Huge paint question

So I was at a local outomotive paint supply store today. I went in looking for urethane clear since I want to move in that direction. What the gentleman there told me left me sad/angry/disappointed. And As he told me it made sense why my kits have started to look "dull" after some time. He said that laquers never stop evaporating/releasing fumes. As a consequence it starts to look faded/dull, even if clear coated with urethane :shakehead

So I started thinking of how I wasted so much time painting/polishing my kits that will look dull in time:banghead:. And believe me it has not taken long. This brings me to my current dilemma.

I wondering if Zero Paints is a laquer product since I have a jar of Rosso Scuderia I was planing on using. This is so sad and pushes me more in the direction of scifi ships so that I can get away from this mess. Painting cars is going to get really expensive if I do this. Paint, weather and seal all with acrylic products. Awesome!

Thanks for your input

...said that laquers never stop evaporating/releasing fumes...

wow, I never knew paint manufacturers had mastered the art of making paints that have an infinite amount of solvents in them

wow, I never knew paint manufacturers had mastered the art of making paints that have an infinite amount of solvents in them


Haha dunno if you are being sarcastic. I just know that cars are not painted with them anymore. One thing that was mentioned to me is that if you wipe laquer paint with thinner it disolves it easily. While urethane does not get affected immediately. Then again what do I know? I'm just a house painter :eek7:

This is why I ask

I tried to restore some of my old builds (like more than 10 years old) by re-polishing the surface to a mirror-like finish, only to discover that the surface got dull after a while. So, what the paint shop guy says is probably true in not the literal sense of "forever," but in the practical sense of years or decades.
But if you clear coat, you can restore the clear layer at least for a few attempts until you rub all the way through to the base coat, and restoration of the clear layer should be satisfactory enough for a car model.

As for urethane clear, it appears to be holding the original sheen better than lacquer (that's synthetic lacquer like Tamiya TS spray and Mr. Color), but none of my urethane-coated models are old enough to tell the actual strength of the paint just yet.

Ok. But my question is still unanswered. Are Zero paints laquers? I believe they are, but want to know for sure :smile:

ppfffttt! Keep your models in dust free areas out of direct UV (sun) light and keep your fingers off of them and the paint will last forever. The only issue I've had with mine kept in sealed plastic display cases from hobby lobby is that the clear will turn yellow after a while no matter what. I too have very little experience with urethane or acrylic, but my 96 F150 still has it's shine (no clear though) and it's only been out of it's box a hand full of times in the past 2 decades, to replace broken mirrors and such.

According to their official FAQ at http://www.zero-paints.com/faq.html

What type of Paints are they?
The paints supplied are called "Acrylic Basecoats" these can be Solid, Metallic, Mica, Pearl or Candy colours depending on the finish.

at http://www.zero-paints.com/downloads/ you can find more information and I think the answer to your question must be in it.

I just know that cars are not painted with them anymore.

But it isn't anything to do with any failing on the paint type.
It's more to do with that more modern polyurethane paints are more weather resistant and more hard wearing.

Any dulling of paint is probably down to environmental effects and how you handle/store/protect your model more than the paint used.
It's why I use resin polishes and wax over my models.

With regards to the solvent issue.
There was a move from solvent based acrylic lacquers to water based lacquers because of health risks from industrial use of solvent based paint. Again, this move wasn't because of any quality related failing of the paint itself.

One thing that was mentioned to me is that if you wipe laquer paint with thinner it disolves it easily. While urethane does not get affected immediately.

Not sure why you mention this.
(poly)urethane paints are not affected by (acrylic lacquer) thinners because well, they're just not.
The paint types work/cure/behave differently and once a polyurethane coating has cured it is very chemical resistant.
But then again so what and is it actually a good thing?
How about if you want or need to strip the paint?

If I can get a color in Tamiya TS I use that just for convenience. One day I was final polishing the TS-16 (yellow) and my fingernail somehow chipped a chunk of the paint off a sharp corner and it wasn't an adhesion issue. Bottom line that paint can be brittle. Now I shoot a thin 2K clear over the base color regardless of type because of it's durability and quick cure time. I can be a bit of a klutz sometimes. I have dropped car bodies on concrete while polishing them and it doesn't even leave a mark! As far as stripping screw-ups, luckily I've never needed to. Clear is fairly easy to shoot if you thin it right. My screw-ups usually happen in the color coat.

