HSV Commodore

This is an Australian built car, based on the Vauxhall Omega (I think).
It's built to take on the M5 and is generally a much rawer alternative, kind of a sized-up TVR.. it's a very powerful car and entertaining to drive.
has no one heard of it???

cheers
jay

Here it is

and again...

Looks a little like the Vauxhall/Lotus Carlton, no?

cheers
jay

Isn't it a Holden (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/f851/)? ;)

moved

Yes, HSV is the performance branch of Holden. Holden Special Vehicles, I believe....

Yes HSV is Holden Special Vehicles.

No its not based on any Vauxhall, its a separate vehicle in its own right.

HSV commodores use a 5.7l Chev V8 tuned in some guises up to 300kw

Over sized whale.. slow

Good cruiser and family car though.

Driven by people with large mullets down here in New Zealand :D

Originally posted by GTS-4 Ben
Over sized whale.. slow

Good cruiser and family car though.

Driven by people with large mullets down here in New Zealand :D

AKA Westies!

But the new Holdens are awesome. The GTS 300kw and that new Ute that puts out 350kW - stock standard and rear wheel drive. You can get much more fun than that!:smoker2:

Originally posted by AWD Primera


AKA Westies!

But the new Holdens are awesome. The GTS 300kw and that new Ute that puts out 350kW - stock standard and rear wheel drive. You can get much more fun than that!:smoker2:

A 350kw ute, yeah thats gonna have alot of traction :D

that looks pretty good..... why don't we get it in North America :mad: we don't get anything :angryfire

seriously, what good car do we get that you don't get?

Sorry, didnt notice the Holden forum..
Driven by people with large mullets down here in New Zealand
LOL!:D :D

And yeah, it is based on a Vauxhall/Opel. HSV and Vauxhall are both owned by American giant GM. But here's the proof.
CAR Magazine, Aug2000 issue
the HSV Commodore GTS-R's roots are in rebadged Opel Kommodors... Once past the gold medallion garishness, Cavalier/Carlton cues are evident

there you have it. I was right about it being an Opel/Vauxhall in disguise, but wrong about which model. (Who cares, all vauxhalls are cr*p!) I've yet to see one but they're supposed to be pretty wild.....
cheers
jay

Easy... you list me the good cars (leave out the obvious ferrari, porsche etc...) you get and i'll tell you which we have and which we don't.. there arent that many american cars on offer in the Uk or mainland Europe, so i dont know what we're missing out on.

cheers
jay

we don't make any good cars that you don't get :D
Most of the ones that you don't have there... you actually do have just re-badged under a different company

basically the only sportscars we make are Corvette and Viper. Luxury Cadillac and Lincoln

We get the Viper and 'vette over here but i've only ever seen one Viper, there arent that many 'vettes around either... i see maybe one a month... both nice cars, but i dont think the Viper is very suited to the roads we have over here...
though if you offered me one i wouldnt say no.. :D
Ive attached a pic of a rather nice Viper. Were GTS-R's sold or was it just a concept?
cheers
jay

That's the 2003 Viper... that's what it's gunna look like :D

The Commodore has a Buick (3.8 V6) or Chev (5.7 V8) engine and IS built on an Omega platform........Is it true the the new VY Commodore is going to replace the Omega in the UK????????????

WOW.. all i can say is the new viper looks like the most evil thing i've ever seen!! and i thought they wouldnt be able to better the original styling... silly me :)
cheers
jay

Yeah, the Commodore is really nice. Car and Driver said the only reason it lost to the M5 (they did a comparison test) was because of cheaper and crappier interior materials. But they loved the seats!

And CrazyJay, the only cars I can think of that we get and you dont rignt now are Panoz, Mosler, Saleen, and Acuras. But I would gladly trade (except mosler) for Elise's, HSV's, VX220's, etc.

The thing that really get me, though, is that we have the Catera, which is based on the Commodore, so it would be super-easy to certify it for American sale, but dumb GM wont give us it :(

quote from Jimmy_11_cars

"The Commodore ... IS built on an Omega platform"


Oh really? You seem very sure about this.

So tell me, which parts are shared between the current Holden & Opel? Or even interchangable?
What critical dimensions do they share, as in track, wheelbase, length, height, width etc?

