4g63 - outdated and archaic?

What do you think?

A few points to consider:

-This engine been used since first Evo
-Good because: a) more aftermarket support
b) less costs for Mitsu - economies of scale etc
and c) part of Evo's heritage

-Outdated? Although it can produce good power when modified, it has been used for 10 long years, and technology is a problem (although the ACD and AYC that talk to each other are awesome).

What about V-tec and VVti , and DOHC engines in general. All over 10 yrs old. Doesn't make them archaic now...just brilliant engine designs. The 4G63 is basically the perfect engine (with the exception of the balance-shafts) Its a hemi-head engine with 4 valves and a centrally located spark plug. And it can handle constant use at 7000 rpms for extended periods and can handle over 450 Hp without any internal mods. Can't get much better than that.:cool:

4G63 is older than 10 years old, more like closer to 20 years.
It was originally SOHC in the mitsubishi Cordia and Starions etc etc.
It then became DOHC for the EVO.
It is a good engine, why change something thats good.
Its still more advanced than the pushrod LS1's etc etc.
Over each EVO things have been changed to the engine, it has been continually EVOlving, it is not the same engine it was in the EVO 1.

Originally posted by phatdex
4G63 is older than 10 years old, more like closer to 20 years.
It was originally SOHC in the mitsubishi Cordia and Starions etc etc.
It then became DOHC for the EVO.
It is a good engine, why change something thats good.
Its still more advanced than the pushrod LS1's etc etc.
Over each EVO things have been changed to the engine, it has been continually EVOlving, it is not the same engine it was in the EVO 1.

The Starions had a completely different motor. It was Mitsu's 2.4 liter truck engine that powered that beast.

Actually the Starion's a 2.6l.

The Cordia and Turbo Mirages ran the 4g61 and 4g62 I believe, which were not quite the same, but the basis for the 4g63 as we now know it.

I believe the 4G63 as we know it was originally released in the 1989 Galant VR-4 [precursor to the Evolutions we know today]

The 4G63 is is reliable, tuneable and easy to maintian - much eaiser than newer, more advanced computer controlled efforts. OK, it might be old, but 'tried and tested' aswell - If it aint broke, don't fix it !

While the 4G63 is old, it is certainly still a very potent engine. There might be some newer technology that Mitsubishi could incorporate into the design, however.

I think HKS has created some sort of variable cam timing system for engines without it from the factory. Surely Mitsubishi could do the same to the 4G63 if they wanted to go longer before replacing it. A variable cam 4G63 would be a nice competitor for Nissan's SR20VET...actually, it would probably destroy it.hehe

Originally posted by Japmetal
I believe the 4G63 as we know it was originally released in the 1989 Galant VR-4 [precursor to the Evolutions we know today]




Pretty much what I was going to say- although I believe the Galant VR4 was Twin Turbo :bloated: not sure if that statement is true or not- just what i've heard. anyway- nothing is wrong with the 4G63- it has proven a reliable motor- capable of serious power and in gerneral a great engine:smile:

Da Jimister is da wrongster. :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:


The First VR4s were all Single Turbo 4g63 powered, and lasted only as long as it took for Mitsi to realise they were to big and heavy to ever be competitive, at which point they simply took the complete drive line and dumped it in a Lance, so creating the first EVO.

The VR4 then became truely big fat and heavy, and great Sports Sedan.
The 4g63 was replaced by a Twin Turbo V6 similar to the GTO engine.
Since the VR4 refers to the 4WD, they retained the VR4 name, and didnt become the VR6.



The 4g63 is an old clunker that needs to be buried with the rest of the worlds engines that were developed in the 80s.
It was a great engine, but its time has come and passed, the EVO VIII will be its last use.

However Im sure that Mitsi will have no trouble replacing it with something just as great, if not greater. By developing the 4g63 to the extent that they have Im sure they've learned more than just a few things that can be applied to a new greater engine.
Remember they are considered one of the worlds leading Turbo charged engine builders, if not the best.

The current 4G63 as we know it today first came out on the Lancer Evolution 4, (late 1996's-early 1997) which has its cam gears located on the opposite side of the previous 4G63 as used on USDM Eclipses and Galant VR-4's.

This engine shares basically the valvetrain with the older engine, but the block and head, as well as the internals are new. It still has the same bore (85mm) and stroke (87mm) dimensions as the older one, but the curent 4G63 is more compact, lighter, and has a higher compression ratio (8.8:1) than the previous model (8.5:1) and still uses balancer shafts. It however has a distributorless ignition system compared to the distributor-type of the older one.

