2003 European GP at Nurburgring

And after the first qualifying session I can say once again that the new rules fail miserably.

1
Raikkonen McLaren M
1:29.989 127.968 mph

2
M Schumacher Ferrari B
1:30.353 0.364

3
Montoya WilliamsF1 M
1:30.378 0.389

4
R Schumacher WilliamsF1 M
1:30.522 0.533

5
Barrichello Ferrari B
1:30.842 0.853

6
Coulthard McLaren M
1:30.903 0.914

7
Trulli Renault M
1:31.143 1.154

8
Alonso Renault M
1:31.533 1.544

9
Fisichella Jordan B
1:32.196 2.207

10
Frentzen Sauber B
1:32.201 2.212

11
Button BAR B
1:32.479 2.490

12
Webber Jaguar M
1:35.972 5.983

13
Heidfeld Sauber B
1:52.300 22.311

14
Firman Jordan B
1:53.893 23.904

15
Wilson Minardi B
1:54.546 24.557

16
Verstappen Minardi B
1:55.921 25.932

17
Panis Toyota M
1:57.327 27.338

18
Pizzonia Jaguar M
1:57.435 27.446

19
da Matta Toyota M
No Time
-

20
Villeneuve BAR B
No Time
-

Originally posted by ales
And after the first qualifying session I can say once again that the new rules fail miserably.


Ellaborate please.....

It's only first session qualifying, everything could change.

We are moving this weekend so I don't get to watch the GP...no TV:frown:

Go kimi

Originally posted by freakray


Ellaborate please.....



It started to rain not long after the start of the session (look at the gaps), so it obvioulsly wasn't an equal situation for everyone, and JV aquaplaned off the track while Damatta made many mistakes and aborted the lap. Quite a few other drivers made mistakes in the rain as well.

Go Montoya! Go Williams! Go BMW!

You go girl!....ooops :biggrin:

Somehow the 1st qual doesnt excite me much and you know why.

We'll see about tomorrow and bring on the rain!

Originally posted by ales


It started to rain not long after the start of the session (look at the gaps), so it obvioulsly wasn't an equal situation for everyone, and JV aquaplaned off the track while Damatta made many mistakes and aborted the lap. Quite a few other drivers made mistakes in the rain as well.

I see what you're saying, but to be honest that doesn't really effect the top driver's times as much as from the middle order on back.....although I admit it has some effect on the overall field as there is a distinct 20 second jump.....

MS will probably rise to the challenge and push Kimi tomorrow in qualifying anyway.....

Originally posted by ales


It started to rain not long after the start of the session (look at the gaps), so it obvioulsly wasn't an equal situation for everyone, and JV aquaplaned off the track while Damatta made many mistakes and aborted the lap. Quite a few other drivers made mistakes in the rain as well.

I feel for them. No seriously, frustrations and being unlucky.

Results are in, not a bad session whatsoever. Mclaren can put a guy on pole with the 17!! :smile:

1 Kimi Raikkonen McLaren 1m31.523s



2 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1m31.555s



3 Ralf Schumacher Williams 1m31.619s



4 Juan Pablo Montoya Williams 1m31.765s



5 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1m31.780s



6 Jarno Trulli Renault 1m31.976s



7 Olivier Panis Toyota 1m32.350s



8 Fernando Alonso Renault 1m32.424s



9 David Coulthard McLaren 1m32.742s



10 Cristiano da Matta Toyota 1m32.949s



11 Mark Webber Jaguar 1m33.066s



12 Jenson Button BAR 1m33.395s



13 Giancarlo Fisichella Jordan 1m33.553s



14 Ralph Firman Jordan 1m33.827s



15 Heinz-Harald Frentzen Sauber 1m34.000s



16 Antonio Pizzonia Jaguar 1m34.159s



17 Jacques Villeneuve BAR 1m34.596s



18 Jos Verstappen Minardi 1m36.318s



19 Justin Wilson Minardi 1m36.485s



20 Nick Heidfeld Sauber 0m0s


And DC, what are you doin!! :rolleyes:

it was pretty interesting watching kimi on his run. After what micheal said about a faster driver coming along, he would retire short of the 06 season. Then kimi beats him in qualifying. i cant wait for the race.

