Monaco weekend under way!

The Monaco GP is back and just like every year, the sight of the cars flying around the streets of the Principality takes my breath away! There’s simply nothing like it :cool:

Quali 1 was pretty entertaining, drive of the session goes to Jenson Button without a doubt – did you see how hard he was pushing, centimetres off the barriers! – Schumi set the fastest time without seemingly pushing too hard, the Ferrari’s change of direction is really quite incredible, there was one shot of Rubens coming out of “the swimming pool” and the F2003’s nose just stuck to the ground despite the extreme change of direction… that car is very well sorted.. Kimi was worryingly off the pace, the Williams were (again) understeering like a bunch of dogs (when are they gonna sort that car out?) yet Ralf only narrowly off DC’s time… it’s not looking too good for those two teams. As for the Renaults, I thought they’d be strong, Jarno proved me right with a good lap but Alonso’s mistakes were disappointing. And as for the Toyotas, they should just go home… I would have been faster around the track by foot than these clowns… theyre really paying for sacking salo and mcnish, and I for one am glad… theyre in their second season and what they needed was consistency in their line-up… serves them right…

Anyway, bring on Q2!

I can appreciate the skills and guts it takes to race this circuit, but as a race it's pretty much a forced procession and it bores me. :)

not me, i cant get enough of monaco :flash:

there may not be too much overtaking but theres plenty of crashing :D

Originally posted by crayzayjay
not me, i cant get enough of monaco :flash:

there may not be too much overtaking but theres plenty of crashing :D

I don't watch races to see crashes or wheels broken off on guardrails.

Originally posted by Veyron


I don't watch races to see crashes or wheels broken off on guardrails.

me neither

Button had a huge crash in free practice today. A-la Karl Wendlinger in 94, same place. during quali yesterday I was looking at taht barrier at the exit and thinking that if a car goes straiht on with no brakes, it will be head on and with a great force. And here we go. Button is reported to be ok, although he's in hospital for checks and there's a big chance we won't see him again on track this weekend.

Ralf on pole? Who would have thunk it.:confused: He and Montoya will probably hit something and the race will be between MS, KR and DC. :)

Nice procession. Good win for Montoya. Annoyed with Kimi for not trying to pass JPM for the lead, but I guess with the new points system he values the points more than a win at Monaco. Not a bad race for MS, but I was so hoping he'd be on a 1-stopper. Also why does Renault have such a good launch control. Whoever was behind Trulli into the first corner would be dropping away from whoever is ahead of Trulli, that's exactly what happened. Still the race pretty much sucked, and I blame the "formula" for the cars.

But still, here's a list of the beautiful overtaking maneuvres we've witnessed today:

Originally posted by Veyron


I don't watch races to see crashes or wheels broken off on guardrails.

look at it this way it makes for zero-margin racing, and there's no tougher test than that.. if monaco doesnt get your pulse racing i dont know what will

Originally posted by ales
Annoyed with Kimi for not trying to pass JPM for the lead, but I guess with the new points system he values the points more than a win at Monaco.

I dont think you can blame Kimi, first of all its notoriously difficult to overtake at Monaco, and second, as you correctly stated, the new points system (which is BS, imo, but thats for another time) doesnt make it worth kimi's while to risk second and go for the win... even under the old points system it probably wouldnt have been worth it... too much to lose after a good race leaving him in a very healthy second...

good race for juan pablo and williams, im delighted for him, he looked ecstatic and understandably so :) , its great to join the greats and triumph at monaco

michael had me confused... first i thought the tyres were to blame for his lacklustre qualifying, which i still believe they played a hand - michelin were top dogs this weekend - but i didnt think he had so much more fuel than the williams and Mclarens, which made his quali performance strong.... when all this emerged he looked in great shape in the race until his middle stint, which confused the shit out of me... :confused: he would have looked good for a win otherwise, considering time he later clawed back... ralf was unlucky, he was faster than anyone until his middle stint, where he was also bizarrely off his earlier pace, in fact a whole second off his earlier pace!! bad luck to get a dodgy set of tyres, but hey, shit happens, bad luck for ralf but it could have been worse, i.e. DC and Trulli being leapfrogged by an opportunistic Alonso :hehe:

i cant understand how u think the race sucked Alex, i'll put it down to your leaning towards Ferrari, for me, it was good to see a williams victory, and another great Monaco GP! :flash:

Let me rephrase a bit: great venue, great atmosphere, good weather. But have you seen my list of overtakings? Yes, had MS won, I'd probably be quite happy, but I can't help it :)

dont worry, i got your list of overtaking... but before the race starts i know there will be no overtaking, but its monaco, dammit! seeing the cars race in those streets is simply insane, F1 without Monaco would be like football (soccer for you yanks) without the World Cup, or Brazil!

had MS won, I'd probably be quite happy, but I can't help it
that's ok, im also a red, in case you hadnt guessed!