Any dulling of paint is probably down to environmental effects and how you handle/store/protect your model more than the paint used.
It's why I use resin polishes and wax over my models.

This is something I always do. I use the same products I use on my car (Menzerna, pinnacle etc). My kits are in a glass curio that does get some sun at a certain part of the day if the curtains are open. The kits I am reffering to I painted 6 months ago. It would be a totally undrstandable if the cars were 5+ years old.

I guess I will try other products to see how it goes. thanks for the replies

Zero paints are automotive acrylics not lacquers. I built my Tamiya Hayabusa on the forum back in 2007 using Zero paints throughout, including the Zero 2K urethane clear coat. It's been kept in a glass cabinet ever since and I can honestly say that it looks as good as the day it was painted. No yellowing has occurred and the shine is still incredible and like glass...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/stevenoble/Hayabusa-Finisheddaytimeoutdoors013-1.jpg

there is one more point of confusion here with terms for paint.
technically, they're all lacquers.
acrylic lacquer
enamal lacquer
polyurethane lacquer

that's also part of the reason for my slightly sarcastic first post; because it sounds like whoever you were talking to didn't really know what he was talking about.

i pretty much paint exclusively with tamiya ts paints these are labelled as a synthetic lacquer and i've not had any of my models get dull even after 5+ years.
i also occasionally halfords (our local auto store) automotive and hycote acrylics also labelled as lacquers.
according to your shop keeper, they should be getting dull being lacquers.

that's also part of the reason for my slightly sarcastic first post; because it sounds like whoever you were talking to didn't really know what he was talking about.


Maybe he is the same as the guy at my local paint store who told me he had never heard of urethane clear coat, then promptly sold me some 2K urethane clear coat and hardener. For fecks sake it was written on the side of the can 'urethane' some of those people who work in those stores know nothing about paints...

Just to clarify something haha. All I asked the person was why my paint got dull over time. He said laquers do that. One thing that has to be clear is that "acrylic" simply means the paint is flexible. So an acrylic base does not say much since it could be latex, waterborne, laquer etc. So it could be as simple as the pact that the clears I've used are Dupont out of a spray can.

And the fact is that all the laquers I have used have lost some of their sheen. Therefore I will be getting away from laquer all together as far as cars go. I would be glad to try zero paints clear and other products, but in the end I can get more for my buck buying locally.

Thank you for your thoughts. It's really cool to be part of an active community. Keep on building while I keep destroying cars :icon16:

This is something I always do. I use the same products I use on my car (Menzerna, pinnacle etc). My kits are in a glass curio that does get some sun at a certain part of the day if the curtains are open. The kits I am reffering to I painted 6 months ago.

6 months?
I seriously doubt that paint would lose colour/shine over 6 months and i would question your method before questioning the product.

i) what are you using
ii) how are you applying it
iii) what, if you are, do you thin the paint with
iv) how flat/smooth is your primer
v) how do you sand your paint
vi) how flat/smooth is your paint
vii) what clear do you use
viii) how thick is your primer/paint/clear

got any photos of your painting process?
got any before/after shots of the paint in question?

this was painted beginning of 2007 and it still pretty much looks like it does now.
http://x09.xanga.com/f79f816a55335272973054/w217684946.jpg
Tamiya TS-08 out of the can.


The black one here was painted mid 2006 and pretty much left to collect dust but after a wash, this was taken.http://xaf.xanga.com/42af805751635272647269/w217434504.jpg

I really don't get how paint can become dull after 6 months, especially as you say they're kept in a glass case.
Just how much sun are they getting because I also have some models sitting on my window ledge and well again, no dulling there either.

So I was at a local outomotive paint supply store today. I went in looking for urethane clear since I want to move in that direction. What the gentleman there told me left me sad/angry/disappointed. And As he told me it made sense why my kits have started to look "dull" after some time. He said that laquers never stop evaporating/releasing fumes. As a consequence it starts to look faded/dull, even if clear coated with urethane :shakehead

So I started thinking of how I wasted so much time painting/polishing my kits that will look dull in time:banghead:. And believe me it has not taken long. This brings me to my current dilemma.

I wondering if Zero Paints is a laquer product since I have a jar of Rosso Scuderia I was planing on using. This is so sad and pushes me more in the direction of scifi ships so that I can get away from this mess. Painting cars is going to get really expensive if I do this. Paint, weather and seal all with acrylic products. Awesome!

