sanity check please for my upcoming UIM / LIM fix

I believe my 2001 LeSabre has leaks at both the UIM and LIM gaskets. It may just be the UIM but I plan to do the LIM while I'm in there. I am definitely losing coolant (albeit very, very slowly) and there is evidence of oil leaking at these gaskets. Here are pictures (sorry for the low quality, it's the best I can do right now):

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u187/kareemabdul12/DSC00027.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u187/kareemabdul12/DSC00028.jpg

My questions are:

1) Is this the kit I want to buy? - http://www.ineedparts.com/auto-parts/intake-manifolds/gm-intake-manifold-kit-17806.html

2) There is a link at the bottom of that page to a LIM gasket that it says is the right one for the job, but isn't there the possiblity of needing a gasket that is "pinned" or "not pinned"? Isn't that an unknown variable until you get the LIM off? If so, should I wait and not buy that gasket? My concern about this stems from this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=700916


3) I believe I can see the fabled elbow that everyone talks about breaking when they remove the LIM - the piece that goes from the tensioner into the LIM sure looks like an elbow to me. But, tapping on it, it seems like metal. I thought they were plastic? Assuming I'm wrong, and I break it like everyone else does, that elbow doesn't seem to be included in that kit from my question #1. What is the proper name for that elbow so that I can buy it somewhere? Do you suppose Autozone will have that?

Thanks very much in advance for any advice. I'm hoping this will be easier than it looks, like everyone says, but I guess my biggest fear is unknowingly buying the wrong parts and thus being faced with a big delay and lack of use of the car in achieving this fix.

I believe my 2001 LeSabre has leaks at both the UIM and LIM gaskets. It may just be the UIM but I plan to do the LIM while I'm in there. I am definitely losing coolant (albeit very, very slowly) and there is evidence of oil leaking at these gaskets. Here are pictures (sorry for the low quality, it's the best I can do right now):


My questions are:

1) Is this the kit I want to buy? - http://www.ineedparts.com/auto-parts/intake-manifolds/gm-intake-manifold-kit-17806.html

2) There is a link at the bottom of that page to a LIM gasket that it says is the right one for the job, but isn't there the possiblity of needing a gasket that is "pinned" or "not pinned"? Isn't that an unknown variable until you get the LIM off? If so, should I wait and not buy that gasket? My concern about this stems from this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=700916


3) I believe I can see the fabled elbow that everyone talks about breaking when they remove the LIM - the piece that goes from the tensioner into the LIM sure looks like an elbow to me. But, tapping on it, it seems like metal. I thought they were plastic? Assuming I'm wrong, and I break it like everyone else does, that elbow doesn't seem to be included in that kit from my question #1. What is the proper name for that elbow so that I can buy it somewhere? Do you suppose Autozone will have that?

Thanks very much in advance for any advice. I'm hoping this will be easier than it looks, like everyone says, but I guess my biggest fear is unknowingly buying the wrong parts and thus being faced with a big delay and lack of use of the car in achieving this fix.

I just had mine done with the APN from Ineedparts.com that you show.

The lowers they offer together with the upper may be fine.

My problem turned out to be the throttle body gasket. The car had a recall done where they put on different taps wtih spring washers to keep pressure. But the gasket they used was thin and when the UIM warps from heating and cooling, the gasket didn't have enough thickness to maintain a seal. GM should have done a recall on the gaskets on the throttle body.

The lowers had a couple of the rectangular seals around the runners distorted inward and the plastic matrix was about ready to break and the nylon sealing parts seemed still intact. I did have a pooling of coolant coming up in one of the pockets in front away from the throttle body end. So the mechanic and I had surmised the problem would be lowers. But if I had cleaned my throttle body at 80K miles and put on a new gasket, I wouldn't have had this at 107,000, because the leak was easy to fix at the throttle body.

The coolant elbow is available from the HELP (Dorman) racks at parts stores. The mechanic broke the elbow on mine.

I used the same one you posted on the link. I like this one the best. I was very determined not to break the elbo. I did.

It was on a weekend and was told on the forum it was dealer only. I went to shucks and they had it.

My advice would be not to take the kids word when he says, "no, that's a dealer only item." Tell him it's the Dorman/heater hose fitting - part #47065. Best to call around so they can check. I hate when they say, "no", then I go down the isle and find what they said they didn't have.

Chris.

Thanks for the part number! Is it implicitly the same on the 2001 as your 1997 because of the same engine?

Also I guess my only recourse is to buy the kit without the LIM gasket and then wait and see whether mine is the pinned or unpinned type and then go get the right one from the store at that time?

Also thanks for the warning about the throttle body gasket... I hope I can find a felpro one or something superior to the GM gasket!

I thought why use a GM Gasket, when it's been a problem.

Chris.

