4wd Integra? Likely possible.

I was just thinking since the B20 block on a CRV would basically bolt right in an Integra DC2 chassis, why couldn't you just transfer everything including the transmission, transfer case, driveshafts, and rear end along with it and convert your fwd to a 4wd? I know someone out there has thought of this before because I've even dreamt about it. I have a friend that has a mig welder so we could do our own fabrication. What do you guys think?

Honda has already made B18b powered versions of of the 4th and 5th gen Integra coupes and Sedans in Japan.
The sedans are not that rare, but not that special either, the extra weight combined with the non-VTEC B18b makes them a little sluggish.
I have however seen one B18c powered AWD Coupe. Rare car, and I should imagine quite quick.


Doing the swap to a FWD Integra would be a major operation.
You would need to cut out most the floor plan, and either replace it with the floor from a CRV, or HRV in order to get a Transmission tunnel, and mounts for the rear diff.

Honda Tuning magaizine wrote an article about that very idea in the June 2003 issue. They are trying to make a Type-R AWD. They were just plannin in that issue. Apparently, Honda did make a AWD Integra once, but it never made it to US shores. It was only in markets outside the US, and only for a very short time. Honda discontinued it after a little over a year in production. It was called the Integra ZXI. It was AWD, but underpowered, with only a 127hp D-series motor and a "slushbox" transmission. The article explains how they plan to do it, you are on the right track. They said, and I quote "We'll be using an assortment of Honda and aftermarket parts, and factory parts taken from a CR-V. The CR-V uses a B-series motor and transmisson that will directly bolt into the integra chassis." The article goes on to say that they may use an Integra ZXI rear differentail mounting on the car, or they may need to combine CR-V parts with Integra ZXI parts to make their "Beast Run." The article said ProMotion Motorsports of Florida has taken up the task of this doing this project with them. Maybe they can help you more. I am sorry I have no phone number or web addy, as the article gave none.

thanks alot eckoman for the 411. but I'm pretty sure, ProMotion won't be too willing to give out tips on their lastest project since it's gonna be the first one that i've seen. looks like it's gonna be a race between mine's and their's. :icesangel

yes, we have a very unpopular 4wd teg here in japan. ZC engine, 4 door. my pipe dream was to drop in a reinforced spoon h22 from a type S 'lude (does spoon do anything with em?), up the gear ratios and drop in a turbo. dammmmmmmnnnnnn. i could run with STi's and LanEvos. anyway, the japanese refer to AWD's as 4WD's too, and these types of tegs are VERY rare (i've only seen 1 in my 8 years living in Okinawa). must have been cuz the wimpy engines. i'm pulling up the honda-japan site now for more info...let's see...first sold as the ZXi4WD trim in july '93 under the E-DB9 body style (4 round headlights/4 door. the popular GS-R in the states is the DC2, hence my name...;)), 5 spd manual, ZC engine--i.e. 1.6l SOHC, 120ps@6300 and 14.5kgm@3000. for reference, the B18C engine in the SiR (or GS-R in the states) is 180ps@7600 and 17.8kgm@6200. '96 Type R was 200ps@8000 and 19kgm@6200. in other words, the ZC sucked, which made the ZXi4WD suck. no one wants this bastard child, so they cut its life short. for reference, i just found 15 '96/'98 type R's for sale throughout all of japan and just 1 ZXi4WD. this car has potential (albeit with the mods i mentioned above), but why take a chance when you can buy something already made to whomp ass? that's why i'm selling my 93 DC2 with around 200ps (that's roughly 200hp) and buying a '03 WRX STi that comes 300hp in stock trim.

why waste the time and money?

I think it'll cost a bunch of money, so not worth it. And it'll probably make the car a shit load heavier with all that extra weight. It would be pretty sweet though, if you got it to work.

If you got the money, do it. Never let people say you cant do something. I just say :thefinger And if any one still thinks its not possible mail a letter and write the idea down and send it to jesse james at Monster Garage and they probably wanna do and succeed so never lose hope:iceslolan

That's a great idea about the monster garage thing TurboVroom, but I think Jesse and his crew is just a little bit bias towards the import crowd. They look like and I'm pretty sure are domestic beast lovers. But just to let you guys know, I've found a B20 block and am currently building it with JE pistons and type R head. That way I have the monster torque (probably only 160ft./lbs.) for the 4wd while still getting high flow for top end. So I'm about 1/4 of the way there to getting my dream machine. Probably be ready in about 6-8months. Why so long???? Because my funds come every 2 weeks in the form of a paycheck.