Look at the VW golf, Audi TT, old A4, VW Jetta/Bora, VW Beetle. All of those are based on the same platform, no matter how different they may seem. Wheelbases are different, widths are different, but they are the same basic cars. And the 5.7L V8 in HSV's are in Camaros and Corvettes. So a car doesnt have to be exactly the same to be closely related.

I think he's an angry Holden owner refusing to believe his car is in any way related to an Omega! LOL :D

cheers
jay

The only interchangable parts the Holden has with the omega is the door handles and i think the handles in the car to rest your arm and that's it.
The holden is longer, wider and taller. There might be a good resemblence with the omega but it aint the same car.

The reason commodores arent sold in the US is that the fuel tank isn't in front of the rear axle. But don't worry the 2005 replacement will have this rectafied for the US market.

Oh and that 6.2 litre 350kW will be put to use but it won't be in the GTS. Can you guess what (with four doors):)

Chris: Thanks for your explanation but I DO understand the relevance of those VW Group vehicles (Beetle, Skoda et al) sharing the same floorpan and basic structural architecture - although that Holden use US-sourced powertrains is irrelevant to my post.

However Chris even Holden's basic structural components are NOT shared with the Omega. Holden has spent 23 years evolving the Commodore away from the original unsuitable 1978 European design and their subsequent lousy rehashes, albeit closely following general Opel styling themes. Please note that the floorpan is distinct. The front chassis rails are of a completely different design. And on it goes. There are NO common structural parts whatsoever shared between these otherwise visually similar vehicles. The similarity is superficial.

Nor indeed, as Downunder courteously points out, do they share ANY parts in common, either externally, mechanically etc, save for a scant few generic GM bits. So it is erroneous in fact to label it as merely a platform variation, or the bold yet bogus claim by Jimmy_11_cars that it "IS built on an Omega platform".

We aussies have grown accustomed to the jealousy such as is exhibited by some kiwis (who are othwerise our friends) on this board in that they do not enjoy an automotive manufacturing industry in their fine country, and are reduced to chasing sheep whilst wearing oversize gumboots ...
... hoping perhaps for that 'special' interlude :licker:

Crazyzajay: I am not angry. Rather dissappointed that a fellow enthusiast would cite a throwaway quote from a pissant Eurocentric magazine as 'proof'. This quote tells me more about the Kwality of 'Car Magazine' than any facts about Holdens. You should realise this, and also hopefully begin to accept that the Australian Automotive Industry has not only the long-held capacity of car manufacture .. but design as well.

Next you'll be claiming that the 1979 XD Falcon is really of british design, and uses the platform of the almost identical yet thoroughly decrepit Ford Granada!

I think its time to send an e-mail to Holden and Opel. Off I go...

OK, I sent my queries off to HSV and Opel, and got 2 separate answers (both from Vauxhaul, the parent company, just under GM.) Here they are:

Dear Mr ------ Name omitted for my secrutiy ;)

Thank you for your recent E-mail inquiry.

Our Technical Department has confirmed that the Commodore does share the same
platform as the Omega.

I hope this clarifies this matter for you.

Thank you again for contacting the Customer Care Centre.

Yours sincerely

Karen Quinn
Customer Service manager


And



Dear Sir/madam

Thank you for your E-mail regarding our Vauxhall vehicles.

I have taken the opportunity to consult our Technical Department who have
confirmed that the HSV Commodore is based on the Vauxhall Omega.

Many thanks for contacting us, I hope that this information settles your
debate.


Regards
Amanda Addison
Customer Service Manager





SO thats it, I was right :D

the Commodore does share the same
platform as the Omega.

Well it may share the same platform but doesn't mean they are the same cars. Look at the new Jaguar X type it's platform is the Ford Mondeo but they share no parts except for the 4wd system i think.
The Omega platform has been stretched and widened. So there are many cars in the world which share the same platform such as the new GM platform that will be shared with Alfa Romeo, Saab, GM, the Omega and Commodore i think.

Crazyzajay: I am not angry. Rather dissappointed that a fellow enthusiast would cite a throwaway quote from a pissant Eurocentric magazine as 'proof'. This quote tells me more about the Kwality of 'Car Magazine' than any facts about Holdens. You should realise this, and also hopefully begin to accept that the Australian Automotive Industry has not only the long-held capacity of car manufacture .. but design as well.

first of all, its crayzayjay, not crazyzajay.
second of all, you shouldnt feel so offended by what i wrote, it was just a bit of banter, i have nothing against the Commodore, quite the opposite.
finally, i was merely stating facts about the Holden to enlighten people who have never heard of the car. as it happens, the (correct) statement I made was challenged by you so i obviously found it appropriate to quote a well known car magazine which i am sure is more resourceful than both of us put together. this proved my point, which has further been backed up by someone who is more resourceful than me and actually wrote to the car comps. this eurocentric car magazine also rated the car extremely highly so id love to know what you think of that.

