throttle body spacer?

Im wondering what improvement the throttle body spacer does? Would it be a smart thing to get if you lived in a state with cold weather?

I'm driving a 97 grand prix gt vin k 4dr sedan. 137000 miles.

Any recommendations on cheap mods to improve horsepower. Already installed a k & n air filter into stock filter box.

From what i hear, they are worthless.. You could do it if you want though. I hear that they are great if you're planning on installing nitrous.

:werd:

Nothing to be gained on a basically stock NA SI 3800 engine. The supercharged L67 SII 3800 engine is a different story. The spacer helps reduce knock retard (KR) due to the heat generated by the supercharger and passed on to the throttle body.

If you live in a cold state forget it. The spacer blocks coolant flow through your throttle body which could ice up as you are driving. Not worth an accident. Even on the supercharged 3800 motors, I don't think the performance gains are anything to write home about.

the spacer does work depending on the setup and driving style. I have one on my jeep grand cherokee and gainded about 2 mpg. I dont know where the coolant being blocked comment is coming from because thats not the case on the jeep. yes i do own a grand prix. I have to find it, but there is a webpage that says do not use a spacer on a sc engine, even though they sell them.

I have to find it, but there is a webpage that says do not use a spacer on a sc engine, even though they sell them.

I'd like to see that because I disagree with that. I've used one for well over 8 years on my GTP.

The spacer if used on a NA or SC SII/III 3800 engine will block coolant going to the throttle body. You may or may not get driveability or emissions issues depending on where you live. Climate, weather, etc.

Spacers do nothing.

The theory behind throttle body spacers was trying to get the air to swirl going into the lower intake. Old school carbed vehicles had success with spacers because the carb was the upper intake and the air got a swirl going into the lower intake with fuel mixed in.

On a TB vehicle it canNOT work. It has to pass thru the upper intake and all the runners first, then proceed into the lower intake. The "swirl" is gone by the time it get fuel injected into it.

The things are bunk and junk.

Spacers do nothing.

The theory behind throttle body spacers was trying to get the air to swirl going into the lower intake. Old school carbed vehicles had success with spacers because the carb was the upper intake and the air got a swirl going into the lower intake with fuel mixed in.

On a TB vehicle it canNOT work. It has to pass thru the upper intake and all the runners first, then proceed into the lower intake. The "swirl" is gone by the time it get fuel injected into it.

The things are bunk and junk.



Not sure what you are talking about....swirling???? On the supercharged grand prixs the spacer provides additional protection from knock retard. It helps keep the throttlebody cooler by blocking the coolant passage and moving it away from the supercharger , which gets extremely hot.

hey BOB or Tim, have you guys heard of any cases of the throttle body freezing up from the spacer? I live outside of cleveland, I have the spacer but I have not put it on yet. I have not heard of this issue.

That theory doesn't work. The air is heated when its compressed by the supercharger much more than the coolant would ever make it.

here read this

http://www.zzperformance.com/downloads/Throttle_Body_Spacer_Study.pdf

I don't have the attention span to read 6 pages. There is no way the spacer can help cool in the incoming air more than it will be heated by the supercharger. I know exactly what blocked coolant passages do and the answer is nada.

You want a cooler intake charge? Get a intercooler.

And cooling the TB itself isn't going to reduce knock because all it does is restrict the amount of air getting to the engine/supercharger. Keeping it cooler will not even reduce the incoming air temperature. It might keep it the same as when it came in thru the air filter for a millisecond, then it starts to be compressed by the supercharger. Compression of that air then creates heat.

There was a company in the 3000GT/Stealth world that offered a TB spacer on its website for a mere 10 hours. They took massive heat for even thinking about selling a product that has been proven bunk many times. After a huge beatdown on another forum, they promptly removed it.

Good post rick and good read. The data on page 5 was good enough for me. See below. My '97 GTP is too old for an intercooler and I'm satisfied with its performance as is. :lol:

BTW - Also, I run the ZZP 72mm ported throttle body and my Eaton M90 Gen 3 blower is S ported. The SC pulley is 3.0". IMO it doesn't hurt and everything helps. It is not just one mod but the totality considered together. :wink:


The throttle body’s temperature dropped an incredible 69°F!!! Not bad for an inexpensive easy to install bolt-on product.

The most impressive finding to me wasn’t the temperature of the throttle body but the temperature of the supercharger. The heat gains to the air through the throttle body must have been significant prior to adding the spacer. We dropped the supercharger body temperature by approximately 29 degrees Fahrenheit! This should greatly reduce knock in our quest for high performance, and allow us to put more power to the wheels on those hot summer days at the drag strip.

hey BOB or Tim, have you guys heard of any cases of the throttle body freezing up from the spacer?

Nope. Not to my knowledge. If anything will cause the TB butterfly to stick it won't be the cold weather and lack of cooling bypass into the throttle body. Just good ole carbon as usual and lack of maintenance.

This is all I could find on freezing but just anecdotal info.