Dude, thats cool you are actually trying to do it. Most people never get creative beyond what theyhave seen done. Keep me posted on how it comes. Also, I know you thanked me for my info when I origanally gave it, but did it actually come in handy now that you have started? Good Luck on it, it'll be neat once you pul it off.

I learned a lesson from being involved with cars for a while..........
if someone else hasn't done it, there is a reason. If it was a good idea, someone would have done it by now.

hey jdm only guy, what tranny model u using?

Originally posted by sweetcarz.com
I learned a lesson from being involved with cars for a while..........
if someone else hasn't done it, there is a reason. If it was a good idea, someone would have done it by now.

If such was true, there would never have been any inovation in any part of the automotive industry. No Vtec, no Turbo, no inovation in any part what so ever. As I told him above, Honda Tuning Magazine is involved with ProMotion Motorsports of Florida in trying to do the exact same thing he is trying. Also, try fitting an AT LS into a civic, the tranny is too big to fit in the engine, it hits the frame rail, plus re-wiring the civic to work with the Electroniucally Controlled AT is a b*tch. Now, some migh t say, put in a sitck, well, a AT LS was wanted, A AT B-sereis. Several Places said "It couldn't be done, an LS Automotic into a 5th gen civic? Nope." Well, It happened, and it worked out quite well. So a stick would of been more fun, but the reason the reason everyone turned down doing that swap wasn't what you stated above, though that was there idea. Now do I have the know how to do what he wanted? No, but somewhere along the line, it HAS to be possible with money and know-how. Maybe he'll do it, maybe not. But the pro's build RWD drag-civic's, and they try because it benifits them. But AWD wouldn't. Maybe it's lack of the big "benifit" that has stymed this from being done before. But if him, or Honda Tuning with ProMotion Motorsports of Florida, wants to try to pull this off, I say more power to them. Nothing ever got done to a car by saying if someone else hasn't done it, there is a reason. If it was a good idea, someone would have done it by now." So maybe it's a good Idea, maybe it a bad one. I myself wouldn't try it, but that doesn't mean it's not possible with lots of dedication. Maybe Honda Tuning Pulls it off, maybe not, but that counts as someone (else) currently trying it. As far as I can tell, the first too. Somewhere along the line, everything had a first. I can imagine in 94 telling people you are going to Lower your Civic Hatch 2 inchs or so, maybe 2/1/2, put on 18 inch wheels, stick in a new Integra GSR tranny, engine and ECU, and Turbo it up. Someone would have probably laughed at you, said "18's on a Civic, lower it? Put in an Integra engine, tranny, and ecu and boost it? Not gonna happen. If it was a good Idea, honda would of tried it." Well, almost a decade later, it happens to be quiet commen, with an industry based around this idea, weather it be Honda's or another car. I guess my point is, every current idea we take forgranted, like RWD Drag Civic's, Engine swaps, etc, had a time when it was never done and someone tried it first. Besides this guy, Honda Tuning with ProMotion Motorsports of Florida is trying it, maybe it works, maybe it doesnt. We'll never know for sure until they give it a try for the first time and figure out the problems, how to make it happen etc. I am well aware it's not the easiest undertaking, but if this guy doesn't make it happen, Honda Tuning (Primedia) would have the Pockets to pull it off it's possible to make it functional and work.

93DC2 , it was your comment about dropping in a nice H22 into the ZXi4WD Integra that was Honda Tuning's motovation to give it a try. They are trying to do it to a type-r, however. They are going about it how I descirbed in my 1st post. I suppose to would be easier for them to try it by getting the ZXi4WD and putting in a type-r if thats what they wanted. But I guess, first off, like you said, hard to come by, and second, I bet they would say "that would take the fun out of trying." It'll be a shame if they ditch the project without completing it. A screwed up Type-R, and they won't have much to show. I think you should try your idea. Hell, I'd give it a go, but there's no way I am getting a ZXi4WD to drop a new motor into here in ther states.