Originally posted by Raging Bull
Mclaren can put a guy on pole with the 17!! :smile:



17D that is.

:biggrin:

Originally posted by Raging Bull
Results are in, not a bad session whatsoever. Mclaren can put a guy on pole with the 17!! :smile:

1 Kimi Raikkonen McLaren 1m31.523s
2 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1m31.555s
3 Ralf Schumacher Williams 1m31.619s
4 Juan Pablo Montoya Williams 1m31.765s
5 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1m31.780s
6 Jarno Trulli Renault 1m31.976s

7 Olivier Panis Toyota 1m32.350s
8 Fernando Alonso Renault 1m32.424s
9 David Coulthard McLaren 1m32.742s
10 Cristiano da Matta Toyota 1m32.949s
11 Mark Webber Jaguar 1m33.066s
12 Jenson Button BAR 1m33.395s
13 Giancarlo Fisichella Jordan 1m33.553s
14 Ralph Firman Jordan 1m33.827s
15 Heinz-Harald Frentzen Sauber 1m34.000s
16 Antonio Pizzonia Jaguar 1m34.159s
17 Jacques Villeneuve BAR 1m34.596s
18 Jos Verstappen Minardi 1m36.318s
19 Justin Wilson Minardi 1m36.485s
20 Nick Heidfeld Sauber 0m0s
And DC, what are you doin!! :rolleyes:

Wow, what a qualifier!
I started to wake up when it was Coulthard's turn. Must say it was a disappointed one from him.
Trulli really set the pace, go renault!
It was very exciting to see the last of the 5s take their turns, all below the 1m32s barrier and within split secs away.

Lets hope that tomorrow will be an exciting race.

Go williams, go bmw, go Montoya go! :smile:

First pole for Kimi and the McLaren MP4/17 :eek:

What is going on? Are McLaren using 18 parts or do Bridgestone have a problem? If the former they must only be fitting them to Kimi's car :tongue:

Of course there is a third option and that is that Kimi is driving the fat old mac out of it's skin. Yeah, lets go with that! :bigthumb:

Originally posted by RallyRaider
First pole for Kimi and the McLaren MP4/17 :eek:

What is going on? Are McLaren using 18 parts or do Bridgestone have a problem? If the former they must only be fitting them to Kimi's car :tongue:

Of course there is a third option and that is that Kimi is driving the fat old mac out of it's skin. Yeah, lets go with that! :bigthumb:

RRaider, if its the former, then we should call it a 17E haha right huudo? :tongue:
Otherwise, my hats off to Kimi.

Originally posted by RallyRaider

Of course there is a third option and that is that Kimi is driving the fat old mac out of it's skin. Yeah, lets go with that! :bigthumb:

:iagree:

Originally posted by RallyRaider
First pole for Kimi and the McLaren MP4/17 :eek:

What is going on? Are McLaren using 18 parts or do Bridgestone have a problem?

Both. Seriously, the car has just the monocoque from the last year's car, the rest (aero package, engine, electronics) are all totally new. Maybe not quite from the 18, but have little in common with the 2002 car.

And Michelin seem to have a huge advantage as well. Look at the top 10 - just 2 Bridgestone-shod cars, and those are Ferraris.

And Kimi did a great job as well. This was seriously the most entertaining qualifying session of the year.

Originally posted by ales


Both. Seriously, the car has just the monocoque from the last year's car, the rest (aero package, engine, electronics) are all totally new. Maybe not quite from the 18, but have little in common with the 2002 car.

And Michelin seem to have a huge advantage as well. Look at the top 10 - just 2 Bridgestone-shod cars, and those are Ferraris.

And Kimi did a great job as well. This was seriously the most entertaining qualifying session of the year.

Yeah the 17D is certainly tweaked, but there is only so much you can do with an old car, can't wait 'til the 18 is sorted.

Hope the Michelin advantage carries over tomorrow. Although I suspect Ferrari will have some tricks up their sleeves for the race.

