The 3.4 Plan

I've talked about this to some length in some of my other threads, but this time I want to come up with a solid plan for dropping to a 3.4" pulley. I don't want to invest in any mods and then just have to get rid of them in favor of the "correct" mods. I just want to do it right the first time. It will probably take me some time, so I want to get the planning part done first.

So here is my main goal: I want to do whatever supporting mods are necessary for a 3.4" supercharger pulley swap so that once I do make the swap, I can forget about it and move on without having to deal with any issues that could have been avoided with other adjustments. I don't want to have to be constantly compensating for the 3.4" pulley if that makes sense. I know I've joked about the "mod bug," and how you can never stop, but I really have no desire to do more to the car than that. This is our DD so if I did keep beefing it up endlessly, I would lose it a the "good gas mileage car." I'm okay with sacrificing a little MPG for the 3.4 pulley, but that's really as far as I want to go. So there is no need to suggest mods that aren't necessary for the 3.4" pulley unless they're easy and cheap. :grinyes:

What started this is that my P0420 light keeps coming on. The car runs just fine (well aside from the ticking/knocking sound when cold, the strange droning whine, the scratchy pulley sound, and the front-end knock :rofl:), and my gas mileage is just fine, but from what I've gathered so far, I'm betting the cat is bad (140K miles). I was going to just get an OEM cat and a U-bend delete from ZZP, but if those won't support a 3.4" pulley then I would rather just go straight to what will. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to build a super-racer and I want to keep costs down as much as possible while still investing enough to not damage my car or engine when I do finally put the smaller pulley in. Also, Utah does have emissions requirements so going catless is definitely not an option. I want a list if compensating mods that need to be done, and the order in which to do them.

The other grandprix forum has a lot more traffic but they seem to be the younger, thoughtless types who seem to think that the only thing that matters is how fast you can propel your car down a track and how good you look doing it, regardless of the engine fire you might have afterwards. :headshake In the two years I've been on this forum, I've received some wonderful help and advice with my car. You guys on here seem to have much more polished experience and practical sense which is what I need the most. So please let me know what you think (Bob, Rich, Tim, Jerad, I'm expecially interested in what you have to say, and of course anyone else is free to chime in).

So! Lay it on me and be prepared for me to bombard with further questions as usual! :smokin: Thanks guys!

Here's the first question I need to answer. Will an OEM cat work with a 3.4" pulley or will a need a high-flow one?


THE PLAN:


New Cat? Hi flow or no?
U-bend delete
PCM?
Tuner?
Shift Kit
CAI
CURRENT MODS:
180* T-stat
Autolite 605 Platinum Plugs (1 range colder)
2.5" cat-back SS exhaust
Resonator delete
High-flow mufflers

read my post for what I did on GTP issues, one major thing to worry about is the transmission they are the weak points for that car.

Yeah, I read that. Do you think your tranny prob is directly related to your mods? Like Jerad eluded to, I really wonder if the PCM could've helped that.

....So please let me know what you think (Bob, Tim, Jerad, I'm expecially interested in what you have to say....

Don't you mean to say....

So please let me know what you think (Bob, Rich, Jerad, I'm expecially interested in what you have to say.

I am happy with my set up, Although the ported LIM is probably not necessicary for a 3.4. I just added it because my LIM gaskets blew.

Your best bet is probably to start with installing a 180 stat and a colder range set of plugs whether they are autolite 605's or I have NGK iridiums tr6ix's (1 range colder). I went with NKG's over delco's because NGK's you can regap if you are carefull. Plus the iridiums should be good for a few years. You should have no issues running a colder set of plugs and a 180 stat while you wait for a smaller pulley.

Do you have any Mods right now? I stuck with the stock airbox to keep moisture and MAF issues from happening. I read an article on gutting the stock airbox, which I may give a shot.

Don't you mean to say....

So please let me know what you think (Bob, Rich, Jerad, I'm expecially interested in what you have to say.

WHAT!?!?! That's your advice?!?!?! Can someone please ban this clown? :biggrin2:

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::lol::lol::lol::lol:

You're right, I fixed it. I haven't seen Rich on here for a while so I forgot :banghead:. My apologies Rich . I do very much want your thoughts as well.

Do you have any Mods right now?

Oops. Forgot that part too. I'll add my current mods to the first post.

first things first, do you have access to a ODB II scanner, or something capable of scanning for KR? All cars respond to mods different, and KR is your worst enemy when dropping pulley sizes (as im sure you are already aware)

i good cheap scanner i would recommend is the LS1m. here is a link to check it out http://www.ls1m.com/Main%20Menu.htm

now, as Tim suggested you can do the cheaper things first, IE colder plugs, and 180 tstat. you will def want to get a PCM, or have someone tune yours. Ubend delete is a good idea, and a great way to reduce KR.

you will also want to get a CAI (not a WAI like you had on there before :rofl:) one that goes into the fender is the best IMO

things like headers and DP are recommended for more "kick in the pants" feeling, but not needed.

