Another 2k clear Problem+Questions...

Hello again,
This is my first attempt to a 2k clear...

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh451/gtziaf/orange_peel.jpg

As you see I got a lot of orange peel (it seem lik a lemon to me :iceslolan) .
The 2k clear are from Zero...
I use an iwata eclipse with extra 0,5 needle, I spray it with 20 psi.
Also I mix 2k 100% clear, 50% hardener and 20% thinner.
The base color are zero 's giallo modena... (sprayed 1 month before)
And the quenstions...
1) This is usual?
2) Can restore them with sanding and rubbing?
3) If yes, what sand paper number to start?
4) How many days to start sand...
5) Whats the problem for this orange peel (needing more thinner - zero says 10%-25% in instructions)
6)Any suggestions very-very welcome

Waiting for answears, Thanks a lot for your time...

Very not usual... I've had no issue with Zero 2K.

It _looks_ like it's drying (or at least gel-ling) before it hits.

Is it very hot where you are, now? Maybe you need to over-thin, to compensate for faster air-drying.

Did you spray the first "mist" coat (almost a matt effect) first, and then wait a few minutes before going for the "wet" coat? That mist coat makes the surface very finely rough, so that the later "wet" coat is "sucked" flat by capillary action.

The thing with 2K is that it has a lot of solids, so you can't rely on it to flow and self level unless you a)put the mist coat on first, and b) use almost enough for it to start "running." It'll take a LOT "wetter" wet coat than pre-mix or spray-can lacquer without running, in my experience.

Do it right, and it really shouldn't NEED sanding...

HTH...
bestest,
M.

Thanks for your reply...
I spray the mist and 5 min later the first wet coat... Ten min later the second wet coat...
I leave in Greece so its hot, but I spray early in the morning...
Maybe this is not help..
With regards

I think you could add more thinner. I use sometimes as much as 40-50% thinner. So a typical mix would be 10ml clear, 5 ml hardener and 4 or 5ml of thinner. You can also spray it very wet and it will not run, it just stays where you put it. Sometimes I do one final coat where I add even more thinner to the remainder of the first mix, maybe another 1ml. I then apply this mix and it levels the whole thing perfectly. I used that method on my Suzuki Hayabusa build and it worked fantastic.
Also, although I'm not sure it has made a difference I think the wait of one month between colour coat and clear coat is too long. You can clear it after 20-30 mins if you are using Zero basecoat colours. Only time I leave it longer is when it's a metallic, but even then only overnight drying at most...

Thanks for your reply...
I spray the mist and 5 min later the first wet coat... Ten min later the second wet coat...
I leave in Greece so its hot, but I spray early in the morning...
Maybe this is not help..
With regards

Not sure about hot weather, maybe if there is a lot of moisture in the air and it is humid. I always bake the 2K in the Mr Dry Booth oven, so heat actually helps the finish level and go smooth in my experience.

I think you could add more thinner... You can also spray it very wet and it will not run, it just stays where you put it.

Yep, I fully agree with both Matt and Steve on both counts.

The chances are that the paint isn't thinned enough. Believe it or not, I mix three+ parts thinner to one part 1k urethane color coat, and it sprays out smooth and opaque (the opposite of transparent).

Actually, a similar problem can be caused by using hardware store lacquer thinner. It can make the paint curdle, which produces that kind of rough finish. Use medium temp reducer that's intended for automotive urethane paint. But if that's what you're using, the problem is almost certainly caused by too-thick paint. Or spraying from too great a distance. And Steve's absolutely right on the waiting time, too. Urethanes dry fast, really fast.

Many of the old rules-of-thumb don't apply to the newer paints. Synthetic lacquers (Tamiya spray-can) and automotive urethanes like your 2K are very different animals.

These new paints are designed so they don't tend to sag or run. Sounds too good, but it's true. I've found that the only thing that suffers from too-thin urethane paint is coverage. Too-thick, on the other hand, will a produce a pebbly, orange-peely finish like you got on the spoon. So... too thin is better than too thick.

If the finish on your car looks like that spoon, I think it's a waste of time to try to sand it smooth. I'd strip and start over. As both Matt and Steve have said, it shouldn't need any sanding at all.

Unfortunately, one of the downsides of 2K urethanes is that they are very tough and hard to strip. I don't know what to suggest in that department, since I only use 1Ks, which are easier to remove.

Good luck!

Thanks a lot for advices and answears...
Very usuful, all...
I try to do better next time...
One more quenstion, how can strip Urethanes and 2k clears... Its an option...
Thanks again...

