The IRA [split thread]
NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-24-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Dublinguy
Taranaki,
Im going to give you a quick history lesson. The Irish Republican Army was formed in the early
part of the last century for one goal, that was to rid Ireland of English oppression that was led
by the English government and the Royal Family. In 1916 James Connolly led a group of brave young Irishmen
in a rising against the British. The great leaders of the IRA were captured and inhumanely executed
by the British army. My grandfather stood in the GPO alongside the great leaders of 1916, Connolly, Pearse,
De Valera, Collins, Boland et al. The English called them terrorist then for being so outrageous as to
question Englands occupation of Ireland. Was my grandfather a terrorist? For 800 years going back to the times of
Cromwell the English raped and pileged our land and unlawfully took control of it. Were they not terrorists then?
I certainly dont believe my grandfather was a terrorist, he fought for what he believed in so he and his family
could live in a free Ireland. He fought the british on Irish soil. So how was he a terrorist? In
1920 Michael Collins was sent to England to meet with the British to negotiate the freedom of Ireland,
Collins who was a military man and by no means a negotiator returned with 26 counties and a Free State.
Too this date the British still occupy part of my country so that war still continues to free the other
6 counties of English rule.
Granted I dont agree with the tactics used by the IRA of today and they are certianly not the same IRA
that my grandfather fought with. All your news clippings deal with attacks on the 'mainland' but what of
the attacks on 'Irish' soil? Need I mention Bloody Sunday, on the 30th January 1972
where British Soldiers opened fired on peaceful UNARMED demonstrators killing 13. Need I mention the Gilford 4 and
Birmingham 6 who were accused and sentenced to life imprisonments for crimes they did not commit. Who were beaten daily and
treated like dirt. And when released never in recieved an apology for the British
Were these not terrorist acts by the British? Sinn Fein are being told by Unionists that they
must disarm to be allowed into talks but not one person and certianly not Mr Blair has said the Unionists
must disarm aswell. The last cease fire was broken by the UDF as have many other cease fires.
As for your comment about Bush not "..needing a cheap source of potatoes any time soon.", you will do well to remember
that it was the Irish who said yes to allowing US forces stop to refuel in Shannon as it has happened many times in the past.
So maybe Bush should think about helping the Irish to rid his 'Great' ally the British from Irish shores.
I feel extremely passionate about this, as is the case with most people outside of Ireland not understanding the troubles.
If you are going to use something like this as an example of terrorism I would kindly ask you to get your facts straight first.
It was the Brittish who labelled the IRA as terrorists and the whole world adopted it, when does fighting for your civil
rights and what you believe in on your own soil become terrorism?
Ciaran
Tiocfaidh ar La
*deleted was being stupid i apologise*
They're still killing each other and they're stiill blowing up places in England. The did so within the past two years. They are scum.
Military is military they don't adhere to the same rules as police and this is not an excuse for what they did but you can't expect them to act the same way.
Terrorist acts by Britain what are you on about as far as i know the ENGLISH PUBLIC HAS DONE NOTHING TO THEM to deserve getting terrorised.
Think before you open your mouth.
NOT AN EXAMPLE OF TERRORISM? ARE YOU SERIOUS? I can't think of a more perfect example of terrorism then IRA bombings on civilian targets that are COMPLETELY UNWARRENTED.
CIVILIANS GET IT ?????? NOT GOVERNMENT NOT ARMY CIVILIANS and who continues the conflict who doesn't resolves their indifferences YES THATS RIGHT SHEIN FEIN
LOSERS
Taranaki,
Im going to give you a quick history lesson. The Irish Republican Army was formed in the early
part of the last century for one goal, that was to rid Ireland of English oppression that was led
by the English government and the Royal Family. In 1916 James Connolly led a group of brave young Irishmen
in a rising against the British. The great leaders of the IRA were captured and inhumanely executed
by the British army. My grandfather stood in the GPO alongside the great leaders of 1916, Connolly, Pearse,
De Valera, Collins, Boland et al. The English called them terrorist then for being so outrageous as to
question Englands occupation of Ireland. Was my grandfather a terrorist? For 800 years going back to the times of
Cromwell the English raped and pileged our land and unlawfully took control of it. Were they not terrorists then?
I certainly dont believe my grandfather was a terrorist, he fought for what he believed in so he and his family
could live in a free Ireland. He fought the british on Irish soil. So how was he a terrorist? In
1920 Michael Collins was sent to England to meet with the British to negotiate the freedom of Ireland,
Collins who was a military man and by no means a negotiator returned with 26 counties and a Free State.
Too this date the British still occupy part of my country so that war still continues to free the other
6 counties of English rule.
