New Panoz - HDPE Prep Wanted

I picked up GTRA023 (Penske / Marboro car) last fall and am getting ready for an HDPE at Putnam Park. Looked through a lot of the threads here and found some great info. Here's a couple questions:

1) Brake Pads - Lots of threads on the PF and a few on Carbotech. There's lots of options out there, including some that you might use in a pinch (from the local autoparts guys). What do you use, why, and where do you buy?

2) Spare Parts / Wear items - Other than brakes and tires, what other parts would you suggest having on hand? Anything specific that the Panoz is prone to wear out?

Also interested in the history of this car if anyone knows. I heard it was a used car that was upgraded to Penske specs. as a spare. Car #14.

Thanks!

Larry
Milwaukee, Wi.

Hey Larry, and welcome!!

The cars are pretty resilient, major wear items are
Tires
Brakes last FOREVER IMO. I used the same set of pads for 1.5 years of doing 8-10 events a year!
Front Spindles should be replaced every 1-2 years, or at the very least magnafluxed and checked!
Axle seals, both Inner and outer, they are known to leak after a short period of time.
clutch cables, they tend to break after awhile and its good to have a spare or two
Other than that, they are pretty bullet proof.

BTW, I do a lot of decals/graphics/numbers for the Panoz crowd, if you need anything, let me know!

Eric,

Thanks for the insights! Definitely would not be fun to loose a front spindle... Are there upgrades available that solve the issue?

If you have any preferred sources / recommendations for the parts listed, that would be great. I've seen some references to Panoz Automotive and Wire Wheel... Current contact info / references would be appreciated. Thanks again for taking time to reply / share your experience!

Larry

Hi Larry, we still have some Panoz parts, just let us know what you might need and we will check. We have sold over 50 of the various models of Panoz race cars and have accumulated stuff along the way.. including a lot of the inventory from Penske.

Best wishes,
James Redman
www.wirewheel.com
772-299-9788

Larry,
I have compiled a Tribal Wisdom document for these cars taken mostly from the thousands of posts on this site. It contains some part numbers and sources as well as a wealth of information about how to maintain, repair and improve these cars. If you would like a copy in Word format, send me an email: mduke8 at gmail.com. I provide this as a free service since I made this for my own use. I make no claims of the accuracy of the information except that I try to include info that seems to me to be valid. I'm no expert.

I also have a registry of sorts which I can include to help you ID the ownership history of the various members of this site. I make both of these available to any Panoz enthusiast who requests them. No personal info is included (such as addresses or phone numbers). The only emails and names included are those posted on this forum.

Mike

James and Mike,

Thanks for the replies!

Mike- Looking forward to reviewing all the tribal knowledge. With a car this rare, that will really help a lot.

James - If you have an email to share / pm, that would be great. I don't get much time during the day to post or call...

I currently have the PI System2 and was wondering if anyone had experience with data logging, the lap timing / beacon transmitter function, the steering position sensor, and the software. How about putting this all together with a camera? Looks like it would take a little work to do, but might be significantly less than a new system from Aim...

Would be nice to have some data to show improvements (me and the car). Never did that in the past, but now that I have a dedicated track car, it seems like a neat idea... Thoughts?

Larry

Hi Larry, wirewheel at gmail dot com

772-299-9788

PI is now owned by Cosworth..


Good luck,

Well... The first outing in the Panoz was a bit disappointing... Unloaded the car and found out that the brake lights didn't function. Tracked it down to a bad switch. Luckily the local NAPA guys helped me with an alternative that worked... Will be adding a spare to inventory...

Got a few laps in on my first session when the PI dash started flashing a low voltage alarm. Pulled into the pit lane and it went away. Went back out again. Same issue... Pulled in and started to smell raw fuel. Seems that the alternator and the main fuel supply line had an altercation. The fuel line lost and was spewing raw fuel... No repair /replacement available locally, so it ended the weekend with 3 or 4 laps... At least I didn't have a thermal event...

Come to find out that the alternator is not identical to the one on the spare motor. The one on the car looks new and like it came from a '95 Mustang (according to pics from Autozone). The spare looks like it is from a '92 E150 van (again according to pics at Autozone). I'll be installing the latter... Anyone else experience this?

Will be taking the fuel line off the spare motor to see if it will work. Anyone have another (from a 5.0 fuel injected GTRA) or know a good fuel line supply house (both parts had a Goodridge tag) just in case?

Also disappointed with the brake performance. Significantly different (worse) feel and performance from other cars I've driven hard (Gen 4 Z28 w/C5 Corvette brakes, 928GT, and 996 C2)...

