'97 Grand prix takes long to start, P0441 DTC and bubbling brake pedal

Hello everybody, this is my second time needing your help and I really want to thank all of you people for your time and efforts to help.

1) My GP takes about 10 seconds cranking the engine so it can start, I noticed that if I turn the switch on and off (without starting the engine) 3 to 4 times in a row it will start inmediatly when I crank the engine. Also when the engine is cold the car will run fine no problems on reving, etc. but as I drive and the engine's temp goes to the normal operating temp (about half of the temp gauge) the car will start running rough and it will take longer to go from 0 to 60 or to reach a cruising speed, sometimes I have to step all the way down the gas pedal in order to have a decent response and sometimes while waiting for the green light at the street the engine's RPM's will alternate between 500 and 1000 until I rev up the engine.

2) Every morning I start the engine and drive, as soon as I shift from (P)arking to (D)rive or (R)everse the brake pedal feels like it is bubbling and becomes hard to brake for about a second. After that it will work fine untill the engine cools down and I drive again.

3) I have a P0441 trouble code wich started yesterday, previously my check engine soon went on, but after an hour of driving it went off, however it came back on yesterday so I had it scanned and the result was the P0441 code. I've read that it is related to the evap system, also today when i came home I noticed a hissing sound coming out from the back of the car near the rear left wheel and a gas smell too, I will check that tomorrow morning. Also my fuel economy has become twice than before.

What Do you guys think about my problems, do my engine poblems can be due to a broken fuel line?, Is there any problem with my ABS system?.

Thanks in advance and hope to hear from anyone soon :lol2:.

Best regards...

Oscar

************************************************** ************************

Everything but the P0441 DTC has been solved thanks to tblake,richtazz, Mickey#1 and doctorhrdware (I'm sorry if I'm missing somebody else). Here is how I fixed each symptom:

1) CAR HARD TO START AND ROUGH RUNNING were due to two different things a broken spark plug wire (thanks to the guy who broke it..) and a fuel pump going bad. I replaced both and the car starts at the first attemp and as soon as I crank the engine.
2) ERRATIC RPM's: MAP sensor was literally broken (same guy who broke the wire form above) and a bad MAF sensor caused this too. using carbuclean on the MAF sensor resulted in good driving for an hour or two, but things went back to previous state after; I ended up replacing it too.
3) BUBBLING BRAKE PEDAL AFTER STARTING THE ENGINE: this wasn't a real problem, this is due to the ABS system making a selftest everytime the car starts.Thanks to tblake for this.
4) HISSING NOISE: once again was due to a bad fuel pump.
5) FUEL SMELL AND LOW FUEL ECONOMY: was due to poor quality spark plug wires and bad spark plugs too.

Pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator, then have an assistant turn the key to on so the pump primes, but don't start. Check the vacuum port of the FPR for fuel contamination.

Pull the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator, then have an assistant turn the key to on so the pump primes, but don't start. Check the vacuum port of the FPR for fuel contamination.

Thanks for your response, I will check that tomorrow, in case of fuel contamination wich of my listed symptoms would correspond to that?.

Best regards...

All you will need to do is just replace the pressure regulator if you have fuel contamination in the vacuum line.

P0441- Evap emissions incorrect purge flow.

This would be the cause of the hissing/gas smell at the left rear corner of the car as that is where the vapor canister is located. This can also cause excessive pressure (positive or negative) to build up in the tank causing fuel delivery issues and the lack of power after the car is warmed up. I would suspect either the purge solenoid is not operating properly or the plastic line between it and the vapor canister is cracked/broken. Checking the FPR is solid advice too. A bad regulator can cause the 3-4 key cycles before it starts issue you're having and the purge issue shouldn't affect cold starting, unless the tank holds the pressure overnight which is unlikely. When you remove the gas cap to refuel, do you notice a strong "whoosh" of air as you open the cap?

All you will need to do is just replace the pressure regulator if you have fuel contamination in the vacuum line.

Hi, thanks for your help I will check that...

P0441- Evap emissions incorrect purge flow.

This would be the cause of the hissing/gas smell at the left rear corner of the car as that is where the vapor canister is located. This can also cause excessive pressure (positive or negative) to build up in the tank causing fuel delivery issues and the lack of power after the car is warmed up. I would suspect either the purge solenoid is not operating properly or the plastic line between it and the vapor canister is cracked/broken. Checking the FPR is solid advice too. A bad regulator can cause the 3-4 key cycles before it starts issue you're having and the purge issue shouldn't affect cold starting, unless the tank holds the pressure overnight which is unlikely. When you remove the gas cap to refuel, do you notice a strong "whoosh" of air as you open the cap?

Hi, thanks for your help, I just checked the gas cap sound and it doesn't do it, is that good or bad?; maybe this can be the problem because is not closing properly?. I'm going to check the FPR, solenoid and the lines. Is there any way to test the FPR and Purge solenoid?.