I'm sure I'm missing a few things, and will chime in again after work. just remember when modding...scan, scan, and scan more. you can never be too careful

You're right, I fixed it. I haven't seen Rich on here for a while so I forgot :banghead:. My apologies Rich . I do very much want your thoughts as well.



Darn it, now I have to stop the banning proceedures...:lol:!

For the 3.4 pulley, I would suggest a remapped PCM (or a tuner as both serve the same purpose. The tuner would be a better investment if you can't help yourself modding more later), and hi-flow cat with u-bend delete to go along with the mods you have already done. Also do the trans shift kit mod as described by Bnayor's thread in the tips and maintenance subforum, here's the link.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=899929

first things first, do you have access to a ODB II scanner, or something capable of scanning for KR? All cars respond to mods different, and KR is your worst enemy when dropping pulley sizes (as im sure you are already aware)

No, I don't have an OBD II scanner. The only place that I could think would have one is just the shop I usually take my car to.
All I knew was that KR = bad. That's pretty much my depth of understanding there.


i good cheap scanner i would recommend is the LS1m. here is a link to check it out http://www.ls1m.com/Main%20Menu.htm (http://www.ls1m.com/Main%20Menu.htm)


That's cool, but it doesn't show a price, where to get one, and it says they don't make them anymore! :confused:

will def want to get a PCM, or have someone tune yours.

I have a plan for the PCM (I'll get mine tuned). Does that need to be done at a certain point or just whenever as long as it's before the pulley swap?

Ubend delete is a good idea, and a great way to reduce KR.

If I get a U-bend delete then that means I'm going to keep my stock manifold and everything. Will the stock exhaust manifold, down pipe, all of that handle a 3.4" pulley? Can I use an OEM cat with a U-bend and call it good?

you will also want to get a CAI (not a WAI like you had on there before :rofl:) one that goes into the fender is the best IMO

You're never going to let that one go are you? :lol2: Give me a break, I've seen a ton of guys with that same set-up. But yes, if I do an intake mod, I'd go with a true CAI so I don't have to take Jerad's beatings anymore. :loser:

Is a CAI necessary for a 3.4" pulley?

Darn it, now I have to stop the banning proceedures...:lol:!


:rofl:

hi-flow cat with u-bend delete

So a hi-flow cat the only way to go?

Would this one work? http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=364&catid=110 If so, I'm thinking I'd get the U-bend delete at the same time and then just have the P0420 code deleted because the hi-flow cat will most likely trip the codes, right?

Will I pass an emissions test with a hi-flow cat?

That's cool, but it doesn't show a price, where to get one, and it says they don't make them anymore! :confused:

you are correct, they are not made anymore...but you can find them used for usually around $100. I was actually thinking about picking this one up. Not sure if this is legal, since its another forum, but I'll post the link anyways (I'm sure Bob will ban me if its not legal :tongue:)

http://www.gpona.com/forums/gp-car-parts-for-sale-f24/fund-the-cam-sale-t18955.html

I have a plan for the PCM (I'll get mine tuned). Does that need to be done at a certain point or just whenever as long as it's before the pulley swap?

the PCM will need to be tuned to specs WITH the 3.4 on, along with all supporting mods you have done.

If I get a U-bend delete then that means I'm going to keep my stock manifold and everything. Will the stock exhaust manifold, down pipe, all of that handle a 3.4" pulley? Can I use an OEM cat with a U-bend and call it good?

yes, a Ubend delete will work just fine with everything stock.

You're never going to let that one go are you? :lol2: Give me a break, I've seen a ton of guys with that same set-up. But yes, if I do an intake mod, I'd go with a true CAI so I don't have to take Jerad's beatings anymore.

you know I'm just messin' with ya Matt. A CAI is strongly recommended, since with a good one it will bring cool air into the motor. Cool air will obviously make the motor run a bit cooler, therefore causing less KR.

the newer hi-flow cats should still work and pass emissions. With a 3.4 pulley, you need to have a good exhaust flow. A new stock cat with the u-bend should flow sufficiently, but may not causing bckpressure that may lead to KR. Plus, the aftermarket stock cats are no more apt to pass emissions testing than a high flow, so why not get the extra flow for the same money? Reprogramming the PCM to drop catalyst monitoring would keep the CEL off, but it may not pass emissions if the parameters aren't there. I guess that would depend on how stringent your state's test is.

the newer hi-flow cats should still work and pass emissions. With a 3.4 pulley, you need to have a good exhaust flow. A new stock cat with the u-bend should flow sufficiently, but may not causing bckpressure that may lead to KR. Plus, the aftermarket stock cats are no more apt to pass emissions testing than a high flow, so why not get the extra flow for the same money? Reprogramming the PCM to drop catalyst monitoring would keep the CEL off, but it may not pass emissions if the parameters aren't there. I guess that would depend on how stringent your state's test is.

