Fastest

I am pretty new F1's, but am very willing to learn. A friend of mine claims that Lamborghini and Ferari both have a model that are faster than any mclaren. currently i cant really prove him wrong, (i know he is full of Sh*t). what is the fastest model of lambo and ferari and how fast is it? and what is the fastest mclaren and how fast does it go. thank you in advance and **please do not flame.**

Are you speaking about acceleration or all out top speed.

Top speed - he's wrong, the McLaren tops them all hands down. Even the lower claim of 231mph can't be touched by any production Ferrari or Lamborghini. The high end 240.1mph they got at Nardo is simply off the chart and may only be bettered by the new Bugatti Veyron, but even that remains to be seen.

Acceleration - The Enzo is mighty close - depending on the test you look at or who's numbers you believe or even which version of the McLaren F1 you want to compare against - it ends up being a mighty close race. The McLaren still has it as the speed increases though.

Also, how important is the 0-60mph time in a car capable of four times that speed?? :biggrin:

Lamborghini doesn't have anything close to the McLaren as far as acceleration is concerned. Surprisingly, even though the Diablo and Murcielago offer AWD to put all the horsepower to the ground, the cars are just too heavy to really make use of it and end up being slower.

Credit Gordon Murray's design philosphy on the F1 - that they shouldn't use a 5mm nut if a 4mm would do the same job. Every ounce that went into the car was micro-managed by him resulting a very high HP-to-weight ratio and also in a very fast car. Like I said, the Enzo is closest, but still not nearly as light as the F1.

>8^)
ER

Originally posted by Peloton25
Are you speaking about acceleration or all out top speed.

Top speed - he's wrong, the McLaren tops them all hands down. Even the lower claim of 231mph can't be touched by any production Ferrari or Lamborghini. The high end 240.1mph they got at Nardo is simply off the chart and may only be bettered by the new Bugatti Veyron , but even that remains to be seen.
>8^)
ER
Errrr I dont want to start an argument here but what about the Koenigsegg CC? :confused: I think it has a better chance of getting close/equaling the F1 (in top speed) than that Bugatti thing :wink: :biggrin:

'Segg :cool:

thanks for such quick responses.

Sorry - yeah I guess the Koenigsegg is up there too. Really, I try to stay out of these "this car is faster, better, cooler" types of threads. You just can't cover all the variables.

To be fair - no magazine or group has ever tested all of these cars side by side on the same track and the same day to make for an unbiased comparison. I doubt that will ever happen either so it's hard to be accurate with absolute numbers anyway.

In the end, does it really matter? I personally don't think so. I can admire the Koenigsegg, Bugatti, Enzo, Pagani and several other possible competitors, but in my mind the McLaren will always reign supreme. Call me biased and I won't deny it... :biggrin: Unlike some people though, you won't find me padding the numbers to support my claims of greatness and I won't argue with someone all day long to get them to agree with me either.

>8^)
ER

Just a slight correction, the track was Ehra-Lessien where the McLaren F1 recorded it's top speed of 391 km/h, which is actually 242.4 miles per hour. McLaren averaged this in with wind speed, rpm and known gearing, and factored that the measurement could be slightly off. So 386 or so rounds out right about 240 mph.

Your right, I normally try and steer as far away as possible from these fastest accelerating/highest top speed threads too, it nearly always ends up in an argument. :biggrin2: But it'd seem rather odd if I didn't try to stick up for the Swedish super egg ;)

'Segg :cool:

Thanks for the correction RedOctober - you're exactly right and I even knew that already. I must be getting old... ;)

Off Topic kinda: Actually I was trying to think of how I confused myself and I realized that Ehra-Leissen is VW's track and VW made that new version of the W12 supercar which they named the Nardo (another track - in Italy however) and somehow I got those wires crossed. I wonder why VW wouldn't name it after their own track - I mean wouldn't everyone want to drive an Ehra-Leissen?? :biggrin:

>8^)
ER

Just tryin a be the best newbie i can be

agree with above.. it will be a great day when some Forumla 1 drivers shoot-out the current supercars. ie: same track, same fuel, same tyre heat, same drivers, and ONLY number plated cars with catalytic converters ON that exceed >215MPH.. rules out most except4; McF1, Enzo, Bugatti Veyron, Zonda, Koenigsegg, and some say the Salem7 and new GT40 (the R street version) on paper..