Best Regards

Oscar

No whoosh means that the pressure isn't holding in the tank overnight, but also do this to check for excessive tank pressure when the car starts acting up. This would push me back toward either a major vacuum leak which I forgot to mention before (as the purge solenoid, FPR and brake booster are all vacuum operated), or a borderline bad fuel pump if the FPR checks out and/or there is no vacuum leak found.

Have you noticed the HVAC system not switching from vent to floor to defrost properly? The mode side of the HVAC system is also vacuum operated and would indicate a vacuum leak if they don't switch.

No whoosh means that the pressure isn't holding in the tank overnight, but also do this to check for excessive tank pressure when the car starts acting up. This would push me back toward either a major vacuum leak which I forgot to mention before (as the purge solenoid, FPR and brake booster are all vacuum operated), or a borderline bad fuel pump if the FPR checks out and/or there is no vacuum leak found.

Have you noticed the HVAC system not switching from vent to floor to defrost properly? The mode side of the HVAC system is also vacuum operated and would indicate a vacuum leak if they don't switch.

Hello again, I just checked the HVAC, they switch well if I change from "vent and floor" to "defrost" but if I do it from "defrost" to "vent to floor" the vents dont' seem to blow enough air, just the floor; I have to go to "just vent" and switch back to "vent to floor" for proper function.

I would focus on looking for vacuum leaks at this point. The HVAC system has a canister that stores vacuum, so it may take time until the canister is depleted for it to stop switching. That may be why it started switching slower.

I would focus on looking for vacuum leaks at this point. The HVAC system has a canister that stores vacuum, so it may take time until the canister is depleted for it to stop switching. That may be why it started switching slower.

I see... and I really don't like the sound of that, any clue about where to start looking? about two years ago my heat core radiator broke, so I bypassed the cooling lines in the drivebelt tensioner, hence there is no more heating to the inside of the car. So could you please give me any ideas about where to start looking?, Do you think it's gonna take long for me to check? Thanks again buddy...

I've just taken apart the fuel canister, if I blow any air through both lines, is one of them supposed to feel blocked? The other lines blows fine and I can listen to some sound in the fuel tank.

P.S I forgot to mention that I think my fuel pump has become kinda noisy, would this mean anything to you?

I see... and I really don't like the sound of that, any clue about where to start looking? about two years ago my heat core radiator broke, so I bypassed the cooling lines in the drivebelt tensioner, hence there is no more heating to the inside of the car. So could you please give me any ideas about where to start looking?, Do you think it's gonna take long for me to check? Thanks again buddy...

I've just taken apart the fuel canister, if I blow any air through both lines, is one of them supposed to feel blocked? The other lines blows fine and I can listen to some sound in the fuel tank.

P.S I forgot to mention that I think my fuel pump has become kinda noisy, would this mean anything to you?

I took the car for a ride and I've found a new symptom, sometimes when I brake at a red light the transmiision feels like it's not disengaging properly for about half a second, just like if I put de car in (D)rive and press the brake and gas pedals at the same time, since there is a vacuum line going to the transmission, would this definitely mean a vacuum line leak and is causing all my problems??

Thanks everyone for your help...

It's me again, I've checked the vacuum lines on the engine and I found a broken 'T' fitting, it is vaccum line that goes into the metallic fuel lines on top of the engine and to the injectors, and at the same time goes into a diaphragm at the transmission. I already had it ordered at the dealer, it should be arriving next saturday. Do you think this might be the cause of my problems?

Thanks everyone in advance.

Best regards...

That would be a good place to start.

Hello guys, I finally replaced the broken vacuum line I found, since the dealer doesn't have the same model anymore some adaptations had to be done in order to fit it to the engine. I uploaded 3 pictures showing wich line was replaced. Also I changed the fuel tank cap just in case, I'll be taking a close look to my car to see if the problems are gone or if there are any remaining symptons. Do you think this might have been the soruce of my problems?.

Thanks everyone for your help. I will post the results tomorrow...

Image showing the replaced T shaped vacuum line (circled)
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/11/hoseinlet.th.jpg (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/hoseinlet.jpg/)

Image showing the left side connector to the injectors:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/20/connector1.th.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/connector1.jpg/)

Image showing the right side connector for the transmission:
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8197/connector2.th.jpg (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/connector2.jpg/)

Looks good. Do you have any more issues?

Looks good. Do you have any more issues?

Hello there, I tested my car today and the gas smell seems to be gone, however the hissing noise coming from the back is still present altough isn't as loud as before and I still have a low fuel economy (1/2 of a tank in one day under moderate use).

Besides, my Service Engine Soon light came on again, I had it scanned and it turns out I have a P0102 code, as i read it is related to the air sensors so I checked the MAF, VAF and MAP sensors as Autozone suggested and I found out my MAP sensor is broken so I will replace it tomorrow.