Granted I dont agree with the tactics used by the IRA of today and they are certianly not the same IRA
that my grandfather fought with. All your news clippings deal with attacks on the 'mainland' but what of
the attacks on 'Irish' soil? Need I mention Bloody Sunday, on the 30th January 1972
where British Soldiers opened fired on peaceful UNARMED demonstrators killing 13. Need I mention the Gilford 4 and
Birmingham 6 who were accused and sentenced to life imprisonments for crimes they did not commit. Who were beaten daily and
treated like dirt. And when released never in recieved an apology for the British
Were these not terrorist acts by the British? Sinn Fein are being told by Unionists that they
must disarm to be allowed into talks but not one person and certianly not Mr Blair has said the Unionists
must disarm aswell. The last cease fire was broken by the UDF as have many other cease fires.
As for your comment about Bush not "..needing a cheap source of potatoes any time soon.", you will do well to remember
that it was the Irish who said yes to allowing US forces stop to refuel in Shannon as it has happened many times in the past.
So maybe Bush should think about helping the Irish to rid his 'Great' ally the British from Irish shores.
I feel extremely passionate about this, as is the case with most people outside of Ireland not understanding the troubles.
If you are going to use something like this as an example of terrorism I would kindly ask you to get your facts straight first.
It was the Brittish who labelled the IRA as terrorists and the whole world adopted it, when does fighting for your civil
rights and what you believe in on your own soil become terrorism?
Ciaran
Tiocfaidh ar La
*deleted was being stupid i apologise*
They're still killing each other and they're stiill blowing up places in England. The did so within the past two years. They are scum.
Military is military they don't adhere to the same rules as police and this is not an excuse for what they did but you can't expect them to act the same way.
Terrorist acts by Britain what are you on about as far as i know the ENGLISH PUBLIC HAS DONE NOTHING TO THEM to deserve getting terrorised.
Think before you open your mouth.
NOT AN EXAMPLE OF TERRORISM? ARE YOU SERIOUS? I can't think of a more perfect example of terrorism then IRA bombings on civilian targets that are COMPLETELY UNWARRENTED.
CIVILIANS GET IT ?????? NOT GOVERNMENT NOT ARMY CIVILIANS and who continues the conflict who doesn't resolves their indifferences YES THATS RIGHT SHEIN FEIN
LOSERS
NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-24-2003, 03:31 PM
o and i do not condone what the soldiers did on Bloody Sunday
BUT anyone who hails TERRORISTS who commit random acts of violence against inoccent people as martyrs or heroes is Scum.
Anyone who condones their actions are scum. What do you have to say for yourself?
Northern Ireland isn't considered Irish soil either altho i would prefer it to be if it would stop the IRA bombing England.
As for you lot fighting its pathetic. No one understands what it is about. Is it about seperatism. Breaking away links from the UK. If so i would like someone to pursue that course of action so that no further conflicts occur or any Terrorist bombing. I do not consider this giving in to demands as i don't care about some land dispute. Innocent people getting killed is another matter and the people responsible should be punished accordingly not hailed as heroes as they are pure utter Scum.
BUT anyone who hails TERRORISTS who commit random acts of violence against inoccent people as martyrs or heroes is Scum.
Anyone who condones their actions are scum. What do you have to say for yourself?
Northern Ireland isn't considered Irish soil either altho i would prefer it to be if it would stop the IRA bombing England.
As for you lot fighting its pathetic. No one understands what it is about. Is it about seperatism. Breaking away links from the UK. If so i would like someone to pursue that course of action so that no further conflicts occur or any Terrorist bombing. I do not consider this giving in to demands as i don't care about some land dispute. Innocent people getting killed is another matter and the people responsible should be punished accordingly not hailed as heroes as they are pure utter Scum.
taranaki
06-24-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by NSX-R-SSJ20K
sod off
This is not the standard of debate that is acceptable in this forum.Suggest you edit your post before I do.
Aside from that,I have a lot of sympathy for your standpoint.The terrorists operating in Ireland today have shown themselves to be completely without discipline,leadership or any kind of ethics.While those who call themselves the leaders try to negotiate a peaceful solution,the ill-disciplined and the disafFected within the ranks are busy buildin truck bombs.
The IRA ARE TERRORISTS
Northern Ireland remains part of Great Britain,and will do so until the people of Northern Ireland are united in their wish to change.At present there are many many good people who are loyal to the crown.Until such times as the TERRORIST attacks on these people cease,the troops have my full support.
As for Bloody Sunday - The IRA has murdered a hundred times that number of civilians since 1972.Any organisation that preaches hate over an incident and then proceeds to mimic that incident for thirty years is populated by criminals.