From what i have gathered at your reply, you seem somewhat insecure at the thought that your car shares its platform with an Omega, which i find unnecessary and was not something I intended to invoke. In addition to that, you also defend the australian car industry when i did not even mention it.

Next you'll be claiming that the 1979 XD Falcon is really of british design, and uses the platform of the almost identical yet thoroughly decrepit Ford Granada!

theres really no need to say that, i dont know anything about the 79 Falcon and quite frankly i dont particularly want to make any statement about it (which is what forums are about correct me if im wrong) if it is going to spin off some long argument.

so to end things off on a high, i have done more research and found that the HSV Commodore is actually a re-bodied F40.

cheers
jay

Look at this way, if you like: The Opel is based on the Commodore:)

Originally posted by Chris
Look at this way, if you like: The Opel is based on the Commodore:)
Yeah you could do that, but the Opel is older than the Commodore

Hrmm 350kw.. When are they gonna stop 500kw?!?!

The Fuel Consumption with normal cruising should be interesting but...

Still nothing like a terbs which has excellent fuel consumption when cruising..

Originally posted by Thunda Downunda

We aussies have grown accustomed to the jealousy such as is exhibited by some kiwis (who are othwerise our friends) on this board in that they do not enjoy an automotive manufacturing industry in their fine country, and are reduced to chasing sheep whilst wearing oversize gumboots ...

Killing our local car industry was the best thing that happened to us, our cars are among the cheapest in the world and we get most foriegn cars 6 months before you Aussies do:licker:

New Zealand is too small to have a successful car maker. We used to have assembly plants that only survived through government tarrifs. Take any 1st year economics paper and youll realise that these are not efficient.

We have among the cheapest 2nd hand cars in the world, this unfortunately means we also have among the highest rates of depreciation in the world.

At least we arn't forced to think of Hyundai's and Holden Geminis as Cool cars :biggrin2:

Ahh, you ruined it:(

i dont see what the big deal is... some of my favourite cars share their platform with other "lesser" cars, and my all time fave shares it with a dodgy 70's FIAT! :D

cheers
jay

Originally posted by dejoux
New Zealand is too small to have a successful car maker. We used to have assembly plants that only survived through government tarrifs. Take any 1st year economics paper and youll realise that these are not efficient.

We have among the cheapest 2nd hand cars in the world, this unfortunately means we also have among the highest rates of depreciation in the world.

At least we arn't forced to think of Hyundai's and Holden Geminis as Cool cars :biggrin2:

If I ever make it big, I will start up a car company, I know all the basics of running one and I can think of at least 100 sacked car manufacturing guys who still need employment, so really all I need is the cash, anyone got a spare $100 billion lying around?????:D :D :D

Originally posted by Chris
Look at this way, if you like: The Opel is based on the Commodore:)

jeez, finaly someone making some sence in this thread. the commodore is an AUSTRALIAN design. it dosent matter what parts are produced in whatever country, the commodore has always been designed by australians, which makes it an australian car. it is holden who has designed all commodores and hsv's.

Just to clear this one up, from what I have heard, Holden to the floorplan of a Vauxhall Omega, they stretched it and said "good so far"
then they got some designers to draw up the body and do a wee bit of dipping into the GM parts bin for a few minor components then the interior as well, next they said, screw looking around for a better engine than the gutless 3.8 Buick V6's just import some more, screw it f teh 3.2 V6 from the Omega is better, and the 5.0 V8 was continued as well then they fine tuned the suspension and brakes for Australian and New Zealand roads.

Then they dropped in a Chevy Gen III V8 in the place of the 5.0 further down the track, then gave the body a nip and tuck

So when you think about it the Holden is a rebadged Omega, only it is on a stretched platform, the body panels and interior are different and rather than Opel engines, they are sourced from the Yanks and Suspension and brakes are the only other things that Holden can truly claim as thiers (And we all know how good Aussies are at that)

And remember, Beetles, Golfs, and Jettas share the same platform as the Audi TT and old A4, so its not like its a new crappy idea, it works quite well (Plus it keeps the price down:) )

Originally posted by Chris
And remember, Beetles, Golfs, and Jettas share the same platform as the Audi TT and old A4, so its not like its a new crappy idea, it works quite well (Plus it keeps the price down:) )

Ermmmm.....
that is true but the old A4 isn't based on PQ34, the A3 is, the A4 shared with what we know as the Passat.