Thanks for your input

dewpont acrylic enamel is what my dad uses or did use when we ran a body shop i just called him and ask to make for sure.

6 months?
I seriously doubt that paint would lose colour/shine over 6 months and i would question your method before questioning the product.

i) what are you using
ii) how are you applying it
iii) what, if you are, do you thin the paint with
iv) how flat/smooth is your primer
v) how do you sand your paint
vi) how flat/smooth is your paint
vii) what clear do you use
viii) how thick is your primer/paint/clear

got any photos of your painting process?
got any before/after shots of the paint in question?

this was painted beginning of 2007 and it still pretty much looks like it does now.
http://x09.xanga.com/f79f816a55335272973054/w217684946.jpg
Tamiya TS-08 out of the can.


The black one here was painted mid 2006 and pretty much left to collect dust but after a wash, this was taken.http://xaf.xanga.com/42af805751635272647269/w217434504.jpg

I really don't get how paint can become dull after 6 months, especially as you say they're kept in a glass case.
Just how much sun are they getting because I also have some models sitting on my window ledge and well again, no dulling there either.


Drunken I use Tamiya fine surface primer and/or Duplicolor primer. Colors have been Tamiya lately. I wet sand primer and clear. For clear I pretty much have used Duplicolor since their cans are easy to obtain. I am thinking its the clear, not the color since I end up with a nice finish after I polish. I am a painter by trade so I totally understand the importance of pre-work. So I know its not that. If it was my work, I would not be able to polish the paint well and flaws in the primer/paint would show.

At the bottom of this page you will find my last finished oaint job:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1059547&page=2

Perhaps you didn't wait long enough for the base coat to dry before applying clear. It happened to my F430 Challenge model. The tri-color was painted in the order of white, red and black, followed by clear. The entire body was sanded and polished to a mirror-like finish, but a few month later, only the black part got dull while the white and red part kept the original sheen. So my guess is that white and red areas were thoroughly dry at the time the clear was applied, but the black was still drying and not ready for clear yet.

Perhaps you didn't wait long enough for the base coat to dry before applying clear.

Never thought of that.
I don't clear over tamiya ts colours as it's not necessary so my paint is always exposed to air and because of how long it takes for me to paint the body to actually finishing the bits underneath it, the paint will always be guaranteed to be fully cured.

Note about how these paints tend to work (from what I've read over several sites about automotive paint)
Mostly it's about the solvents in the paint escaping leaving the paint film but once this stage is over, the paint also absorbs oxygen from the air in order for it to fully cure and develop the "hardness" of the paint.
That would suggest that if you've cleared before the solvents have fully escaped, the paint isn't developed fully.
If you've waited until you can't smell any solvent it isn't guaranteed that the paint has had enough time to absorb enough oxygen, so it is also still not fully developed.

I'll go back to your mentioning of colour going dull after 6 months.
Back when these paints were common use over real cars, paint did not go dull after months so something is definitely wrong and it probably isn't the base colour lacquer.

What lacquer are you using?
What's the typical time frame of your priming/painting/clearing?

What lacquer are you using?
What's the typical time frame of your priming/painting/clearing?

Duplicolor. Usually I paint a day or two after I prime. I have primed, painter, cleared in one day also without any problems. I think it was just one of thos things on this particular car. In any case my biggest concern was whether zero paints are laquer or not since it is not recommended to put urethane over laquer. And I have been really wanting to use urethane clear.

The reason why the use of dissimilar types of paint is discouraged is because the rate and magnitude of shrinkage is different between them. Also, urethane clear is hard but also brittle, so it might crack if the base coat is too soft. But if you wait for the base coat to dry long enough (like a few weeks), then acrylic lacquer layer should be hard enough for urethane clear coat. At least I haven't had any problem using urethane clear over acrylic lacquer like Tamiya TS spray, Mr. Color, Finisher's etc.

In any case my biggest concern was whether zero paints are lacquer or not since it is not recommended to put urethane over lacquer. And I have been really wanting to use urethane clear.