Baroness Thatcher lives on.London carries on as usual.The chances of George Bush turning against his own allies in support of terrorists?What a joke.The IRA is doomed to failure.GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!
sod off
This is not the standard of debate that is acceptable in this forum.Suggest you edit your post before I do.
Aside from that,I have a lot of sympathy for your standpoint.The terrorists operating in Ireland today have shown themselves to be completely without discipline,leadership or any kind of ethics.While those who call themselves the leaders try to negotiate a peaceful solution,the ill-disciplined and the disafFected within the ranks are busy buildin truck bombs.
The IRA ARE TERRORISTS
Northern Ireland remains part of Great Britain,and will do so until the people of Northern Ireland are united in their wish to change.At present there are many many good people who are loyal to the crown.Until such times as the TERRORIST attacks on these people cease,the troops have my full support.
As for Bloody Sunday - The IRA has murdered a hundred times that number of civilians since 1972.Any organisation that preaches hate over an incident and then proceeds to mimic that incident for thirty years is populated by criminals.
Baroness Thatcher lives on.London carries on as usual.The chances of George Bush turning against his own allies in support of terrorists?What a joke.The IRA is doomed to failure.GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!
Toksin
06-25-2003, 12:04 AM
The IRA may have started out with a "nobel cause" but that was long ago warped and twisted into plain, bitter, hate. Now they are just terrorist murderers, with Sinn Fein trying to convince the world that they are not.
Dublinguy
06-25-2003, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by NSX-R-SSJ20K
o and i do not condone what the soldiers did on Bloody Sunday
BUT anyone who hails TERRORISTS who commit random acts of violence against inoccent people as martyrs or heroes is Scum.
Anyone who condones their actions are scum. What do you have to say for yourself? .....
Originally posted by Dublinguy
Granted I dont agree with the tactics used by the IRA of today and they are certianly not the same IRA that my grandfather fought with....
I believe that answers your question. I did not, have not and will not condone what 'Todays' IRA have done. I believe I made that very clear with the above statement. But what I dont agree with is the fact that the british Military, Police and government unlawfully detained innocent men and women, ie Guilford 4, Birmingham 6. Then abused, beat and drowned these people in baths of blood, piss and shit to get a confession out of them. I dont believe the so called great Baroness Thatcher should have allowed Bobby Sands to die while on Hunger Strike while in the company of her Majesties Pleasure. He admitted he did wrong but under the rules of war he was entitled to certain things, ie not wear prison uniforms. Thatcher allowed him to die to prove a point and send out a warning to any other prisoners of war that they were to do as they were told. I dont believe it is right for an army to use their position as an excuse to fire among innocent 'CIVILIANS' and then not have the balls to stand up and be counted for it. I dont believe it is right that it is the IRA and that are being pressurised to disarm when Loyalist paramilitries are not. They too have killed innocent 'CIVILIANS', bombing Dublin and Monaghan in May 1974 were 34 'CIVILIANS' were killed, one killed on 20th Jan 1973 and two killed on 1st December 1972.
I dont believe one drop of blood should have been shed on either side over the years but it has and it is the IRA and Sinn Fein that have got the bad wrap even though the British have carried out many wrong doings over the years.
Many of the bombimgs that have been attributed to the IRA over the last two years are incorrect and have actually been carried out by splinter groups of the IRA that neither Sinn Fein nor the IRA hold any affiliation with.
So before you jump all over me accusing me of being scum at least understand both sides of the arguement. Cromwells war cry to the Irish was to hell or to Connaught. Connaught was not an option 800 years ago as the land was baron and useless. This was the start of the whole war between the British and the Irish and the British have not done one thing to try and stop it instead they antagonised the nationalist population more and more over the years. The British had no right to occupy Ireland 800 years ago and still they have no right.
Ciaran
o and i do not condone what the soldiers did on Bloody Sunday
BUT anyone who hails TERRORISTS who commit random acts of violence against inoccent people as martyrs or heroes is Scum.
Anyone who condones their actions are scum. What do you have to say for yourself? .....
Originally posted by Dublinguy
Granted I dont agree with the tactics used by the IRA of today and they are certianly not the same IRA that my grandfather fought with....
I believe that answers your question. I did not, have not and will not condone what 'Todays' IRA have done. I believe I made that very clear with the above statement. But what I dont agree with is the fact that the british Military, Police and government unlawfully detained innocent men and women, ie Guilford 4, Birmingham 6. Then abused, beat and drowned these people in baths of blood, piss and shit to get a confession out of them. I dont believe the so called great Baroness Thatcher should have allowed Bobby Sands to die while on Hunger Strike while in the company of her Majesties Pleasure. He admitted he did wrong but under the rules of war he was entitled to certain things, ie not wear prison uniforms. Thatcher allowed him to die to prove a point and send out a warning to any other prisoners of war that they were to do as they were told. I dont believe it is right for an army to use their position as an excuse to fire among innocent 'CIVILIANS' and then not have the balls to stand up and be counted for it. I dont believe it is right that it is the IRA and that are being pressurised to disarm when Loyalist paramilitries are not. They too have killed innocent 'CIVILIANS', bombing Dublin and Monaghan in May 1974 were 34 'CIVILIANS' were killed, one killed on 20th Jan 1973 and two killed on 1st December 1972.