What symptons can a broken MAP sensor cause?

And finally i found a small leak in the brake fluid reservoir. I already bought it and will replace it tomorrow.

Will this cause a vacuum leak also? Or it will only result in brake power loss?.

I really appreciate your help. Best regards...

Oscar

P.S. I forgot to mention that the brake pedal bubbling seems to be gone, maybe this is just coincidence since there is a leak in the brake fluid reservoir.

Check the MAP sensor's rubber grommit to make sure that it is in good shape and not sucked into the intake.

Check the MAP sensor's rubber grommit to make sure that it is in good shape and not sucked into the intake.

Hi tblake thanks for you help buddy, I replaced the MAP sensor since the old one was literally broken, that solved the P0102 code.

Some of the old symptoms (brake pedal bubbling, fuel smell from the back of the car, RPM's dropping or going to high, having to crank the engine for 10 seconds to start and P0441 code) seem to be gone.

The only remaining symptoms are:
- Hissing sound coming from the rear (doesn't seem to be as loud as before).
- My transmission slipped while I was driving uphill and waiting for green light, I had to change to (N)eutral and back to (D)rive to make it work, again the fluid level is OK, right at the top circle on the stick.
- Rougher driving as the car warms up.

Here is a list of what I've done so far:
- Replaced 'T' shaped vacuum line going from the engine (at the top of the thermostat housing) to the fuel pressure regulator and the transmission also.
- Replaced fuel tank cap
- Replaced brake fluid reservoir
- Replaced MAP sensor

Best regards,

Oscar

Hello guys, any other advise someone could provide? All of the symptoms that seemed to be gone are back again. I guess I will take apart the whole fuel tank to check everything again.
Also my car has a P0102 wich is related to the MAF sensor and has erratic idling while waiting at a street light. Is there any way to clean the MAF sensor or will I have to replace it?

Thanks in advance.

You could try cleaning the MAF with Maf sensor cleaner, but often times that is a wast of a 14.00 can of cleaner. You could unplug your MAF and see if your symptoms go away. If they do, then you may want to look into replacing the MAF.

Hi tblake thanks for your help. I unplugged the sensor on monday before hitting the highway and the result was a slightly better driving but if I took my foot off the pedal the RPM's would fluctuate on a weird way for example:

Running at 2000 RPM's and then taking my foot off, the car would remain on 2000, then go down to 1500, then back to 2000, then back to about 1300, then back to 2000 and so on...

Could this be caused by the lack of the MAF reading and the car relaying on the other sensors?.

Also I disconnected the vacuum hose on the fuel pressure regulator and turned the ignition key on, no fuel came out so I guess the diaphragm is ok, but is there any other simple way to diagnose the FPR? I read that if the FRP is bad it may cause excesive or low pressure causing the fuel pump to make a squealing noise.

Thanks in advance.

Added: I forgot to mention that I took down the gas tank for the second time and found no leaks or problems with the fuel lines.

To test the FPR, take fuel pressure reading key on/engine off (should be 48-55psi). Start the car, at idle fuel pressure should drop 3-7 psi from the KOEO reading. Then disconnect the vacuum from the FPR and readings should spike up to or near KOEO readings again.

To test the FPR, take fuel pressure reading key on/engine off (should be 48-55psi). Start the car, at idle fuel pressure should drop 3-7 psi from the KOEO reading. Then disconnect the vacuum from the FPR and readings should spike up to or near KOEO readings again.

Hi richtazz thanks for your help, I checked the pressure at the schrader valve and the results were as follows:

KOEO: 60 PSI when pump is working, after that it will constantly decrease at a moderate speed.
Idling: It will quickly oscilate between 54 and 52 PSI.
Idling with FPR vacuum hose off: It will go up to 58 PSI.

Acording to this values I think the sound coming from the fuel pump is due to a high pressure. As I mentioned before I already checked the fuel lines and everything is fine, I guess the only remaining cause is a bad FPR. Am I right?.

Best Regards.

The change in pressures would indicate that the FPR is functioning, but your readings are on the high side. Do you have access to another fuel pressure gauge just to see if your's reads a bit on the high side? I'd hate to have you replace the FPR, only to find that it wasn't bad and it was your gauge.

The change in pressures would indicate that the FPR is functioning, but your readings are on the high side. Do you have access to another fuel pressure gauge just to see if your's reads a bit on the high side? I'd hate to have you replace the FPR, only to find that it wasn't bad and it was your gauge.

Hello again and thanks for your help, I don't have access to another gauge, the one I got is a brand new "actron" from autozone I wish I could have borrowed one, but they don't rent that kind of stuff here so I had to buy it :crying:(it may sound desperate, but to be honset that is the way I feel right now about my GP, everytime I fix something, two or three months later something else will brake...). Any other way to check the FPR condition?.

Thanks again for your help.

How fast will your fuel pressure drop to 0 after you turn the key on and the pump primes?