Did you end up finding a non-GM one for the throttle body?

Is the one that comes with the kit orange?

I don't know, I don't have the kit yet, but from the picture in the link about it looks like the UIM gasket is orange. It doesn't show the TB side of the UIM. It describes the gaskets that come with it as "Improved High-Temp Carrier and Throttle Body Gaskets to prevent coolant leaks" which sounds like aftermarket.

I think we used fel-pro lower and the one that came with it for the upper. The pined and unpinned is a later and earlier. I can't remember which one is which.

My "1997" was made in 3/96. The 97 Lesabre was the earliest 97 car to come out that year.

I can't remember for sure, but I think mine ended up not mattering. It could be used with both. I'll ask my friend if he remembers, but I think it didn't matter. I know, it sounds stupid, but somehow it didn't matter.

Chris.

It doesn't sound stupid. That's actually what I've been reading on other sites. I think what they're saying is that if you get the pinned one for a car that doesn't have the pin holes, that the pinned part of the gasket just ends up hanging off the edge and not mattering. If that's the case, then I think the only concern might be if you got the unpinned one for a pinned motor. Even then perhaps it doesn't matter. But I tend to be real paranoid when I have engines open like this so I like to have the right thing...

They also say that they introduced the pin business in 97 but they don't say if it was changed over to that completely for all post-97 motors. I've seen a few messages at least that say "you don't know until you get in there."

Well I just called the GM dealership here and the guy said they only list one LIM gasket for an 01 LeSabre (about $64), but he didn't seem to know much about the whole pinned/unpinned thing. Seems like that might be an issue for the earlier models.

I don't know, I don't have the kit yet, but from the picture in the link about it looks like the UIM gasket is orange. It doesn't show the TB side of the UIM. It describes the gaskets that come with it as "Improved High-Temp Carrier and Throttle Body Gaskets to prevent coolant leaks" which sounds like aftermarket.

The APN upper had a nice thick black throttle body gasket already on the end of the upper!

The Pinned unpinned doesn't really matter for the 1st design block, either or can be used... On the Blocks with the pin hole carrier for the end seals you want the pinned... So you can use the newest gaskets on the older 3800 II.. No issues there..

The mechanic who did mine for me this time said he likes to let the silicone on the lower intake gaskets cure overnight before he reassembles the lower and up. Makes sense to me. That's the only advice I can offer other than use different containers for the various bolts and screws from different parts of the diassembly--and label the paper cups or whatever you use. I used stickon labels for some things.

I used zip lock bags and a strip of paper keep up with the screws. I have the earlier block and had the the pinned set. It doesn't matter. In fact I installed the end seal backwards on the rear of the engine and use the old end seal for the front part and it doesn't leak one bit. Plus the dealership only sells the aluminum gaskets and it will likely be pinned, it does prevent you from installing the gaskets upside down. And as everyone else has stated their will be a 100% chance that you will break the elbow.

They changed in 97. Early is one way, later is another.

Cool, thanks for all the responses everyone! I now have the kit and I got the LIM gasket and the elbow from the dealer. I think I just have one more question, and that's about the use of silicone / RTV. There's a video on youtube where a guy is doing this on a 95 lesabre and he uses just a little dab of RTV on the edges of the side strip seal things on the LIM gasket. Should I do that, and if so, what kind of RTV should I use? The guy in the video doesn't specify.

Also, should I use some kind of silicone on the injector o-rings, and if so what kind?

Thanks!

Use silicone spray lubricant on the injector O-rings, not sealant! For the edges of the end seals, I prefer Pro Seal 80726 Red Model # 80726 Hi-Temp RTV Silicone Instant Gasket, or equivalent. Be sure to clean all surfaces with brake cleaner & wipe dry. Remember, a little dab of silicone sealer will do, more is not better!

Wow, fast reply, thanks! I will look for those products. Should the "dab" be basically a little ball in the middle or should I try to run it the length of the seam? (I'm probably straying into OCD-land here...)

The end of each seal is all that is needed, do not run the entire length of the valley seal.

I've torn into it past the point of no return now! Got everything drained and most of the stuff out of the way and am close to pulling that plenum off.

About the RTV... yeah I certainly didn't mean going down the whole length of it! What I meant was do I use a little spherical dab or run a line down the THICKNESS of it. But it's so narrow that any glob will spread out to fill it in and my question is basically meaningless I think.

However, regarding allowing the RTV to cure, imidazol97 mentioned that his mechanic lets it cure overnight before reassembling? I assume you put the LIM back on when the stuff is still soft though? And beyond that I don't see how reassembling it would matter? I understand letting it cure before starting it though...

Just an update.. I finally got the plenum off and have a couple pics of the LIM. There is a pool of oil in the upper left and lower right compartments (not in the actual cylinder intake tube parts but right next to them) in the pics. Dunno if that means anything in particular except what I already knew. Will post a pic of the block when I get to it. Right now it's time for a hamburger.

