I Hate Old Ricers!!!!
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skrow03GT
01-02-2004, 02:24 PM
WOW, he has NO experience in making a car fast, and keeps talking this garbage that makes NO SENSE. Show me a jap motor that can make 400 hp at the WHEELS with "minor mods", dont list motors that have POWERADDERS you fool, im talking N/A. And who rates hp at the crank?? Who cares what it makes at the crank, its what gets to the ground that counts. RB26DETT makes 260hp/280tq @ crank. Which I will say is damn impressive for an IMPORT, but thats nothing compared to a bigger displacement motor they make here in the USA.
And PLEASE show me an N/A import thats making real power, something running sub-11 sec 1/4 mile times and doing it cheaply?? It would cost $20,000+++ atleast to get to that level reliably, and it would not be a street car by any means. Get that crap out of your head, you are talking straight nonsense. You have never raced on a track that needs pure brute accelaration. The tracks you goto rely more on handling im guessing than brute power. Im sorry but in my street car, I want accelaration, who races around corners?? Thats not only retarted, but dangerous to everybody on the street. If you rally racing or stuff like that, I understand, but thats like .01% of people modifying their cars.
And you obviously know NOTHING about what youre talking about, telling me a OHV has 1 cam. Whats wrong with you, stop spreading crap you have no knowledge about. Let me break it down to you, OHV (Over Head Valve) = 2 heads = atleast 2 cams. A 2v mustang = 2 cams, 4v = 4 cams. I dont see how thats a factor in anything though, look at an LS1 pushrod motor, the thing is a beast, putting down 330hp to the wheels straight from the factory floor. It does this with 1 cam. Until you grow some balls, and gain real knowledge about what you are talking about, plz stop talking out of your a**, kthnx.
And PLEASE show me an N/A import thats making real power, something running sub-11 sec 1/4 mile times and doing it cheaply?? It would cost $20,000+++ atleast to get to that level reliably, and it would not be a street car by any means. Get that crap out of your head, you are talking straight nonsense. You have never raced on a track that needs pure brute accelaration. The tracks you goto rely more on handling im guessing than brute power. Im sorry but in my street car, I want accelaration, who races around corners?? Thats not only retarted, but dangerous to everybody on the street. If you rally racing or stuff like that, I understand, but thats like .01% of people modifying their cars.
And you obviously know NOTHING about what youre talking about, telling me a OHV has 1 cam. Whats wrong with you, stop spreading crap you have no knowledge about. Let me break it down to you, OHV (Over Head Valve) = 2 heads = atleast 2 cams. A 2v mustang = 2 cams, 4v = 4 cams. I dont see how thats a factor in anything though, look at an LS1 pushrod motor, the thing is a beast, putting down 330hp to the wheels straight from the factory floor. It does this with 1 cam. Until you grow some balls, and gain real knowledge about what you are talking about, plz stop talking out of your a**, kthnx.
Jimster
01-02-2004, 08:08 PM
WOW, he has NO experience in making a car fast, and keeps talking this garbage that makes NO SENSE. Show me a jap motor that can make 400 hp at the WHEELS with "minor mods", dont list motors that have POWERADDERS you fool, im talking N/A. And who rates hp at the crank?? Who cares what it makes at the crank, its what gets to the ground that counts. RB26DETT makes 260hp/280tq @ crank. Which I will say is damn impressive for an IMPORT, but thats nothing compared to a bigger displacement motor they make here in the USA.
And PLEASE show me an N/A import thats making real power, something running sub-11 sec 1/4 mile times and doing it cheaply?? It would cost $20,000+++ atleast to get to that level reliably, and it would not be a street car by any means. Get that crap out of your head, you are talking straight nonsense. You have never raced on a track that needs pure brute accelaration. The tracks you goto rely more on handling im guessing than brute power. Im sorry but in my street car, I want accelaration, who races around corners?? Thats not only retarted, but dangerous to everybody on the street. If you rally racing or stuff like that, I understand, but thats like .01% of people modifying their cars.
And you obviously know NOTHING about what youre talking about, telling me a OHV has 1 cam. Whats wrong with you, stop spreading crap you have no knowledge about. Let me break it down to you, OHV (Over Head Valve) = 2 heads = atleast 2 cams. A 2v mustang = 2 cams, 4v = 4 cams. I dont see how thats a factor in anything though, look at an LS1 pushrod motor, the thing is a beast, putting down 330hp to the wheels straight from the factory floor. It does this with 1 cam. Until you grow some balls, and gain real knowledge about what you are talking about, plz stop talking out of your a**, kthnx.
