Getting tired of hearing this from car reviewers

Case in point:

This test drive of the renovated Chrysler Sebring(the 200) by USAToday's James Healey: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2011-07-14-chrysler-200-convertible_n.htm

About 1/3rd of the way down he remarks "
•Steering flaws. One is feel. Too boosted at parking-lot speed, as if the front wheels are on ice, and lacking direct road feel at higher speed.
The other is torque steer. The Limited test car pulled unacceptably hard to the right on heavy acceleration. The Touring was less affected. Touring tires have taller sidewalls, and a little more "give," which could help explain the difference.
Winter: "We're aware of the torque steer. We haven't had any feedback that it's an issue in the convertible. We don't think it's a customer concern.""

Mr. Winter at Chrysler doesn't think it's a customer concern?? Who the heck is he kidding?! :banghead:

During the latter half of the past decade, Healey at USA and other reviewers at Consumerguide . com, Motor Trend, and C&D have been making similar remarks regarding the steering on cars the past 5 or so model years up, including but not limited to:

- "..twitchy steering.."

- "..constant corrections at highway speeds..."

- "...numb...vague..."

- "..overboosted power steering....little feedback.."

And to be clear - it's NOT THE REVIEWERS I'm tired of at all! What is this, the late '60s? the mid-'70s - when cars were big enough to qualify for their own zipcode?! And I have had personal experience with some of what they've said - with my last-owned electric steering 2005 Malibu.

How can we be having these kinds of comments nowadays, given the contemporary ability to make anything on the road handle like a 3 or 5-Series?????

WHAT are both American and foreign auto builders NOT GETTING HERE? We've done the moon, the Concorde, the Shuttle, built cell phones that can do anything but clean house or cook meals!

And still, STILL, that's all the car testers can say about many cars they've tested? I - we - want answers. We want to know how difficult it is to build a steering/suspension system - for any sized car - that provides reasonable feedback, steering return, is tight straight-ahead, and is easy to both park and drive by anyone from 16 to 86 years old, slight of build or ripped muscular, from 4' 8" to 6' 8" tall.

Now I don't want to hear "Write the manufacturers" as a reply. This needs serious research as there are safety implications here. If consumers truly prefer the kind of steering that expert auto reviewers find "..vague...twitchy.." then they seriously need professional help. I, for one, am not one of them, and as I said before elsewhere, I want to see these demographics in writing! :iceslolan

The statement by Mr. Winters suggests that he doesn't think that the type of driver that is likely to buy this type of car will ever notice the flaws in the steering and handling of that car.
I would say that most of the people that buy BMWs wouldn't know whether or not they have good or bad steering characteristics--only that they they have a BMW and that's enough for them.
It's an enthusiasts magazines road testers job to dissect the steering, handling and road performance for the benefit of the automotive enthusiasts WHO DRIVE THE CAR HARD ENOUGH TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, which make up maybe 2%, or less, of the buying public.
The rest of the public just wants a car to drive straight down the highway on the way to the hairdresser and to look shiny in the driveway.
Mr. Winters only concern is that somebody who's in the market to buy that type of car will read that issue of USA Today, and even then, I suspect the women of the house will make the buying decision based on what she thinks of the interior colors... ;)

Mr. Winters only concern is that somebody who's in the market to buy that type of car will read that issue of USA Today, and even then, I suspect the women of the house will make the buying decision based on what she thinks of the interior colors... ;)



Absolutely!

If you want a car with responsive steering, handling etc, go and buy a Lotus.

The vast majority of mainstream cars are being made simpler and easier to drive, not because the manufacturers want to, but because the buying public want them too.

Absolutely!

If you want a car with responsive steering, handling etc, go and buy a Lotus.

The vast majority of mainstream cars are being made simpler and easier to drive, not because the manufacturers want to, but because the buying public want them too.

At the risk of repeating, I want to see proof(not from you - from the mfgs!) of what you are suggesting. I am certainly not a member of that "buying public".