No thanks eckoman. i'll stick with my plans for a new STi. i'm tired of being the guy with the little car that could (i just ate a 180sx for breakfast). i wanna be the guy with the little car that WILL.
93 DC2 Integra:
1.8l VTEC
Spoon Camgears
Ultra 8mm plug wires
HKS Iridium plugs
Tanabe 4-2-1 header
J's Racing straight pipe
RS*R Exmag GT2 exhaust
HKT cold thermostat
Civic SiR tranny for closer ratio
APC short shifter
Mugen shift knob
Razo carbon fiber pedals
wimpy stereo
Hiro front bumper
currently have stock Type R side skirts
Mugen side skirts (when i finish painting them...)
Garcia rear bumper
bad azz alum. GT wing from some brand that I forgot
heavy 17 in. Schneider Deos rims for show
light 15 in. Sparco rims for when i'm feelin' frisky
cuztom blue painted taillights and a silly little skull with LEDs for eyes that i've spliced into my taillights.
clear side and corner lenses and all that little dress-up BS.
AND NO STUPID BLING BLING HEAVY AZZ CHROME CRAP. chrome is show/no go.

all bolt on stuff. props to the guy up there fabbing his own parts for his 4WD Teg. you get my respect whether or not it works. and props to the us guys who install our own parts. don't give me none of that BS about "some people have the knack, some don't." i used to not even know how to change a tire. all it takes is to ditch the fear of getting dirty. you get so much more satisfaction of doing it yourself. good luck 4WD guy.

Hey guys, I happen to know the person that owns ProMotion Motorsports and that is working on this.
He won Pikes Peak with his Type R and wanted something innovative and new that would also help him with Pikes Peak.
He has been working on it for a while now and should be done this week. I am trying to meet up with him this weekend to see if it is complete.


Peace
Jim
Respected Performance

Hey guys, I happen to know the person that owns ProMotion Motorsports and that is working on this.
He won Pikes Peak with his Type R and wanted something innovative and new that would also help him with Pikes Peak.
He has been working on it for a while now and should be done this week. I am trying to meet up with him this weekend to see if it is complete.


Peace
Jim
Respected Performance

That's cool you actually know the guy from promotion we were talking about. So how did it turn out? I take it his idea for a 4wd teg worked out?

Yeah, he is a pretty nice guy. Its not done yet, but they haven't hit any copmpletely dead ends. I am sure you will hear alot about it when it is done, but I will try and see it this weekend or next weekend.

jdmhondaonly... i have been interested in doing this "swap" also. I have posted alot of my ideas and options on some other boards, so ill copy and paste them here in hopes that we can figure out how to make this work. I know its long but here goes....

Ok, heres the deal. I want to make one of the first, if not the first AWD civic. As of right now im just trying to plan it out and figure out wheat I will need. I know a guy that can get me a crv rollover so I plan to start with that. Im not to sure of what year I should look for though. I was thinking a 98 since its compression is 8.8 and I do plan on boosting later. In 99 the compression switched over to 9.6 (still good for boost, but debatable).
Right now I have a 95 civic ex which im planning to use as the body. (Going to get all the dings out and a decent paint job).
Now, things to worry about. The civic fuel tank is right in the way of the drive shaft for the rear wheels. So that tank is out of the question. I’m not sure where/how the tank is place in the crv so I figure I will either have to modify that, or use something like a 12 gal. fuel cell in the trunk.
Transmission. The gear ratios of the crv pretty much fall right between and LS and a GSR, excluding the first gear which is 3.5 in the crv, 3.23 in the ls and 3.307 in the gsr. The final drive is def. a little high (4.562 in the crv compared to 4.266 of the ls) and im not really sure how that will translate into power to the ground.
As for axels, im guessing the crv’s will work. Since theres a transfer case on the end of the tranny, the axels have to be a shorter/longer.
Shift linkage. Not sure weather the crv shift linkage will line up with the body of the civic, or maybe I will need the SI shift linkage?
I plan on using the crv brakes and hubs (everyone will think I got a 5 lug conversion )
Theoretically I just want to take the body off the crv frame, and replace it with a civic body, but I know its not that simple.
This is all just what im thinking right now, and obviously still need to look into it a little further, but I wanted to get some opinions/suggestions before I went any further. Any comments or thoughts would be a great help. Sorry for the long read. Thanks again.
josh




Here is what i know about how much power actually reaches the rear wheels. quoted from cars.com (Tom Strongman)

"The Real Time 4WD is a clever solution to providing the traction of all-wheel drive. If the front wheels slip or spin, hydraulic pumps connected to each axle determine that power needs to be sent to the rear wheels, and a clutch is engaged to do so. The more the front wheels slip, the more power goes to the back. Simple and elegant, always in action, this system does not rely on electronics or the driver. Honda says the only maintenance is a fluid change at 90,000 miles."

I figure this is exactly what you would want for the launch. AWD till u hook up, then just the 2WD drivetrain loss.
Has anyone here had much experience with a CRV??
josh




i found a more technical description. tell me what u think.

"Honda calls its transmission "Real Time 4WD," a system that sends power to the rear wheels only when there is insufficient traction for the front wheels.