How fast will your fuel pressure drop to 0 after you turn the key on and the pump primes?

Hi tblake, thanks for helping.

I checked the reading again, after I removed the FPS just to see if there was any visuble damage and I putted it back in; and teh reading of the pressure gauge was 62 PSI, while the car was idling: 52-54PSI, without vacuum hose 62PSI.

It took 10 minutes and 30 seconds to drop down to 0 PSI. Finally I would like to add that the bubbling sensation on the brake pedal inmediatly after starting the engine is back, and now it will bubble 3 out of 4 times.

Best regards...

Hello again, my GP is driving me crazy !!! Today I went to "Home Depot" with 1/2 of a gas tank, after 20 minutes I was about to start the engine and saw my fuel needle was between 1/2 and 1/4, aso I noticed that the fuel gauge will change it's reading depending on how many times I I turn the key on, I have uploaded some pictures so you can see: Each picture is a different KOEO cycle and were taken in order.

Finally the hissing sound will sometimes start from a cold start, it no longer matters if the engine has warmed or not, and now I can hear the fuel pump making a whining sound (sometimes is pretty loud).

Would all these problems mean that my fuel pump is definitely going bad?, Will it be OK if I only get the fuel pump replacement parts (motor, filter, seals) or am I gonna have to replace the whole sending unit too?

Best regards...

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/8394/img00292201005151706.th.jpg (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/img00292201005151706.jpg/)

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4601/img00293201005151706.th.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/img00293201005151706.jpg/)

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2747/img00294201005151706.th.jpg (http://img225.imageshack.us/i/img00294201005151706.jpg/)

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/6674/img00295201005151706.th.jpg (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/img00295201005151706.jpg/)

Hello again people, after a few days without a DTC, today the SES light came on again, I had the car scanned at autozone and the result is P0441 again, when I drove back home I noticed a kind of "deep breathing" noise if I rev up to 2000 RPM's and take the foot off the gas pedal. As a last resource I will change the fuel pump, maybe the vacuum leak is coming from it.

My last question is: how high does the temperature needle needs to go to say that my car is overheating? Does the temperature reading on the following picture is still a normal reading for this season of the year?

Thank you very much for your help to everyone, best regards...

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2429/img00300201005171803.th.jpg (http://img6.imageshack.us/i/img00300201005171803.jpg/)

That is getting up there, but mine has gone that high a couple times in stop and go traffic on a hot day with the AC on. Usually turning the AC off will help keep my temp down.

I agree the temp reading is a bit on the high side, but not if pic was taken on an 80+ degree farenheit day while in traffic or during excessive idling. The "bubbling brake pedal" part of this is what has me scratching my head. Does the ABS or Trac-off lights come on when this happens?

That is getting up there, but mine has gone that high a couple times in stop and go traffic on a hot day with the AC on. Usually turning the AC off will help keep my temp down.

I agree the temp reading is a bit on the high side, but not if pic was taken on an 80+ degree farenheit day while in traffic or during excessive idling. The "bubbling brake pedal" part of this is what has me scratching my head. Does the ABS or Trac-off lights come on when this happens?

Hello again,

Yes the pictures were taken today and the average temperature outside was 31C(~88F) so taking into account your answers I guess I have nothing to worry about.

About the blubbling pedal, both lights (ABS and trac-off) used to be on, it started first with the ABS light, after some time the trac-off light would come on but pressing the "trac" button would turn it back off until some day finally stayed on all the time, I had it checked (since that's something I know nothing about) and the result was a broken wire from one of the sensors, the mechanic fixed it but that was when the bubbling pedal started. Since I bought the car with the ABS light already on I have no idea about any previous symptoms.

Finally I would like to ask both of you: what do you guys think about the fuel gauge changing it's reading every single KOEO cycle (28th post)?

Thanks again for you help.

P.S. I bought the fuel pump repair kit (motor, filter, etc.) and will install it tomorrow, I hope this will put an end to the whining sound coming from the fuel tank.

In that post, all 4 pics you posted are identical, so I can't say. If the gauge is jumping around, then most likely the fuel level sensor is bad or you have a wiring issue between it and the gauge. There is an access panel in the trunk so you don't have to drop the fuel tank to change your fuel pump module/fuel level sensor. Also, 97 models have 2 different fuel modules/level sensors depending on early or late model, so be sure to get the correct one. There is a definite VIN# cutoff, so just be sure you got the right one.

Try disconnecting & plugging the engine side of the vacuum line to the brake booster. Does it run better & do the brakes still make the bubbling sound? If you need to test drive it with the booster disconnected then be aware that you will need to use a lot more pedal force to stop the car. Try stopping from 10 - 15 mph so you know what it feels like.

You can't really disconnect the booster vacuum line or you will have a HUGE vacuum leak and the car probably wouldn't run. You would have to cap it or pinch it off somehow.