We're talking about a contribution to safety here. Steering that is firm straight ahead but quickly responds to evasive action is a safety item, not a premium feature, a la heated & cooled latte-dispensing back-massaging surround-sound BUCKET SEATS!!! :confused:

At the risk of repeating, I want to see proof(not from you - from the mfgs!) of what you are suggesting. I am certainly not a member of that "buying public".

We're talking about a contribution to safety here. Steering that is firm straight ahead but quickly responds to evasive action is a safety item, not a premium feature, a la heated & cooled latte-dispensing back-massaging surround-sound BUCKET SEATS!!! :confused:


Sales.

Sales.

Sales.

Sales.

Sales.

Sales.

Hardly proof if the majority of what is available has the same flaws!

Hardly proof if the majority of what is available has the same flaws!

I think what Moppie meant to imply was "must ... sell .. more" even if what they are selling handles like crap. :runaround: :runaround:

Americans have a very bad reputation for liking soft, poor handling cars.

Its one reason the Europeans have often had a hard time breaking into the US market, and in order to do so have softened and changed their suspension to match.

Here in NZ and Australia we generally like cars that are a little firmer and more responsive, but have a good mix of cars from around the world.

I have US built Accord Wagon, while my better half has a NZ built Accord sedan.
Both are from the same factory in the US, bu the NZ car was assembled here, and along with different spec, has quite a different suspension set up.
It is a lot more responsive, and noticeable harder sprung and dampened.

The new Camaro has just gone on sale here in limited numbers.
It uses the same engine, chassis and suspension set up as the Holden Monaro and Holden HSV models.
Yet road tests here and in Australia, comparing the Camaro to various Holden HSV models have shown it's slower in a straight line and does not handle nearly as well.
Not only is it soft to drive, but it doesn't match the HSV's for corner grip and ability to change direction.



GM is quite capable of building a large V8 RWD car, with lots of HP that also handles well and is fun to drive.
They do it very well in Australia, and sell the cars in Europe and the Middle East.
Yet these same cars get softened and dumbed down for the US market.

Americans have a very bad reputation for liking soft, poor handling cars.



Correct! I drive an American spec Honda Civic in Germany. On turns where I am at the limit of body roll and understeer, comparable European spec cars have no problem. I'm talking grocery getters like the Skoda Fabia, VW Polo etc. Even the tiny econo-cars seem to handle more athletically.

Middle category vehicles like VW Passats and others feel like supercars compared to mine. It makes me kind of regret getting an American spec car. (On the other hand, I'm lazy and wanted an automatic)

A lot of Germans also use high performance tires in the summer.

I guess American Jell-o suspension can be associated with poor road conditions and snail speed limits.

GM is quite capable of building a large V8 RWD car, with lots of HP that also handles well and is fun to drive.
They do it very well in Australia, and sell the cars in Europe and the Middle East.
Yet these same cars get softened and dumbed down for the US market.

Then how difficult would it be to arrange test seminars, on a track simulating present road conditions - even a crack or small pot hole here or there - where subjects of the American driving public could come in and test drive several variants of the same make/model??

I.E. The Impala. Build a soft-sprung version with next to no caster/camber with the power steering jacked up to 12, and then provide one with 7 degrees of caster, negative-1 degree camber all around, variable power steering that shuts down above 30mph and springs so taut that if an elephant sat on one it would pop out of their mouth - know what I mean?

Instead of surveys the public fills out, have them DRIVE various platforms and decide for themselves what they wouldn't mind experiencing daily. Then, configure suspensions based on THAT data, not on what comes from a survey!

I for one have no problem driving on "American" roads. Yes, for my 2008 Optima I do find myself speeding almost all the time - 35 in a 25 zone, 40 in a 30, 70 on a highway posted at 55 or 65. I'm very comfortable with this car's setup. 40 does feel like 30mph in this car. What does that say about the posted speed limit? 8 letters: p o l i t i c s ! Science has nothing to do with it. Yes, my 2005 Malibu V6 certainly had more power across the band, but it was a white-knuckle ordeal at anything over 30mph. I have learned over time that not all destinations can be arrived at in a straight line. ;) And that, for moi, is where handling trumps power/torque every single time.