I have similar problem as yours when I started to use 2K. what I have learned is to add more thinner to have paint like when u thin normal acrylics or so.almost like milk consystency. and u should spray it very close to subject(maybe around 3cm from kit) and with fully open trigger coz this paint is thick.spray it with slow motions.dont be afraid of runs. and u can strip this clear with isopropilalcohol (IPA) 97% not 91% soak all kit in some contauner that is sealed coz IPA is vapouring quickly and also vapours helps to remove clear. it will lift the clear and u will have to strip it with brush.but nothing difficult. unless u use TS paint under it

I have similar problem as yours when I started to use 2K. what I have learned is to add more thinner to have paint like when u thin normal acrylics or so.almost like milk consystency. and u should spray it very close to subject(maybe around 3cm from kit) and with fully open trigger coz this paint is thick.spray it with slow motions.dont be afraid of runs. and u can strip this clear with isopropilalcohol (IPA) 97% not 91% soak all kit in some contauner that is sealed coz IPA is vapouring quickly and also vapours helps to remove clear. it will lift the clear and u will have to strip it with brush.but nothing difficult. unless u use TS paint under it

Wait, You can strip zero 2k with 97% IPA solution?

Awesome! - I have zero 2k on the shelf, waiting to use it, I have IPA too (need to check the %) .... I thought once 2k was on that was it, it would be extremely difficult to remove?

You can strip this clear with isopropyl alcohol (IPA) 97%

Have you actually done this yourself and it's worked..?? Luckily I have never had to strip anything I've used the 2K clear on, but I know there will be a day when I will make a mistake. If the IPA works on stripping it, that would be good to know....

Have you actually done this yourself and it's worked..?? Luckily I have never had to strip anything I've used the 2K clear on, but I know there will be a day when I will make a mistake. If the IPA works on stripping it, that would be good to know....

Tamiya TS Spray is also useful for stripping... I had a body I'd cleared in 2K that I wasn't 100% happy with, and in a moment of desperation I hit it with some Tamiya TS black, thinking I'd start over.... Within minutes the 2K had wrinkled, and I was able to almost peel it off in sheets.....

I put the resulting mess into IPA and it came up clean as a whistle...

Obviously some kind of nasty reaction.... and a warning not to use TS paints for window trim etc over a 2K cleared body...

@steve: yes I have stripped calsonic GTR body. it was first time that I used it because of difficult body shape and it works. but I didnt get clean result coz I used TS paint which IPA doesnt seem dissolve. if it was acrylic it should strip it on bare primer without damaging it.

@fangi0: yep thats true it happened to me too but I hadnt IPA that time so I had to sand the clear down.luckyli it was small part

2k clear can be removed with ease via IPA then :bananasmi
No more stressing about getting the wrong results and having to live with it!

Definitely need more thinner.

Thanks a lot for all comments...
I 'll try to my model tommorow morning.. During the day here in Greece we have 30-35 Celcius! So I 'll try in morning.
I 'll gone to 50% thinner... Its ok? More?
Thanks again for your time to help me...

Gtziaf,
You might try increments of 10% on test spoons until you get the leveling properties you want (30%, 40%, 50%, etc). Just keep adding thinner into the spray cup so you don't waste too much paint. (Take notes and mix the paint and thinner thoroughly each time.)

Fresh 1k acrylic clear is easily stripped with 97% IPA but 2k epoxy clear is a totally different chemistry. Alcohol should have no effect on real 2k. If Zero 2k can be stripped with alcohol then it's NOT 2k epoxy. I think we should ask what Mr. Zero is actually selling?

I use lechler automotive 2k and it can be stripped with IPA so I dont see any problem with zero.

try to avoid overthinning clear because it musnt dry enough. more thinner u add more time it should cure

Gtziaf,
If Zero 2k can be stripped with alcohol then it's NOT 2k epoxy. I think we should ask what Mr. Zero is actually selling?

well if Zero 2k isn't really a real 2k epoxy I don't think it will matter much because I've seen some fantastic finishes on this forum which have used it.

and as a bonus is can be removed with IPA 97%...or so we think - I guess I'll have to test it!

I do wish it was cheaper tho! :wink:

I don't have IPA 97%, so I strip the paint from spoon with sanding...
Not so easy, but job done...
Now I can test again the thinner 's %...
How to wait between two wet coats?

I usually paint the clear about 20-30 mins after the colour coat. 3-4 coats of clear with 5 mins between. 1st coat is a light tack coat, 2nd coat medium wet and 3rd and 4th coats full wet but not wet dripping, just proper wet. You are looking for the magic 'moment' just before it runs. Wet enough for good gloss and no orange peel, but not too wet that it causes runs and sags.
The Zero 2K is urethane, not epoxy. I think epoxy applies more to primers or those two part glues such as araldite....

I use Lechler automotive 2k and it can be stripped with IPA so I don't see any problem with Zero.

If my memory serves me correctly they are one and the same. All the Zero paint products are Lechler products, re- bottled and re-branded as Zero....

I usually paint the clear about 20-30 mins after the colour coat. 3-4 coats of clear with 5 mins between.
Steve, I was wondering - do you mix up one batch and leave it in your airbrush between coats? Or do you mix up several smaller batches?