I think then that the current 4G63 is relatively new. I'd only want a slightly larger bore to increase displacement (but to do so would require a totally new block and head), and probabaly get rid of the balancer shafts.

That said, the current engine has a limit of about 350-370 crank HP for it to perform reliably on the track (prolonged WOT) before something starts breaking. Still, that's a lot for circuit racing. :)

By the way, the second generation Galant VR-4 came with the 6A12TT engine, a 2.0 liter twin turbo V6 engine, and the 3rd gen (current) Galant VR-4 came with the 6A13TT engine, a 2.5 liter twin turbo engine. Both engines have 24 valve heads and dohc per cylinder bank or quad-cam set-up and distributorless ignition systems. :)

Originally posted by Moppie
Da Jimister is da wrongster. :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:


The First VR4s were all Single Turbo 4g63 powered, and lasted only as long as it took for Mitsi to realise they were to big and heavy to ever be competitive, at which point they simply took the complete drive line and dumped it in a Lance, so creating the first EVO.

The VR4 then became truely big fat and heavy, and great Sports Sedan.
The 4g63 was replaced by a Twin Turbo V6 similar to the GTO engine.
Since the VR4 refers to the 4WD, they retained the VR4 name, and didnt become the VR6.



The 4g63 is an old clunker that needs to be buried with the rest of the worlds engines that were developed in the 80s.
It was a great engine, but its time has come and passed, the EVO VIII will be its last use.

However Im sure that Mitsi will have no trouble replacing it with something just as great, if not greater. By developing the 4g63 to the extent that they have Im sure they've learned more than just a few things that can be applied to a new greater engine.
Remember they are considered one of the worlds leading Turbo charged engine builders, if not the best.


Yeah I getcha now- hence why I said I wasn't sure- interesting though :bloated:

Yes the 4G63 is an ancient engine- and I guess I agree that it should join the SR20 and RB engines :D but I have very little credibility for Mitsubishi as a company at the moment- aside from the Evo VIII can you name a good car currently made by Mitsubishi???? The Cedia/Lancer is ugly and a right dishwasher- if you get my drift, the Diamante is old news and rather boring, same with the Galant, the Space star is just stupid- with no real strengths aside from practicality, the Nimbus is outclassed by all competition, the Pajero is a shadow of it's former self, need I go on???? The new Colt however should brighten things up a little though.

but can Mitsubishi do any better than the 4G63??? That's something that'd be interesting to see. They are a talented company- but they have lost thier way recently


Do they still make the GTO????:confused:

Originally posted by Jimster




Do they still make the GTO????:confused:


I believe its gone the way of the Supra, and even if it is still made its now very out dated, remember its built useing 80s technology.


The new Ausi spec Daimante is great car! Especialy the AWD and Rally Art versions. Lots of hp, but despite being FWD still useable.

I dont know about the Jap spec cars, but then they are build for a very differnt market.

the curent 4G63 .............. however has a distributorless ignition system compared to the distributor-type of the older one]


I have a 1990 [first-generation] 4G63, which also has electric ignition :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Japmetal
the curent 4G63 .............. however has a distributorless ignition system compared to the distributor-type of the older one]


I have a 1990 [first-generation] 4G63, which also has electric ignition :rolleyes:

Yes, but AFAIK your 4G63 has a single coil and uses a distributor right? (please correct me if I'm wrong :) ) whereas the current 4G63 has 2 ignition coils and no distributor, each ignition coil powering 2 cylinders each.

Originally posted by Moppie



I believe its gone the way of the Supra, and even if it is still made its now very out dated, remember its built useing 80s technology.


The new Ausi spec Daimante is great car! Especialy the AWD and Rally Art versions. Lots of hp, but despite being FWD still useable.

I dont know about the Jap spec cars, but then they are build for a very differnt market.

An AWD Diamante sounds right up my Alley- what are the Ralliart ones like??? I do remember driving a VRX and thinking that the VQ30 Maxima was better- but neither of them really did anything for me.

I have NO distributor [this is what makes it electronic ignition] but it only has a single coil.

Part of what made the 1989 VR-4 [when the 4G63 was released]special was the fact it came with full electric ignition.

No F'n way. The 4G63 in a work of art and like any work of art Over time it will be reveared and sought after even more than it is now.


DSM Love :evillol:

I would agree with that too; These older engines are also so much easier to understand/work on/maintain since the electronic control of them is much more basic than newer engines - most new engines are pretty much impossible to work on for the home mechanic for anything other than basic maintenance.