Will have to take your word about qualifying, can't get it live here for love nor money.

Mayeb Ferrari is holding back. They don't want people to think Ferrari is going to dominate the rest of the season like they did last year. If Ferrari could kill the TV ratings for F-1 if they keep winning all the time. I am a fan of Ferrari, but I would enjoy seeing closer races and more then one or two teams winning all the races.

Maybe Jordan or Renault will get lucky take get a win in one the next few races. My favorite under dog team is Jaguar, but they would need a miracle to win a race this season.

Kimi was leading so comfortably! :eek:


Kaboom goes the bulletproof mercedes engine. I feel really sorry for Kimi. (Lesson to Jacques: this is what can be called "through no fault of his own")

Originally posted by ales
Kimi was leading so comfortably! :eek:


Kaboom goes the bulletproof mercedes engine. I feel really sorry for Kimi. (Lesson to Jacques: this is what can be called "through no fault of his own")

What a shit. Had a bet on kimi to win. :mad:

Schumacher - Montoya tussle, schumacher spins and has beached it in the gravel. Marshals push him out??!!

Originally posted by Raging Bull
Schumacher - Montoya tussle, schumacher spins and has beached it in the gravel. Marshals push him out??!!

mmm german unity:smile: . I missed the spin and I only saw one bad replay of what happened and didnt even heard the marshalls pushed him out:eek: Shame for kimi also:frown:

The rules say that if the engine is still running the marshalls can push the car back onto the track. It is illegal to push-start it though.

The incident itself - well, I feel that Montoya didn't leave enough room (especiall I got this impression from the onboard shot we saw live).

DC - has he signed the rumoured extension to his contract yet? Because otherwise Ron will think twice before signing him.

Kimi :frown:

Alonaso :mad: What a racer is that! He early/surpirse stopped on his line on 3 occasions!!! One time when they (FA-DC) were in the middle of the last corner, another right before the NGK chicane which caused DC's fly-off and a last time on the last corner (FA - MS) of the last lap. Schum could only avoid him by smoking his tyres! What a race attitude is that? Never seen that before in the nearly 20 years that I follow F1. SHAME ON YOU!!! You had no reason to cheer like that in your car afterwards. If that is your strategy to hold competitors off, well sooner or later it'll come after you!

Nice race, result is good for the Championship and leaves the second half fully open!

Originally posted by huudo
Kimi :frown:

Alonaso :mad: What a racer is that! He early/surpirse stopped on his line on 3 occasions!!! One time when they were middle of the last corner, another right before the NGK chicane which caused DC's fly-off and a last time on the last corner of the last lap. Schum could only avoid him by smoking his tyres! What a race attitude is that? Never seen that before in the nearly 20 years that I follow F1. SHAME ON YOU!!! You had no reason to cheer like that in your car afterwards. If that is your strategy to hold competitors off, well sooner or later it'll come after you!

Nice race, result is good for the Championship and leaves the second half fully open!

Something to do with his brakes bein shit??? As far as im concerend it was a racing incident between FA and DC.

Originally posted by Raging Bull
Schumacher - Montoya tussle, schumacher spins and has beached it in the gravel. Marshals push him out??!!

3 marshals and 1 spectator! :wink:

Originally posted by Raging Bull


Something to do with his brakes bein shit??? As far as im concerend it was a racing incident between FA and DC.

I would have accepted that as being a race incident if it happened only 1 time with 1 opponent, but he did it on 3 occasions with 2 opponents!

Originally posted by huudo


I would have accepted that as being a race incident if it happened only 1 time with 1 opponent, but he did it on 3 occasions with 2 opponents!

He did what exactly, u fink he was purposly overbraking into corners??

I am also not impressed with Alonso. Not one bit. First Brazil and now this. He's fast though :)

Originally posted by Raging Bull


He did what exactly, u fink he was purposly overbraking into corners??

That is excatly what I think.

Originally posted by huudo


That is excatly what I think.

And risk being nurfed from behind and thus taking both himself and the other driver out of the race?? Surely hes more sensible than that. I know hes young and inexperienced, but, c'mon!!

