'92 lesabre R12 A/C out of gas since a year

hi guys,

have a question about A/C system (original, no conversion to 134a) and since it's expensive or impossible to get old freon type nowadays i never bothered with repairing the a/c on this car. it has some leaks, but radiator for A/C was replaced 4 years ago and system was able to hold cooling efficiency for a year or two after each refill in a shop that still had R12.

I recently learned that there is still a R12 gas equivalent (Freeze 12) being sold (e.g. at amazon) and is the direct fit for old R12 A/C systems.

I found this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002GQ0QQO/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B001DKNEAE&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1WGJ6CZGVKTWD6FTST1V

Will this revive the a/c ? :D it's a set of 2x 12oz cans of gas with a can of oil plus hose adapter.

Have any one tried it ? thanks for input!

i actually found a better Freeze 12 kit for a compelte empty system refill:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Freeze-12-Complete-Car-Kit-R12-Refrigerant-Replacement-/330423275644?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ceec3107c

The kit has more stuff in it (including a leak stop):
3 (12oz.) Cans Freeze-12 Refrigerant
1 (4oz.) Can Freeze-12 Oil Charge
1 (4oz.) Can Freeze-12 Leak Stop
1 Freeze-12 to R-12 Can Tap
1 Universal Check Gauge
1 Installation CD

I think I will give it a shot.

retrofit it to 134A.it's simple and works fine on your car.high side pressure usually go up a bit after conversion but you won't notice that much of a difference.only thing to remember is 134A takes only 80% of what the old system used to hold.

retrofit it to 134A.it's simple and works fine on your car.high side pressure usually go up a bit after conversion but you won't notice that much of a difference.only thing to remember is 134A takes only 80% of what the old system used to hold.

thanks. i think i will pass on conversion, this car is in poor shape (body and some metal parts rusted out), so i don't want to put any real money into it.
it actually was close to be junked 3-4 times already, because of serious failures it had over years, i was lucky to repair those quickly and save the car.
i think i will only try charging a/c system with Freeze 12 and see what happens. if it works then great, if it doesn't i leave it like it is hehe

will post back once i get the above kit.

Keep in mind r134 tends to find leaks much easier than r12, so any weak seals or hoses will leak.

Keep in mind r134 tends to find leaks much easier than r12, so any weak seals or hoses will leak.

yes, i heard that too. i'm pretty sure 134a wouldn't last a day in this car ;)

"Freeze 12" works fine for toping off an R12 system, I have been using it for years for that purpose. "Leak stop" will congest & clog the system, do not use it! BTW, most NAPA & Pep Boys stock Freeze-12; however, they may ask for, (but not always) an EPA #609 MVAC license to purchase it.

ASE/EPA MVAC Certified Technician

"Freeze 12" works fine for toping off an R12 system, I have been using it for years for that purpose. "Leak stop" will congest & clog the system, do not use it! BTW, most NAPA & Pep Boys stock Freeze-12; however, they may ask for, (but not always) an EPA #609 MVAC license to purchase it.

ASE/EPA MVAC Certified Technician

thanks for input! will leave leak stop alone. i heard that a/c mechanics can still buy it, but yeah stores ask for papers... on shelves they have 134a only.

dang. i'm dumb. i wasted 2 cans of gas before i realized that compressor is not kicking in and pulley is not turning at all ... i guess i won't have a/c anymore in this car LOL :lol:

any specific fuses or relays i can check to make sure a/c circuit is right ?
i can test resistance/current at a/c plugs, i think they are easy to access. any detailed info please before i assume it's a lost case ?

thanks.

Have you tried to jump the terminal on the pressure switch, which is located on the accumulator?

Have you tried to jump the terminal on the pressure switch, which is located on the accumulator?

good question :)
no, i haven't, not sure where that pressure switch exactly is. need to take another look. by jumping you mean shorting it with a paper clip or rather applying battery voltage to terminals ?

so far i have seen only 2 high pressure ports/pipes on windshield side and 1 low pressure port/pipe on opposite side of accumulator (it's an R12 model). and the mounting bracket at lower part of it.