Click here (http://www.ehow.com/about_5924887_throttle-body-myths.html)


Throttles in Cold Weather

Some throttle bodies are equipped with lines for coolant bypass. These were put into place by manufacturers like Dodge in case there was a danger of throttles freezing in cold weather. There have not actually been any reports of throttle bodies freezing in cold weather, and nearly all throttle bodies have been tested in sub-freezing conditions to make sure they still operate without flaws.

BTW - Funny how he mentions Dodge 'cause obviously GM does it too. :lol:

Throttle bodies and inlet manifolds are heated in order warm the intake air which is done for two reasons:

1, Warm air supports smaller fuel droplets, which helps produce a better burn in the combustion chamber.

2, Prevents ice building up in very cold climates.




The effects of throttle body spacers vary greatly by engine, type of spacer and what the intentions are.

Some are advertised as a way of increasing intake length, and therefore increasing torque.
This is total BS. While intake length does effect power and torque delivery, you need to do more than just fit a spacer.

Some are advertised as being able to make everything better by altering the airflow through the intake.
Again, these are total BS.


Then you get more engine specific spacers that may do things like allow you to run a different size throttle body, or alter the affect of coolant flow through the throttle body and inlet manifold etc. Some of these work, some don't.


However, as a general rule, throttle body spacers of any kind are junk and best avoided.
The exceptions will have some sound reasoning and well reviews tests to support them.

Some are advertised as a way of increasing intake length, and therefore increasing torque.
This is total BS. While intake length does effect power and torque delivery, you need to do more than just fit a spacer.

Some are advertised as being able to make everything better by altering the airflow through the intake.
Again, these are total BS.

:confused:

I haven't seen any advertisements specifically related to any L67 SII 3800 or L32 SIII 3800 engines as to what you are saying above. Many of us with modded L67 or L32 engines use the TB spacer from ZZP which has been available and advertised for several years. This is their claim (see link below) and all it mentions is to help isolate the supercharger from the throttle body among one of the reasons.

Click here (http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=225&catid=113)

Also, this spacer allows you to adapt a ported 72mm throttle body versus having to grind on the supercharger inlet. I use the Stage 1 Ported 72mm Throttle Body from ZZP.


A throttle body spacer will insulate your TB from the heat of the supercharger. Keeping your TB cool will help keep your intake temperatures down thus reducing KR and increasing HP potential. The inlet is 72mm to work great with our ported throttlebodies.



The exceptions will have some sound reasoning and well reviews tests to support them.

Good point! I'll stick with the exception.

Here's another one from 3800Performance.com. See link below. Basically a similar advertisement. Another possible compelling reason to use the spacer is to help keep heat from damaging the MAF sensor which is obviously located in the center of the Hitachi throttle body versus out in the intake before the throttle body inlet like many other cars. It is a well known fact that MAF sensor failure is a common problem on our L67 and L36 engines.

Click here (http://www.3800performance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=TB-SPACER&Category_Code=AI&Product_Count=1)


The MAP Engineering Throttle Body Spacer is made from 3/4” thick automotive grade phenolic that helps reduce incoming intake air temperatures by isolating the throttle body from the heated supercharger. Keeping your throttle body cool will help keep your intake temperatures down thus reducing knock retard and increasing horsepower potential. It also keeps the heat away from the delicate MAF electronics, located in the middle of the throttle body, which will help in extending the life and reliability of the sensor.

The throttle body spacer is CNC machined for precise measurements, and the hole in the spacer is machined to exact stock throttle body outlet size. The coolant passages going into the throttle body are purposely blocked to prevent the hot coolant from entering the throttle body and heating it up any further, which will also help in keeping the air inlet temperatures down.

Not sure what you are talking about....swirling???? On the supercharged grand prixs the spacer provides additional protection from knock retard. It helps keep the throttlebody cooler by blocking the coolant passage and moving it away from the supercharger , which gets extremely hot.

hey BOB or Tim, have you guys heard of any cases of the throttle body freezing up from the spacer? I live outside of cleveland, I have the spacer but I have not put it on yet. I have not heard of this issue.

I've never used one, My throttle froze up a couple times in the cold weather without it. I just had to idle the motor long enough to heat up the butterfly and wait.

It would be interesting to see someone dyno without one and then add one and dyno again to check real world horsepower gain and lay this thread to rest. Too many people are butting heads on this one.:banghead:

Why not Tim? I thought you purchased and installed the same ZZP Stage 1 Ported 72mm Throttle body I have. Remember the stock L67 TB is around 69mm versus 72mm. So you have a 3mm mismatch between TB output to supercharger input.

I thought the test rick provided was fairly good and some proof. Better than speculating or just providing an unfounded opinion. The source was ZZP. How about a knock retard (KR) test? When I tuned my GTP back in 2006-2007 and made my highest ETs at the track I ran several KR tests with Autotap and an Aeroforce Scanner. Well below acceptable levels (less than 1 degree) but that was after the spacer and the ZZP 72mm throttle body. I recall it was a 2 degree drop. I had issues with a range of 2-4 degrees of various KR popping in. Also, I have a Thrasher CAI but had the KR issue well before the other intake mods. And of course exhaust mods help reduce or eliminate KR so both ends need to be looked at in the total equation.