So my proposal is to get consumers involved in the test phase of design and development, and see what happens. I don't think the U.S. public is "dumb" at all. The dumbing down comes from the media and from providers of products that charges more by the decade while reducing overall quality and features and thinking most of us will be too "dumb" to notice! It is up to the consumer - it is they who have the power to demand more and beat manufacturers at this game of greed.

Correct! I drive an American spec Honda Civic in Germany. On turns where I am at the limit of body roll and understeer, comparable European spec cars have no problem. I'm talking grocery getters like the Skoda Fabia, VW Polo etc. Even the tiny econo-cars seem to handle more athletically.

Middle category vehicles like VW Passats and others feel like supercars compared to mine. It makes me kind of regret getting an American spec car. (On the other hand, I'm lazy and wanted an automatic)

A lot of Germans also use high performance tires in the summer.

I guess American Jell-o suspension can be associated with poor road conditions and snail speed limits.

Well I s'pose there's one way to get around the "mushiness wars" of domestic intent: Import the BMW/Kia/VW/Toyota you desire directly from that country. Even if it costs more in terms of shipping, and modifying the emmissions to U.S. standards, the overall effect should be a car you enjoy driving as much as all those other features that adorn the cabin.

Well I s'pose there's one way to get around the "mushiness wars" of domestic intent: Import the BMW/Kia/VW/Toyota you desire directly from that country. Even if it costs more in terms of shipping, and modifying the emmissions to U.S. standards, the overall effect should be a car you enjoy driving as much as all those other features that adorn the cabin.

Wouldnt an aftermarket suspension be cheaper?

I think the majority of people looking at mainstream cars are concerned with three things: appearance, price and fuel economy. The car with extra thought and engineering put into its suspension and steering will undoubtedly lose in the price category.

Science has nothing to do with it. Yes, my 2005 Malibu V6 certainly had more power across the band, but it was a white-knuckle ordeal at anything over 30mph. I have learned over time that not all destinations can be arrived at in a straight line. ;) And that, for moi, is where handling trumps power/torque every single time.



I'd say that if you are "white knuckling" a 2005 Malibu at anything over 30 MPH, you need to relax some (!), or start replacing parts, and find a technician to perform that alignment that it so sorely needs.
By the way, roads that are worn out may cause your car to pull badly to one side or the other.
It's worse with wide tires and/or a poor choice of rims (offset/setback).

So my proposal is to get consumers involved in the test phase of design and development, and see what happens. I don't think the U.S. public is "dumb" at all. The dumbing down comes from the media and from providers of products that charges more by the decade while reducing overall quality and features and thinking most of us will be too "dumb" to notice! It is up to the consumer - it is they who have the power to demand more and beat manufacturers at this game of greed.



I believe this does happen. And the consumers all say they want as little involvement as possible in the driving process.


Cars built, or designed outside of the US market get softened before sold there, and cars built and designed there get stiffened if they want them to sell well out side the US.

Here in NZ, Kia, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Nissan etc, all bring in cars with slightly stiffer suspension just for our market.

I'd say that if you are "white knuckling" a 2005 Malibu at anything over 30 MPH, you need to relax some (!), or start replacing parts, and find a technician to perform that alignment that it so sorely needs.
By the way, roads that are worn out may cause your car to pull badly to one side or the other.
It's worse with wide tires and/or a poor choice of rims (offset/setback).

The Mali was like that from the factory. Problem is on that year the electric p.s. lent no feedback. It felt the same weight-wise from center to side to side! I don't mind if my car pulls on a worn or heavily crowned street - as long as it pulls to the right!

The Mali was like that from the factory. Problem is on that year the electric p.s. lent no feedback. It felt the same weight-wise from center to side to side! I don't mind if my car pulls on a worn or heavily crowned street - as long as it pulls to the right!


You could sell it and buy something a little more entertaining?