I looked through my Bonyville Haynes, but it sucks honestly per a/c system troubleshooting (nothing in there).

on running engine i tried "pushing" the compressor pulley with long plastic stick and it rotates freely, so nothing is seized up, i think it's not getting power or something inside it failed and e.g. clutch doesn't engage.

are there any other fuses or relays that I should check besides the switch you mentioned ? i guess i will need to run through all fuses in cabin on both driver and passenger side behind the knee panels.

You need to remove the shroud from the fuse/relay panel under the hood. Once removed, you can see the accumulator, with the switch on the side. You can use a "paper clip" to jump the terminal, however, it is best to use a fused jumper for this purpose in case something makes contact with ground. BTW, have you removed the negative (-) battery cable and let it set for a few minutes before reconnecting? If not, try that first. BTW, be sure the climate control is set to OFF (with engine running) before removing the cable.

You need to remove the shroud from the fuse/relay panel under the hood. Once removed, you can see the accumulator, with the switch on the side. You can use a "paper clip" to jump the terminal, however, it is best to use a fused jumper for this purpose in case something makes contact with ground. BTW, have you removed the negative (-) battery cable and let it set for a few minutes before reconnecting? If not, try that first. BTW, be sure the climate control is set to OFF (with engine running) before removing the cable.

ok, did as you asked. first i made sure climate control is set to off on running engine. then shut it down and removed battery negative for 5 mins.
reconnected, restarted and checked if compressor starts after switching control to max or norm (with fans at full blast) - still nothing.

I found the switch on accumulator, i though it was second high pressure pipe before, did not notice wires coming out of it.
anyways i shorted it with paper clip on running engine and still compressor does not turn. is it dead ?

'92 C/H cars were famous for bad a/c relays- on relay center rack-top of fiewall-- should be first on your left-- tap on relay- if compressor comes on- then you have your answer...

'92 C/H cars were famous for bad a/c relays- on relay center rack-top of fiewall-- should be first on your left-- tap on relay- if compressor comes on- then you have your answer...



That's a really good point about the relays. The standard AC units used that relay to turn the compressor on and off while cycling IIRC from my 93.

The relays in the MaxiFuse Center are mostly the same part number. So the poster can switch the next one for the first one and see if that makes the unit turn on. IF it doesn't they should bypass the pressure switch to see if it turns on with a different relay.

The relays slide in with a spring bar that snaps over a hook. To remove use a steak knife blade to hold that spring up so the relay pulls out. Ask me how I learned that the hard way.

Hope the relay fixes your problem.

'92 C/H cars were famous for bad a/c relays- on relay center rack-top of fiewall-- should be first on your left-- tap on relay- if compressor comes on- then you have your answer...

checked all fuses and relays over there. all fuses look like new probably previous owner replaced them before me long time ago. 30a a/c fuse is OK.
i tapped all relays and nothing happened. i have to admit that first replay occupies actually first 2 spots in relay rack and this one looks like an aftermarket replacement, anyways tapping it didn't help.

should i test it any further or give up ?

That's a really good point about the relays. The standard AC units used that relay to turn the compressor on and off while cycling IIRC from my 93.

The relays in the MaxiFuse Center are mostly the same part number. So the poster can switch the next one for the first one and see if that makes the unit turn on. IF it doesn't they should bypass the pressure switch to see if it turns on with a different relay.

The relays slide in with a spring bar that snaps over a hook. To remove use a steak knife blade to hold that spring up so the relay pulls out. Ask me how I learned that the hard way.

Hope the relay fixes your problem.

hmm, i didn't know they are all same kind (originally). mine first seems different, also seems like no. 2 is empty, but since it was like that when everything worked i assume it was supposed to be an empty spot (first one lays across 2 first spots, it's not clipped in bracket. i will try swapping them later to see if it helps. thanks.

i swapped first and last relay. original relays have 5 prongs, however sockets have only 4 of them, so aftermarket Bosch relay (with VW and Audi logos on it) with 4 prongs sitting in first spot has same connections after all.
anyways, i swapped first and last and still compressor wouldn't budge. i guess this is it then, compressor fried ?

any other suggestions ?