From replays, it did showed that Alonso was still quite far away from the turn before he made that early brake. He did once earlier but benefit of the doubt should be given to him.

But for the last incident, there are doubts because the turn was still quite far away.

Will have to see somemore replays to be very sure.

I know overtaking in F1 is very rare these days but could it be that because of this, drivers are often caught unprepared sometimes and unable to handle an opponent's overtaking?

I mean, I like the way Montoya drives. He's alot more exciting than Ralf. And taking on someone like Shumi let alone a Ferrari really requires calculated and precision timing.

The thing is, should Schumi have given way? Or vice versa.

Originally posted by Raging Bull


And risk being nurfed from behind and thus taking both himself and the other driver out of the race?? Surely hes more sensible than that. I know hes young and inexperienced, but, c'mon!!

Well the risk for that is much lower when U are leading the man, in this case Coultard.

If a braking accident should ever become of this, I am sure Coultard banging into Alonso, Coultard's car would suffer the most and Alonso's car may come off without a scratch.

i dont no, u can replace a front wing, but once the rear has fallen off........! Was well impressed with the nose change the BAR (i think) lads did. Where they just seemed to slot it in.

Originally posted by Raging Bull
i dont no, u can replace a front wing, but once the rear has fallen off........! Was well impressed with the nose change the BAR (i think) lads did. Where they just seemed to slot it in.

You can replace a rear wing but it takes around 26 seconds to replace as opposed to the 13 seconds it takes to replace a front.

The main difficulty is the mounting positions for the fasteners etc.
The front wing is more accessible than the rear, aside from the fact that the rear wing has a more complex mounting.
All the front and rear wings are made to slot right into place in case a replacement is required.

If the BAR guys impressed you, I would assume you have not seen Ferrari switch out a wing?

Originally posted by Raging Bull
i dont no, u can replace a front wing, but once the rear has fallen off........! Was well impressed with the nose change the BAR (i think) lads did. Where they just seemed to slot it in.

You guys have much better knowledge of F1 then me, so I wanna ask, wouldnt the front wings of Coultard's hit the rear tires before ever hitting the rear wings of Alonso's?

You might say the risk involved is far much greater to Coultard in this case? Also, this would depend if Alonso was prepared for a quick brake and go to prevent a high impact head on from Coultard thus preventing Coultard from damaging Alonso's rear wings but just enough to scare Coultard which actually did happen.

If this was the case, then Alonso is by no means an inexperience driver but bordering on being a dangerous one.

Originally posted by Chain


You guys have much better knowledge of F1 then me, so I wanna ask, wouldnt the front wings of Coultard's hit the rear tires before ever hitting the rear wings of Alonso's?

You might say the risk involved is far much greater to Coultard in this case? Also, this would depend if Alonso was prepared for a quick brake and go to prevent a high impact head on from Coultard thus preventing Coultard from damaging Alonso's rear wings but just enough to scare Coultard which actually did happen.

If this was the case, then Alonso is by no means an inexperience driver but bordering on being a dangerous one.

The rear wing hangs down behind the rear tyres to some extent, and the front wind isn't that low to the grount as you might think, many a rear wing gets lost from rear impact, more often than not without touching the tyres too.
Generally a nose-rear impact results in both drivers being in the pits getting their respective parts replaced.

Further than the technical/racing aspect I can't comment, I only just regained some internet access today, have no TV and am pretty ignorant of what really happened in the GP aside from this thread (although reading about Kimi's engine blowing got me pretty riled!). I wish I had seen the race to know more about the Alonso/Coulthard incident.

Ray

Originally posted by freakray
If the BAR guys impressed you, I would assume you have not seen Ferrari switch out a wing?

Not recently, just recalled this change looking somewhat special, i remember the commentators noting it was quick, and i believe it was in record time also.

I seem to recall Barichello's front wing too was damaged in the Canadian race and the entire nose cone was changed but it wasnt as fast as what BAR did to their nose cone.

Anyways, changing it fast is 1 thing, getting it consistantly is another.

Pit stop strategies, wow, what a difference it makes.