Ummmm- You seem to know nothing about even your own car then- because last time I checked a 99+ Mustang V8 was an SOHC V8- which means just one camshaft over each cylinder bank and a DOHC on the Cobra models, so yeah- I don't know what the hell you are on about. I never tried to say OHV had 1 cam in the first place
If you want to see a 400whp+ motor with minor mods and minor expense- fellow AFer RazorGTR- can point you to some Skylines that make just that- in fact- I Think that sounds just like his GTR...Interesting- same thing with Supra motors (2JZ's) it'd be as simple as exhaust, Air filter, Front mount, BOV and a chip- all are more or less bolt ons- and can get an easy 70 whp
I like to measure hp/Kw at the crank- simply because thats the data I have on most stock cars- It shows the true power of the engine- Most AWD cars lose a significant amount of power through the powertrain- this is very true of the Subaru WRX- which loses as much as 50 hp- by the time the power reached the wheels- but not so much the case of the ATESSA system of Nissan- which is years ahead of it's time.........
Where did you get those figures for the RB26??? Sounds like you pulled them out of your ass- the R34 Skyline GTR actually dynos at about 320-330 whp- it has been proven dyno after dyno- and that is stock- Nissan quote 276 bhp for the car simply because there is the Gentlemans agreement in Japan that says the Auto-makers cannot advertise a car at above 276 bhp (Do not ask me why they chose to do this- because I have no idea) apparently (I cannot confirm this) The Evolution is also severely underated.......
There are all motor Hondas pulling impressive times in the States- 8's and 9's- they are probably not street cars- but I doubt you could street-drive an 8/9 second muscle car either- especially in the rain.
And the Japanese don't even bother with cars that don't use Turbos and why shouldn't they???? Turbos clearly are the replacement for displacement- for example- in New Zealand (Where I come from) there are Evo's, Integras, RX7's and Skylines running- low-high 9's in some of the most basic build-up's most of them wouldn't have cost over US$20,000 to build- including the purchase of the car- about 80% of them are street legal- and also street registered (With Regos like RSLRCN, DOCILE, RIPUUP and GDZLR) - and these are all results from last season- the new one is about to kick off and I have little doubt that most of them will be in the 8's- considering that most of them are actually being turned into proper drag cars now and the competition is hotting up. Don't even get me started on the 7 second Rotaries in Oztrallia
There are also two GTR's one runing 8.55 (w/Nitrous) and one running 8.69 (w/o Nitrous) and BOTH of them are on street tyres- yes you heard right- not using slicks- and the cars are only putting out 900-odd whp- and when I left they were both street registered- I know the 8.55 second one still is- I"m not sure about the other one though. But I don't particuarly like Skylines or drag-racing in the first place- Euro cars and track racing is what I go for
As for racing around corners WTF- Who races around corners???- errr......Michael Schumacher, Marcus Gronholm, Greg Murphy, Frank Biela, Gabriel Tarquini, me.......???
A Targa is the same thing as a rally- closed public roads, marshalls and generally the works- there is also, in Italy a hugely vast number of racing tracks that you can race on for sweet bugger all- I wouldn't dream of doing something like I do on the track, on the street- whether it be rounding corners or flooring it in a straight line- that shit is dangerous and the domain of silly children with small penises. I think what you are trying to say is that you don't race on road courses because
(a) You can't drive for shit
(b) Your car has bugger all handling capability
The first thing I do when I get a car that I'm gonig to race seriously is brakes and suspension, followed by getting a Ferrari-esque noise, followed by bolt on performance, followed by Internals- power is down the bottom of my list- when you are track racing- if you don't have decent brake/suspension- then you may as well simply not bother- that's the reality of the matter- Track racing is extremely enjoyable- especially a tight track- Rest assured- when I do need some torque for a corner exit- my BMW gives me bucketloads of it.
It's as simple as this- any idiot can tweak an engine and go fast in a straight line- building a track monster is not only harder- but a fuckload more rewarding
If you want, I can close this thread, if you so wish not to embarras yourself further........