I do the latter because I am paranoid about the clear hardening in my brush and ruining it. But maybe I am being overly paranoid? :icon16:

I am certainly surprised to read that alcohol will remove 2K clear! Happy, but surprised. I'll give that a test run next time I have some clear mixed up for painting. :thumbsup:

If my memory serves me correctly they are one and the same. All the Zero paint products are Lechler products, re- bottled and re-branded as Zero....


thats news for me

dont worry about clogging your AB but after use u are advised to disassemble everything that is removable from AB and clean. especialy trigger can cause problems.

Steve, I was wondering - do you mix up one batch and leave it in your airbrush between coats? Or do you mix up several smaller batches?

I do the latter because I am paranoid about the clear hardening in my brush and ruining it. But maybe I am being overly paranoid? :icon16:

I am certainly surprised to read that alcohol will remove 2K clear! Happy, but surprised. I'll give that a test run next time I have some clear mixed up for painting. :thumbsup:

I mix just one batch. You have a good hour and a half 'pot life' at least, before it starts to set. It takes a lot longer to set in the airbrush pot than on the model. I think because it's a large quantity. If you have any left at the end of your session pour it into a container and let it set. It never really goes hard, it's just like a firm jelly that you can squash. I think it's only when it's on the surface in a very thin coat that it sets rock hard. As long as you clean out the brush with the appropriate thinner/gun wash you will not damage your airbrush.

I mix just one batch. You have a good hour and a half 'pot life' at least, before it starts to set. It takes a lot longer to set in the airbrush pot than on the model. I think because it's a large quantity. If you have any left at the end of your session pour it into a container and let it set. It never really goes hard, it's just like a firm jelly that you can squash. I think it's only when it's on the surface in a very thin coat that it sets rock hard. As long as you clean out the brush with the appropriate thinner/gun wash you will not damage your airbrush.
Thanks, Steve.
Very useful firsthand advice - appreciate it :bigthumb:

EDIT: BTW, it is also my understanding that Zero paints are the Lechler system (unless something has changed)

to the OP, if you have already sprayed a model with this and have the same result, once you find a good mix for spraying and getting the result you are looking for and expect, you may be able to save the body without stripping it, it may take a little work but its quite doable. Urethanes have a self leveling property to them, give the body a couple of GOOD wet coats and it should level itself out. If the orange peel is borderline severe, knock it down with some 600 grit paper, then follow with 1000 and you should be good to re-spray and have good results. I've been spraying urethanes for several years now, and have never had to strip due to a little peel in the clear

Where do you guys use the [zero] 2k - I've heard its pretty nasty stuff - (isocyanates).

I usually paint in my room - I have a dedicated extractor booth (commercial) with a powerful fan and hose to the outlet in the window. This does a great job of extracting all my paint fumes really well.... I do need to let it run for 5/10 mins after I'm done to completley extract all fumes from the room.

I wear a mask of course.... but with the warnings about 2k I feel as though I should use it outside of the house (I have no garage :frown:)... I just can't bothered to move everything outside which is why the 2k is still sitting on my shelf!

So, do you guys use it outside too?

Where do you guys use the [zero] 2k - I've heard its pretty nasty stuff - (isocyanates).

So, do you guys use it outside too?

I use it in my balcon...
I think it is a risk to use it inside...
I don't have garage too, so the balcon is a good alternative solution...

white97ex : Thanks for the advise...

I spray indoors, but I have a proper extractor fan that sucks away all the fumes and vents the filtered air via a duct pipe to the outside. I also wear an appropriate spray mask as well to be totally safe. To be honest I don't spray it a lot as I only make 2-3 models a year now at best and I only use it for the main body parts, so my use of the 2K is relatively low. But if you take the necessary precautions it is safe to use.

its good to buy paper suit that proffesionals use because 2k is absorbed also with your skin. I always want to buy it but am too lazy.and dont forget to wear goggles coz it attacks eye whites too. and a proper mask I use 3M. but like steve said when u are making 3 models a year its not so bad.but on the other hand this siht is accumulating in your body...body cant exhaust it

Thanks for the advice guys, pretty much sums it up.

I do use the '3M mask'/googles too.... I will use 2k outside then.

I think it doesnt matter if u use it outside or inside but mist from spraying can still hit u

I´ve been thinking about the 2K safety risks a lot. And I keep coming back to the fact that people who paint 1:1 cars are exposed to these paints in amounts who are almost 1000 times greater than most of us modelers. Everyday. For many years...

How do they stay safe and sound? Anyone know?

I´m not taking a stand for or against anything here but I think that a debate of this is good since many modelers use 2K nowadays and there is a VERY real risk with this stuff if used improperly...

Sorry for the hijack...but it sorta has to do with the subject... :)


Cheers!

Emil

In automotive production our workers used full body suits and pressurized respirators. A requirement for employment was that they had to have a full blood workup weekly to monitor their chemistry levels. If their blood chart got out of wack they were pulled from further paint exposure until the cause was found. Two times and they were permanently reassigned or terminated if negligence was established. It's a dangerous job spraying this stuff 8 hours a day and workers were paid a premium to compensate. Most plants use automation now (robots).

BTW, I use DuPont Chromaclear. It is impervious to isopropyl alcohol.