I have not seen or read anything bad about the spacer so far, nothing but opinions. even if the spacer provides the smallest amount of help, then in the pontiac world it is worth it. I do not know about how it would or would not help dodge and truthfully I do not care, we are talking about the Grand Prix in this forum.

I wish they had ported throttle bodys for the drive by wire, hopefully someone will work on that soon.

So rick to install or not to install? In other words are you going to install yours? And I agree every little bit helps on mods. Important thing on an auto forum is to get both sides of the story out and in the end let the person be the final judge. Also, I agree the info and experience(s) should be specific to the car make/model represented in this specific forum.

Speaking of spacers for the NA 3800 engines I see PFYC has one from AirAid available. See link. I first heard about AirAid spacers from a friend with a Toyota Tundra but was skeptical about it. Interesting design and concept though.

Click here (http://www.pfyc.com/GP3014.html)

Any comments or opinions? :dunno:

Dyno tested? Tim....are you there? :lol:


PowerAid accomplishes this by spacing the throttle body one inch and adding a dyno-proven Helix style bore. As the intake air passes through the spacer, the Helix bore creates a vortex action that improves atomization creating a more complete combustion and an efficiently burning engine. The results are improved driveability and increased fuel efficiency. The PowerAid spacer is 50 state legal, will not void your warranty.

Yeah I am going to install it. That AirAid spacer says it is for the NA only. weird. It's a lot of money, but it is an interesting design. It may have been the one stealth was talking about? The ad says it creates a vortex.

That AirAid one is one of the ones I was talking about. They cannot work due to the reasons I posted.

There's more than just the AirAid brand. Add Jet and Taylor plus a few others not worth listing.

Here is the Taylor version for the NA SII 3800 engines VIN "K'. Checkout the claims on torque and HP. Hard to believe.

Click here (http://www.throttlebodyspacer.com/product/SPE-38025---7.html)


Just look at these features:

Delivers up to 22 HP and 25 ft. lbs. of torque
Boost gas mileage by up to 4 MPG
T-6061 aluminum construction
Easy bolt-on installation in approximately 45 minutes
Tested on SuperFlow air bench and DynoJet
50-state street legal (CARB #D516-2)

Note: There is one major design difference between the NA and Supercharged 3800 engines. The fuel injectors on the NA are located in the LIM port runners where the injectors for the SC version are directly on the cylinder head combustion chamber area but hard to say if that is a factor.

I guess I'm going to have to get off the crapper and do some procurement and testing on the wife's Regal. :lol:


PDF on Taylor Installation (http://www.throttlebodyspacer.com/instructions/38025.pdf)

That is very hard to believe. I would like to see the actual dyno sheets. it says up to 20 hp, so that means 0.0001 to 20hp gain. LOL. That one looks like it has holes drilled in it to allow the coolant to flow through. Looks like it is high quality. Is that one for the supercharged engine? I did not see anything but 99-05 for the years.

That AirAid one is one of the ones I was talking about. They cannot work due to the reasons I posted.




Yip, and there are some good threads in the engineering technical forum that go into even more detail.

These devices are total crap, and more likely to harm power output than do any good.





With regard to a spacer for the S/C 3800 engines, then it does make sense. If the blower is bolted directly to the throttle body then there will be some heat transfer.
An insulated spacer could help here to reduce temps in the throttle body.
Although I would question how much it works, and for how long, remember there is a lot of heat in an engine bay.

On a naturally aspirated car of course it would have no effect what so ever :smokin:

Is that one for the supercharged engine? I did not see anything but 99-05 for the years.


No rick. NA 3800 only. I'm going to contact Taylor to see if they will fess up one for free/reduced cost and testing. Without independent Dyno testing hard to say but easy to check to see if there are any fuel economy gains as claimed. This is the same reputable Taylor Cable that makes the Spiro Pro 8mm ignition wires many use. I have them in our Olds Alero.

....Dyno tested? Tim....are you there? :lol:

Now I am. What can I do for you Bob?

With regard to a spacer for the S/C 3800 engines, then it does make sense. If the blower is bolted directly to the throttle body then there will be some heat transfer.

Yes it is directly bolted to the SC inlet. Consider not just the heat in an engine bay overall but heat generated specifically by the supercharger and when you run undersize pulleys for more boost. It gets hotter than hell and you could fry an egg on it. The engine coolant temperatures go up. Especially after a few 1/4 mile passes trying to take home the trophy or win some dinero.

If you have a re-programmed PCM from ZZP, Intense or DHP, etc. what helps is the two cooling fans are programmed to turn on and run up to 2 minutes even with ignition to OFF and the fan turn on point with the engine running 180 degrees F or even 160 degrees F.

Also, I've seen people ice down their superchargers between runs.