I dont believe one drop of blood should have been shed on either side over the years but it has and it is the IRA and Sinn Fein that have got the bad wrap even though the British have carried out many wrong doings over the years.
Many of the bombimgs that have been attributed to the IRA over the last two years are incorrect and have actually been carried out by splinter groups of the IRA that neither Sinn Fein nor the IRA hold any affiliation with.
So before you jump all over me accusing me of being scum at least understand both sides of the arguement. Cromwells war cry to the Irish was to hell or to Connaught. Connaught was not an option 800 years ago as the land was baron and useless. This was the start of the whole war between the British and the Irish and the British have not done one thing to try and stop it instead they antagonised the nationalist population more and more over the years. The British had no right to occupy Ireland 800 years ago and still they have no right.
Ciaran
NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-25-2003, 06:36 AM
dude you're bringing up things from the past that are better left forgotten. If people continue this line of thought that they are getting a worse deal than anyone else then no one will be at peace there still will be hatred between groups and jealousy of ones neighbour.
The only thing i am not clear on is why they are fighting. Is it just a religous feud or territorial? Want of seperaing from the mainland?
The only thing i am not clear on is why they are fighting. Is it just a religous feud or territorial? Want of seperaing from the mainland?
Sierra Six
06-25-2003, 07:24 AM
Alright Dublinguy,
What, then, of the British soldiers that have been beaten, tortured, castrated and had their gentialia stuffed in their mouth? What of the soldiers that have vanished?
What of the civilian kneecappings and deaths, just because they refuse to pay the IRA (either the Provos or Real) protection money.
They were not POWs are they were not/ are not part of a legal countries Armed Forces.
The IRA, all factions, have done far far worse than any British soldier ever could. Granted, the Brits have not always been nice.
That whole conflict could be cleaned up in a matter of months, but the politions wont allow it.
What, then, of the British soldiers that have been beaten, tortured, castrated and had their gentialia stuffed in their mouth? What of the soldiers that have vanished?
What of the civilian kneecappings and deaths, just because they refuse to pay the IRA (either the Provos or Real) protection money.
They were not POWs are they were not/ are not part of a legal countries Armed Forces.
The IRA, all factions, have done far far worse than any British soldier ever could. Granted, the Brits have not always been nice.
That whole conflict could be cleaned up in a matter of months, but the politions wont allow it.
Dublinguy
06-25-2003, 08:54 AM
NSX-R-SSJ20K,
The things from the past that I have raised are only being raised to make clear the point that it is the IRA who are being blamed for the on going struggle to find peace. But it is not just the IRA who have contributed to this hatred as my examples point out and if there is to be peace then there has to be a share of the blame from all sides of the struggle, IRA, British and Irish governments and Loyalists. In todays media blame is squarely placed on the IRA and that just simply isnt the case. As for the reasons for fighting some small minded people will put it down to religion, I for one am not one of these people. I am a nationalist and believe in a united Ireland under total Irish rule. I have nothing against protestants or British people I have friends who are protestant and it never was and never is an issue. I have a very dear and close friend who is English and I have never seen it as a problem. We use it more as a joke more then anything. I have only had one bad experience with an English man where I was accused of being an IRA bastard....all because I wore a Celtic FC jersey in an English pub the day Ireland played Cyprus in their last qualifier for the world cup. And I might add that the pub was showing the Irish game and english fans joined me in supporting Ireland.
Sierra Six,
The attacks on Brittish soldiers you talk about where brought on by the Heavy handed way in which the British treated the situation in the North. They came in with the attitude that every man, woman and child was a member of the IRA and victimised many families even though they had no affiliation with the IRA. If you back a wild animal into a corner it will retaliate and this is what happened to the British Soldiers. A lot like the Black and Tans in 1916.
Punishment beatings are carried out by both the IRA and the Loyalists and this again confirms my point that the world media have made the IRA out to be scapegoats for punishment attacks even though the Loyalists are still carrying them out. This also proves my point that it should not just be the IRA that should de-militarise and dis-arm but also the Loyalists must do that as well. But neither the British government nor the Loyalist parties have called for that. When the first of the weapons was given up by the IRA not one gun was handed over by the Loyalists.
