body alignment issues please help.

hello
Can you guys please tell me when would a car need a chassis alignment?
And what is chassis alignment? is it different than wheel alignment?
REASON I asked is because my car is sitting tilted on driver side about 2 inches or so. The rear driver side wheel fender skirt is about an inch farther than the other side!!! I am talking about the space between the wheel and fender skirt! to simplify The space in between rear fender skirt and wheel is more on driver side than passenger side. Can someone tell me why is that so? What do I need to check? Do I need to replace body mount bushings? or an alignment should do it?

Thanks
Please help.

Check all four springs, their mounts, the control arms and bushings, and the body/frame mounts. The body mount bushings are only about 3/4" thick, and wouldn't account for the drop you are indicating.

Check all four springs, their mounts, the control arms and bushings, and the body/frame mounts. The body mount bushings are only about 3/4" thick, and wouldn't account for the drop you are indicating.
Thanks
Can you please tell me, the body/frame mounts you indicated, now are these different than body mount bushings? If they are can you point me to a website where I can get these?
Also how do the springs have mounts? I replaced the rear coil springs and I didnt see anything other than the springs!!!:frown:
Thanks

what is the yr vehicle ? what size tires ? did this just occur recently ?

hello
Can you guys please tell me when would a car need a chassis alignment?
And what is chassis alignment? is it different than wheel alignment?
REASON I asked is because my car is sitting tilted on driver side about 2 inches or so. The rear driver side wheel fender skirt is about an inch farther than the other side!!! I am talking about the space between the wheel and fender skirt! to simplify The space in between rear fender skirt and wheel is more on driver side than passenger side. Can someone tell me why is that so? What do I need to check? Do I need to replace body mount bushings? or an alignment should do it?

Thanks
Please help.


if this is that 1991 caprice I would guess this is a frame and body mount rust metal corrosion issue...

between the frame [the heavy thick steel ] and the body metal [light thin metal ] are rubber mounts placed between these two ..at about 14 or so places under the perimeter of the vehicle..when the body metal rusts out the body will not set correctly on the frame ...

normally this would not be a repairable condition ...this would far exceed the vehicles value ..

yes this is 1991 caprice sedan
no this I noticed after an accident my brother had with it a few years ago. But I did not notice it until a year after the accident because the vehicle was on stock springs so I didnt notice it. But when I changed to lowered springs I noticed it easily. At first I thought it might have the shocks, so I replaced them but no it still is there and I noticed the body from the frame is shifted an inch or so to the left. so I was thinking it may have been that the body mounts are gone bad. I don't know what to do :(

so if i replace the body mounts! it wouldn't fix it? my car is not that rusty actually.
I checked for body mounts here http://www.autopartsdeal.com/catalog/?N=0&uts=true&Ntt=1996+Chevrolet+Caprice+Energy+Susp+Body+Mount+ Kit
can you tell me if these are the ones you guys talking about?

Did you clock the springs when you put them in? The rears are supposed to be oriented a certain way not just slid in place.

Did you clock the springs when you put them in? The rears are supposed to be oriented a certain way not just slid in place.
No I didnt do anything, i just put it in. Can you please explain what do you mean by CLOCK THE SPRINGS? I will reinstall it that way but you will have to tell me in detail please, thanks

BUT TO TELL YOU, THE DRIVER SIDE WAS LOWER EVEN WHEN I HAD THE LOWERING SPRINGS BUT I DIDNT NOTICE THE 1 INCH SPACE I HAVE NOTICED NOW BETWEEN THE REAR FENDER SKIRT AND THE WHEEL. I NOTICED THIS SPACE TWO DAYS AGO.

yes this is 1991 caprice sedan
no this I noticed after an accident my brother had with it a few years ago. But I did not notice it until a year after the accident because the vehicle was on stock springs so I didnt notice it. But when I changed to lowered springs I noticed it easily. At first I thought it might have the shocks, so I replaced them but no it still is there and I noticed the body from the frame is shifted an inch or so to the left. so I was thinking it may have been that the body mounts are gone bad. I don't know what to do :(

so if i replace the body mounts! it wouldn't fix it? my car is not that rusty actually.
I checked for body mounts here http://www.autopartsdeal.com/catalog/?N=0&uts=true&Ntt=1996+Chevrolet+Caprice+Energy+Susp+Body+Mount+ Kit
can you tell me if these are the ones you guys talking about?


those are the bushings for the body mount/supports....

so you are saying that all these body mount bushing metal structures that support these bushings are not rusted out ...if so then the lowering springs may be installed wrong or are broken...

Also Try Replacing The Shocks. The Passenger Side Of My Caprice Did The Same Thing Until I Replaced Them.