You could sell it and buy something a little more entertaining?


Uhm, read 1/2way down through my post #10 to see what I'm currently driving - and enjoying(!)

The Mali was like that from the factory. Problem is on that year the electric p.s. lent no feedback. It felt the same weight-wise from center to side to side! I don't mind if my car pulls on a worn or heavily crowned street - as long as it pulls to the right!
Hmm.
I like cars that don't have a big force buildup as you steer into a corner.
Steering that gets heavier and heavier as the chassis loads up is for rookies and grandmothers, IMO. Magazines testers seem to like it 'tho. Probably because it is "safe" and it tends to discourages a person from going fast around the corner (you shouldn't be doing this, mister).
Drove a Pontiac G6 rental car a couple years ago, and not only did the steering feel "sticky" on center, it had no self-centering at all.
Seems that I drove it down the road in a series of zig-zags.
Spoiled what was otherwise a pretty good car.
Mentioned it at work and a gal said her dad owned one. He (75 years old) had mentioned to her that the steering was "funny"--but he bought it anyway.....

Hmm.
I like cars that don't have a big force buildup as you steer into a corner.
Steering that gets heavier and heavier as the chassis loads up is for rookies and grandmothers, IMO. Magazines testers seem to like it 'tho. Probably because it is "safe" and it tends to discourages a person from going fast around the corner (you shouldn't be doing this, mister).
Drove a Pontiac G6 rental car a couple years ago, and not only did the steering feel "sticky" on center, it had no self-centering at all.
Seems that I drove it down the road in a series of zig-zags.
Spoiled what was otherwise a pretty good car.
Mentioned it at work and a gal said her dad owned one. He (75 years old) had mentioned to her that the steering was "funny"--but he bought it anyway.....

Congratulations on your experience in the G6: You just drove the cousin of the Malibu!! LOL. They all had that video-game feel for those years.

Seriously though. "Sticky on center"? Please explain that one. LOL
It contradicts your next sentence "no self-centering at all." regarding the G6.

Your first two sentences also contradict each other - first you say you like force buildup, then you say "chassis loads up is for rookies....."

Please clarify all the above and explain what you think is the "ideal" steering feel.

Signed,

-Confounded

Uhm, read 1/2way down through my post #10 to see what I'm currently driving - and enjoying(!)


Ahh, I was looking at one of those at a carshow on the weekend.
The guy pushing it made it very clear that the NZ/Au models all had a firmer suspension set up than the rest of the world gets.




-Confounded


I understood him perfectly, he just said it doesn't handle like a Lotus.. :evillol:

By sticky, I mean that you put a little effort at the wheel and nothing happens, then put a little more and nothing happens, then put a little more and the wheel turns-- and the car corrects a little than you intended (or I intended).
In my experience with a typical car, the effort at steering wheel,when you are negotiating a turn, tends to get higher and higher the faster the car goes around the corner.
I don't like that. A person ends up fighting the wheel -the car is fighting back ;) -trying to
steer the car around the corner. I believe the car should be guided around the corner with a minimum of effort on my part. I like to be able to sense what the front tires are doing with my fingertips, so to speak. I don't like to have to use a death grip on the wheel because the car is trying to automatically straighten the wheels out while I'm trying to feel for grip.
Typically, with power steering equipped cars, the steering effort is not high at all, but the steering feels vague to me.
The car tries to straighten the wheels by itself using king pin inclination, caster, scrub radius and pneumatic trail that is generated from the steered tires contact patch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_trail
Caster combined with scrub radius really tries to load the steering wheel up with self-centering forces in a corner. This masks the feel of the tire contact patch itself.
As the cornering speed builds up, the tire begins to distort, the length of the contact patch begins to shorten from the rear to the front of the tire. By itself then, the steering will get lighter because of reduced self aligning torque. This gives a driver an indication the the tire is starting to run out of grip. Left by itself and with "not enough" caster, the self aligning torque will be no more and could actually reverse. At a reduced caster- to 1.5*, in certain conditions, my '89 Lotus will steer by itself into the corner and if you let go of the wheel it will dart in and attempt to spin out...it's actually fun!
Typically the manufacturer will add steering weight or effort back into the steering artificially with more caster, etc., to discourage grandma from driving like this. But this muddies the feedback you're getting from the tires.
Unfortunately, the addition of power steering almost mandates more caster just to give you a sense of where "center" is, so you'll loose much of the real feedback from the tires right there.
The trick is to give the car enough power boost to enable grandma to parallel park the car and retain some tire feedback that the enthusiasts want.
It's a pretty tricky thing to do, I guess.
What was the question again?
I forgot, time to go to bed.