Venting complete...

Can't help on the fuel line. Mine are both at the rear of the intake (supply and return). The alternator on mine if from a '97 Explorer (5.0) which was the source of the motor when Ford supplied it to Panoz. No help there for you either. As long as the alternator fits the mount, wiring and serpentine system, I don't think it matters much.

Most folks find the brakes very good. Your rotors or pads might be glazed. The PF pads used by the schools were the 97 compound that are considered very long lasting, easy on the rotors and very predictable, but do not generate ultimate grip, especially until they get heat in them. They are generally considered an enduro pad. Some have switched to the 01 compound for a little shorter life, but quicker heat build up and greater clamping force. If your brakes are really poor, my bet there is an issue with the bedding of the pads to the rotors. I believe the fix is to have them deglazed and re-bed them if they have good life left. Not sure if it would require the rotors to be surfaced as well.

I've not had an issue with glazing or the like. I haven't driven truely high performance street cars with brake boosters on track like those you mention, but I've found the Panoz brakes (with the 97 compound) excellent after a lap or two. It is a hard pedal and takes a little getting used to in order to get the hang of modulating the braking. I'm not very fast or brave, so I may be no judge. Hope some others will jump in to give you better advice.

Mike

Thanks for the post Mike! As far as I can tell, the pads are new and the 97 compound. It's possible they were not bedded correctly. Most likely, I'm not getting enough heat into them to make them really work... Maybe the 01 compound would be a better fit for me. I went three years on the C5 stock (street) pads before I changed them out (couple of track events per year and 3k to 4k street miles per year).

With the other alternator, the fuel supply line still runs along the back face (resting against the plastic module housing). Anyone else run consistently with this situation? Just want to make sure that's the proper routing won't cause more issues.

Thanks!

Larry

Got a full day in at Blackhawk last week and the brakes were better once I got some heat into them. Checked things out afterwards and found two significant cracks from the rotor id on the left rear (can feel with fingernail). Put on a used spare rotor last night. Noticed a couple of odd things in the process:

1) The disk I took off seemed loose. I did play around with the "bobbins" and they would turn to full diameter in the slots (extra 0.020 of clearance). The replacement rotor required the bobbins to be placed with the flat against the load bearing edge and seemed tighter than the one I took off. Diameter is .375 and .355 with flat. Is this "normal" / what should a good rotor feel like?

2) There was no sign of grease in the bearings, just plenty of diff. oil. Is this normal or should the rear bearings be greased like the front? A local shop recommended grease and installing seals in the tubes (from the center) to keep diff. oil from creeping in / diluting the grease. Just checking as none of the docs I have are clear on rear wheel bearing lubrication...

3) Is there supposed to be something holding the axle to the outer cap so that it doesn't rub against the diff housing?

Thanks again for your patience with a nubie!

Call and speak with Brandon @ Panoz (888) 467-2660. He is always more than willing to give technical assistance (especially if you by purchase replacement parts) and can get you the correct seals and reassembly advice you need. He can and will answer all three of your questions. You can buy anything you need from Coleman directly, but Brandon will get you the correct part the first time. I purchase everything from Panoz including brake pads and rotos. I know I can find stuff cheaper on the net but it makes more sense to me to support the company that continues to be there for us when we need them.

I agree with CMPanoz!!!!

Congrats on the Panoz purchase. Once you get it sorted you'll love the car, it's performance and reliability. It does take some maintenance to get to that point, at least it did with my GT-RA school car.
1) I've got a functional FI system that I pulled off of my 5.0 motor. I went old school with a carb after problems with the computer. Now the system is much more reliable. I've got a larger and ported intake manifold from Performance Products, larger injectors (31 lb), 90 mm throttle body, and functional stock fuel rails. All parts added measurable HP. PM me if you're interested in any or all of these parts and we can figure out what you need/want and figure a price.
2) Brakes are your primary safety system. Call Performance Friction and buy some new bobbins and replace the old ones. It may take them a while for PF to ship the order as they are hard to come by, just be patient. And they are not cheap.
I also had the same initial complaint about the brakes. THey weren't as good as my Vette brakes. I went with the '01 pads to get a higher coef of friction and more stopping power. It made the brakes feel much better than my C5 Z06. The '01's are race pads and you do have to put some heat in them before they start to work well. A lap or two of dragging the brakes is needed to get them up to operational temps.
3) My rear diff has the same condition that you're experiencing. It's best to get the seals replaced so that you can get your bearings properly greased, but I've been running for a season with 90 weight oil as my bearing lube, and the bearings are holding up fine. I check them regularly just to be sure I don't have any wear issues. Not the best, but the axle seals are nortorious for leaking.
4) If I understand your axle question, there is no clip or restraint that stops the axle itself from sliding in and out on the splines in the hub. It can move toward the outer cap. I've not seen any undue wear on my caps.