The heart of the system is a dual hydraulic pump unit. One pump is driven by the front wheels via an offset propeller shaft. The other is driven by the rear wheels via the rear differential.

In operation, when the front and back wheels turn at the same speed, as on dry pavement, there is no hydraulic fluid pressure differences generated between the two pumps. If the front wheels begin to slip, the front pump begins to generate more pressure than the rear.

The resulting hydraulic pressure opens a valve that feeds pressure to a multi-disc clutch. The clutch hooks up the propeller shaft to the rear differential and the differential feeds the power to the rear wheels.

The greater the amount of front wheel slippage, the greater the amount of driving torque fed to the rear wheels.

Another advantage of the dual pump system is that unlike conventional systems, Real Time automatically disengages under braking, thereby allowing an optional ABS (anti-lock braking) system to be engaged." (George Moore. cars.com)

josh



I dont know how much this will help, but i would love to discuss this with you further weather it be email ([email protected]) AIM (cazper5743) or whatever. So take this info for what it is and im loking forward to talking with you, so at least someone can get this AWD civic done. later
josh

The AWD Integra is done!!! I haven't seen it or driven in it yet, but will try to very soon. I'll let you know how it feels.

Jim

is it an all time awd like the gsx and the subarus or is it the real time awd drive like the crv?

That's a really good question. I'll have to find out. I'll let you know.

The AWD Integra is done!!! I haven't seen it or driven in it yet, but will try to very soon. I'll let you know how it feels.

Jim


Thats tight, it's done? They hammred it out quicker than I thought they would. Let me knoe ALL about it, lol. Thats hella tight you know the guy. I wish I knew the guy, lol. I'd love to see it and talk to him about it. I bet it cost a load. Was probably hard to do also, lots of work and faberication I would guess.

I've been reading this thread, and it's very interesting, as I can't make up my mind whether to get an Integra or a 240sx, but if this 4wd setup is possible Integra all the way! Any more news on it?

hey i was just in the store and on the front cover of one of this month mags they where talking about a awd integra and i think they said they used a crv

Yeah. They used parts from many different Hondas and alot of fabrication, but it is Real Time AWD like the CRV and not full-time AWD, but it is still an AWD Integra!

Yeah. They used parts from many different Hondas and alot of fabrication, but it is Real Time AWD like the CRV and not full-time AWD, but it is still an AWD Integra!



i know this is a dumb question but what is the diff. is real time awd when the wheels start to spin they move power to the rear wheels?? and full i know is all the time just not sure about the "real time"

hey i was just in the store and on the front cover of one of this month mags they where talking about a awd integra and i think they said they used a crv

Yeah, that mag is Honda Tuning. That would be installment 2 of their converage (first was in apirl or may). Promottion Motorsports in florida is doing the conversion that article is slowly flowing, and Respected knows the guy who owns it. Promotion and a few others are trying to pull it off. They origanally were going to try it on a type-r, but they got their hands on a wrecked integra that wasn't a type-r and are doing it to that one. The reasoning was if the screwed up and it didn't work, they wouldn't have ruined a prefaxtly good type-r. Well, as the article shows, it's coming along, and Respected says they are actually done with it, which makes me guess Honda Tuning is probably just covering it in installments and hasn't reached the last one, even though it's done. Either way, with enough time and money, anything is possible. So yea, that article is the actual attemped conversion we have been discussing in here for ages.

Also, in reference to real-time. I do beilive that real time is like the skyline and audi have. The 2 main drive wheels have most of the power and when the wheels slip, power is transfered to the other 2 wheels. So a skyline is mostly RWD, like 95% rear 5% front under ideal conditions. But when the rear wheels slip, the proper amount of power is transfered to the front wheels from the rear (so all 4 wheels can keep traction). Under this condtion, the power distribution is no longer 95-5, but is something else (exactly what depends on how much power was transfered to the front). In the Audi, for example, most of the power is in the front wheels, unlike the skyline, so when the front wheels slip, it transfers the approperate amount of power to the rear to keep traction at all 4 wheels. This is how the attempted real-time AWD Integra would function.

Perfect explanation of Real Time AWD, eckoman.

I need to try and get some good pics if it is somethign he won't mind showing.

Perfect explanation of Real Time AWD, eckoman.

I need to try and get some good pics if it is somethign he won't mind showing.

Yea, that would be tight if you could get some good pics of it to put on here. Hopefully he wont mind. It certainly beats waiting for honda tuning to slowly cover it, lol.