To test whether the clutch will engage you can remove the compressor wire harness on top, then attach two jumpers to the terminals. Run one to negative on the battery and then carefully touch the other to the positive terminal of the battery briefly. Just long enough to see if it does anything. If you hear a big click then it would engage if it were getting power. If it does engage you need to check your AC relays, your AC control unit, your wiring, your switch on your accumulator, and also another switch on the back of the compressor. Between all these things, one will be the culprit (assuming your compressor is good that is.)

To test whether the clutch will engage you can remove the compressor wire harness on top, then attach two jumpers to the terminals. Run one to negative on the battery and then carefully touch the other to the positive terminal of the battery briefly. Just long enough to see if it does anything. If you hear a big click then it would engage if it were getting power. If it does engage you need to check your AC relays, your AC control unit, your wiring, your switch on your accumulator, and also another switch on the back of the compressor. Between all these things, one will be the culprit (assuming your compressor is good that is.)

thanks!

will do some more testing in spare time. this car is currently my daily driver, but i still got some work to do (EGR sub-system failing) on my other ride (wife's daily driver). once i complete that i will start poking around with a/c system on buick. would be nice to get a/c working again, last summer sucked balls ...

ok, so i wasn't able to check voltage at electrical connector on top of compressor (or jumper socket terminals to battery), because i wasn't able yet to remove it. seems like the plastic flap is broken, that's why i cannot detach it. i don't want to rip it out, so idk, maybe i will try prying it on sides with a small screw driver next ?

need to figure it out if i want to test for power.

anyways i spotted dozens of problems on this car when poking around. it's a neglected old car, was close to junking it a few times already hehe.... wondering if it lives til Fall when i want to get rid off it.

biggest problem i noticed is that the radiator cooling fans (both large and small one) do NOT ever turn. since car is a short distance daily driver only that is not a huge problem (yet), but i assume that longer city driving would overheat the engine pretty quickly.

I have checked all large fuses under hood in Main Fuse/Relay Compartment under hood at firewall and all fuses in the driver side instrument panel - all looked good and tested good with a self powered test lamp.

I'm not sure about relays at all,it's possible I have more than one failed relay and i simply swapped a bad one with a bad one (swapped 1st and last).

are there anymore fuses/relays that i should check, e.g. on passenger side behind the kick/knee panel ? i know there are some fuses in there as i was disabling the fuel pump by pulling fuse in there (when changing the fuel filter last summer). will check that next.

any ideas what fuses/relays i need to check for the radiator fans ?
i think i might need to check all relays under hood by testing them energized (control circuit) to battery terminals for continuity on the power circuit.

does anyone know what each relay is for ? car has no ABS, so i assume that explain an empty spot in #2 i think.

does it have anything in common with a fact that A/C compressor (pulley moves freely when i push it by hand, so nothing seized up) will not kick in ?

i'd like to make sure the engine cooling system works (it's never been flushed so probably it's full of silica deposits anyways), as this engine has already a bunch of serious oil leaks that i'm not going to repair, but would like to keep it alive for a few more months if possible.

thanks.

P.S. i know this car is dying slowly since some time, just trying to fix easily what i can if possible. will be getting rid off it by the end of the year regardless, car is no longer safe with poor brakes and worn suspension (i don't even drive it in highways anymore), but having faulty cooling system makes it a suicide to drive locally in city.

where is the AC control unit by the way ? do you mean the HVAC controls on dash (center of it) ?

i also found this description of relays:

On the ac compressor,the relay is located at the underhood relay center at the firewall,the ac comp clutch relay when counting from left to right is in position #1,you can attempt to swap it with another relay of the same type to check if the clutch engages,position #2 is the horn relay #3 is the blower relay #4 is the blower off relay #5 is ABS relay #6 ABS pump relay #7 high speed cooling fan #8 low speed cooling fan.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Oldsmobile-Buick-Repair-826/1992-Buick-LeSabre-3.htm

not 100% sure if this is it, because i have an empty spot for relay #2 as far as i can remember and that would point to the horn relay (horn works).
however 1st and last (i tried swapping them) would fit (a/c and cooling fans) would match IF i have both bad LOL... need to check that again. probably will be jumpering all relays' control circuits to the battery and testing for continuity on power circuits, no other way.