Also Try Replacing The Shocks. The Passenger Side Of My Caprice Did The Same Thing Until I Replaced Them.
I have replaced all four shocks with bilstein hds, the only thing left is replacing the front coil springs from lowered to stock, but even if that might change the height, WHAT ABOUT THE space I noticed between rear fender skirt and the wheel???? like i mentioned there is about 1 inch more space on left side than the right in the rear :S

where do i get body mounts then?? can you give me a website where i can see them? thanks

I have replaced all four shocks with bilstein hds, the only thing left is replacing the front coil springs from lowered to stock, but even if that might change the height, WHAT ABOUT THE space I noticed between rear fender skirt and the wheel???? like i mentioned there is about 1 inch more space on left side than the right in the rear :S

where do i get body mounts then?? can you give me a website where i can see them? thanks


the other componet that can do this is ,,, the rear end support beams...these on 20yr old GM rear wheel drive vehicles these rust out , causing this condition, on the rear wheel /fender clearance ...but you have no rust on this 20 yr old caprice so it can't be that ...

possible the rear end beam , rubber bushings are broken

I noticed it after an accident my brother had with it a few years ago.

How bad was the hit, could have bent the frame, front spindle or control arms.
Was it checked by a body shop after the accident? :2cents:

the other componet that can do this is ,,, the rear end support beams...these on 20yr old GM rear wheel drive vehicles these rust out , causing this condition, on the rear wheel /fender clearance ...but you have no rust on this 20 yr old caprice so it can't be that ...

possible the rear end beam , rubber bushings are broken

Are you referring to the rubber body mount bushings? and the rear end beam! what is that? can it be replaced as well?

How bad was the hit, could have bent the frame, front spindle or control arms.
Was it checked by a body shop after the accident? :2cents:
You know what , the accident was bad it was front end hitting a red light pole, but it was still drivable, though the shop charged us $2000 for repair which we did, its my first car and back then i had just bought this car and just started driving when i had the accident, so i didnt care about how much the repair cost. I think the body shop did there job, though what sucks is I don't remember this thing after almost a couple years.
Then after 3 years of this accident i had another incident where the car slipped on a rainy day and went in to a ditch front first but the only thing i noticed was the radiator fan was hitting the cover, i didnt look for the driver side being low. I don;t want to go to a shop because i know they would charge me alot just finding the problem.

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but that car has coil springs and a panhard bar or trackarm to hold the differential in the center of the vehicle correct? If you put lowering springs in without accounting for the track-arm length your rear differential will be moved over simply because the track-arm is in a different position. You may need to get an adjustable track-arm if you want the wheels perfectly centered in relation to the fender skirts.

You know what , the accident was bad it was front end hitting a red light pole, but it was still drivable,

Then after 3 years of this accident i had another incident where the car slipped on a rainy day and went in to a ditch front first but the only thing i noticed was the radiator fan was hitting the cover,

With the radiator fan hitting the cover, it is a sure indication that something got bent in the accident.
Have a body shop check the frame for straightness..

When i purchased my 89 mustang, the owner had spun the car out in the rain and hit a curb on the right front, it was still drivable however it was pulling hard to the right.
I had the frame checked by a body shop and they said the frame rails were not bent. I then proceeded to replace my K member, spindle, and lower control arms before having an alignment done. That fixed the problem.

With the radiator fan hitting the cover, it is a sure indication that something got bent in the accident.
Have a body shop check the frame for straightness..

When i purchased my 89 mustang, the owner had spun the car out in the rain and hit a curb on the right front, it was still drivable however it was pulling hard to the right.
I had the frame checked by a body shop and they said the frame rails were not bent. I then proceeded to replace my K member, spindle, and lower control arms before having an alignment done. That fixed the problem.

May be I should have the frame check first, do you if you were charged for having you frame checked for straightness? I am a student so I don't have much to spare, that is why I am asking it everywhere to see the least cost effective way of ATLEAST finding out the problem. You know taking it to a shop they take forever and charge you so much just for a simple thing they probably already know.

I will be doing an alignment on all four wheels, I am just waiting for the guy to replace my front coil springs, then I will proceed with a alignment.

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but that car has coil springs and a panhard bar or trackarm to hold the differential in the center of the vehicle correct? If you put lowering springs in without accounting for the track-arm length your rear differential will be moved over simply because the track-arm is in a different position. You may need to get an adjustable track-arm if you want the wheels perfectly centered in relation to the fender skirts.

I have replaced my rear lowered coil springs with stock height springs. so I don't need to replace to an adjustable track-arm. CORRECT?