what we do know before this happens; Mr Murray was on fire in the late 80's, early 90's, with his design vision and engineering logic. he built a production car with an F1 spec powerplant achieving 100+Bhp/per litre, and BMW achieved this goal in 1991/2. to Ferrari's credit, they have also achieved this milestone with the Enzo in 2003, some 10 years later.. industry test drivers and experts have already agreed; the F1 still has more low down torque due to its power to weight ratio of 1290 kg (2840 lb)/468 kW (627 bhp)/11.0:1 ratio vs 3009lb/660bhp/11.2. the F1 has a higher top-end speed because it HOLDS THE RECORD and Ferrari (and others) have already TRIED to beat it unsuccessfully, before the Enzo launch.. also interesting how Ferrari "also" decided a 60 degree V12 is they key!

BUT; re: the Enzo carbon-brakes... "the Enzo brakes like no road car ever seen on this earth" to quote Ralph Schumacher in the German press after thrashing his bro's Enzo around Hokkenheim.. bearing in mind the journo's/experts echo this, and Ralph owns a McLaren F1, this illustrates the two cars should have a great race on a track together if it happens.

Soul Assasin >> FYI.. Mr Pagini Zonda is ex-Lambo Countach/Diablo SV design team.. the Zonda grudge is 2 fold.. Pagini's single goal was to build a car that smashed his previous employers for speed and looks, and had nice luggage for the Mrs.. the Zonda has smoked the Diablo in most tests I've heard about, because it is lighter, has an F1 chassis setup, and lastly, the boys at Mercedes AMG have held a 10 year grudge with BMW Motorsport who built the McLaren F1 powerplant.. this was their chance to hit back etc.. the new CS12 7.0 litre is poetry!

having a similiar situation at the moment with a friend in the US who recently gave me a bashing with this paragraph after i belted him with F1 the "quickest road car" rhetoric.. i welcome your advice, responses, and validation on this matter;

"""For the record the world's fastest street legal car is not the McLaren F1, it's the 1988 Twin Turbo Callaway Sledgehammer Corvette. At 254 mph, it smokes the F1 by 14 mph (which is virtually running by) with all the amenities of home (A/C, etc. thank you) and runs the quarter mile in 10.6 seconds to the F1's 11.6.""""

what do you know more about ralph schumacher and his F1?
are you 100% sure it's true, do you know a chassis nr and a license plate. because at this years monaco grand prix, two f1's were spotted, with the license plates: M66 MCL and R66MCL.....
so maybe michael has one as well?
more info pleeaaase

thanks

maarten

Edit: the R66MCL car is silver with a hdf kit, and it has different headlights, the M66 MCL is a GTR, which has probably been given the LM treatment, and it's definately not #11R(swedish) or #07R(oakfields)

The Callaway Sledgehammer did indeed eclipse the 254mph mark and was apparently a road legal car as it was driven from the Callaway Cars headquarters in Old Lyme, Connecticut all the way to the Transportation Research Center in Ohio where that test was done. The thing that sets it apart from the rest of the members of the crowd in my mind is that it wasn't a true production car - but more of a one-off techno-engineering example. To my knowledge, Callaway only built one or possibly two. Last I had heard, they had sold the original to a Japanese collector for roughly $400,000. I'm not trying to take anything away from the car or Reeves Callaway - I'm just pointing out that I feel it's in a different category than the rest. It's a little easier to build one of something and have it be very successful than it is to build an entire production run and not cut corners or make sacrifices.

The same can be said for the Dauer 962 which claims a 250mph top end. In my mind, it's a race car that has been adjusted for road use, not really a supercar in the true nature of the word as far as I'm concerned. It's still a fast car and apparently can be driven on the street in many European countries so you can't discount it too much. The TVR Speed 12 falls into a similar category - never really produced, but there were a few examples and it was supposed to have an enormous top end as well. These two cars have never been officially tested in the way that the McLaren F1 and Callaway were to my knowledge, so it's hard to put a lot of credibility into those speed claims.