I love Monaco, I wouldn't want to see it go. But I also want the cars that can follow closely through the tunnel and enable the drivers to at least try to overtake into the chicane. I'm afraid we'll see the same in Hungary as well.

Originally posted by ales
... Annoyed with Kimi for not trying to pass JPM for the lead, but I guess with the new points system he values the points more than a win at Monaco.

Annoyed with MS not trying to pass the Renault on the circuit in the first half of the race...

Duh, the new points system will hand the crown at the end of the year to the most regular driver of the season, not necesairily the guy with the most wins. So you can't blame anyone who plays it save.

Originally posted by ales
I love Monaco, I wouldn't want to see it go. But I also want the cars that can follow closely through the tunnel and enable the drivers to at least try to overtake into the chicane. I'm afraid we'll see the same in Hungary as well.

As long as I watch this "Formula", Monaco and Hungary have been, are and always will be processions.

Originally posted by ales
..., but I can't help it :)

I bet you can't ;)

Kimi extends his lead by 2 points and McLaren back on top. :D

Originally posted by huudo



Kimi extends his lead by 2 points and McLaren back on top. :D

Now Guido, you know it's not nice to rub it in the face of the Ferrari guys that they aren't winning.
BTW, did anyone notice that once again, the all singing, all dancing F2003 was beaten by a slow,old Mclaren MP4/17D?

Well, that "slow,old Mclaren MP4/17D" was beaten by a slow new FW25, so? And another McLaren was beaten by both Renaults, and beat the other F2003 in turn. You know damn well that point has no relevance at Monaco (*cough*Bernoldi*cough*)

And both DC and Rubens must have had one of the most frustrating races of the year. Knowin they had a better car, and having no opportunity to pass at all.

edit: and what do you mean "once again"? :D

Originally posted by freakray


Now Guido, you know it's not nice to rub it in the face of the Ferrari guys that they aren't winning.


very cheeky, but let me warn you, he who laughs last laughs hardest.. you better hope kimi can accumulate enough second positions to win the championship! :P

Originally posted by ales
Well, that "slow,old Mclaren MP4/17D" was beaten by a slow new FW25, so? And another McLaren was beaten by both Renaults, and beat the other F2003 in turn. You know damn well that point has no relevance at Monaco (*cough*Bernoldi*cough*)

And both DC and Rubens must have had one of the most frustrating races of the year. Knowin they had a better car, and having no opportunity to pass at all.

edit: and what do you mean "once again"? :D

That's exactly it Alex, the irony of the matter is that at Monaco it isn't the fastest that wins the race, it's the guy who manages to get in front at the outset, we all know that.
It's the same way DC got his wire-to-wire win last year, he was in front at the start and the pit crew worked to keep him there.....

Originally posted by crayzayjay


very cheeky, but let me warn you, he who laughs last laughs hardest.. you better hope kimi can accumulate enough second positions to win the championship! :P

You forget that if Kimi hadn't crashed out in Italy, MS would not be so close in the points anyway.
You can't deny that small mistakes can change everything.

whats your point? michael aquaplaned off in Brazil :confused:
besides kimi made a mistake, michael was unlucky

3 wins to one and kimi leads the championship.. makes sense to me :bloated:

im not saying that cos im a ferrari fan, i said from the beginning of the season the points system was a load of sh*te!

Originally posted by crayzayjay
whats your point? michael aquaplaned off in Brazil :confused:
besides kimi made a mistake, michael was unlucky

3 wins to one and kimi leads the championship.. makes sense to me :bloated:

im not saying that cos im a ferrari fan, i said from the beginning of the season the points system was a load of sh*te!

I will never understand you Jay, you seem to want to argue for the sake of argueing.
My point was that Kimi's DNF closed up the points battle, since you mentioned we should hope he can accumulate enough points to hold of MS, I was simply stating his DNF changed it a lot, much like MS's DNF in Brasil did.

It may be 3 wins to one, but Kimi has finished consistantly high in the point standings whereas MS has not.
Look at the season's races to date and Kimi has finished consistantly in the top 3, MS has either won, or finished outside the top 3(aside from today)
With the new point system, which I admit is not fantastic, driving consistantly pays off, especially when you're consistantly within the top 3.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/524241points.jpg

Look at the table, Kimi's 4 2nd places alone negate MS's 3 1st places, plus Kimi has a win, they have a DNF a piece so that brings everything back to an even number of finishes. The difference is that when Kimi didn't win he was in the top 3, MS was not.
Cry the points system if you want, but the consistancy is also making a difference.

