in. When you buy a viper most people just tear it up, but that might just be a gross generalization.

GM is pushing their Displacement on Demand technology for their upcoming v8s (and v6s?). When the engines are in certain conditions that do not require full performance, DoD deactivates four of the eight cylinders by turning off their valves to saves gas and lessen pollution. The C6 Corvette and some future trucks are rumored to have DoD.

I read that certain Cadillacs of some decades ago had this technology too, but it wasn't successful because the engineering was still immature. GM is going to give it another try, I guess.

I dunno how much that would really help unless they had a crank that could allow for it to be separated or else it would just drag the pistons and cause more friction (aka friction and vaccuum loss). Just get valvetronic :evillol: and it will be ok. Valvetronic is the answer to vaccuum loss, but very pricey.

Yea the old caddys had it, but it went into the shitter.

GM is pushing their Displacement on Demand technology for their upcoming v8s (and v6s?). When the engines are in certain conditions that do not require full performance, DoD deactivates four of the eight cylinders by turning off their valves to saves gas and lessen pollution. The C6 Corvette and some future trucks are rumored to have DoD.

I read that certain Cadillacs of some decades ago had this technology too, but it wasn't successful because the engineering was still immature. GM is going to give it another try, I guess.

hondas involved with designing some of GM's new engines, like that new v6's in those suvs, but thats the only engine i know of that involved honda. this might explain why gm is comming out with that displacement on demand thing.

Which v6 would that be? I know the Saturn VUE Redline uses Accord's V6... there's another Honda-involed motor?

My guess is that GM is not going to invest much into hybrid, unlike the major Japanese companies and Ford, so GM is going to do bring back DoD in place of it. Just a guess.

You are right about the Ferrari's owners. Ive always been different though. I could care less what anybody thinks about what I drive anyways, or what I do with anything. Ive never tried to impress anyone with "things". I'll admit I am extremely biased in many aspects, being born and raised into loving GM. And the Z06 to me is like a dream come true. Its an obtainable goal for me to reach for. Power, performance, handling... Pure unadulterated speed. All from Chevy.

I dont know about anyone else... But to me... There are two great things in life... Women... and Fast cars. (Some would say fast women and fast cars) Besides if one of the great things pisses you off, you can go take off in the other. :) Driving through the mountains, pushing my car, living on the edge, is a greater high than any drug, and just as dangerous I guess. But it is MY drug of choice. So a Ferrari to ME, which for that much of a $$ difference... doesnt have the value, for the numbers it brings.
So the Z06 to me is my goal, and thats why I would choose that over ANY car if I had the choice.