Bobby Sands was classified as a Political Prisoner by the British Government who later change the laws to suit themselves and would class any IRA member as a common criminal thus stripping them of political status. Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers went on strike against this as the way the law was being changed was unlawful and unjust.
Ciaran
The things from the past that I have raised are only being raised to make clear the point that it is the IRA who are being blamed for the on going struggle to find peace. But it is not just the IRA who have contributed to this hatred as my examples point out and if there is to be peace then there has to be a share of the blame from all sides of the struggle, IRA, British and Irish governments and Loyalists. In todays media blame is squarely placed on the IRA and that just simply isnt the case. As for the reasons for fighting some small minded people will put it down to religion, I for one am not one of these people. I am a nationalist and believe in a united Ireland under total Irish rule. I have nothing against protestants or British people I have friends who are protestant and it never was and never is an issue. I have a very dear and close friend who is English and I have never seen it as a problem. We use it more as a joke more then anything. I have only had one bad experience with an English man where I was accused of being an IRA bastard....all because I wore a Celtic FC jersey in an English pub the day Ireland played Cyprus in their last qualifier for the world cup. And I might add that the pub was showing the Irish game and english fans joined me in supporting Ireland.
Sierra Six,
The attacks on Brittish soldiers you talk about where brought on by the Heavy handed way in which the British treated the situation in the North. They came in with the attitude that every man, woman and child was a member of the IRA and victimised many families even though they had no affiliation with the IRA. If you back a wild animal into a corner it will retaliate and this is what happened to the British Soldiers. A lot like the Black and Tans in 1916.
Punishment beatings are carried out by both the IRA and the Loyalists and this again confirms my point that the world media have made the IRA out to be scapegoats for punishment attacks even though the Loyalists are still carrying them out. This also proves my point that it should not just be the IRA that should de-militarise and dis-arm but also the Loyalists must do that as well. But neither the British government nor the Loyalist parties have called for that. When the first of the weapons was given up by the IRA not one gun was handed over by the Loyalists.
Bobby Sands was classified as a Political Prisoner by the British Government who later change the laws to suit themselves and would class any IRA member as a common criminal thus stripping them of political status. Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers went on strike against this as the way the law was being changed was unlawful and unjust.
Ciaran
Sierra Six
06-25-2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Dublinguy
NSX-R-SSJ20K,
Bobby Sands was classified as a Political Prisoner by the British Government who later change the laws to suit themselves and would class any IRA member as a common criminal thus stripping them of political status. Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers went on strike against this as the way the law was being changed was unlawful and unjust.
Ciaran
Thats quite interesting. I admit its been awhile since I've had a good look at the conflict. I'll do some research and come back to this. I admit, I didnt know the loyalists carried out beatings.
NSX-R-SSJ20K,
Bobby Sands was classified as a Political Prisoner by the British Government who later change the laws to suit themselves and would class any IRA member as a common criminal thus stripping them of political status. Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers went on strike against this as the way the law was being changed was unlawful and unjust.
Ciaran
Thats quite interesting. I admit its been awhile since I've had a good look at the conflict. I'll do some research and come back to this. I admit, I didnt know the loyalists carried out beatings.
Dublinguy
06-25-2003, 09:08 AM
Sierra Six,
Thank you, you just made my point for me that it is the media who percieves the IRA as being the only ones fighting and clearly they are not.
Have a read of this and it will explain the Hunger Strikes and the conditions that they were put under. http://www.bobbysandstrust.org/blanket.asp
Ciaran
Thank you, you just made my point for me that it is the media who percieves the IRA as being the only ones fighting and clearly they are not.
Have a read of this and it will explain the Hunger Strikes and the conditions that they were put under. http://www.bobbysandstrust.org/blanket.asp
Ciaran
NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-25-2003, 10:29 AM
Blame?
Blame for what?
I don't think something like that could be solved and forgetting and forgiving and just trying to come to some sort of peace agreement should be persued first. Digging around for blame will just piss people off.
Newspapers = Shite nothing but lies and rubbish.
Blame for what?
I don't think something like that could be solved and forgetting and forgiving and just trying to come to some sort of peace agreement should be persued first. Digging around for blame will just piss people off.
Newspapers = Shite nothing but lies and rubbish.
Dublinguy
06-25-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by NSX-R-SSJ20K
Blame?
Blame for what?
I don't think something like that could be solved and forgetting and forgiving and just trying to come to some sort of peace agreement should be persued first. Digging around for blame will just piss people off.
Newspapers = Shite nothing but lies and rubbish.
Thats my point that people have been persuaded by the media that it is only the IRA that are at fault and like I have said before that is simply not the case.
Blame:
IRA: To blame for killing of innocent civilians not matter the number.