Relay digram for manual A/C fan speed control. If you
have auto climate control, the 3rd & 4th relay (from left)
will be missing.
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6510/buickblowerrelay502chj8.jpg

thanks HotZ28 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=297374) !

i think i have a manual a/c control. not sure how the automatic one looks like on this model (i thought automatics were digital and introduced in late 90's ... )

will take a picture of my relay center and a/c controls tomorrow, so you can confirm what i have.

so far was only able to double-check all fuses and they all are good. didn't have time yet to test the relays.

does all of those cars have ABS ? i think mine doesn't, where would be the ABS actuator located?

tested all relays in Main Fuse/Relay Center by firewall in engine bay. ALL TESTED good! i was testing them by connecting control circuit pins to battery and then checking for continuity with meter on other pins, all relays click when battery voltage is applied and continuity (around 9ohm) shows up on the other 2 pins.

since i'm missing 2 relays sockets from total of 8 then I guess it confirms there is no ABS in this car (also brake lines go straight to wheels, not through abs actuator which i don't have).

not sure if order of relays wasn't changed by someone before me, so i took pics of each relay socket showing wire colors, starting from left to right.

#1 a/c compressor clutch (this one was aftermarket bosch, i swapped it with last low speed fan relay which was still original, no change).
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9936/photo0001p.jpg

#2 horn
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5066/photo0002ts.jpg

#3 cabin blower on
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/7817/photo0003a.jpg

#4 cabin blower off
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/7817/photo0003a.jpg

#5 high speed cooling fan
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6658/photo0005z.jpg

#6 low speed cooling fan
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2541/photo0006n.jpg

this is how the aftermarket relay (Bosch, VW/Audi) looks like, it has exact same number by used prongs, so i guess it's also good per all parameters. it works fine. it was mounted in a/c compressor clutch relay socket, i moved it to low speed cooling fan for now (makes no difference either).

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/5310/photo0008ct.jpg

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/4301/photo0009a.jpg

and this how my dash a/c control panel (HVAC) controls look like.
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/4748/photo0007u.jpg

I made a test for continuity on a/c compressor clutch relay socket (control circuit prongs) when a/c controls and fans were set at full blast (low pressure sensor on accumulator jumpered) on running engine and seems there is no power on a/c clutch relay (control circuit).

since i have tested and double checked all relays in engine bay and all fuses both in engine bay and in cabin (instrument panels on both driver and passenger sides) i could find, does it mean that a/c controls are broken ? is there a relay for them ?

I see that a/c compressor pulley turns freely when i push it, so probably the electromagnetic clutch is not getting power (relay doesn't for sure). please advise if it's worth it to fix/check anything further (a/c controls relay ? motor ? another fuse or something ?).

i'd like to know if i can get a/c working on this car again, as summer is toasting hot by now and it's very uncomfy to drive this buick...

sorry for super long post, i hope all pictures are helpful.

thanks you for your help.

If the relay is not getting power, consequently the A/C clutch will not get power. Apparently, your control head is not sending voltage to the relay? If you do not want to replace the control head, you could use a fused toggle switch to apply power to the relay, which in turn should energize the relay and send power to the clutch. There is more than one way to skin a cat!

thanks :)

i am just worried as i have no idea how to test or remove the control head. any idea if it was described in Haynes somewhere ?
i could try getting a replacement new control head from some junk yard, ebay or somewhere, but first i need a part number and removal procedure :)

all depends on the price and complication factor ;)

92 buick lesabre limited 3.8L - A/C & Heater Controls Part Number: 16145214 (is this a manual control i have?)
i wonder if that is it what i need ?
[Limited, man cont (C67) ]

I found some general removal procedure in haynes, page 3-7, doesn't seem to be very hard.