And PLEASE show me an N/A import thats making real power, something running sub-11 sec 1/4 mile times and doing it cheaply?? It would cost $20,000+++ atleast to get to that level reliably, and it would not be a street car by any means. Get that crap out of your head, you are talking straight nonsense. You have never raced on a track that needs pure brute accelaration. The tracks you goto rely more on handling im guessing than brute power. Im sorry but in my street car, I want accelaration, who races around corners?? Thats not only retarted, but dangerous to everybody on the street. If you rally racing or stuff like that, I understand, but thats like .01% of people modifying their cars.
And you obviously know NOTHING about what youre talking about, telling me a OHV has 1 cam. Whats wrong with you, stop spreading crap you have no knowledge about. Let me break it down to you, OHV (Over Head Valve) = 2 heads = atleast 2 cams. A 2v mustang = 2 cams, 4v = 4 cams. I dont see how thats a factor in anything though, look at an LS1 pushrod motor, the thing is a beast, putting down 330hp to the wheels straight from the factory floor. It does this with 1 cam. Until you grow some balls, and gain real knowledge about what you are talking about, plz stop talking out of your a**, kthnx.
Ummmm- You seem to know nothing about even your own car then- because last time I checked a 99+ Mustang V8 was an SOHC V8- which means just one camshaft over each cylinder bank and a DOHC on the Cobra models, so yeah- I don't know what the hell you are on about. I never tried to say OHV had 1 cam in the first place
If you want to see a 400whp+ motor with minor mods and minor expense- fellow AFer RazorGTR- can point you to some Skylines that make just that- in fact- I Think that sounds just like his GTR...Interesting- same thing with Supra motors (2JZ's) it'd be as simple as exhaust, Air filter, Front mount, BOV and a chip- all are more or less bolt ons- and can get an easy 70 whp
I like to measure hp/Kw at the crank- simply because thats the data I have on most stock cars- It shows the true power of the engine- Most AWD cars lose a significant amount of power through the powertrain- this is very true of the Subaru WRX- which loses as much as 50 hp- by the time the power reached the wheels- but not so much the case of the ATESSA system of Nissan- which is years ahead of it's time.........
Where did you get those figures for the RB26??? Sounds like you pulled them out of your ass- the R34 Skyline GTR actually dynos at about 320-330 whp- it has been proven dyno after dyno- and that is stock- Nissan quote 276 bhp for the car simply because there is the Gentlemans agreement in Japan that says the Auto-makers cannot advertise a car at above 276 bhp (Do not ask me why they chose to do this- because I have no idea) apparently (I cannot confirm this) The Evolution is also severely underated.......
There are all motor Hondas pulling impressive times in the States- 8's and 9's- they are probably not street cars- but I doubt you could street-drive an 8/9 second muscle car either- especially in the rain.
And the Japanese don't even bother with cars that don't use Turbos and why shouldn't they???? Turbos clearly are the replacement for displacement- for example- in New Zealand (Where I come from) there are Evo's, Integras, RX7's and Skylines running- low-high 9's in some of the most basic build-up's most of them wouldn't have cost over US$20,000 to build- including the purchase of the car- about 80% of them are street legal- and also street registered (With Regos like RSLRCN, DOCILE, RIPUUP and GDZLR) - and these are all results from last season- the new one is about to kick off and I have little doubt that most of them will be in the 8's- considering that most of them are actually being turned into proper drag cars now and the competition is hotting up. Don't even get me started on the 7 second Rotaries in Oztrallia
There are also two GTR's one runing 8.55 (w/Nitrous) and one running 8.69 (w/o Nitrous) and BOTH of them are on street tyres- yes you heard right- not using slicks- and the cars are only putting out 900-odd whp- and when I left they were both street registered- I know the 8.55 second one still is- I"m not sure about the other one though. But I don't particuarly like Skylines or drag-racing in the first place- Euro cars and track racing is what I go for
As for racing around corners WTF- Who races around corners???- errr......Michael Schumacher, Marcus Gronholm, Greg Murphy, Frank Biela, Gabriel Tarquini, me.......???