By sticky, I mean that you put a little effort at the wheel and nothing happens, then put a little more and nothing happens, then put a little more and the wheel turns-- and the car corrects a little than you intended (or I intended).
In my experience with a typical car, the effort at steering wheel,when you are negotiating a turn, tends to get higher and higher the faster the car goes around the corner.
I don't like that. A person ends up fighting the wheel -the car is fighting back ;) -trying to
steer the car around the corner. I believe the car should be guided around the corner with a minimum of effort on my part. I like to be able to sense what the front tires are doing with my fingertips, so to speak. I don't like to have to use a death grip on the wheel because the car is trying to automatically straighten the wheels out while I'm trying to feel for grip.
Typically, with power steering equipped cars, the steering effort is not high at all, but the steering feels vague to me.
The car tries to straighten the wheels by itself using king pin inclination, caster, scrub radius and pneumatic trail that is generated from the steered tires contact patch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_trail
Caster combined with scrub radius really tries to load the steering wheel up with self-centering forces in a corner. This masks the feel of the tire contact patch itself.
As the cornering speed builds up, the tire begins to distort, the length of the contact patch begins to shorten from the rear to the front of the tire. By itself then, the steering will get lighter because of reduced self aligning torque. This gives a driver an indication the the tire is starting to run out of grip. Left by itself and with "not enough" caster, the self aligning torque will be no more and could actually reverse. At a reduced caster- to 1.5*, in certain conditions, my '89 Lotus will steer by itself into the corner and if you let go of the wheel it will dart in and attempt to spin out...it's actually fun!
Typically the manufacturer will add steering weight or effort back into the steering artificially with more caster, etc., to discourage grandma from driving like this. But this muddies the feedback you're getting from the tires.
Unfortunately, the addition of power steering almost mandates more caster just to give you a sense of where "center" is, so you'll loose much of the real feedback from the tires right there.
The trick is to give the car enough power boost to enable grandma to parallel park the car and retain some tire feedback that the enthusiasts want.
It's a pretty tricky thing to do, I guess.
What was the question again?
I forgot, time to go to bed.

Sounds like what you need is a BMW! My wife drove two of her boss's 3 series from 2003 and 2005, and while both cars were "tight", she did mention that she had to center the steering wheel herself. The wheel did return to center, but verrrrry slowly, at 20, 40, or even 60mph. What she did notice is how stiff the wheel was to turn - not all loosey-goosey a la vintage Buick. And when she did need a quick course correction - that Bimmer was more than obedient! Interesting combination; I don't know how they do it.

I just feel more secure with a fast rate of return and some heft away from center. I shouldn't have to check if my car's logo is right-side-up to know where I'm aiming the steering wheel at. LOL! I should know by feel if I going into a turn, actually in a turn, and coming out of one - particularly after dark.

And I guess my other recent post - of Ferrari & Lotus alignment specs - missed everyone completely. My purpose for posting that data was to demonstrate that huge amounts of caster or SAI were not necessary for good road feel - reducing power steering assist is!

Sounds like what you need is a BMW!
And I guess my other recent post - of Ferrari & Lotus alignment specs - missed everyone completely. My purpose for posting that data was to demonstrate that huge amounts of caster or SAI were not necessary for good road feel - reducing power steering assist is!