But apart from that everything you said is spot-on, the Octavia is wider and longer than the Golf, but it is still on PQ34, makers also do this all the time, like the Civic sedan is longer and narrower than the currnet hatch, but they are the same car the Peugeot 3O7 3dr is shorter than it's 5dr counterpart, but same platform, platform stretching is nothing new:) Holden do not have the cash to design a stand-alone viechle:)

Cars are so interchangeable that I reckon it boils down to identity. The Holden is an Aussie car. It may borrow parts from other places etc but it is not a known entity in many places and pretty much any Holden would sell very well in the States because of its uniqueness. Is a Jaguar now a Ford Taurus?? I think not...
Its amazing what a change to the entire car a little badge makes too....

Personally I look forward to an intro of Aussie based GM's to the states because frankly the US GM sedans suck, even if they do share parts. They are ugly and unappealing. I cant think of any Opel's that get my blood pumping either...

A Kiwi car?? Yeah, right......:D

Originally posted by ozxterra


A Kiwi car?? Yeah, right......:D

Your badge statement is pretty true, there area a lot of morons who are fooled by that.

As for the Kiwi car, the Ford Telstar could be seen as just as Kiwi as the Holden is Aussie, you take a Mazda 626, rebadge it, mildly restyle the front-end and fine tune it to NZ roads (Suspension and brakes) then assemble it here, which is like the Holden is, import everything, then fine-tune it, except in this case more went into the styling......... I even think we exported them to you lot......:finger: :finger: then there are all our low-brow makers of no-frills cheap Lotus-7 style sports-cars, which don't count for much (Except Fraiser who export to Japan)

Really is there any car that can be called true-blue Aussie????? I mean Diamante- all of the shit was done in Japan, Camry- about as Aussie as Al Gore, Commodore- this thread explains it all, Falcon- let's not go there.................

Originally posted by Moss1O6GTi

there area a lot of morons who are fooled by that.

Camry- about as Aussie as Al Gore

Direct quotes from automotive industry newsletter regarding Toyota Camry 380N

While the Camry looks identical to versions already on sale in the US and Japan, it uses a different platform and modified bodyshell. Toyota says its new fifth generation Camry is the most Australian, the safest and strongest ever thanks to its unique locally-developed body. In fact, while the local Camry looks identical to overseas versions, the two bodies are not interchangable. The targets have been achieved thanks to the Australian-developed Toyota Modular Platform (TMP). Using the TMP rather than the standard 380N platform ... etcetera

Morons?? I think you have forgetten that the reason cars have made it this far in regards to build and technology is because people have in a sense "fallen in love with them." Hell yeah the badge means something! Its called enthusiasm! You appear to have it for some rinky dink Telstar just 'coz it popped out of kiwi-land.
You might want to remember there are enough badge-loving morons to buy NZ.

The fact is nothing automotive of any real note has come from NZ. Grab a European or American auto-enthusiast and ask "What car brand comes to mind when you think of Australia??" They might likely say "Holden." Ask the same of NZ and they will likely just scratch themselves.

I dont have a problem with a mix of influences on cars. The same thing goes on with food, clothes and music etc - why not wheels?? I mean Fish and Chips didnt come from NZ originally but when its called "Fush and Chups" you sure as heck know where that meal is coming from:D Its all about the regional "flavour" and modifications you add to something. Holden is Australian - it doesnt fit anywhere else... When Pontiac rebadges a Holden as a GTO it will still be pretty cool but it will be an American GTO. Aussies will know where it came from and will get a kick out of it. Many americans are well aware where the Mercury (Ford) Capri came from and it creates a certain interest in the car that otherwise would not be there....

Originally posted by Moss1O6GTi


there area a lot of morons who are fooled by that.

Really is there any car that can be called true-blue Aussie????? Falcon- let's not go there.................

Don't get him started on Falcons ...

Originally posted by ozxterra

The fact is nothing automotive of any real note has come from NZ.


Mclaren dosn't count? :finger:


Anyway, it looks like Moss is showing his lack of age yet again.
(sorry mate but you do know how to put your foot in it!)