A Targa is the same thing as a rally- closed public roads, marshalls and generally the works- there is also, in Italy a hugely vast number of racing tracks that you can race on for sweet bugger all- I wouldn't dream of doing something like I do on the track, on the street- whether it be rounding corners or flooring it in a straight line- that shit is dangerous and the domain of silly children with small penises. I think what you are trying to say is that you don't race on road courses because
(a) You can't drive for shit
(b) Your car has bugger all handling capability
The first thing I do when I get a car that I'm gonig to race seriously is brakes and suspension, followed by getting a Ferrari-esque noise, followed by bolt on performance, followed by Internals- power is down the bottom of my list- when you are track racing- if you don't have decent brake/suspension- then you may as well simply not bother- that's the reality of the matter- Track racing is extremely enjoyable- especially a tight track- Rest assured- when I do need some torque for a corner exit- my BMW gives me bucketloads of it.
It's as simple as this- any idiot can tweak an engine and go fast in a straight line- building a track monster is not only harder- but a fuckload more rewarding
If you want, I can close this thread, if you so wish not to embarras yourself further........
skrow03GT
01-02-2004, 09:53 PM
"Ummmm- You seem to know nothing about even your own car then- because last time I checked a 99+ Mustang V8 was an SOHC V8- which means just one camshaft over the cylinder head- and a DOHC on the Cobra models, so yeah- I don't know what the hell you are on about. I never tried to say OHV had 1 cam in the first place"
-This is starting to get funny, have you never seen a V8? Obviously not, heres a newsflash for you though, it has two heads. AGAIN 2v (SOHC) = 2 cams, 4v (DOHC) = 4 cams. Whew... there is lesson #1...
"If you want to see a 400whp+ motor with minor mods and minor expense- fellow AFer RazorGTR- can point you to some Skylines that make just that- in fact- I Think that sounds just like his GTR...Interesting- same thing with Supra motors (2JZ's) it'd be as simple as exhaust, Air filter, Front mount, BOV and a chip- all are more or less bolt ons- and can get an easy 70 whp"
-I said N/A, I should have spelled it out, im sorry. It means Naturaly Aspirated = ALL MOTOR. If those engines are so great, why do the they need a poweradder to make power?? Not only does that make it heavier in the nose, it makes it less reliable due to more parts likely to fail. You also dont have many choices with the motor. Lets say you have a 400hp turbo motor, and I have a 400hp N/A motor. Not only will the N/A motor be faster & more reliable, but I still have the option of turbo charging my N/A motor and jump straight to 600? hp. Another tidbit of information for you, peak hp/tq numbers dont mean too much, you have to look at the power curve on a dyno sheet. Thats ANOTHER drawback of a smaller displacement motor, is that its dyno graph will look like a mountain, no hp/tw down low, and rising sharply to "peak" at its hp/tq rating. If you look at a V8 dyno graph, it will be pretty much flat, meaning you are at close to peak power throughout your whole powerband. Who cares if you make 600hp @ 8000 rpm, if youre only making 150 @ 2500 rpm. I dunno about you but I spend most of my driving in the lower rpms, and race in higher rpms. This way w/a V8 youre fast both low & high rpm. Thats why you never see a mustang/camaro or any other v8 motored car sitting at a stoplight bouncing off their redline to try to get a descent launch. I launch off idle and have GOBS of hp/tq available throughout my rpm range. That was lesson #2, hope youre paying attention...
There are all motor Hondas pulling impressive times in the States- 8's and 9's- they are probably not street cars- but I doubt you could street-drive an 8/9 second muscle car either- especially in the rain.
-There is more crap you just pulled out of your ass. The FASTEST all motor Honda in the world runs mid 10s, and has about $25,000 in the motor alone. There is no Hondas in the 8s and 9s you fool. I dont have the guys name handy, but I can get a link for you to check out the car if you want. It would be a nightmare to try to get a FWD car to the 8s, almost impossible, just for the fact that when you launch simple physics will tell you that weight transfer occurs and weight goes to the REAR tires, and tries to lift the front tires off the ground. Thats lesson #3, youre learning alot! :rofl:
Im out of time to disect the rest of the pile of nonsense you left in the last post, please, especially as a moderator, do these people a favor and only speak about things that you have experience with. Otherwise they read your crap and actually believe it, and go around spreading information that is not accurate. Thnx, hope you learned something!
-This is starting to get funny, have you never seen a V8? Obviously not, heres a newsflash for you though, it has two heads. AGAIN 2v (SOHC) = 2 cams, 4v (DOHC) = 4 cams. Whew... there is lesson #1...