If you are using the Zero basecoat paints you won't have any problems with using 2K clear over the top of them. They are designed to be used together.. Nearly all of my recent builds are painted with them and none have had any adverse reactions and they look as good as the day they were painted :smile:

Therefore I will be getting away from laquer all together as far as cars go.:icon16:

Tell the truth, most likely you already have. There's a lot of confusion about the term "lacquer" - especially the spelling! There's no consistency about terminology; even paint manufacturers' websites don't use old terms like lacquer and enamel. But in most states (and countries, for that matter), traditional lacquers ("nitrocellulose") can't be sold legally because of their high VOC content. If you're using Tamiya spray-can "lacquers," you're actually painting with synthetic lacquers.

Most new cars are painted with urethanes. They require a two-stage process, consisting of a basecoat and a clearcoat. Most urethanes, whether clear or pigmented, come in a 2-part (2K) kit, consisting of pigment (or clear) and a catalyst, also called hardener or activator. These two parts have to be mixed just before they're applied. While 2K urethanes paints are better than lacquers for the atmosphere, they are very hard on lungs. Use a respirator!

Hot Rod Magazine has a good article on 1:1 painting trends and technology. It's on line at http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0808_paint_tecnology_trends/index.html

Some modelers - like me - paint their cars with 1K urethane automotive touch-up paints. These can be topcoated with a clear synthetic lacquer, like Tamiya TS-13 or U-POL Powercan. Or with a 2K clear.

If you're using a 2-stage base/clearcoat process, durability isn't much affected by the base coat, because it's protected by the clear coat.

So the clear is what counts. For maximum gloss, maximum durability, low cost and general availability, you can't beat 2K urethane clearcoat from PPG, Glasurit or Dupont.

You can get these at an automotive paint supplier, the place where body shops buy their stuff.

Whew! I hope that helps.

Thanks! Finally someone explains the 'lacquer' word!

By the way, what does 1K mean, while 2K means "2-part kit"?

k = komponent.
1k = single element paint
2k = double element paint i.e colour (or clear) and catalyst.

I am always thinking about 2k = 2000 ... :P

Is it true that for a plain color 2k, there is no necessary for a clear coating? But for metal/pearl color, normally we coat a clear layer on that?

I have used Zero's 2K clear over both zero basecoats and Tamiya TS paints for years with no problems and no dulling issues after painting. I usually thin the clear slightly more than what Hiroboy states with a little extra thinner to allow for better flow characteristics here in Arizona. It is very hot and if mixed as directed by Hiroboy it dries to quickly for the ambient temperature here. I like the 2K urethane clears and find that they polish up nicely if you give them time to cure before attempting to polish - I also put a protective coat of wax on the paint and I've had no dulling of the sheen ever - including models that are 7+ years old. Original "true" lacquers were very thin and required 20-30 coats of paint on real 1:1 objects like cars. They then needed to be rubbed out after curing. I have been painting real cars-motorcycles and models for about 30 years now and have yet to encounter your problem. One thing I have learned about paint is that it is a "Chemical" process and mixing different brands or systems is generally not recommended - not that it cannot be done, but the results are what they are should there be any incompatibility in the chemistry of the paints - solvent - clears used. Regardless of the type of paint used - COPD is nothing to laugh at - ALWAYS wear an industrial respirator. You only have 2 lungs and in general they are not replaceable. If you would like to discuss more about paint systems you can PM me directly and I will be happy to share any knowledge I have acquired over the decades of painting. Hope this has helped you - John

For a long time, it seemed impossible to get 2K clears in small quantities, except by mail order. But a short while back I saw pint kits at my local FinishMasters (a chain that caters to body shops). I hope they keep stocking them. Not only would that benefit modelers, it would help out the magic dent removal guys.

The urethane basecoats (color) dry to a satin sheen, not a gloss. That's why they require clear coating. There are also modern three-part FX systems that use a colored clear. I think it's sort of like the old Kandy Apple method - way beyond my skill level.

Having never heard that you shouldn't put 2K urethane over "lacquer," it's never been a problem for me. Sort of like that old thing about bees.

Automotive people will tell you that paint manufacturers don't recommend thinning 2K clear. That's because of a durability issue that comes into play in Arctic and Saharan climates. No worries, unless you're planning to enter your kit in the Dakar Rally, which is now being run at various locations in South America and Europe (starting soon!), the roads in North Africa having become a bit problematic.

Some people use regular lacquer thinner to thin urethanes. LC caused my paint to curdle one time, so now I use BASF UR40 medium-temp reducer.