Yes, the C67 is described as "HVAC system with electronic controls" (with manual fan control) Is that the system (C67) your SPID sticker shows on your spare tire cover? BTW, when you press the MAX button, does the LED in the button come on?

good question. i have no idea. will have to check ... once i unload all the crap (tools, jack, stands, etc.) from my trunk ...

found this on ebay (ended old auction):
http://global.ebay.com/92-94_BUICK_LESABRE_HEATER_AC_CLIMATE_CONTROL_SWITCH/360260113010/item

this is exactly my control unit. question is if there is anything more to that or just that control unit is bad ? i would hate to see new replacement unit installed and still having same problem ...

all i know is that rear defroster was working intermittently since i got this car like 6 yrs ago. i had to press defroster button like 3-4 times in a row to get it running in winter ... i'm unsure if it even was working at all last winter. also the button lights on control panel tend to disappear sometimes with no reason (with e.g. vent or a/c on) ... i mean like it confirms the control unit is bad, right ?

i've seen in haynes that some other buick models use some crazy vacuum connections on the back of control unit, this is not the case with this one right ? because if there are any vacuum connections to it i would have to check them all first ...

question is if there is anything more to that or just that control unit is bad ? i would hate to see new replacement unit installed and still having same problem ...Hard to say from here. Have you tried jumping the relay as suggested earlier?

you mean jumpering the clutch terminals on a/c compressor body to the battery posts, right ?

no i haven't done that, because there is a problem with removing the wire connector from it, don't want to destroy it. didn't have time yet to figure out how to unplug it safely.

No, I was thinking of the clutch relay. BTW, you could follow the wire from the clutch back far enough so you can easily get to a place to strip enough insulation to jump from the battery. It would be nice if you can verify if the clutch will engage with power applied.

nah, haven't done that either. i think i will rather try jumpering it straight to battery (briefly) to see if it engages and starts the compressor to spin. if that works, then i just need to find a cheap replacement part.

new part is ridiculously expensive ($380 up to $800 whcih exceeds the KBB value of my car hahaha!), then junk yards have expensive prices (~$100-200) ... and ebay sellers (also junk yard pulls) seem to sell only automatic hvac control units. emailed a few of them to see if they carry manual controls as well. time will tell.

in case someone else readin this thread is looking for part number info, this is what i got (includes model compatibility):

SPID C67

HEATER AC CONTROL

Mfg p/n 16145214
ACDelco 15-71887

This part is compatible with the following vehicles:

# 1992 BUICK LESABRE V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin L
# 1992 BUICK PARK AVENUE V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin L
# 1992 BUICK PARK AVENUE ULTRA V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Supercharged Vin 1 (ULTRA)
# 1993 BUICK LESABRE V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin L
# 1993 BUICK PARK AVENUE V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin L
# 1993 BUICK PARK AVENUE ULTRA V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Supercharged Vin 1 (ULTRA)
# 1994 BUICK LESABRE V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin L
# 1994 BUICK PARK AVENUE V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Vin L
# 1994 BUICK PARK AVENUE ULTRA V6-231ci 3.8L F/I Supercharged Vin 1 (ULTRA)

ok. did not have time to play with ac clutch electrical connector, so i jumpered the ac clutch relay socket (and accumulator low pressure switch just to be sure) and violla compressor started spinning :)

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3876/photo0001g.jpg

i need a cheap replacement HVAC module (heater ac control as above).

To get your control unit out, do the following:
1. Pull straight back on both fake wood trim pieces running along the middle of the dash. They will come out. Grab the end side first and give it a tug.
2. Open your glove box and remove the two screws on the top left and right.
3. Take a flat head screwdriver and put it just above each ac vent's moveable part (the whole black piece) and put it in about 1/2 inch or so and push down while pulling back the top with your fingers until it snaps out of its holder. It helps to have the vent not straight, but turned partially to one side or the other. You can then pull the vent out from the top with your fingers.
4. Once all four vents are out use a 7mm socket, OR a T-15 Torx screwdriver and remove the four screws inside and along the top wall of the vent holes.
5. Remove the two or three screws holding the bottom of the glove box to the dash (note: do not remove the door of the glove box from the glove box) They are under where the fake wood trim used to be.
6. With the glove box out, you now focus on the large black trim/dash piece that is covering the radio/heat control/instrument cluster area/etc.
7. Remove all screws holding the large black plastic piece to the dash where the wood trim used to be. There are about 4-5 screws in the this area total. There are two to the left of the steering wheel (I think) and three to the right (I think.)
8. There are still two screws to remove above the steering wheel and instrument cluster (speedometer area.) See two holes on the "ceiling" of the black piece? Take those two screws out.
9. Put your key in the ignition, foot on the brake, turn key to run position, put car in 1 gear (all the way down,) tilt the steering wheel all the way down, and remove the large black plastic piece that is the left side of your dash.
10. You now have open access to your ac control unit. There are three screws holding it in place.
11. Once the screws are out remove the wire harnesses from the back.