"If you want to see a 400whp+ motor with minor mods and minor expense- fellow AFer RazorGTR- can point you to some Skylines that make just that- in fact- I Think that sounds just like his GTR...Interesting- same thing with Supra motors (2JZ's) it'd be as simple as exhaust, Air filter, Front mount, BOV and a chip- all are more or less bolt ons- and can get an easy 70 whp"
-I said N/A, I should have spelled it out, im sorry. It means Naturaly Aspirated = ALL MOTOR. If those engines are so great, why do the they need a poweradder to make power?? Not only does that make it heavier in the nose, it makes it less reliable due to more parts likely to fail. You also dont have many choices with the motor. Lets say you have a 400hp turbo motor, and I have a 400hp N/A motor. Not only will the N/A motor be faster & more reliable, but I still have the option of turbo charging my N/A motor and jump straight to 600? hp. Another tidbit of information for you, peak hp/tq numbers dont mean too much, you have to look at the power curve on a dyno sheet. Thats ANOTHER drawback of a smaller displacement motor, is that its dyno graph will look like a mountain, no hp/tw down low, and rising sharply to "peak" at its hp/tq rating. If you look at a V8 dyno graph, it will be pretty much flat, meaning you are at close to peak power throughout your whole powerband. Who cares if you make 600hp @ 8000 rpm, if youre only making 150 @ 2500 rpm. I dunno about you but I spend most of my driving in the lower rpms, and race in higher rpms. This way w/a V8 youre fast both low & high rpm. Thats why you never see a mustang/camaro or any other v8 motored car sitting at a stoplight bouncing off their redline to try to get a descent launch. I launch off idle and have GOBS of hp/tq available throughout my rpm range. That was lesson #2, hope youre paying attention...
There are all motor Hondas pulling impressive times in the States- 8's and 9's- they are probably not street cars- but I doubt you could street-drive an 8/9 second muscle car either- especially in the rain.
-There is more crap you just pulled out of your ass. The FASTEST all motor Honda in the world runs mid 10s, and has about $25,000 in the motor alone. There is no Hondas in the 8s and 9s you fool. I dont have the guys name handy, but I can get a link for you to check out the car if you want. It would be a nightmare to try to get a FWD car to the 8s, almost impossible, just for the fact that when you launch simple physics will tell you that weight transfer occurs and weight goes to the REAR tires, and tries to lift the front tires off the ground. Thats lesson #3, youre learning alot! :rofl:
Im out of time to disect the rest of the pile of nonsense you left in the last post, please, especially as a moderator, do these people a favor and only speak about things that you have experience with. Otherwise they read your crap and actually believe it, and go around spreading information that is not accurate. Thnx, hope you learned something!
Jimster
01-02-2004, 11:36 PM
Also there are probably a fiar few Hondas in the 8's and 9's in the States- being the vast Country it is- Yes, it doesn't take a genius that there are two Cylinder banks in a V8- but my point is for each Cylinder bank you only have one camshaft- controlling both both inlet AND exhaust for each bank- hence more or less your engine is controlled by one camshaft- as opposed to the MUCH more efficient 2 (or 4 if you so must put it your way- in your situation- mine is different I have an Inline 6)
Like I said0 the Japanese D-O-N-T B-O-T-H-E-R W-I-T-H A-L-L M-O-T-O-R S-E-T-U-P-S Why should they??? Only Honda have ever been dedicated to not using Turbos- and the results are always that the Hondas end up with a Turbo in the end if they are going to be drag-raced. Turbos quite simply are the replacement for displacement- seeing as they more or less increase the displacement- with out actually making the engine better (Think about how a Turbo works before you say something retarded) If we will use 400hp as our benchmark then so be it- it depends really on what kind of motor you are using- if it's an RB26 or 2JZ- you won't be that far from stock output- the car will run fine- the Japanese are great at building reliable technology- the GTR will go to about 600 hp before a stronger gearbox is required- and 1000hp on stock internals- but most serious racers replace internals well before then- but you can daily drive a 500-600 hp GTR day to day without any real worries of reliability- A LOT of Japanese/New Zealand/Australian people do it- and still eat V8's- you'd need 100 Octane or higher petrol- but if you live in Japan- you can buy it straight off the pumps. Now if you were building a smaller 3SGTE or SR20DET motor to 600 hp- you'd be fucked- but they are not meant as drag motors- they are optimised for road course and drift. Although an old-school FJ20 can show the V8 boys how it's done- due to it's simplicity.