Like I said though, I'm not here to argue or change anyone's mind. I'll just state things the way I see them. If someone else thinks the Callaway or the Dauer is the ultimate road car, that's fine with me. They won't be changing my mind though either. :D

= = = = =

Maarten - as to Ralf and/or Michael being an owner, it's certainly possible. Though in my opinion since neither driver competes in a McLaren Formula One car, I wonder how well that situation would go over with their bosses. :eek: At least Ralf's Formula One Car uses a BMW engine - so maybe he can get away with it. ;)

Many aren't aware that before Ralf competed in Formula One, he spent a season behind the wheel of an F1 GTR in the 1996 All Japan GT Championship series driving one of the Team Lark McLaren GTRs. He and his co-driver Naoki Hattori finished the season in second place behind the other Lark McLaren which was driven by John Neilsen and David Brabham. It was a very impressive success for him and McLaren. It really wouldn't surprise me if he chose to purchase a McLaren once he had the money. I'd love to confirm that the Schumacher brother's own those two cars - that would be awesome news. If anyone can confirm or deny that, I'd really appreciate it.

>8^)
ER

that's my problem exactly. Ralf may get away with it, but michael, so short after the introduction of the enzo, (a car that was build to be better than the mac)... i highly doubt it.
do you have any pics btw of the lark f1's i tried to find but i don't seem to get them.... and do you have pics of #04R, #08R, #13R, #14R, #15R and last but not least #18R. i have pics of the gulf cars, but i find it hard to sort them out.. if you can give me a clue, that'd be nice

rgrds


maarten

Photos of the short tail '96-spec Lark cars are very rare. There's only a few other liveries that I have less photos of. They were bothe '96-spec GTR's - #'s 13R & 14R. 13R wore race #60 and was the car driven by Schumacher and Hattori. 14R wore race #61 and was driven by Brabham and Neilsen. Both cars looked nearly identical except for the racing number.

Later on there would be long tailed '97-spec GTRs which would wear the Lark livery, and those are somewhat easier to find photos of.

>8^)
ER

I'll try to get to your other requests soon, but here is one shot of Ralf's Lark GTR - and btw they're all tiny just like this one... :(

thank you very much.
on the jap sites i also found lots a pics of 19R, but earlier years were much harder. have you ever heard of a site called p9.com
there are lots a pics on it when you search on google for mclaren gtr, but IE cant find the website, that's a shame, it were about 150 pics...

was quoted in the german press as these boys are heroes in their native german.. i will try and find the source as a mate emailed it to me about 3 months ago.. know it was a private track day -- no camera shots or photos allowed for the family BBQ etc etc.. the article cited the track stewards conversations "with both brothers" who were apparently dragging each other for a few hours of fun.. did ralph keep one of his Team Lark cars i wonder?

btw, great info on the Callaway Sledgehammer, its what i thought.. to be a production car by definition, i recall the various AA's and FIA define it as "more than 50 units being produced" including one crash test dummy vehicle slamming into the good old concrete wall.. :->

saw that thread on the Monaco citings, cant imagine Ferrari allowing Michael to drive a McLaren with his salary package.. ralph would not be a problem though --- as BMW widely market the worlds fastest road car fact "powered by" etc..

don't forget ralph is paid by williams nog by bmw. and the main concurrent in england of williams is still mclaren. and what car did montoyadrive when the franch cops cuaght him doping 204 km/h?
an m5?

williams and mclaren are companies that refine their product; they go for "best of breed" at the time.. be it honda, renault, merc or BMW.. contracts are contracts.. montoya and ralph have M5's as get around cars paid for and insisted on by BMW in their williams contracts; my references below were to a private track day only etc.. the boys are mclaren (coulthard etc) drive bombed CL and ML mercs etc.. coulthard as you probably know has got involved with the SLR final design revision (including ergonomics) and road testing phase..

as it happens, i have a colleague at work who is an old school mate of Montoya's.. his gargage at home (other than the M5 & 500+Bhp mini) is full of little rally fella's.. namely lancia beta, fiats and a bombed clio sport i am told. his mini has been in magazines after his pit crew went to work on it, for his birthday present, without telling him..