Badge enginering has been going on since long before everyone who's posted in this thread was Born. i.e since the introdution of the Motor Car.

The First to suffer from it heavily was the old Austin 7, its most famous rebadging was as BMW's first ever car. (kind of Ironic that BMW now owns the Austin name)

Anyway, GM later redfined and IMO perfected the Art of badge enginering.
And the Comodore Omega is a classic example.
Development for both cars is carried out all over the world.
Safety developments worked out in Ausie for the Comodore are used on the Omega (and what ever the US verison is (caprice??). And work on the base platform by opel is carried over to the Holden.
Mean while both models remain quite sperate, and it is true that there NO common parts shared between them.
Even the US sourced V6 in the Aussie Comodore ueses a lot of Holden only parts, that will not work with the US version of the same engine.


The Aussie version of the Magna/V3000 Diamante is actualy exported back to Japan, and altough its based on a Japanese car, if you look at an 2nd JDM one and a New Aussie made one they are quite differnt.

Originally posted by Moppie



Mclaren dosn't count? :finger:


Anyway, it looks like Moss is showing his lack of age yet again.
(sorry mate but you do know how to put your foot in it!)

Badge enginering has been going on since long before everyone who's posted in this thread was Born. i.e since the introdution of the Motor Car.

The First to suffer from it heavily was the old Austin 7, its most famous rebadging was as BMW's first ever car. (kind of Ironic that BMW now owns the Austin name)

Anyway, GM later redfined and IMO perfected the Art of badge enginering.
And the Comodore Omega is a classic example.
Development for both cars is carried out all over the world.
Safety developments worked out in Ausie for the Comodore are used on the Omega (and what ever the US verison is (caprice??). And work on the base platform by opel is carried over to the Holden.
Mean while both models remain quite sperate, and it is true that there NO common parts shared between them.
Even the US sourced V6 in the Aussie Comodore ueses a lot of Holden only parts, that will not work with the US version of the same engine.


The Aussie version of the Magna/V3000 Diamante is actualy exported back to Japan, and altough its based on a Japanese car, if you look at an 2nd JDM one and a New Aussie made one they are quite differnt.

I admit, I wasn't around to see VK Commodores rolling off the factory lines of Trentham or BMC Triumphs and Rovers coming out of Stokes (Hell I only got my first car last week) but I am not saying that any parts (Except those "infamous" door-handles) are the same as the Omega, but I will admit when the VT was released, I always thought it bore a resembleance to the Omega, but that sort of faded.

But really, the Commodre is far better than the Omega, Catera and Imapla. It is more reliable, gruntier, faster and better looking than the Omega- It probably is a better drive as well, but I have never driven an Omega (Yet there are quite a few in Auckland so I might be in luck) The Impala, with the errrr..........Front Wheel Drive stands no chance, plus it is hideous, despite sharing engines with the Commodore, the FWD probably can't handle the power. The Catera is the same as the Omega.

I would go as far as saying I like the Commodore (If we forget the VN and VP) they are dependable, good-looking (VT and VX only :) ) and the V6 is a good drive for an auto, while the V8 provides plenty of raw appeal and should definitley be considered a tribute to the Australian motor-industry. The AU Falcons, on the other hand are just restyled and re-jigged EF's, which were better EA's...........But I did watch an episode of Jim's Car Show where the SS and 220Kw XR8 were pitched against each-other and the Falcon seemed to take corners with more ease than the Commodore, which is good on the street, but sorta gay on the track, not to mention the Falcon is pretty bloody ugly (But one mans junk is another mans treasure) and the 5.6 T -Series is plain :eek2: I always slow down to let them past and especially like gawking at them capillers:bloated: But the AU's are still better than the crap that the Yanks are served up. BRING ON THE AV, with the restyled interior and front end as well as new engines, it should REALLY shove it up Holdens ass (Sorry but Holden fan's here really piss me off, with thier Fors are nothing attitude, then get pissed off and complain to editors when they woop Holdens)

Us South-Pacific-sider's should feel lucky that our industries produce(d) us nothing more than the best (Exceptions VN, VP Commodore and EA, EB Falcon) Just drive a 1996 Nelson-built Honda Civic VTi-S and then a Japanese-built 2001 Civic VTi-S and listen to the Jappers steering groan and the interior flake away to see what I mean, or drive a Corrolla anywhere in the world and then come to NZ and lavish Chris Amon's superbly executed suspension, or compare an Aussie Camry to a Jap or Yank Camry, you will find they they are shit-boxes in comparision to the Aussie Camry, which is still a shit-box (But then the whole Camry idea is) but a hell of a lot better and the Diamante puts the whole industry to shame, if youcompare a 3.5 Advance to a 3.8 Acclaim and 4.0 Futura, then you will find just why the Diamante puts them to shame.