Oh and I'm aware Peak hp numbers mean little- as do torque numbers.
I do like some low range- but I do perfer the top range torque power to increase as I go up to my much higher-than-an-OHV-V8 redline- This is why I found a Boxster much preferable to an S2000- the S2000 comes to life when VTEC engages- which last I checked is the 4-5000 rpm range- the Boxster is brawny when low down- but gets almost as tough as an S2000 as it peaks- But a Kansas-flat torque curve is way overated IMHO
As for the All motor Honda- sorry I was confused with another one BUT- you are still wrong- Stephan Papadakis- in the States- ran a high 7 in his FWD H22A (Prelude motor) Civic- (but I bleive he has gone TT NSX now) there is also an NSX that runs low 7's- I think that's Adam Saruwatari- I'm pretty sure he's on my High Octane 4 DVD.but there is some 9 second runners in Australia/New Zealand- there is Ronnie Lim in his B18C Turbo'd Integra- who runs an 9.89 (www.performancecar.co.nz/raceresults) and is headed to take back the Australasian FWD record from 9.76 second CRX Del Sol. Both two cars are in what I'd call a mild state of tune. Besides- all you'd need was some Ultra hard rear Suspension to keep your FWD car grounded......Shouldn't be too hard
Papadakis' car is herehttp://www.streettuners.com/papadakis/stephan_papadakis_wic02/page1.htm
But like I said- Who gives a shit how fast one can go in a straight line?????
anyway......I'm bored of you, I'm off to find someone who actually knows something.......Thread closed
Like I said0 the Japanese D-O-N-T B-O-T-H-E-R W-I-T-H A-L-L M-O-T-O-R S-E-T-U-P-S Why should they??? Only Honda have ever been dedicated to not using Turbos- and the results are always that the Hondas end up with a Turbo in the end if they are going to be drag-raced. Turbos quite simply are the replacement for displacement- seeing as they more or less increase the displacement- with out actually making the engine better (Think about how a Turbo works before you say something retarded) If we will use 400hp as our benchmark then so be it- it depends really on what kind of motor you are using- if it's an RB26 or 2JZ- you won't be that far from stock output- the car will run fine- the Japanese are great at building reliable technology- the GTR will go to about 600 hp before a stronger gearbox is required- and 1000hp on stock internals- but most serious racers replace internals well before then- but you can daily drive a 500-600 hp GTR day to day without any real worries of reliability- A LOT of Japanese/New Zealand/Australian people do it- and still eat V8's- you'd need 100 Octane or higher petrol- but if you live in Japan- you can buy it straight off the pumps. Now if you were building a smaller 3SGTE or SR20DET motor to 600 hp- you'd be fucked- but they are not meant as drag motors- they are optimised for road course and drift. Although an old-school FJ20 can show the V8 boys how it's done- due to it's simplicity.
Oh and I'm aware Peak hp numbers mean little- as do torque numbers.
I do like some low range- but I do perfer the top range torque power to increase as I go up to my much higher-than-an-OHV-V8 redline- This is why I found a Boxster much preferable to an S2000- the S2000 comes to life when VTEC engages- which last I checked is the 4-5000 rpm range- the Boxster is brawny when low down- but gets almost as tough as an S2000 as it peaks- But a Kansas-flat torque curve is way overated IMHO
As for the All motor Honda- sorry I was confused with another one BUT- you are still wrong- Stephan Papadakis- in the States- ran a high 7 in his FWD H22A (Prelude motor) Civic- (but I bleive he has gone TT NSX now) there is also an NSX that runs low 7's- I think that's Adam Saruwatari- I'm pretty sure he's on my High Octane 4 DVD.but there is some 9 second runners in Australia/New Zealand- there is Ronnie Lim in his B18C Turbo'd Integra- who runs an 9.89 (www.performancecar.co.nz/raceresults) and is headed to take back the Australasian FWD record from 9.76 second CRX Del Sol. Both two cars are in what I'd call a mild state of tune. Besides- all you'd need was some Ultra hard rear Suspension to keep your FWD car grounded......Shouldn't be too hard
Papadakis' car is herehttp://www.streettuners.com/papadakis/stephan_papadakis_wic02/page1.htm
But like I said- Who gives a shit how fast one can go in a straight line?????
anyway......I'm bored of you, I'm off to find someone who actually knows something.......Thread closed
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