British Army: For killing and victimisation of innocent civilians
British Government: For unlawful detention and persecution of innocent people.
Irish Government: For not making a stronger stand and wanting the British Government to sort the mess out which was wrong.
Loyalists: For punishment beatings and killings of innocent civilians.
So the blame lies at everyones door and if everyone was to admit their faults and failings it would instill trust within each political party allowing for better talks and a possible road to peace.
Ciaran
Blame?
Blame for what?
I don't think something like that could be solved and forgetting and forgiving and just trying to come to some sort of peace agreement should be persued first. Digging around for blame will just piss people off.
Newspapers = Shite nothing but lies and rubbish.
Thats my point that people have been persuaded by the media that it is only the IRA that are at fault and like I have said before that is simply not the case.
Blame:
IRA: To blame for killing of innocent civilians not matter the number.
British Army: For killing and victimisation of innocent civilians
British Government: For unlawful detention and persecution of innocent people.
Irish Government: For not making a stronger stand and wanting the British Government to sort the mess out which was wrong.
Loyalists: For punishment beatings and killings of innocent civilians.
So the blame lies at everyones door and if everyone was to admit their faults and failings it would instill trust within each political party allowing for better talks and a possible road to peace.
Ciaran
NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-25-2003, 10:45 AM
yea but the IRA are the only ones who bombed mainland england so they're the only ones who are going to get grilled. Sorry but out of that lot IRA is the worst.
Dublinguy
06-25-2003, 10:54 AM
So firing amongst unarmed civilians is ok? or beating a confession out of an innocent man is ok? or removing basic human privlidges so a prisoner will fall into line is ok? or planting evidence and fixing trials is ok?
You still seemed to be fixed on the perseption that it is the IRA to blame for everything and no other part of the arguement has done anything wrong.
If the British Government and Loyalists are telling the IRA they must dis-arm to enter talks do you believe the Loyalists should be told likewise?
As for "It was the IRA who bombed the 'Mainland' England", the Loyalists have bombed and killed Southern parts of Ireland namely Monaghan and Dublin.
Ciaran
You still seemed to be fixed on the perseption that it is the IRA to blame for everything and no other part of the arguement has done anything wrong.
If the British Government and Loyalists are telling the IRA they must dis-arm to enter talks do you believe the Loyalists should be told likewise?
As for "It was the IRA who bombed the 'Mainland' England", the Loyalists have bombed and killed Southern parts of Ireland namely Monaghan and Dublin.
Ciaran
gigatron
06-25-2003, 12:25 PM
This in many ways is like any other land that was occupied. The local people are forgotten. Exploited. Forgotten. Exploited... and so on.. What ever the IRA is today it started as a fight for freedom and from occupation. They could do nothing and the British from the start made sure they would remain terrorists and it's actually the British defending themselves (so they would make it appear).
In Palestine, Israel was never in existence for 2000 years. But out of the blue with the aid of the imperials which were the British and French, Israel occupies at first 50% (Don't give me the UN or league of nations BS.. who controlled and put together generally speaking the UN, league of nations, etc...). Regardless of whatever 'law'. That was 50% of some people's land given to another people. Through the conflict with manipualation of media, etc... people over here believe it's the Palestineans who are ATTACKING the Israelis and that the Israelis are DEFENDING THEIR LAND. Funny how the british were involved here too :/
And please.. how can you even defend the British imperium? They were the evil of the last few centuries. This again has nothing to do with civillians but the royalty, politicians, so on and so forth.
Although sadly I can picture certain people going about "KILL THEM, BURN THEM!" but never mind that.
If you were kicked out of your home, had your family killed, what would you do? I bet you wouldn't restrain yourself but would bomb theirs with the agressive attitude most would give. Most of these organizations that turned 'radical' were not in an agressive tone to begin with and they were more and more shunned as a JOKE. They lose hope and they become agressive and desperate in that sense. It's what both the British and Israelis in the long run expected. And you know it's 'funny' per say... because that is exactly what Begin was once quoted saying about the Palestineans and how after being ignored and humiliated some more they will turn radical and the Israelis will win.
PS - The victors write history.... and that is what is happening. Regardless of how bloody and evil their victory might have been. The loser has little say.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Remember, these people are fighting for their land, and it's their land. Sometimes do ethics really matter when you are kicked out of your own home? It's a complicated issue. I can just picture most of you trying to shoot the guy. And you know and intruder in a house and a gun in a house, more then likely the owner of the house will try and protect himself with that gun. Or call the police because they have guns.. :bloated:
In Palestine, Israel was never in existence for 2000 years. But out of the blue with the aid of the imperials which were the British and French, Israel occupies at first 50% (Don't give me the UN or league of nations BS.. who controlled and put together generally speaking the UN, league of nations, etc...). Regardless of whatever 'law'. That was 50% of some people's land given to another people. Through the conflict with manipualation of media, etc... people over here believe it's the Palestineans who are ATTACKING the Israelis and that the Israelis are DEFENDING THEIR LAND. Funny how the british were involved here too :/
And please.. how can you even defend the British imperium? They were the evil of the last few centuries. This again has nothing to do with civillians but the royalty, politicians, so on and so forth.