4g63 is a work of art and be sure that Mitsubishi will came the right time with the right engine DONT RUSH
From evo IV and up there are many changes and there is no doubt about it
Already Mitsubishi came with a new VR4 engine 2.5 Twin Turbo and there are more to come
Evo's are beasts
Those who try to put them down in because they cannot race them 0-400 HEH............................................... ...........
I used to own a 92' 1.8 GSR AWD and i was doing 11.2 0-400m at 27psi with a T3-T4 turbonetics with $3000 mods and PROBLEM FREE and i used to drive it in the city as well.
Just tell me another car that can do that.All others are just stories.

To be quite honest, the only difference between the new 4G63 (Evo IV and on) and the original 4G63 (EVO I-III, and the DSM's) is the materials used and the hollowed out titanium cams. Everything else is primarily the same.

The orginal 4g63 was an 8 valve dinosour that first saw light in the early 80s in the Starion.
There was a major redisgn at the end of the 80s when the engine gained another 8 valves and full electronic ignition then was used in the new Gallant.
It was then redesigned again for the Turbo VR4 Gallant, and then again for every single EVO generation.

Block, Crank and Rods would be the only parts I can think of that would be interchangable between all the differnt versions, but I doubt a 1st gen set of rods would stand up to the stress in a latest gen EVO 8 engine.

I doubt a 1st gen set of rods would stand up to the stress in a latest gen EVO 8 engine.

That is why I stated that the materials are different. New one is forged, the other is not.

Yes, but they change more than just the materials used, the whole shape of the rod is also changed, along with things like the grudgen pin size etc.

Its quite possible that even the design of the crank has been changed, larger bearings used for example.
Its quite possible that there are no parts that are interchanable between the orginal and latest versions.

4G63T, is mainly installed into a LancerEvolution. An Evolution, is the real meaning to 4G63. This engine is really old and has a good successful history in motorsport, and thanks to Mitsubishi Motor Corporation put a lot of effort and time into this engine.

Basically the bottom part of the engine is the same but some minor improvement being done. This a a special and good engine because of one engine can last for more than 10 years of evolution.

I doubt a 1st gen set of rods would stand up to the stress in a latest gen EVO 8 engine.

You talking about the 89-92 4G63T? Or the original way-back-when rods.........
Pretty sure the stock 89-92 rods can handle 475-500 Hp , they do it pretty frequently that I'm aware of. So the Evo at 271 Hp is no contest. But I do love the forged bottom end in the latest motor. I wonder if the rods and crank etc , could possibly be swapped into an older 7-bolt......... :smokin:

no, in 1990 the 4g63 did not have a ditributor, it is electronic with two coil packs.

I would agree with that too; These older engines are also so much easier to understand/work on/maintain since the electronic control of them is much more basic than newer engines - most new engines are pretty much impossible to work on for the home mechanic for anything other than basic maintenance.


thats the problem with the average home mech. they seem to be (may not be) unable to learn new engines, and new ways to get things to the ground. the home mech. had to learn bout engines and cars to begin with so y can't the home mech. learn something more then what was already done.

Have you looked into the engine bay of a new car recently ? I work for VW in the UK, and believe me when I say that beyond oil & belt changes [as I say, basic stuff] there is not much under there you could fault-find yourself without several thousand pounds worth of dealer-only diagnostic equipment. The problem is not that the engine itself is any more complex than it used to be, but that the control of that basic technology is now done using electronics & control units beyond the fathom of even the most experienced home mechanic !!

You talking about the 89-92 4G63T? Or the original way-back-when rods.........



I was refering to the old 8valve engine that first showed up in the early 80s :)



The problem is not that the engine itself is any more complex than it used to be, but that the control of that basic technology is now done using electronics & control units beyond the fathom of even the most experienced home mechanic !!



The more spophisticated control of an engine dosnt change the basic way an engine works, it simply means there are more things to fail, which more means more things to trouble shoot, some of which require specialist knowledge.
And I have yet to find a modern car that did not have some alternate way of checking for things like engine codes, all that I have seen usualy have a flashing sequence on the check engine light, or an LED on the ECU itself.
But you do have to know how to activate it, and what the codes mean.
All this added complexity simply means more things for a mechanic of any skill level to learn, and it often means a differnt way of appraching a broken down engine, as there are new and differnt ways for it to have failed.

This all takes time to filter down to the home mechanic level, to start with most people who can afford a new car loaded with new technology can afford to get it proffesionaly serviced, but as these cars start to get older and cheeper, people who are more prepared to do the work themselves get hold of them and learn how they work.
I know people who can set injector cycle rates, but don't know how to balance a set of carbs.

Hello all.