Hello guys, today I changed the fuel pump and seems to be working fine, I took the car for a ride and the hissing sound seems to be gone I will post any changes if they occur. Also when checking my spark plugs I found a broken cable (even though the wire is broken the car didn't report any DTC) so I went to autozone and got a set of duralast cables, do you have anything to say about this brand?, besides the cylinder not working when there is no spark at the cylinder, what other problem can cause a bad plug wire?, maybe rough running?.

In that post, all 4 pics you posted are identical, so I can't say. If the gauge is jumping around, then most likely the fuel level sensor is bad or you have a wiring issue between it and the gauge. There is an access panel in the trunk so you don't have to drop the fuel tank to change your fuel pump module/fuel level sensor. Also, 97 models have 2 different fuel modules/level sensors depending on early or late model, so be sure to get the correct one. There is a definite VIN# cutoff, so just be sure you got the right one.

Thanks for letting me know there are two versions of the level sensor, I will see how my gauge works at the moment, if the problem persists I will change it. About the 4 pictures, they aren't identical :lol:, the first 3 show the needle going from 3/8 of a tank to 1/2 a tank and the fourth show the needle back to 3/8.

Try disconnecting & plugging the engine side of the vacuum line to the brake booster. Does it run better & do the brakes still make the bubbling sound? If you need to test drive it with the booster disconnected then be aware that you will need to use a lot more pedal force to stop the car. Try stopping from 10 - 15 mph so you know what it feels like.

You can't really disconnect the booster vacuum line or you will have a HUGE vacuum leak and the car probably wouldn't run. You would have to cap it or pinch it off somehow.

I will try that tomorrow, first I have to find something to cap the line. At the moment I don't have any loss of power on the brakes, they work fine the only problem is the bubbling and hardening of the pedal as it bubbles after a cold start in the morning, after that there will be no more bubbling untill the engine fully cools down.

Thanks for your help guys, I will post back with the results...

He was getting att possibly a bad vacuum booster causing the bubbling. I am sort of thinking the bubbling you are feeling may be normal. All GP's I've driven with ABS and Traction Control do a self test on initial startup where the abs valve body opens and closes the valves. During which time you can feel it in the brake pedal if you have your foot on it. You can also hear it. The self test usualy last about a slip second.

He was getting att possibly a bad vacuum booster causing the bubbling. I am sort of thinking the bubbling you are feeling may be normal. All GP's I've driven with ABS and Traction Control do a self test on initial startup where the abs valve body opens and closes the valves. During which time you can feel it in the brake pedal if you have your foot on it. You can also hear it. The self test usualy last about a slip second.

Hello again tblake, what you mention about the self test, I think is the same thing I'm feeling in my brake pedal, I can feel it and hear it (like a piece of wire hit the chassis or something) and lasts a very short time, just like 3 click in a second; it's just that i've never felt anything like that on any other ABS system and since I go out on the road very often I guess I'm just being paranoic about the brake pedal and my fuel gauge. Now that you mentioned the self test I feel kind of relief, in case I start feeling anything weird I will post back.

I just changed the ignition wires, I'm going to take the car for a test drive and will report back the results. I hope this is the final step in this quest... :cool:

Thanks for your help, I'll talk to you soon guys.

It's OK man, there's no need to get tough, as I said before maybe I'm just being paranoic about my car because it's been giving me a lot of headaches lately: I fix something and something else will break, even when there is no relation between both failures. I'm sorry if I ever offended you

Anyway, as I mentioned before I changed the ignition wires (duralast brand), I checked every spark plug gap to 0.060; altough the car drives fine in the city I feel it lacks more power on the highway than before when the #3 cylinder was misfiring because of a broken wire, it's driving me crazy!!!. Should I reset the PCM so it will re-learn the optimal driving parameters?.

I'm glad to let you know that the hissing sound, the 3-4 key on cycles and the long cranking time to start the engine are definitely gone with the change of the fuel pump; the over-reving and stalling was also fixed with the change of the MAF sensor; the Service engine light seems to be gone together with the P0441 DTC, maybe the fuel pump change or the removing of the fuel pressure regulator helped fixing this.

Best regards to everyone...

If your talking to me, you didn't offend me one bit. Sorry if it sounded that way.

I am glad to hear that many of your issues are cleared up.

The ABS/TRAC self test sounds sort of like a groan for less than 1 sec. One way to verify if its the self test is to put your foot on the brake, turn the ignition on, and then start the car while holding the brake. The PCM (BCM?) wont command the self test if you have the brakes on. So if you don't get the groan/bubbling sensation until you let off the brake, your symptoms are normal with the self test. However this is providing that the rest of your brake components are functioning correctly.

On to the new issue! I'm suspecting the duralast wires as the culprits. First make sure all the wires are routed correctly expecially for the back three cylinders as its easy to mess up which wire goes where back there. Then make sure all the boots have securly snapped onto the plugs. If all else fails you can swap back your old ones and use the #3 wire from the duralast set.