Although sadly I can picture certain people going about "KILL THEM, BURN THEM!" but never mind that.
If you were kicked out of your home, had your family killed, what would you do? I bet you wouldn't restrain yourself but would bomb theirs with the agressive attitude most would give. Most of these organizations that turned 'radical' were not in an agressive tone to begin with and they were more and more shunned as a JOKE. They lose hope and they become agressive and desperate in that sense. It's what both the British and Israelis in the long run expected. And you know it's 'funny' per say... because that is exactly what Begin was once quoted saying about the Palestineans and how after being ignored and humiliated some more they will turn radical and the Israelis will win.
PS - The victors write history.... and that is what is happening. Regardless of how bloody and evil their victory might have been. The loser has little say.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Remember, these people are fighting for their land, and it's their land. Sometimes do ethics really matter when you are kicked out of your own home? It's a complicated issue. I can just picture most of you trying to shoot the guy. And you know and intruder in a house and a gun in a house, more then likely the owner of the house will try and protect himself with that gun. Or call the police because they have guns.. :bloated:
Sierra Six
06-25-2003, 12:46 PM
I havent even bothered to read the above thread.
gigatron
06-25-2003, 01:21 PM
I love your tank
freakray
06-25-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by gigatron
I love your tank
You said you weren't posting in here anymore......now make up your mind!!! :rolleyes:
I love your tank
You said you weren't posting in here anymore......now make up your mind!!! :rolleyes:
gigatron
06-25-2003, 01:58 PM
You are desperate to get rid of me now too :) No. And actually I stopped posting in the other thread.
I just love your advanced experiences and profound knowledge of the people of this earth I just couldn't leave this thread alone.
Point is: Either people don't know the issue at hand to consider the idea of someone stealing someone's land and someone doing anything to get it back. Or people have something to benefit from an act of invasion.
There will always be two sides that support or don't support whichever side. There is no neutral, because quite frankly neutral is just hiding one's views from one and the other side if they are both present.
I just love your advanced experiences and profound knowledge of the people of this earth I just couldn't leave this thread alone.
Point is: Either people don't know the issue at hand to consider the idea of someone stealing someone's land and someone doing anything to get it back. Or people have something to benefit from an act of invasion.
There will always be two sides that support or don't support whichever side. There is no neutral, because quite frankly neutral is just hiding one's views from one and the other side if they are both present.
NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-25-2003, 02:17 PM
cowardly acts are no excuse for wanting some land back
incidently they can have it back if it'll stop the senseless violence
and you sir said you were leaving the forum.
incidently they can have it back if it'll stop the senseless violence
and you sir said you were leaving the forum.
freakray
06-25-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by gigatron
You are desperate to get rid of me now too :) No. And actually I stopped posting in the other thread.
I just love your advanced experiences and profound knowledge of the people of this earth I just couldn't leave this thread alone.
Point is: Either people don't know the issue at hand to consider the idea of someone stealing someone's land and someone doing anything to get it back. Or people have something to benefit from an act of invasion.
There will always be two sides that support or don't support whichever side. There is no neutral, because quite frankly neutral is just hiding one's views from one and the other side if they are both present.
I grew up in Africa, I have seen many people have their land taken from them, people of both African and European origin.
You on the other hand live in your cotton-ball protected world where you developed your opinions from reading whereas I developed mine from experiencing things.
Other than to ask you why you were posting here, I didn't post in this thread before, so how could I have any bearing on what caused you to post in this thread?
Frankly Gigatron, I think you're more full of BS than even GW himself.
Originally posted by NSX-R-SSJ20K
and you sir said you were leaving the forum.
Yes, but any good politician changes their story to suit the circumstances, just as our good man Gigatron has done.....:rolleyes:
You are desperate to get rid of me now too :) No. And actually I stopped posting in the other thread.
I just love your advanced experiences and profound knowledge of the people of this earth I just couldn't leave this thread alone.
Point is: Either people don't know the issue at hand to consider the idea of someone stealing someone's land and someone doing anything to get it back. Or people have something to benefit from an act of invasion.
There will always be two sides that support or don't support whichever side. There is no neutral, because quite frankly neutral is just hiding one's views from one and the other side if they are both present.
I grew up in Africa, I have seen many people have their land taken from them, people of both African and European origin.