Good luck.

Thanks for the posts! Good to hear that running on gear oil is not the end of the world. My local shop showed me a three row seal with aluminum housing that looks pretty stout. I think they're about $50 each... They also gave a quote on the bobbins from PFC. $55 a set (8 nuts, bolts, washers, and spacers) seems a little steep for as simple as the parts are... I'll give Brandon a call as I'm getting several quotes on spare parts (also emailed wirewheel). I'm also hearing that PFC 97's are no longer available for the front (plenty of rears though)...

With regards to the axle movement, I'm concerned about the side that is opposite of the plate. Seems the radius on the inboard side can rub against the housing and create metal shavings. Also seems like this could be prevented by making sure the axel stays in contact with the plate. Would have to be thought out (don't want to cause other issues).

Off to Gingerman this weekend... Will keep you posted!

Larry

I just tried paged yellow for the first time at autobahn country club full 4 mile track. I experienced more consistent stopping power (brake pedal force) and shorter stopping distance than the PFC 97. The PFC pads have lasted over 20 track days, i will see how the pagid's do and how the rotors wear.

Thanks for the feedback on the pagid yellow pads. If you have p/n's, prices, etc. to share, that would be appreciated.

Spoke with Bandon at Panoz Auto. Confirmed that the rear hubs should have grease. He was very helpful and took a little time to give me some additional background on the GTRA. Sounds like my car is from the Sebring group. Also learned that I need to search out the details on the rear suspension mount upgrades to see if Penske took care of that when they went through the car. Any links w/ pics would be appreciated.

Gingerman was a success. Weather was perfect and the Panoz performed flawlessly. I watched my temps on the rear hubs and they were fine (and reasonably consistent side to side). Also looked at rotor temps. There was some variation side to side (20 deg F). Not sure if that's cooling related or possibly a little more drag in one caliper (rebuild or new hardware???)

I need to find a better way to get fuel in... The big funnel isn't big enough to compensate for the spoiler being in the way...

Larry

Pagid part number 1408 rear and 1287 front. Price i paid was $322 for the rear and $340 for the front.

Thanks for the details! Will keep pagid yellow in mind as the search for brake spares continues (thankfully the 97's are still holding up well).

Also heard that the GTS cars had Brembo rotors. Sounds like the hub is the same, just the rings and rotors are different. Panoz Auto did not have the Brembo rings in stock... Rotor prices seem comparable.

Created a brake bleeding system. Using a high end tire valve stem in the top of a spare reservoir cap (wilwood) and a bicycle pump. Two pumps and you have 15psi in the reservoir. Can then bleed the system without the two helpers that the instructions call for... I think the cap will also fit my 996.

Larry

sounds like you are near to us in the midwest. We run a group called 3Balls Racing. We mainly run Gingerman, Grattan, Waterford Hills and Mid-Ohio. I have the #2 Panoz and it has taken a few seasons to sort it out but now the car is awesome.

We have several more events this year. Go to www.3ballsracing.com and you can see our remaining schedule and hopefully join us.

Kenny

Thanks for the invite! I'm just west of Milwaukee, Wi. Generally run with the PCA and BMW clubs and have seen your group on a couple of the track DE lists. Would be good to meet up on or off track. Still working out the fall schedule / will let you know. Feel free to ping me if you're going to Blackhawk or Road America.

Larry

Larry,

Glad to hear Brandon helped you out. He has a wealth of knowledge about our cars.

As for fueling, we simply made a funnel for our cars. 8x4 pvc dwv bell reducer, 4x2 bell reducer, 2 2" 90 for about a 24" off set. We used 1" for the drop so it slides in the fuel cell opening easily. It takes fuel as fast as you can pour it in. I would post a picture but I'm not smart enough to do so. I can e mail you one.

Chris

Chris - Thanks for the funnel description! I'll definitely make one up this weekend.


Anyone have the software for the PI System2 available?

Just received notice: PCA Milwaukee Region is allowing late registration for DE at Road America for experienced drivers and instructors this Friday 8/10. Cost is $280. www.porschepark.org (http://www.porschepark.org)

Larry