Hi,

Just wondering if you guys read the Febuary 2003 copy of EVO? its got an interview in it with Gordon Murray its pretty good (even if I do now think the guy has his head up his own ass) but yeah gives his opinions a a few of the new supercars and he actually likes the Zonda best, because its closest to what the F1 formula. If nobody has seen it I'll try and find it online or try and type it up and post it here for you all to see :)

Oh and there is a few photos of Mr Murray in what I assume to be the Mclaren offices, and over his left shoulder there is a picture in a frame, and its the same photogragh as Peloton25's avatar, so I'm going with the theory that he is actually Gordon Murray :iceslolan

But I put forward this theory...... the bugatti and the Mclaren made for 2 different markets? The Mclaren aim was to build "the best drivers car" and thats what Mclaren did, central driving position, no traction control or power steering or ABS or other electronic gizmos to get in the way and a great engine pushing you along. But you wouldn't exactly call it luxurious would you? sports seats (that apparently give you back ache after 10-15 minutes) arkward to get into, and slightly cramped you can see the people are gonna buy it for the way it drives and handles because its made for its handling.

But the Buggati went the other way, they realised people wouldn't use it everyday, they also realised that most people would never get the car above 180mph thats why it has a limiter, if you wanna go faster you call them and they come out and change the tires... BUT it does have a luxury interior (compared to the F1) and it is new, most of the people who buy the car will do so because they think its the ultimate, it has the highest top speed, and therefore it must be the best, right? they wont care if it doesn't offer a "pure" driving experiance like the F1, they'll want it for the ability to say they have the fastest car, these are the people who would want an F1 for the pose factor, but dont like the fact its a driving machine and has none of those nice electronic features other cars have, so they will pick the Buggati instead, and they will feel smug surrounded by leather and polished aluminum knowing that if they wanted to they could go faster than anyone else on the road, and the people who really care about how a machine drives and not just numbers will buy the F1, an F40, a Zonda, a Koenigsegg or any of the other great handling supercars.


errr, I kinda babbled on for a bit there, sorry.
I should also point out that is is all just my opinion
'Segg :cool:

Originally posted by maartenvanthek
don't forget ralph is paid by williams nog by bmw. and the main concurrent in england of williams is still mclaren. and what car did montoyadrive when the franch cops cuaght him doping 204 km/h?
an m5?

It was a bike, I'll look up the model right now, It said somewhere....... bah can't find it, all I rememebr is that it was a speeding ticket for doing 124 mph (roughly 204 km/h) in a 78 mph in England somewhere, and his excuse was 'I'm used to driving very fast'.

There must be several incidents like this. The one I heard about happened in France, and it was in a car. But I don't remember which car. Anyone know?

Also, Luca Cadalora (WSB motorcycle racer) almost got in serious trouble in Switzerland because he was riding a bike to Germany and some a$$hole would not move over to let him pass. He ended up overtaking on the shoulder. The self-righteous boor then pulled off and went to the nearest police station and raised hell until they closed the border. Luca was stopped and questioned, but when the truth came out, the motorist was charged with dangerous driving, filing a false report, and failure to yield. There is some justice in the world.

I don't know why I am posting this, except maybe the motorist's attitude reminds me of someone here.

:dogpile:

re: KoenigseggCC post.. agree totally.. super cars are built by men with different desires/ego's and marketing pressures.. the Zonda is definitely a work of art.. add to that, the AMG know-how and compeditiveness with their BMW M cousins, we all expected it to do 220MPH. I am McLaren F1 GTR through-and-through, but if i owned a Zonda I would take it to Dr Ulrich Gauffres at Brabus, and demand they make it quicker than the F1. AMG are not Brabus.. Brabus-Alcon patented the 12piston front brake mechanism to pull up 600bhp+ limo's. Brabus head hunted many of the Merc engineers from the talent pool just before McLaren-Merc F1 relationship. Im BMW blood, but respect, they are true craftsmen with Merc powerplant performance!!

what i hope for is; the McLaren team in Woking will retrofit (or prepare a customer option too) the F1 with carbon brakes like the Enzo. this will silence any muttering or talk of a challenge period!