I am from DSMtuners.com

I first I want to say I in no way represent the openions of the members at DSMtuners.com

Now that that is out of the way. As you can see in my profile I have a 1990 AWD TSI Eagle Talon. Which use's the 4G63T engine. With a mitsu 14b turbo at 10psi stock. (16psi currently)

Now. In my openion it will be quite some time before a 4cyl engine comes to the market that can out do the 4G63 at even close to the same bang for your buck factor.

And if you think the first 4G63 engines are even close to the ones like in my car, 2G Eclipse/talons or Evo's your crazy. They have come a long way since then. The main reasion Mitsu has not gone crazy with the engine is the reliabilty factor. They want a engine that puts out the power to please the public. But at the same time it has to last a long time.


Now lets look at some aspects of these 3 engines

Engine used in my 90. 6bolt
Engine used in a 2G 7bolt
Engine used in the EVO 7bolt

Cams in my car (not sure of the #'s) but I do know they are more agressive than a 2G

And the Evo has even more agressive cams.

my 6bolt has a better flowing intake manifold and biger turbo, but more mismatched exhaust.

the 2G 7bolt as a crapier intake but better flowing exhaust and more closely matched parts for a better top end.

the Evo of corse has a great intake with the best 16G made IMO.
The Evo use's a FMIC where as the other's use a SMIC.

the Evo has larger injectors and runs more boost.

our cars use 450cc injectors and factory boost is 10psi which can be bumped to 16psi on stock fuel setup.

By now it should be clear Mitsu has been trying deferent things with the 4G63 to try to please the public more while keep it reliable.

This process is time consumeing and slow. The engine has come a long way since it was first produced becouse Mitsu has come to realise the engine can take more boost and build more power than they may have previusly thought and stay reliable with only a few minor mod's to the quality or desighn to the engine.


Look at the SB Chevy 350 for instance. That engine is old as time, But it is slowly geting stronger by the yr. Dispite more and more smog regulations. Why? Becouse it is a proven engine like many other chevy engines. It has a good rep behinde it, like the 4G63 is building. And slowly but surely advanceing as EFI and quality of parts improve.


It would be a huge mistake for Mistu to stop production of the 4G63 engine. But hey If mitsu comes up with something just as tuneable that can link up to our trans's and put out even more power pr/L and more displacement. Then more power to mitsu. BUT as I said it would be a huge mistake to stop produceing it.


Thank you.


*EDIT* oh and the 90's have coil packs ;)

BTW: you guys might find it intresting over at www.dsmtuners.com

There is a wide range of cars and experiance lvl's there. People have everything from the ugly underdog (plymoth Laser) to the Eclipse & Talon. And of corse you couldn't have a DSM forum without the Evo's ;)

Also I just gota say the 3g Eclipse sucks donky balls. Mistu realy had a brain fart on that one if you ask me.

the 4g63 will live forever, an the version from the 1g vr4 was stronger then what came in the evo 1,2 an 3 :)

Also I just gota say the 3g Eclipse sucks donky balls. Mistu realy had a brain fart on that one if you ask me.


100% agreed

IMHO alot of the 80's/early 90's engines were STRONGER because they were overengineered. Motors such as the 4G63, 4AGZ, 3SGTE, 13B, 1JZ, 2JZ, SR20DET, CA18DET, RB20/RB23/RB26DET, VG30DETT, EJ18, B16, etc, were designed for not only everyday sportscar use, but for racing homolgation series. Some of the motors, in fact, first appeared in one off race specials, and were hurridly rushed into homolgation. The fact that race cars had to sport basically stock motors, and few modifications were allowed, prompted maufacturers to design some very SICK motors. Besides, the 80s~early 90s was a period of technological innovation and revolution in the automotive world, in which turbocharging, multivalve, multicam, and variable timing motors moved from formula one and group B world rally to the streets and garages of the average Joe/Jane. This is the reason these motors are known to produce sick amounts of power. This was not only the case in Japan, either. Look at the Dodge M4 concept car that paced the PPG indy series (the "turbo inteceptor" from the movie WRAITH) That car used a 2.2 litre chrysler turbo motor, with a cosworth head up top, to make 450 hp from 25psi of boost via two T25 turbochargers. It ran 12s, and topped out at 200mph. BACK IN 1984. The escort mexico, by ford, was making up to 200 all motor HP, from its NA cosworth motor, in 1980. Of course, Mazda's rotaries, and toyota's twin cams knew a little something abut all motor power back then, too... The early 80s also brought us perhaps the STRONGEST Audi of all time, the inline 5 quattto UR, which made up to 700 to the ground in rally trim, and the 500 to the ground hp Ford Sierra Cosworth. Both of these monsters had their blocks homolgated by using them in production cars, and their specific modifications homolgated by selling a limited number of street specials. This is why the 4G63, which the individual who started this thread claims is antiquated, is still a formidable force; it is a rally car/road race motor. Moreover, most of the motors from that era were VERY modular. They were designed with such vison as to allow interchangability with their offspring and related motors for decades after their introduction. This is why 1980s import/sport compact motors continue to be relevant, because, often, they are better than the ones which "replaced" them.
-PSI
for the record, I own an "outdated" 4G63 series B turbo.