Have you checked for proper fuel pressure with the new pump? What brand pump did you install?

Hello again tblake, thanks for your help; the message was for richtazz but his post has been deleted; no hard feelings to any you guys.

I will check holding the brake after starting the engine to make sure it's the test and not something else.

About the wires... I'm pretty sure I routed them correctly however I will check again tomorrow morning. If the problem is the brand, I'll go to autozone and see if I can return the wires and get better ones somewhere else. Just to make sure the Cylinder numbres are like this?

2 4 6

1 3 5
(Front of the car)

Finally with the fuel pump, it's a "Electric Performance Fuel Pumps", has anyone heard about it?. It is supposed to be a direct replacement for the original pump, here is a link with some information about that brand:

Electric Performance Fuel Pumps (http://www.allworldautomotive.com/featured/page.php?pfvid=1703&page=pumps)

I checked the pressure and the results were:
KOEO= 62 PSI (it is still a bit high I think, what do you guys think?)
Engine Idling= 54 PSI (the pressure gauge was very steady as opposed to the old pump).

It is a little on the high side, but your old one was too if I remember right. So that should be ok. I would look into those wires.

No offense here either olopezm. At first they all looked the same, but upon closer inspection (God getting old sucks!...:lol:) I can now see there is a 1 or 2 notch difference, that's why I deleted my post. This small difference isn't a concern, if it was sweeping from 1/4 to 1/2 to 3/4 back to empty and such, that would indicate a bad fuel level sensor. A notch or 2, not so much. The gauge is basically an ohm meter measuring the change in resistance as the tank float moves up and down it's variable resistor.

The gauge is basically an ohm meter measuring the change in resistance as the tank float moves up and down it's variable resistor.

I wonder about the gauges myself. I have a '98 GTP and I can be driving along and my low fuel indicator will go off. I pull into a store somewhere and when I come back out later I start it up and drive off and the low fuel indicator is not on. But then, as I drive, it goes on again. I've noticed that the gauge starts out higher when I first start the car and drops down a bit.

I wonder about the gauges myself. I have a '98 GTP and I can be driving along and my low fuel indicator will go off. I pull into a store somewhere and when I come back out later I start it up and drive off and the low fuel indicator is not on. But then, as I drive, it goes on again. I've noticed that the gauge starts out higher when I first start the car and drops down a bit.

Hello I remember having an issue like yours on a '92 Buick Century, sometimes the fuel gauge wouldn't go any higher than 1/4 with a full tank. This was fixed by taking apart the gauges from the dashboard and cleaning the wires and the coil behind the gauges. Hope this hels you buddy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tblake: Yes my old readings were high too, I guess it must be due to my gauge reading a bit higher than normal as mentioned before. About the wires I swapped all old ones back in except for the #3 cylinder; I'll take the car for a test drive later today and post back the results. Do you have any idea if the fuel pump I bought is good?. I'm from Mexico and it's kind of hard to get warlbro or other brands and Delco parts are quite expensive (the same replacement was 5 times more expensive than the one I bought, besides I've had bad experiences with some delco parts (reminds me of an IAC valve for the '92 century I mentioned above).

richtazz: It's good to know we're OK, thanks again for your help. I won't put too much attention to the fuel gauge unless it starts sweeping all the way up and down.

To everyone: I read on another web that you can check the spark plug wires with an ohmmeter and the readings should be 6-7 ohms for a lenght of 12 inches; 7.5-9 ohms for 24 inches and 9-11 ohms for 32 inches; any reading less than 6 ohms regardless of the lenght represents a low resistance and the wire should be replaced. Can anybody confirm this info? I checked the wires I recently bought and the highest reading was 4.4 ohms for the longest wire and ~1.3 for the shortest one. If the info is correct, then those duralast wires definitely suck!.
Here's the web page (http://www.ehow.com/how_2296047_test-spark-plug-wire-car.html)

Thanks everyone for you help...

I think if I remember right, the spec I leand in tech college was 5k ohm per foot and no more than 10k ohm. Drive it with the old wires back on there and let us know what happens.

Just for clarification, since his DMM was set to the 20k scale, a reading of 7.00 is actually 7,000 ohms. I was always taught that in a noise suppression style wire 500-600 ohms per inch of length was acceptable, which is right at Tim's spec as well. The site's figures you posted the link to are a little all-over-the-place if you ask me.

I think if I remember right, the spec I leand in tech college was 5k ohm per foot and no more than 10k ohm. Drive it with the old wires back on there and let us know what happens.

Just for clarification, since his DMM was set to the 20k scale, a reading of 7.00 is actually 7,000 ohms. I was always taught that in a noise suppression style wire 500-600 ohms per inch of length was acceptable, which is right at Tim's spec as well. The site's figures you posted the link to are a little all-over-the-place if you ask me.