Got the LIM off and predictably had to break the coolant elbow. Two coolant passages on the block below the LIM have a nasty peanut buttery looking substance in them which I assume is from oil leaking into the coolant. Not looking forward to the cleaning of the LIM. Pics below just for the heck of it!

Looks normal to me.It's a pretty straight forward job. I saw the same brown stuff in my coolant passages. Your lifter valley are looks a lot cleaner than mine. Hopefully you don't run into any problems. I think the worst part is putting the throttle body back on.

Here's a link to my UIM/LIM with pics http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=978334

Yeah I hope I have no problems either! Thanks for the link to yours.

At the moment I'm not sure how to get the old stovepipe out of the LIM. The instructions with the aftermarket plenum say to yank it out with a slide hammer attached to a pair of vice grips. I have a slide hammer and vice grips but they don't mate up. Is there a different way or do I have to go hunting around for the right adapter? Seems like a significant chance of dinging up my LIM if I do this part wrong.

I'm also wondering how clean you guys get the manifold surfaces before sticking the gasket on there. Seems like it may be quite difficult to get all the visible traces of old gasket material off of the block. I've only scrubbed a bit with brake cleaner and rags so far but it seems like I may have to settle for just oil-free rather than perfect. Do you guys settle for oil-free?

I'm following this thread with a lot of interest, because I have two Lesabres which may very will need LIM, and possibly a throttle body gasket in the future from some of the responses here. Both UIMs are 2000+ variety, so hopefully they both have the smaller EGR stovepipe. I'll just keep an eye on the coolant levels.

As for cleaning gasket surfaces, I've had success using carb cleaner and a toothbrush. For more stubborn residues I made up a wooden scraper. I'm probably more fussy than most but I like doing these jobs once. Not twice (unless they're on two different cars).

Glad this thread is useful to someone besides me :)

Can you elaborate on the whole bigger/smaller stovepipe thing? That's the first I've heard of anything like that, and it might explain why they shipped two slightly different stovepipe inserts with my UIM kit. Their product may be good but their instructions suck.

I hope some one with more experience than me will answer your question about the stovepipe, but my understanding is in 1999+ Buick used a smaller stovepipe. Originally, the EGR stovepipe, which carries the exhaust gases into the intake actually contacted the intake manifold. The heat of the gases caused the plastic to erode. The smaller diameter stovepipe does not contact the intake, so there is an insulating air gap between the stovepipe and manifold.

Well I totally overestimated the difficulty of getting the pipe out without a proper slide hammer attachment. I simply gripped it with vice grips and then held onto the grips and beat on the manifold with a rubber mallet. Came out no problem as it's only stuck in there about a quarter of an inch.

Glad to hear. My EGR stove-pipe was attached to the UIM by carbon build-up. :uhoh:

I wonder if that was keeping coolant out of the top of the engine or barely letting it in. Who knows.

Okay well I'm fairly satisfied with the cleanliness of the surfaces and after a little more cleaning I will soon be putting the lower back on. Can anyone tell me what the torque specs are by any chance?

According to a video on youtube for a 1995 LeSabre the guy says that the lower gets torqued to 11 ft-lbs (132 inch-lbs). Then there's this WikiAnswers link where some guy says it's 136 inch-lbs for the lower and 89 inch-lbs for the upper:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_torque_specs_for_a_pontiac_3.8_intake _manifold

He doesn't say where he looked those up. Are these values generally correct? I know this isn't the space shuttle I'm working on here. I guess I just want to make sure I'm in the ball park.

Not sure off hand, not at home right now. The reason you'll get different numbers is because there is the "original" torque specs and the "updated" specs.

Chris.

The LIM gaskets should be 132 in-lbs. The upper gaskets ar 89 in-lbs I think. I just followed whatever the dorman kit I used said to do.

The LIM is in. It could have gone better than it did. As I was putting it in for some reason it grabbed onto the rear aluminum gasket and dragged it to the side a bit. I noticed this before the LIM was totally seated as the intake ports being half closed off by the gasket was pretty obvious. I had to take the LIM out and start over. The second time it still had shifted a tiny bit but I was able to kind of pry it back into the proper position by sticking the bolts in. I started tightening them and it seated fine at that point. My main concerns from that whole event are that the gasket may have been damaged or gotten some oil from surrounding surfaces on it, or that one of the locating pins may have broken off and gotten into the works and will destroy the car when I start it up. Hopefully none of those things will happen. The LIM is in now anyway and the RTV is curing. Basically I'm going to worry my ass off until I see the car running happily without any leaks. Perhaps some of you can either allay my fears or scare me enough to pull the thing back off to check things out.