Get real ray, i dont argue with anything "for the sake of it". You brought up kimi's dnf as a reason why michael closed the points gap and i simply pointed out that michael also dnf'd, which negates that argument :rolleyes: Keep the arguments on-topic and not personal, thank you

as for the points system, i know kimi's consistent scoring has put him on top of the leader board, but as you say youre not too crazy about the new points system, just as i am not. thats all i was saying. yes his 4 2nd place finishes offset michael's 3 wins and a 6th position, but do you find that right? i dont. i think winning a race should be rewarded, as it was before.... i dont want a consistent WDC with a grand total of 3 wins by the end of the season, i want one who won races... believe me this isnt about the driver, if the tables were turned id be thinking "phew, michael's lucky to be leading the championship".. for instance, much as i dislike him, and i really do, i believe gronholm should be leading the WRC, where they’ve also screwed up the points system

Originally posted by crayzayjay

3 wins to one and kimi leads the championship.. makes sense to me :bloated:

im not saying that cos im a ferrari fan, i said from the beginning of the season the points system was a load of sh*te!

Can be, but it'll not change anything. Rules are rules, if they're sh*te or not, is what I've been saying from the beginning. Not that I like 'em, but in all comparisons made at the beginning of this year - recalculating the old results with the new point system etc. - didn't change the outcome of the championship, as far as the 1st place is concerned. With the old point system, they would have been on equal 38 points. With 3 wins against 1 win. Does that make sense?? Not much except that the guy with 1 win is - like Ray stated correctly - more constant in the points. That's not an argument, that's just facts of results. ;)

Originally posted by crayzayjay
whats your point? michael aquaplaned off in Brazil :confused:
besides kimi made a mistake, michael was unlucky



I think they both were unlucky or both made a mistake... Depends on what camp you're in and how passionate you are about it ;)

Originally posted by huudo


Can be, but it'll not change anything. Rules are rules, if they're sh*te or not, is what I've been saying from the beginning. Not that I like 'em, but in all comparisons made at the beginning of this year - recalculating the old results with the new point system etc. - didn't change the outcome of the championship, as far as the 1st place is concerned. With the old point system, they would have been on equal 38 points. With 3 wins against 1 win. Does that make sense?? Not much except that the guy with 1 win is - like Ray stated correctly - more constant in the points. That's not an argument, that's just facts of results. ;)

Oh I agree with that, what’s done is done, its not like no one ever told Schumacher of the new rules! Im just saying they blow :D

Being equal on 38 points makes more sense than the way it currently stands, i dont remember anone complaining about the old system, evern when their team was losing

As for last year, the new system wouldn’t have changed anything cos Ferrari won everything! ;)

Anyway, the system was designed to slow the Red Baron, which its doing exactly that, so theres nothing to do but see if it succeeds. 10 races to go, its a long way from over

Originally posted by crayzayjay


Anyway, the system was designed to slow the Red Baron, which its doing exactly that, so theres nothing to do but see if it succeeds. 10 races to go, its a long way from over

Partially true. Your so called Red Baron and his team are not so dominant this year then they were last year, because of a variety of reasons. Not only because of the new point scoring system. Blaming that is a bit of a too simplified way to explain the lack of dominance this year.

Luck for others and stonger competition for example are also important factors. Schum indicated before the season was go, that McLaren would be a far more bigger threat this year then last year. And he's right.

It's not going to be a walk-over in 2003. Maybe they'll win it, but McLaren surely is given them a hard ride for there money.

Originally posted by crayzayjay
Get real ray, i dont argue with anything "for the sake of it". You brought up kimi's dnf as a reason why michael closed the points gap and i simply pointed out that michael also dnf'd, which negates that argument :rolleyes: Keep the arguments on-topic and not personal, thank you

as for the points system, i know kimi's consistent scoring has put him on top of the leader board, but as you say youre not too crazy about the new points system, just as i am not. thats all i was saying. yes his 4 2nd place finishes offset michael's 3 wins and a 6th position, but do you find that right? i dont. i think winning a race should be rewarded, as it was before.... i dont want a consistent WDC with a grand total of 3 wins by the end of the season, i want one who won races... believe me this isnt about the driver, if the tables were turned id be thinking "phew, michael's lucky to be leading the championship".. for instance, much as i dislike him, and i really do, i believe gronholm should be leading the WRC, where they’ve also screwed up the points system



My point in bringing up Kimi's DNF was due to the fact that if it were not because of it, the points battle would not be so close, had MS not done the same in Brasil, the tables would be turned completely.
I don't see how you can construe anyone as making arguments personal here, I was only suggesting we should have constructive argument and not meaningless bashing.

I agree about Marcus too, but that is another example of a daft points system where the consistant driver is being rewarded, this time to Burns' advantage.