I will be doing an alignment on all four wheels, I am just waiting for the guy to replace my front coil springs, then I will proceed with a alignment.

your vehicle only has a 2 wheel alignment period....the front wheels are adjusted only period...



I if I had your ability understanding of motor vehicles ... I would go to a body shop , that has a frame straightening machine , to see if /what is wrong with the wheel/body miss alignment...

May be I should have the frame check first, do you if you were charged for having you frame checked for straightness? I am a student so I don't have much to spare, that is why I am asking it everywhere to see the least cost effective way of ATLEAST finding out the problem. You know taking it to a shop they take forever and charge you so much just for a simple thing they probably already know.

I will be doing an alignment on all four wheels, I am just waiting for the guy to replace my front coil springs, then I will proceed with a alignment.

Have the frame checked first.

It does not take that long to do so a body shop may only charge for 1 or 2 hours x their hourly rate, say $60/hour. Tell them you may have them paint your car in the future and they may do it for free.
I was not charged to have mine checked because I told them I was referred by my alignment shop who the owner knows. I guess i got lucky there.

You can only align the front wheels.

your vehicle only has a 2 wheel alignment period....the front wheels are adjusted only period...



I if I had your ability understanding of motor vehicles ... I would go to a body shop , that has a frame straightening machine , to see if /what is wrong with the wheel/body miss alignment...

Have the frame checked first.

It does not take that long to do so a body shop may only charge for 1 or 2 hours x their hourly rate, say $60/hour. Tell them you may have them paint your car in the future and they may do it for free.
I was not charged to have mine checked because I told them I was referred by my alignment shop who the owner knows. I guess i got lucky there.

You can only align the front wheels.

I believe that leaves me the only option to have a body shop look at the frame and if it needs adjustment. But finding one with the frame straightening machine is the problem.

I will do the front wheel alignment because I have replaced the inner/outer tie rod ends and I will have the springs replaced as well this week or so, and I can SEE IT THE FRONT WHEELS AREN'T SITTING ALIGNED, ITS VISUALLY VISIBLE one wheel is sitting a little right and the other one is sitting a little left, so that means alignment is OFF. once that is done and I am on the road safe, I will take it to a body shop and have the frame checked. BUT would this ever be because of the body mounts that the frame is shifted a little to the right?
and nobody mentioned the difference between body mounts & body mount bushings?:confused:

I believe that leaves me the only option to have a body shop look at the frame and if it needs adjustment. But finding one with the frame straightening machine is the problem.

I will do the front wheel alignment because I have replaced the inner/outer tie rod ends and I will have the springs replaced as well this week or so, and I can SEE IT THE FRONT WHEELS AREN'T SITTING ALIGNED, ITS VISUALLY VISIBLE one wheel is sitting a little right and the other one is sitting a little left, so that means alignment is OFF. once that is done and I am on the road safe, I will take it to a body shop and have the frame checked. BUT would this ever be because of the body mounts that the frame is shifted a little to the right?
and nobody mentioned the difference between body mounts & body mount bushings?:confused:

the reason I said a body shop with the frame machine is because that is what they do...any body hardware defective they will quickly determine your problem...with your discriptions hard to tell from here whats up EXACTLY...


FRAME FIRST....if they say the frame and hardware/bushings ok or they fix it all then you get the wheel alignment...

also when springs are replaced wheel alignment is required...

...and nobody mentioned the difference between body mounts & body mount bushings?:confused:

The body mounts are riveted to the frame rails. They are the base upon which sits the rubber body mount bushing.

The body mounts are riveted to the frame rails. They are the base upon which sits the rubber body mount bushing.

Thank you for clearing that up.
I tried searching for it, but unfortunately only thing i find is body mount bushings, would anyone know where to get them?

You can get them at a dealer, p/n 00457915:

http://www.wwdsltd.com/files/BodyBushings.jpg

The problem may not be those bushings, however.

you could have a busted coil spring or just plain wore out. try having someone going down the road behind you and see if it twisted since you have wrecked it a couple times.

You can get them at a dealer, p/n 00457915:

http://www.wwdsltd.com/files/BodyBushings.jpg

The problem may not be those bushings, however.

So these are different than the ones here http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=3%2E4145
??

Yes, the factory bushings are different. The factory bushings are actually three different thicknesses and are pink, blue, and green coded if I recall correctly. Somewhere on the interwebs is an in-depth article by Scott Mueller detailing just what and how to fix the body mount bushing problem. The factory intentionally left a lot of these bushings out during the assembly process to soften the ride and deaden body noise.

However, your problem may be something completely unrelated to these bushings and mounts.

the reason I said a body shop with the frame machine is because that is what they do...any body hardware defective they will quickly determine your problem...with your discriptions hard to tell from here whats up EXACTLY...