You on the other hand live in your cotton-ball protected world where you developed your opinions from reading whereas I developed mine from experiencing things.
Other than to ask you why you were posting here, I didn't post in this thread before, so how could I have any bearing on what caused you to post in this thread?
Frankly Gigatron, I think you're more full of BS than even GW himself.
Originally posted by NSX-R-SSJ20K
and you sir said you were leaving the forum.
Yes, but any good politician changes their story to suit the circumstances, just as our good man Gigatron has done.....:rolleyes:
gigatron
06-25-2003, 06:10 PM
Yes i'm sure.. I grew up in warm cotton comfort... Thanks for knowing where I lived. I actually went through real war in former-yugoslavia and I lived in north africa for a 1/3 of my life. Just thought I mentioned that in my long posts that you find hard to read. Doesn't matter where you come from you can have various opinions. Just thought I'd mention that kindly. I advise people not to waste time arguing with this bunch :)
LoL GW funny. And you may not like GW but if you conciously let him by and his hooligans, you are basically supporting them and 'liking them'.
Only reason why I replied in this thread solely was because you went on a rampage against that guy. That's that I have better things to talk about then waste my time since i'm clearly wasting your time too :) In the long run you'll be wrong again.. just how the whole war in Iraq was wrong.
PS - you have to look at the root of the problem :/
LoL GW funny. And you may not like GW but if you conciously let him by and his hooligans, you are basically supporting them and 'liking them'.
Only reason why I replied in this thread solely was because you went on a rampage against that guy. That's that I have better things to talk about then waste my time since i'm clearly wasting your time too :) In the long run you'll be wrong again.. just how the whole war in Iraq was wrong.
PS - you have to look at the root of the problem :/
freakray
06-25-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by gigatron
Yes i'm sure.. I grew up in warm cotton comfort... Thanks for knowing where I lived. I actually went through real war in former-yugoslavia and I lived in north africa for a 1/3 of my life. Just thought I mentioned that in my long posts that you find hard to read. Doesn't matter where you come from you can have various opinions. Just thought I'd mention that kindly. I advise people not to waste time arguing with this bunch :)
LoL GW funny. And you may not like GW but if you conciously let him by and his hooligans, you are basically supporting them and 'liking them'.
Only reason why I replied in this thread solely was because you went on a rampage against that guy. That's that I have better things to talk about then waste my time since i'm clearly wasting your time too :) In the long run you'll be wrong again.. just how the whole war in Iraq was wrong.
PS - you have to look at the root of the problem :/
There you go again..... I only posted in this thread to ask why you were posting.....read the whole thread and you will see my ONLY post was after yours.....
You can't even get the facts in front of you straight, why should we expect anything else.....
Yes i'm sure.. I grew up in warm cotton comfort... Thanks for knowing where I lived. I actually went through real war in former-yugoslavia and I lived in north africa for a 1/3 of my life. Just thought I mentioned that in my long posts that you find hard to read. Doesn't matter where you come from you can have various opinions. Just thought I'd mention that kindly. I advise people not to waste time arguing with this bunch :)
LoL GW funny. And you may not like GW but if you conciously let him by and his hooligans, you are basically supporting them and 'liking them'.
Only reason why I replied in this thread solely was because you went on a rampage against that guy. That's that I have better things to talk about then waste my time since i'm clearly wasting your time too :) In the long run you'll be wrong again.. just how the whole war in Iraq was wrong.
PS - you have to look at the root of the problem :/
There you go again..... I only posted in this thread to ask why you were posting.....read the whole thread and you will see my ONLY post was after yours.....
You can't even get the facts in front of you straight, why should we expect anything else.....
NSX-R-SSJ20K
06-26-2003, 06:43 AM
or respect what you say.
Why the hell are you so against George W anyway?
What gives you the right to say neutral people are with George Bush cuz Yogs said the opposite.
Read the thread stop acting like an ass who knows it all when he really really doesn't and is showing a bigger lack of respect and larger amount of ignorance than the stereotypical american
Why the hell are you so against George W anyway?
What gives you the right to say neutral people are with George Bush cuz Yogs said the opposite.
Read the thread stop acting like an ass who knows it all when he really really doesn't and is showing a bigger lack of respect and larger amount of ignorance than the stereotypical american
taranaki
06-26-2003, 09:33 AM
Sorry guys,this thread,which started so well with an EXCELLENT post by a man who actually lives in the region under discussion,has been reduced to a stupid trolling exercise by a single member.
This kind of bullshit will not be allowed to continue in this forum,afinal warning has been issued,if that does not solve the problem please feel free to request further action.
This kind of bullshit will not be allowed to continue in this forum,afinal warning has been issued,if that does not solve the problem please feel free to request further action.
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