But, before removing it test it. How? Too long to describe here but it is all in the factory service manuals. Get them off ebay. There is a regular manual and an ESM. Both make up the complete "service manual." There are specific tests in the manual for the head unit. It is better to test it than blindly replace it. And you will likely use the manuals much if you retain this car for a while.

Disconnect the jumper on the pressure switch and see if the compressor will still engage. BTW, the control unit will not command the compressor relay to engage unless low line pressure is within operating range. Question is, what is the low side pressure, have you checked that?

Disconnect the jumper on the pressure switch and see if the compressor will still engage.

yes it does.

spinne1 thanks for detailed instructions on head unit removal!! :)

BTW, the control unit will not command the compressor relay to engage unless low line pressure is within operating range. Question is, what is the low side pressure, have you checked that?

i don't know, haven't checked the pressure on low side with compressor spinning. later on may try again, it's too hot now (97F) in Jersey ...:smokin:

soooo, i checked the pressure on port on pipe (by accumulator but not on it) and it reads zero ...

then tried adding more gas (got last can of freeze 12 left) but i lost the can fitting ... hehe funny ... went to autozone to see if they carry such things, but they were closed already (4th of july) ... and locked myself out of car (left door key inside) LOL... good thing a friend was staying home, so he cam to aid me, eventually (with his tools) we were able to open the car without breaking glass, i lost only piece of chrome trim around driver rear door, put it back on duck tape haha LOL (this car looks like shit anyways hehe) ... then we went drinking to celebrate the happy end ... what a story :)

in morning, will try finding the gas can fitting and adding gas to a/c (with compressor spinning), maybe my gauge is broken (a/c starts with jumpered relay, no need to jumper low pressure switch). need to take some sleep, will post back in a few.

If the compressor spins with the connector to the pressure switch connected (not jumped); that would indicate the system pressure is within range, (unless the switch is bad.) When the compressor is engaged, do you have cool vent air? In addition, it sounds like your gage should be verified for accuracy. Normally on an R12 system, (with compressor engaged) & system stabilized for 10-min, the low side pressure of a filled system should range between 30-34 psi. and the accumulator would be very cold to the touch, along with visible signs of sweating.

well no happy end here after all. i found the gas can fitting and loaded last can of Freeze 12 into the system on spinning compressor (after like 15 mins of cycling with a shorted relay).

a/c started working a little, but only temporarily unfortunately. pressure readin was low like 10-15psi (on running system at full blast).
once i shut down the engine (like 30 mins later) i heard a loud hissing noise from compressor area. then i restarted it (with normal relay, no more jumpered) and saw compressor engaging by itself, though after i took it for a short highway walk all the gas leaked out. pressure zero again, and compressor does not engage by itself again (no gas again).

this ac system is beyond cheap fix methods, the compressor unit (or some seals) would need a replacement and i'm not going to do it.
will have to live with it until i junk/sell this car.

thanks for all your help guys! appreciate it very much. now i know what i am standing on.

It sounds like the high pressure relief valve opened, an indication of a clogged expansion valve (orifice screen). More than likely, the compressor is worn out & spewing contamination throughout the system (Black Death)!

i agree the compressor sound like a real problem (internally). also heard sort of a ticking when compressor was cycling with almost no gas/pressure before loading freeze 12.
also once i started loading freeze 12 the compressor started running more quiet, but it did something crazy, like it spit (internally) and it caused almost the whole engine to stall (almost) then it all started running (until gas leaked out). maybe even some gasket got blown.

either way i'm not pursuing it any further that this :)