No, I like the feel I get from my '89. It's even better than my 2003 Esprit with power steering. It's like you have your hands right out there on the steering linkage. The 2003 car is relatively numb IMO.
If your steering is good or accurate enough, you don't need to have it firm on center. If the car wanders a tick from the center of the lane, all it should need is maybe an ounce or two of force from your fingers or wrist to bring it back. However I have to work a little harder if the road is worn out (grooves, ridges, etc.). Grandma might put in in a ditch while lighting her cigar while holding her beer at night because of that.
On the cars I've tried it on, reducing the caster to the point where it's barely stable, at the speeds that I normally drive on a back road blitz seems to work for me. The '89 Esprit seems to be rock solid at 140 MPH, still. And that might be good aerodynamics coming into play. Another person driving the car might not appreciate the fact that you can't just hang your hands on the wheel, or the amount of kickback you get when the wheel hits a big bump.
I saw your other post, I didn't know what to make of it.
If your curious, and I happen to be a slimey showoff anyway ;) -- here's my two Loti.
The '89 has model year 94+ S4 plastic front and rear, plus a GT3 rear transom/spoiler. I also put the old narrow SE wheels on it (shown) and found that it handles better.
Gotta go out and tinker with the 2003 now--prepping it up for an intercooler installation later in the year.
Cheers.

No, I like the feel I get from my '89. It's even better than my 2003 Esprit with power steering. It's like you have your hands right out there on the steering linkage. The 2003 car is relatively numb IMO.
If your steering is good or accurate enough, you don't need to have it firm on center. If the car wanders a tick from the center of the lane, all it should need is maybe an ounce or two of force from your fingers or wrist to bring it back. However I have to work a little harder if the road is worn out (grooves, ridges, etc.). Grandma might put in in a ditch while lighting her cigar while holding her beer at night because of that.
On the cars I've tried it on, reducing the caster to the point where it's barely stable, at the speeds that I normally drive on a back road blitz seems to work for me. The '89 Esprit seems to be rock solid at 140 MPH, still. And that might be good aerodynamics coming into play. Another person driving the car might not appreciate the fact that you can't just hang your hands on the wheel, or the amount of kickback you get when the wheel hits a big bump.
I saw your other post, I didn't know what to make of it.
If your curious, and I happen to be a slimey showoff anyway ;) -- here's my two Loti.
The '89 has model year 94+ S4 plastic front and rear, plus a GT3 rear transom/spoiler. I also put the old narrow SE wheels on it (shown) and found that it handles better.
Gotta go out and tinker with the 2003 now--prepping it up for an intercooler installation later in the year.
Cheers.


Nice rides! But I must ask: How does a vehicle remain directionally stable with nearly perfectly vertical steering axes(SAI and Caster)? I must be missing something here.

Nice rides! But I must ask: How does a vehicle remain directionally stable with nearly perfectly vertical steering axes(SAI and Caster)? I must be missing something here.


The secret is to use a Triumph Herald upright between the upper and lower wishbones.
Don't ask why, but it just works.
Every pre-Elise Lotus uses them, from the Europa to the V8 Esprit.

The secret is to use a Triumph Herald upright between the upper and lower wishbones.
Don't ask why, but it just works.
Every pre-Elise Lotus uses them, from the Europa to the V8 Esprit.

Well, unfortunately most econoboxes don't utilized wishbone suspensions. I'll have to do more research into the herald upright - sounds interesting!

Well, unfortunately most econoboxes don't utilized wishbone suspensions.