I may be young, but I have managed to drive plenty of cars, some test drives (Cars that I was looking at buying) and even had the chance to drive some curtosey of certain family members in high places in NZ's automotive (Can't call it an industry any more so insert word here)

Peace out :coolguy:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Moss1O6GTi
[B]

(Sorry but Holden fan's here really piss me off, with thier Fors are nothing attitude, then get pissed off and complain to editors when they woop Holdens)


that coz its most likely a set-up when ford wins... fords have never really 'whooped' holdens... yet holdens have flogged the fords

its sure is a fact nowadays... ford CANNOT produce a winning car over holden, do you remember a couple of years ago when holden had a tribunal order telling them to make alterations to their cars because otherwise the series wouldnt be even, i beleive it was something to do with floorpans or something like that, its doesnt matter tho... ford cant make cars for the track or off the track

... and personally i'm sick of them making excuses for their lack of design and driving prowess

Originally posted by Jimbo_Jones
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Moss1O6GTi
[B]
do you remember a couple of years ago when holden had a tribunal order telling them to make alterations to their cars because otherwise the series wouldnt be even, i beleive it was something to do with floorpans or something like that, its doesnt matter tho... ford cant make cars for the track or off the track



The one I remember was when Holden went to a totaly independant rear suspension set up on all the Comodore models, while Ford was still running a live log at the back.
According to the rules for Bathurst, and the touring car series, independant suspension is not allowed. Hoden of course wanted to carry it over from the road cars to the race cars, (as it would have offered a large advantage over the log) but were not allowed to. So in order to allow the comodores to continue running in the series a rulling was made allowing them to run a log axle, even though none of the road cars did (instead of letting technology advance beyond the stone age and let them run an independant set up on the race cars).
Holden then, and they still do now, use a modfied version of the old Ford Nine Inch, since there was no suitable Holden or GM product readily avlaible.

The irony is, with the arrival of the AU Falcon range Ford for the fisrt time offered an independant suspension set up, and countless tests, and magazine reviews have shown it to be superior to the Holden set up. (and any basic knowledge of suspension design will tell you the same thing).
Yet despite this, the Touring cars are still Forced to run old fashioned log axles at the back.

The live axle running in the back of the V8 Supercars isn't as bad as it sounds. The main advantage of IRS in the back end of a road car vs a live axle is that it copes with mid corner bumps and provides significant improvements in ride comfort. Because there is less unsprung weight and each wheel operates independently, you don't have that big heavy axle flapping around.

The semi-trailing rear end in the IRS Commodores tends to produce camber change with suspension compression and until the Lotus Carlton derived toe control arms arrived - produced quite a bit of toe-in and toe-out under load. In a race car, this leads to increased tyre wear (ask anyone who has a VN to VS HSV about the inside tread wear on the rear end of their cars) and unwanted rear-end steer.

The Ford IRS - double wishbone is better in this regard but still has higher tyre wear than the live axle.

This is because a live axle connects both wheels and there is a fixed relationship of camber to the axle line and thrust angles at all times.

The other big advantages of the rear ends is cost and parity. Both makes get to use the same diffs (and ratios) and the reduction in complexity (less bushes, adjustments to camber and toe in) makes rear-end setup less critical. What you would find with IRS being available is that the richer teams with more testing time (and HRT is also rumored to have a four-poster test rig) and more cars (eg TWR has 5 cars) will have more data and better setups.

And live axles are simple, robust and cheap - something any team owner will smile about.

One other thing about Parity (and I can imagine this will stir some discussion) in the V8 Supercar series is that it's fine apart from one factor!

If you take out all the 5 TWR cars (HRT, Holden Young Lions and the KMart cars) out of the points you'll find there is bugger all difference in the results and performance of the cars. (I'd even go out and say that if TWR switched to Ford then in a season everyone would be bleating about the fact that Falc was superior.)