FRAME FIRST....if they say the frame and hardware/bushings ok or they fix it all then you get the wheel alignment...

also when springs are replaced wheel alignment is required...
I have a question

WHO IS BETTER TO GO TO? A BODY FRAME SHOP WITH? A 3 dimensional measuring system with 4 point anchoring system $120 FLAT FOR 2HR, OR A BODY FRAME SHOP WITH LASER EQUIPPED FRAME MACHINE AT $75/HR (3 HOUR JOB)
Anyone has been to any of those 2 and would recommend for me for this problem?

Thanks

I have a question

WHO IS BETTER TO GO TO? A BODY FRAME SHOP WITH? A 3 dimensional measuring system with 4 point anchoring system $120 FLAT FOR 2HR, OR A BODY FRAME SHOP WITH LASER EQUIPPED FRAME MACHINE AT $75/HR (3 HOUR JOB)
Anyone has been to any of those 2 and would recommend for me for this problem?

Thanks

I would explain that you want to have them determine if the vehicle needs any body support / frame work ...then give the reasonb why you feel this is the reason you are in need of this..

when they lift the vehicle they will inspect all the componets we here at the forum mentioned ..if any are defective they will repair..after all this is done then the frame machine should be used to check the geometery of the frame for distortions...

start talking price on repairs etc...after they give it a 15-20 min inspection !

I would explain that you want to have them determine if the vehicle needs any body support / frame work ...then give the reasonb why you feel this is the reason you are in need of this..

when they lift the vehicle they will inspect all the componets we here at the forum mentioned ..if any are defective they will repair..after all this is done then the frame machine should be used to check the geometery of the frame for distortions...

start talking price on repairs etc...after they give it a 15-20 min inspection !

Thanks got you on that :)
BUT there two types of frame machine that I have found here close to my my place, as I mentioned one is A 3 dimensional measuring system with 4 point anchoring system OR A BODY FRAME SHOP WITH LASER EQUIPPED FRAME MACHINE? now which one would give the best result if a frame is damaged?

In my experience it isn't the equipment that makes the difference but the technician. A brand new, state of the art, fully automatic and computerized piece of equipment is only as good as the operator. Too often the equipment becomes a crutch.

A technician with a good set of tables, a little understanding of what he/she is doing, and a tape measure can do a better job than the brand new whiz-bang POS machine with a lazy, untrained, or incapable operator. People used to get frames and bodies nearly perfect and would even correct factory defects on the old Bear machines with movable jigs, mechanical gauge pins, and plain old scales. Some of the "straight" bodies coming out of repair these days eat tires and wheel bearings in 10,000 miles, ride like a porpoise in a tropical storm, run down the road like a kicked dog, and steer on dry pavement like a kid's Big Wheel on wet ice.

Ask around your area for who is and isn't satisfied. Check with some local body shops to see where they send their subcontract frame work and why. You'll probably find that the type of equipment is secondary.

I AGREE ...with you on this "which one".

lasers or the older machine will do the job very accuately if the operator is careful in his use of these devices..

which has the better customer satisfaction is the choice factor..

A technician with a good set of tables, a little understanding of what he/she is doing, and a tape measure can do a better job than the brand new whiz-bang POS machine.

That's all it should take..



brand new whiz-bang POS machine.

I think they call this progress..:sarcasm1:

[quote=Blue Bowtie;6387682]In my experience it isn't the equipment that makes the difference but the technician. A brand new, state of the art, fully automatic and computerized piece of equipment is only as good as the operator. Too often the equipment becomes a crutch.

A technician with a good set of tables, a little understanding of what he/she is doing, and a tape measure can do a better job than the brand new whiz-bang POS machine with a lazy, untrained, or incapable operator. People used to get frames and bodies nearly perfect and would even correct factory defects on the old Bear machines with movable jigs, mechanical gauge pins, and plain old scales. Some of the "straight" bodies coming out of repair these days eat tires and wheel bearings in 10,000 miles, ride like a porpoise in a tropical storm, run down the road like a kicked dog, and steer on dry pavement like a kid's Big Wheel on wet ice.

Ask around your area for who is and isn't satisfied. Check with some local body shops to see where they send their subcontract frame work and why. You'll probably find that the type of equipment is secondary.[/quote/]

you got that rite on knowing how to use machine and being albe to fix it to. and our ASE patch and paper don't mean shit if you cant do the job.

Do you guys think if I buy this kit here
http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=PackageDeal052
Would I get a better over all handling and control? The car has never been replaced with any of these parts, so do you think it would be worth it if I get that kit and replace it all?
Thanks