^^^ Oncore!

If its not broken, don't fix it!

it is good to see educated discussion on a matter like this. most boards would resort to unfounded trach talk which normally results from boost envy. :screwy: :loser:


j/k


The 4g63 is an awesome motor. We have customers that have made well over 400whp on stock blocks, both 6 and 7 bolt blocks. One in particular was running 470hp (crank) and had 170k on the stock 7 bolt block. The 4g63 is amazing and while other companies have made good engines, the only other motor in the same class with the 4g63 in my mind is the 3SGTE. The SR20 is cool and call but pushrod technology, come on now. but yes it is also a good motor.

You dont mess with perfection simple as that

I'd just like to see Mitsu really get serious with the 4G63. this less than 300 HP in the year 2005 is foolish. Hell I ran 350 HP with my 1992 DSM with the little 14b turbo back in 1997 fer cripes sakes.

The motor could easily be made to put out a conservative 370 HP on 93 pump gas.

Don't get rid of the 4G63, make some serious HP with it AND a drivetrain that can handle it!

I'd just like to see Mitsu really get serious with the 4G63. this less than 300 HP in the year 2005 is foolish. Hell I ran 350 HP with my 1992 DSM with the little 14b turbo back in 1997 fer cripes sakes.

The motor could easily be made to put out a conservative 370 HP on 93 pump gas.

Don't get rid of the 4G63, make some serious HP with it AND a drivetrain that can handle it!

Amen!

I'm glad to see people posting who actuall know what they're talking about. I've always been a chevy or nothing praise V8's kind of guy. Then I got a DSM about a year and a half ago. I couldn't believe how far ahead in technology these motors were compared to V8's and such for the same year car. The once stock 4g63 that resided in it's engine bay is now sporting a 20thou. overbored block, wiseco forged pistons coated by HPC (ceramic dome, poly/xylon skirts), eagle "H" beam rods, SI stainless undercut swirl polished valves, and some port and bowl clean up I did to the head... The list goes on and on. By mid next year I expect to be in the 350-375 a whp range on crappy california 91oct pump gas for a mild street tune. I'm into the car right about $3000 (that includes the price of the car~1990 TSI AWD). 4g63 definately get's my "bang for the buck" vote! Of course that's my opinion...

Peace,
Dustin

I hav a 1980 EX Lancer

RWD 4g63, has twin dellortos,ported and polished, extractors, crow cam, 10lbs flywheel, cosworth clutch, jap 5sp box, all in a 800kg car.
Old skool but beats the pants off any civics or v8.

Nothing wrong with the old moters if you put alittle effort into learning how they work.

The 4g63t first came out in 1979 in the EX2000 turbo.Was rwd, 8 valve, ran about 10psi, and was 170hp standard.

Awsome moter !!

Wow, this is an old post. The 4G63 is NICE. And in Erupean countrys, some the Evo VIII FQ340 has around 340 HP stock. Too bad its not likw that here in the US.

yeah, well nz is like a little japan when it comes to all our imports.

No offence, but american cars are pretty crap when it comes to preformance and handling.

To get a car that will compete with a high preformance jappa you would be paying 5 times what you would for the jappa.

I lov my little old lancer and it sure beats any fords etc that i come up against.
Even really knew ones.

I hate American made cars, exept for a very few. I mostly like Eropean cars, and Japanese cars.

To be quite honest, the only difference between the new 4G63 (Evo IV and on) and the original 4G63 (EVO I-III, and the DSM's) is the materials used and the hollowed out titanium cams. Everything else is primarily the same.
Wow you're an idiot if you believe that. There is nothing the same about the engines. Did you notice that they are backwards from eachother?? No parts interchange and the EVO VIII engine has a long list of changes from the 4G63 used in the DSM's. Now the DSM bottom ends can handle 550hp untouched, most new engines can't even think about that much hp. Technology wise the 4G63 is outdated because of ECU technology and VVT, etc... But it is far from not being a capable competitive motor in today's automotive world.