Didnt know F1 wasnt so straight forward as it seems. Thought it was just a bunch of cars going round in circles...lol I guess I was wrong and now loving every minute of watching it.

Originally posted by freakray


Further than the technical/racing aspect I can't comment, I only just regained some internet access today, have no TV and am pretty ignorant of what really happened in the GP aside from this thread (although reading about Kimi's engine blowing got me pretty riled!). I wish I had seen the race to know more about the Alonso/Coulthard incident.

Ray

You might find this usefull. http://www.ukf1.net You can find ITV-video of the highlights there :wink:

I think Mercedes had the RPM's turned up on Kimi's engine to look good to the home crowd. No way that car was that much faster, all of the sudden, than the BMW's and Ferrari's. :smile:

Originally posted by Veyron
I think Mercedes had the RPM's turned up on Kimi's engine to look good to the home crowd. No way that car was that much faster, all of the sudden, than the BMW's and Ferrari's. :smile:

Interesting. :eek:

Originally posted by Veyron
I think Mercedes had the RPM's turned up on Kimi's engine to look good to the home crowd. No way that car was that much faster, all of the sudden, than the BMW's and Ferrari's. :smile:

But it isn't the Mac and Williams that have suddenly become faster, rather it is the Michelins that are now a match for or better than the Bridgestones. After all Kimi wasn't that much faster than Ralf.

On that subject another solid, typically non-threatening Ralf style win from him. He has definitely sorted out the single lap qualifying problems he had earlier in the year.

I think Montoya's move on Schumacher Snr was great. Going around the outside was not what Michael was expecting. He was being super protective of the inside line so Montoya just drove around him. Couldn't have realy left him any more room because then Montoya would have been out on the dust/marbles and oversteered himself. Looks like Schumacher is spooked a bit by Montoya and he's not going to feel any better about it after coming off second best yet again.

I'm pretty sure there must have been something wrong with Alonso's car. To catch Coulthard out like that he must have done something unusual. Doubt it would have been deliberate. I saw that both Alonso and Briatore have denied there was anything wrong with the car but that must just be the PR BS line. I certainly hope so because that would mean Alonso deliberately brake tested Coulthard.

Here's hoping for some more Michelin domination next weekend. And more importantly Kimi's engine will allow him to finish the job.

Originally posted by Veyron
I think Mercedes had the RPM's turned up on Kimi's engine to look good to the home crowd. No way that car was that much faster, all of the sudden, than the BMW's and Ferrari's. :smile:

IT's something I have been thinking about as well. But probably not to please the home crowd, but just ot see if the car can still "hack" it.

Originally posted by RallyRaider



I'm pretty sure there must have been something wrong with Alonso's car. To catch Coulthard out like that he must have done something unusual. Doubt it would have been deliberate. I saw that both Alonso and Briatore have denied there was anything wrong with the car but that must just be the PR BS line. I certainly hope so because that would mean Alonso deliberately brake tested Coulthard.



If it was only that incident, I'd say yes, you're right. But it happened 1 more time before. And in the last lap with Schumacher again... I just don't know. I hope you're right. Otherwise Alonso-kid is just a bad looser... :bloated:

Alonso braked more than 50 meters early, I have the race on tape and watched the replay many times. The only way to be sure if Alonso braked on purpose is by looking at his on board and seeying him aiming in the mirrors for coulthard.

I think he did it on purpose. That kid is dangerous, and he's racing for the dirtiest team in F1, for the dirtiest team boss. :redface:

Originally posted by Ringo
Alonso braked more than 50 meters early, I have the race on tape and watched the replay many times. The only way to be sure if Alonso braked on purpose is by looking at his on board and seeying him aiming in the mirrors for coulthard.

I think he did it on purpose. That kid is dangerous, and he's racing for the dirtiest team in F1, for the dirtiest team boss. :redface:

while i was watching the race live i was amazed at the move. I dont know if i think it was on purpose and the result was greater than what alonso expected, or he truely had a problem. But im leaning more towards the first one, i think david was going to get him and he needed to stay as close to the top title runners as possible.