Just to prove the point if we take out the 4 top TWR Cars then out of the top 15 Cars, then 5 would be Holdens and 5 would be Falcons. The top two would be Falcons with the first Holden with Richards at 3rd.

Points score at 27 July 2002

1, 2, 3, 4 TWR Cars (Skaife, Murphy, Kelly, Bright)

5 Falcon - Ambrose
6 Falcon - Lowdnes
7 Holden - Steven Richards
8 Falcon - Besnard
9 Holden - Tander
10 Falcon - Bowe
11 Holden - Longhurst
12 Falcon - Johnson
13 Holden - Ingall
14 Holden - Bargwanna
15 Falcon - Jones
[I]

Each of the TWR cars was built by the same folk and the fact that they get at least 4 times as much testing time and data with very skilled drivers just shows how professional the TWR organisation is.

I'd (jokingly) suggest that if you want genuine parity in the V8 Supercar is:

1) That you get rid of TWR cars and let them have their own series
2) If they have more than 3 cars that have to run 2 cars from each make ie 2 Fords and 2 Holdens
3) Make the TWR cars carry 50 kg of ballast... or a deflector plate on the roof to slow them down...

Before anyone suggests bias - I do drive a Ford but not a Falcon.

I've only owned Holdens and Fords - I consider that I bought each one on its merits (ie would anyone pick a Holden Nova over a Ford Laser TX3i or a Ford Cortina instead of a Torana or in my current vehicle the latest Mondeo over the Vectra.)

I have always been a fan of 05 rather than 17. Perkins rather than Moffat. And I'd rather watch a Falcon race a Commodore than a Sierra.

If someone gave me the cash I'd swap the Mondeo for a Monaro. And I will always love close, clean racing in saloon cars...

And if AVESCO ever tries to take Bathurst off the calendar I'll be on the first plane to Sydney to hurl a full bottle of VB through their front window...

Sorry to dissopoint you but if i was you i would become a FORD man

PS holden are not that great:flipa:

Originally posted by Go team
PS holden are not that great:flipa:

dont worry, its not like you need to expand or anything... what an intelligent quote.... good for you buddy, hopefully people will now realise this is the way to make your argument :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Go team
PS holden are not that great:flipa:
Profound automotive insights like those of the calibre above keep me coming back to AF ...

Originally posted by Thunda Downunda

Profound automotive insights like those of the calibre above keep me coming back to AF ...

Hey mate :D Hven't seen you in a hile- the man who shot down gang$cum so cruelly is ALWAYS welcome back a t AF :D

I would love an HSV GTS-R with the supercharger:eek: That is every Westies wet dream :D - However My taste of Australian motroing- my EL XR8 wasn't that good of one- but I would like to try the new VY Commodore HSV

Originally posted by Thunda Downunda

Profound automotive insights like those of the calibre above keep me coming back to AF ...

Don't they just??? :D :D

Originally posted by Jimster


Hey mate :D Hven't seen you in a hile- the man who shot down gang$cum so cruelly is ALWAYS welcome back a t AF :D

I would love an HSV GTS-R with the supercharger:eek: That is every Westies wet dream :D - However My taste of Australian motroing- my EL XR8 wasn't that good of one- but I would like to try the new VY Commodore HSV

Jimster

Thank you indeed for your generous welcome!
I must admit I'd completely forgotten about Gang$lut/$lop/$uck and his chameleon BMW. I can't stand pretentious little twerps. Others may rightly find me equally obnoxious .. but hopefully not a cheap liar

Sorry to hear your XR8 was a dud

All the best to you & crazyayjay for 2003 :p

Good to have you back on the forum mate, will we be seeing you on here a litte more from now on?

It depends mate, what about you?. I'm more than interested in what knowledgable enthusiasts such as yourself have to say - good to shoot the breeze, share and discuss.

It's been difficult to log-on recently, and when I have it seems the majority of the posts concentrate on teenage aspirations. You know what I mean .. small cars with big speakers .. and Nissan PFQRRMZVBA1.8B engines

Originally posted by Thunda Downunda
It depends mate, what about you?. I'm more than interested in what knowledgable enthusiasts such as yourself have to say - good to shoot the breeze, share and discuss.

It's been difficult to log-on recently, and when I have it seems the majority of the posts concentrate on teenage aspirations. You know what I mean .. small cars with big speakers .. and Nissan PFQRRMZVBA1.8B engines


Don't we know it :D

If not that it's an SOHC VTEC with a big body kit :D