Thanks for your help once again

Oh boy, I messed big time ! I never noticed the K in the resistance readings, I didn't pay enough attention altough my DMM was in the 20K scale in deed. I'm starting to forget how to use a multimeter! LOL.

So, with the info you posted the new cables might be within specifications. I took the car for a test drive today with the old cables and the driving still sucks, it was very rough, actually with the old cables the long cranking time is back, so definitely all those wires are in a bad state, also when I came back home I noticed again a fuel smell after turning the engine off. Is there any chance that I might not have fitted correctly the spark plugs? I mean, is there enough space to mess the installation?. When I took the spark plugs out they had a ~0.052 gap wich I changed to 0.06 as my haynes manual says; could it be possible that I have a bad coil pack since the problem gets worse when the engine is warm?. Also I noticed that my fuel gauge went all the way down and after turning the car off and on again it was fine, it might just be a coincidence or there might be something related with it?.

One final question: are Bosch spark plug wires any good?

Best regards to everyone...

One final question: are Bosch spark plug wires any good?

personally, i stay away from Bosch anything like the plague

personally, i stay away from Bosch anything like the plague

LOL, I was thinking on exchanging those duralast wires I bought for a set of Bosch wires. Thanks for he info buddy, that way I won't make the same mistake again.



tblake: I did the thing for the brake selftest, I stepped on the brake before turning the engine on and voila! the noise and the bubbling pedal appeared as sson as I released the brakes, it happened everytime I did the test so you were right, those symptoms are normal and related to the ABS selftest. That's one more crossed out symptom on the list, now I'm back to the ignition problem.

Best regards to everyone...

Is the SES light on or flashing?

Not sure if I asked this, but with your FPR guage, prime the system and let pressure build, and then see if pressure holds.

Is the SES light on or flashing?

Not sure if I asked this, but with your FPR guage, prime the system and let pressure build, and then see if pressure holds.

The SES light was on, I had it scanned at autozone and the code was P0441 again, actually there were 2 codes reporting P0441 one of them was marked as pending (stored in memory) the guy told me both codes might still show up because of that pending code so he asked me if I wanted him to erase both codes and reset the light, I said yes and drove for about 2 hours to test the car, the light didn't came on again.

This morning I reinstalled the new wires again and everything seems to be working fine no rough driving, I checked the spark plugs and the 2,4,6 had a bright redish tone, two of them had a brown spot on the insulator and I don't remember seeing this the first time I changed the wires. The other 3 had a pale redish tone; I think pale redish should be the normal condition right?. The only difference is that I removed the metallic sleeve on the boot of each wire, as far as i know this shouldn't affect but I felt a big difference while driving without them.

I haven't checked if the pressure holds, I will check that tomorrow morning. Thanks for your help tblake

Regapping the plugs may have been a mistake. It is unwise to regap platinum/iridium plugs, as you could inadvertently knock the platinum/iridium disc from the ground electrode, as well as mis-align them causing more harm than good. Occassionally, due to revisions, the recommended gap size may be changed (I know for a fact they did this on the Silverado/Sierra full-size trucks) to correct a known mis-fire issue. Just to reiterate, never re-gap platinum/iridium tipped plugs, you could do more harm than good. If you notice they are way off out of the box, return them to where you bought them and ask for a replacement rather than attempting to re-gap, as they may have been dropped or otherwise physically damaged.

Regapping the plugs may have been a mistake. It is unwise to regap platinum/iridium plugs, as you could inadvertently knock the platinum/iridium disc from the ground electrode, as well as mis-align them causing more harm than good. Occassionally, due to revisions, the recommended gap size may be changed (I know for a fact they did this on the Silverado/Sierra full-size trucks) to correct a known mis-fire issue. Just to reiterate, never re-gap platinum/iridium tipped plugs, you could do more harm than good. If you notice they are way off out of the box, return them to where you bought them and ask for a replacement rather than attempting to re-gap, as they may have been dropped or otherwise physically damaged.

Hello richtazz thanks for the info I had no idea about that, jut like I had no idea what type of spark plugs the mechanic (same guy who broke many components in the engine) used last year, the only thing I can tell for sure is they are AC Delco. Maybe that's the reason why the car sometimes lacks of power, just to make sure I will change the spark plugs next week, I was planning to do so anyway. Thanks again for your help.

I couldn't check if the fuel pressure drops after priming the system as tblake suggested, I'll check that tomorrow and post back.

Best regards...

Hello people, it's me again; today I drove on the highway and I found out a big problem, the car still lacks of power, I stepped on the gas and the overdrive kicked in but the RPM's won't go any higher than 3800-4000; I was doing 60-70 MPH and the RPM's were at 2000-2500, cruising at 50 MPH the RPM's will be about 1500; sometimes when I'm accelerating after a red light the car misses or hesitates. Would this definitely indicate bad spark plugs and wires? Can something else be wrong? please don't say "catalytic converter".