Worked for Honda during the 90s...... :smokin:

SAI for my V8 is 9.7*. Front caster is +3* according to the Tech Notes.
SAI for my '89 is 9.2*. Front caster is minimum +1.5*, max +3* (pre Eagle chassis--my car..)
Eagle chassis caster-- preferred +1.0*, max +1.5*.
Stock, the '89 has a slight amount of front toe-in, and the 2003 V8 has a slight amount of toe-out.
Since I have a portable laser aligner at home, I do my own suspension alignments, and have found both cars are VERY sensitive to toe in the front. Also, sensitive to camber in the back.
Too much camber in the back leads to wandering behavior on worn roads--(tire camber thrust?), altho' this may be a case where the tire I selected is not compatible with the car.
The Eagle chassis cars had pro-dive instead of anti-dive geometry, and had too much understeer for most testers.
------------------------
An interesting note, Lotus was interested in developing a new damper/spring package to sell to owners who wanted to upgrade their suspensions. This package makes the cars more compatible with the newer tires that are available. (I bought this for my 2003)
So they asked for a number of volunteers to donate their car for the research. The cars would be road tested as is, then the factory would completely overhaul the suspensions, then start the research.
Quite a few English enthusiast owners took advantage of this.
After driving the cars, as is, on the test track, almost all of them were judged to be "UNSAFE".
The owners, being enthusiasts, had felt their cars to be well maintained examples.........
Which leads me to this rant--
ALL of the cars that I have bought USED have needed some front end work. Every one.
A car with 29,000 miles, a car with 38,000 miles, 79,000 miles ==== junky front ends.
Even my 2003 Esprit with 8,500 miles on it had duff upper ball joints!

Worked for Honda during the 90s...... :smokin:

Which leads back to my original question: Just who are these IDIOT consumers who would prefer, over a double wish-bone, suspensions that isolate them further from the roads and steer like crap?!

Here is a link to a page featuring a vehicle with Herald upright suspensions. http://www.spitfireart.com/suspension.html I did notice the coiled springs are at the equivalent of what would be 20deg SAI(!). Did that angle contribute to the forward stability of this setup?

Not sure what you're getting at.
SAI means steering axis inclination. Or in LotusSpeak-swivel axis inclination.
It's a line drawn (in the front suspension view) from the upper ball joint to lower ball joint- and its relationship in degrees to true vertical.
It shows (in the front view again) how this line intersects the ground plane and the relationship with (distance from) the center of the contact patch of the tire. The distance is "scrub radius".
SAI will, when the wheel and hub assy rotates forward around the axis, cause the centerline of the wheel to translate down, which forces the front of the car up on that side. Since gravity resists this, it will try to restore the wheels to straight ahead.
I would say that the pictures at that site show that the individual the fabbed the suspension moved the lower locating point of the spring as close to the lower ball joint as he dared--which is good.
Then located the upper point to the first convinient place, on the chassis.
The angle of the spring would show a slight decreasing rate with jounce (as opposed to rising rate) and wouldn't matter much, IMO.
Here is a pic of the front suspension of the last of the older Esprits built--like mine--notice the skinny front sway bar. There is no rear bar.
Front vu, Oblique vu, underside vu, inboard view. Probably doesn't look much like a Herald 'tho.

S
Even my 2003 Esprit with 8,500 miles on it had duff upper ball joints!


The V8s are really, really bad at wearing out those upper joints.
It's 100% pure Triumph, designed in the 50s to carry a skinny little cross ply tyre on a skinny little car with about 50hp. :screwy:


Which leads back to my original question: Just who are these IDIOT consumers who would prefer, over a double wish-bone, suspensions that isolate them further from the roads and steer like crap?!


They are the average consumer, people who don't enjoy driving, but instead see the car as simply a mode of transport. One that want to be involved with as little as possible.

The V8s are really, really bad at wearing out those upper joints.
It's 100% pure Triumph, designed in the 50s to carry a skinny little cross ply tyre on a skinny little car with about 50hp. :screwy:





They are the average consumer, people who don't enjoy driving, but instead see the car as simply a mode of transport. One that want to be involved with as little as possible.


The same ones who want heated and cooled seats. The same ones who want the car to parallel park itself. The same ones who want more displays on their dashboards with more buttons to push. The SAME... :runaround::uhoh:

I could go on, but it makes my blood boil.

I suggest my type of reverse engineering. Out with the new, in with the old. My wife's. 78 Z28 handles and steers like a dream. Throw a tubular suspension on a muscle car and it will out-handle a new car and look cool doing it.