Michelin has also raised the game of the teams that are using them. Tyre wars always introduce another factor into who's doing well and who isn't. I like the idea of one make tire, no special team testing deals, just straight out one equal tyre for all. :)

Originally posted by Veyron
Michelin has also raised the game of the teams that are using them. Tyre wars always introduce another factor into who's doing well and who isn't. I like the idea of one make tire, no special team testing deals, just straight out one equal tyre for all. :)

Nascar? :confused:

Originally posted by freakray


Nascar? :confused:

I think he refers to the "Goodyear alone" years, but I might be wrong ;) :D

Originally posted by huudo


Partially true. Your so called Red Baron and his team are not so dominant this year then they were last year, because of a variety of reasons. Not only because of the new point scoring system. Blaming that is a bit of a too simplified way to explain the lack of dominance this year.


I dont blame the points system for the lack of dominance, i just said it's slowing him down, which it is :)

i completely recognise that the opposition have stepped up their game, or just McLaren really

Originally posted by freakray


My point in bringing up Kimi's DNF was due to the fact that if it were not because of it, the points battle would not be so close, had MS not done the same in Brasil, the tables would be turned completely.
I don't see how you can construe anyone as making arguments personal here, I was only suggesting we should have constructive argument and not meaningless bashing.


LOL! When you say "I will never understand you Jay, you seem to want to argue for the sake of argueing", that's the definition of “personal”, and nothing to do with your "constructive" objective. And I don’t know where you saw any “meaningless bashing” on my part, in that there wasn’t any, unless you count my own joking response to your own teasing of Ferrari. I didnt realise that fell under "bashing". From now on, only you joke. As for the dnf thing, it still doesn’t make any sense in that you chose not to mention michael’s dnf in your first post – which is what I was correcting – and the fact is the two dnf’s rule each other out. in fact those dnf's are the easiest thing about comparing these two drivers this year in that you can exclude those results from the comparison immediately

Originally posted by crayzayjay


LOL! When you say "I will never understand you Jay, you seem to want to argue for the sake of argueing", that's the definition of “personal”, and nothing to do with your "constructive" objective. And I don’t know where you saw any “meaningless bashing” on my part, in that there wasn’t any, unless you count my own joking response to your own teasing of Ferrari. I didnt realise that fell under "bashing". From now on, only you joke. As for the dnf thing, it still doesn’t make any sense in that you chose not to mention michael’s dnf in your first post – which is what I was correcting – and the fact is the two dnf’s rule each other out. in fact those dnf's are the easiest thing about comparing these two drivers this year in that you can exclude those results from the comparison immediately

I said that because I have noticed that you like to get into debate, much like we are doing here, and I don't think it is entirely necessary when we actually agree on the points system amongst other things. I did not mean for you take it offensively, I apologise.
I already admitted I omitted to mention MS's DNF, so your attempting to point that out is frivolous.
I never said I saw any meaningless bashing on your part, I simply asked that it be avoided.
Shall we close this argument here, it is quite pointless Jay, we agree on everything else but we'er still argueing because we misundertand each other on certain things?

Originally posted by freakray


Nascar? :confused:

Yikes! We're never to mention that word in this forum. :eek:

I just didn't like the way Bridgestone catered to Ferrari when they were the only supplier etc., and in general, tyre wars make the cars faster which goes against what the FIA is supposedly trying to prevent. I know manufacturers want to be involved in this arena and Goodyear may well be a third supplier in the near future. I wonder if each manufacturer took turns supplying a spec tyre like F3000 uses, either race to race or yearly might be a better deal.

Originally posted by Veyron


Yikes! We're never to mention that word in this forum. :eek:


My bad:bloated: :silly:

Originally posted by freakray


I said that because I have noticed that you like to get into debate, much like we are doing here, and I don't think it is entirely necessary when we actually agree on the points system amongst other things. I did not mean for you take it offensively, I apologise.
I already admitted I omitted to mention MS's DNF, so your attempting to point that out is frivolous.
I never said I saw any meaningless bashing on your part, I simply asked that it be avoided.
Shall we close this argument here, it is quite pointless Jay, we agree on everything else but we'er still argueing because we misundertand each other on certain things?

Apology accepted. The DNF thing was a misunderstanding. We move on.

Originally posted by Veyron



I just didn't like the way Bridgestone catered to Ferrari when they were the only supplier etc., and in general, tyre wars make the cars faster which goes against what the FIA is supposedly trying to prevent. I know manufacturers want to be involved in this arena and Goodyear may well be a third supplier in the near future. I wonder if each manufacturer took turns supplying a spec tyre like F3000 uses, either race to race or yearly might be a better deal.

They also catered for McLaren right? Until the moment they showed intention - inside - to go with Michelin. From then on, it was a Ferrari excersice.

I like the tyre war. It adds an extra dimension to the sport. But 2 is not enough. Goodyear AND Pirelli should move back into the game. No standardization for me, but custom made solutions is what I prefer. Cause it goes for regular road cars as well. A Michelin fe is far the best option when you drive a French car. Bridgestone or Uniroyal or Pirelli do make it behave not so well.