One other unexpected thing that happened was that I discovered there was a circular piece of the coolant elbow stuck in both the LIM and the belt tensioner assembly. I happened to have a pilot bearing puller and was able to get it out of the LIM with a slide hammer and out of the tensioner by just pulling.

Another tip is that fitting the LIM onto the coolant elbow during reinstallation can only be achieved by rotating the elbow so that it points up a bit. Then the LIM can fit on it and be sort of rotated down onto the block.

Well, it's alive again! Nothing catastrophic upon restart, cooling system functioned fine on first warmup, no apparent external leaks, seemingly clean exhaust, good oil pressure.

I think I may hear a very very slight tapping noise - not like a lifter/valve sound which I think goes slower than the RPMs but a softer one that goes (I think) as fast as the RPMs. It may have even been there before; I honestly can't remember and am praying that it's just a normal engine sound.

Did you reroute the throttle body passages to prevent leaks near the throttle body? If so, I'm curious how it went.

Hmm, I'm not really sure what you mean? What throttle body passages?

There are coolant ports from the upper intake that carry coolant into the throttle body. Some people leave them alone, others block the ports off at the lower intake, and some make a u-tube to allow the coolant to flow, but bypass the throttle body. I'm trying to figure out what the best option is for me.

If you left it alone, if it does fail in the future at least you only have to remove the upper intake, and not the lower intake as well.

Check http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=681086 for more information.

Huh, that's the first I've heard of all that in all my searching on this! Weird. I didn't do anything that special, that's for sure.

Anyway, after fixing a brake line that decided to randomly open up at the rear of the car during my intake job, I was finally able to drive the car around today. Seems fine so far. Fluid levels held up over a 40 mile drive. No visible leaks or weird smells. It may have been ever, ever so slightly rough running at idle at times but I could be imagining that. (Maybe I can spray around to check for a vacuum leak..?) Temp was fine. Oil pressure varied from about 62 while driving to as low as 36 while at a standstill (average at a standstill was about 40). According to the digital gauge these numbers are still "normal" but I honestly can't remember what the lower end of the range was before I did the job. Anyone know the range for this engine? It's got 105k on it. Also I don't think my alternator liked sitting on the garage floor for a week as it chirped at me for a little while... voltage was fine. Dunno if the bearing might be on its way out.

Anyhow I'm pleased overall so far.

Sounds good! Anyway, if you ever do have a coolant leak in the future, you will know it's in the upper intake so you won't be messing with the lower intake, and only one intake gasket and one throttle body gasket to deal with. (I'm assuming you used the aluminum gasket from GM for the lower intake).

Yup, used the aluminum one from the dealer with the green rubber inlay stuff on it. I will try not to be too upset if I get a coolant leak again someday. Thanks for the heads up!

Oil pressure is on the money for that motor..

Good. Thanks!

The mechanic who did mine for me this time said he likes to let the silicone on the lower intake gaskets cure overnight before he reassembles the lower and up. Makes sense to me. That's the only advice I can offer other than use different containers for the various bolts and screws from different parts of the diassembly--and label the paper cups or whatever you use. I used stickon labels for some things.Wont critasize him for doing that, but it would drive me crazy! Take an day job and make it two days? Forget that.

Just MHO,
Chris.

I take back what I said about this being all hunky dory. Today I see an oil leak on the front driver side corner of my LIM gasket. Wondering if I didn't put enough RTV in that corner or perhaps messed up my torque or didn't clean the surfaces well enough. It's also definitely running a little rough, which I'm praying is just a vacuum leak that'll be easy. The oil leak I have no idea how to approach if I can approach it at all. Maybe going to dry it up and slap a bunch of RTV in there and pray.

I just hope this leak is less than the leaks that were there before. I'm very disappointed anyway.

Try first to clean it, then drive some more. Could be left over oil from somewhere. Wroth a try.'

Chris.

Nope it's definitely an existing leak. I had it nice and clean and then there it was. Cleaned it again and it reappeared again. However, there's a chance it's coming from the head gasket (at least I think that's what that gasket is that goes underneath the valve body there and meets up with the LIM gasket at like a 120-degree angle). It may be that I just couldn't see it before under all the gunk from the LIM and UIM leaks. So, perhaps this isn't my fault.

I'm more concerned about why it's running rough, which is definitely a condition I caused seeing as how that certainly wasn't doing that before.

I don't know if it's worth noting but the plastic box thing at the passenger side front end of the wiring harness was unbolted for a little while when driving it. I think it's either a common ground or a capacitor of some kind that needs a ground. I had lost the bolt but bought a new one today so it's bolted down now. When messing with the bolt and moving the box around (so that it wasn't touching anything) it actually prevented the starter from turning once today. The rough running has been unaffected by this whole thing though.