P.S. The SES light isn't on and there is no smoke coming from the exhaust, however somedays I can notice a rich fuel mixture smell wich irritates my eyes.

Here are some images of my spark plugs, as I mentioned before 2 of them have brown dots, these can be seen on the second and third pictures; the first picture corresponds to the front plugs, the three of them are in the same condition; the fourth picture is of the metallic sleeve I took off from the wire boots.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9207/img00302201005221053.th.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/img00302201005221053.jpg/)
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3606/img00304201005221116.th.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/i/img00304201005221116.jpg/)
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2913/img00310201005221127.th.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/img00310201005221127.jpg/)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7262/img00312201005222113.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/img00312201005222113.jpg/)

Yikes, they all look a little on the rich side. Whether that is because they are bing fould out due to bad spark, or if they are truling getting too much gas. Have access to a scan tool that you can watch data streams?

Have you checked all the vacuum lines, can't remember if this is a GTP, but if so, make sure that the vacuum line that runs from the bottom of the lower intake manifold on the passenger side to the FPR and to the MAP sensor, make sure that is in good shape.

Have you tried driving it with your MAF sensor unplugged yet?

Yikes, they all look a little on the rich side. Whether that is because they are bing fould out due to bad spark, or if they are truling getting too much gas. Have access to a scan tool that you can watch data streams?

Have you checked all the vacuum lines, can't remember if this is a GTP, but if so, make sure that the vacuum line that runs from the bottom of the lower intake manifold on the passenger side to the FPR and to the MAP sensor, make sure that is in good shape.

Have you tried driving it with your MAF sensor unplugged yet?

Hello tblake, i don't have access to a scanner like those; whenever i've needed one is from autozone and doesn't supports live sensor data. I already changed the MAF sensor with a reman from autozone, when I drove with the sensor unplugged the erratic RPM's problem happened less than with it plugged in. At the moment the car lacks of power and the rpm's altough they are constant wont go higher than 3500-4000, today the car overheated when I was on the freeway, i removed the thermostat and now my A/C blows cooler air than before wich is very nice so the only problem left is the lack of power, low rpm's (wixh should be tied to the lack of power i guess) and sometimes a gas smell when i turn the car off. Tomorrow I'll be buying new spark plugs and wires.

One last question Is it normal for some moist to come out from the exhaust as vapor? AFAIK the catalytic converter transforms the fumes into water and CO2 so there should be no problem, is that correct? There is no visible white nor blue smoke coming from the exhaust, actually there is no smoke at all.

Best regards...

P.S. The car is a GP GT with 106k miles and all the vacuum lines seem to be ok either at the front and the back of the car, I replaced the vacuum line that goes to the FPR, the Intake manifold (i guess should be the MAP you mention wich I already changed too since it was literally broken) and finally to the transmission modulator (I think that's what it's called).

This is an update on my last post from yesterday...

Just to let you know guys I changed the spark plugs and wires today with a set of "Autolite" spark plugs and "KEM" wires (these definitely feel and look much better, better quality!). After the change I drove the car and everything is working fine, no more lack of power nor hesitating, I guess I made TWO BIG MISTAKES, the first one was buying duralast wires and the second one regappin platinum plugs, I had to learn the bad way. The SES light came on again, I couldn´t have the car scanned today because I was very tired, the only thing I had in mind was being at home; I suspect the DTC must be a P0441 code again since that's the one from the last time, I will take a very close look at the vacuum lines on the engine again, if everything is OK I will change the canister purge solenoid.

One last question Is it normal for some moist to come out from the exhaust as vapor? AFAIK the catalytic converter transforms the fumes into water and CO2 so there should be no problem, is that correct? There is no visible white nor blue smoke coming from the exhaust, actually there is no smoke at all.

The car is a GP GT with 106k miles and all the vacuum lines seem to be ok either at the front and the back of the car, I replaced the vacuum line that goes to the FPR, the Intake manifold (i guess should be the MAP you mention wich I already changed too since it was literally broken) and finally to the transmission modulator (I think that's what it's called).

Best regards...

sweet! Sounds good!

And a little moisture out the tail pipe is normal. In the summer time you will see it drip. In the winter it comes out as vapor and can be seen as white smoke.

sweet! Sounds good!

And a little moisture out the tail pipe is normal. In the summer time you will see it drip. In the winter it comes out as vapor and can be seen as white smoke.

Great! Thanks for your answer tblake.

At last I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel LOL. Thanks to all of you guys for your time and your help!

Yesterday I was so tired that I forgot to mention that 5 of the spark plugs were fouled, the remaining one's (actually cilynder #3, same one with a broken wire) insulator was a little grayish/redish tone; if the others were completely fouled, why that one wasn't?, even after I installed those duralast wires and regapped platinum plugs wich is what caused my rough driving problems .

Best regards...

This topic is coming to an end... !