Sweet. So if I order a high-flow cat, U-bend delete, and a shift kit from ZZP, that's all I need from them, right?

I'll be able to get a DHP tune on my PCM.

So that should be it??? :bananasmi


Oh. And where should I get a pulley? :tongue:

Oh. And where should I get a pulley? :tongue:

i recommend the Modular Pulley System. I've had nothing but good things to say about them, as well as from alot of other people

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=205&catid=111

of course you are going to need a puller as well

I think those three mods as well as a PCM tune should just about do it. It may take a little fine tuning as far as plug heat ranges go as every car seems a little different as to what is need for KR control.

I agree with Grandprixgtx00, the modular pulley would better fit your "ok, maybe ONE more mod" mentality...LOL! And the pulley puller is another thing you'll need as well.

Good luck and keep us posted as to how it works out.

Sweet guys, thank you so much for the help!

Now it's the nitty-gritty:

For the U-bend do I want the one WITH rear O2? I'm thinking I do because if emissions saw I had no O2 sensor, could that come back and bite me? What are your thoughts there? Should I order the 2.5" gasket as well? I'm clueless when it comes to this stuff.

As far as the cat goes, I was just going to get this one?
http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=364
2.5" in/out is what I need, right?

And is this the right shift kit?

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=570


Do I have the freedom to do this in any order I wish, or is there a certain order that I should go in and do certain things need to be done at the same time?

Sweet guys, thank you so much for the help!

Now it's the nitty-gritty:

For the U-bend do I want the one WITH rear O2? I'm thinking I do because if emissions saw I had no O2 sensor, could that come back and bite me? What are your thoughts there? Should I order the 2.5" gasket as well? I'm clueless when it comes to this stuff.

As far as the cat goes, I was just going to get this one?
http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=364
2.5" in/out is what I need, right?

And is this the right shift kit?

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=570


for some reason your links are not working for me. you are going to want the Ubend delete WITH the rear o2. for the Cat, yes you will want the 2.5" in and out.

and the shift kit from ZZP: https://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=570&catid=105

that one should work fine. The ZZP one also includes a new filter which is nice. When you install the shift kit, i recommend you use the the soft setting for the 1-2 and the middle setting for the 3-4

that one should work fine. The ZZP one also includes a new filter which is nice. When you install the shift kit, i recommend you use the the soft setting for the 1-2 and the middle setting for the 3-4


I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the shift kit. I've never maintenanced or touched a transmission in my life - I always have the shop do my fluid and filter changes. The shop I go to said they won't mod a car at all because they've had too many issues with people wanting stuff done to their cars when they don't know what they're doing. So if putting the shift kit in is something more advanced, I have no clue where to go to put it in.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the shift kit. I've never maintenanced or touched a transmission in my life - I always have the shop do my fluid and filter changes. The shop I go to said they won't mod a car at all because they've had too many issues with people wanting stuff done to their cars when they don't know what they're doing. So if putting the shift kit in is something more advanced, I have no clue where to go to put it in.

the shift kit is simple. if you have a little DIY knowledge you can do it. of course you have a million 10mm bolts holding the pan on there which you would need to remove to take the pan off. then remove the valve body cover and install the spacers.

the ZZP kit is the one i personally used, and includes detailed pictured instructions.

Jerad, what size pulley are you running right now?

Jerad, what size pulley are you running right now?

i am NA right now :frown: hoping to get the GT top swapped sometime in the near future

finally got rid of the SE

i am NA right now :frown:

Psch. What are you even doing here?




:rofl: Just kidding. :lol2:

BTW (off topic), I noticed your gf became a fiance! Congrats! When did this happen? When's the big day?

Psch. What are you even doing here?




:rofl: Just kidding. :lol2:

yeah, yeah, yeah...

i still have something that will beat your GTP though :cwm27:

EDIT: you must have added the thing about the Fiance. It happened when we went to New York in the end of January. i asked the night of January 28th. Date is yet to be set. you know how women are haha

It happened when we went to New York in the end of January. i asked the night of January 28th. Date is yet to be set. you know how women are haha

Nice man. Now we just need to get Tim to man up and pop the question. :naughty:


More questions.

Do I need a special pulley puller, or can I just get a generic one?

Once I put the smaller pulley on, do I need a smaller belt or will the tensioner take up the slack okay?

What is the stock pulley size on my car? I thought it was 3.8, but ZZP is saying 3.5? If it is 3.5, then will I be only adding 1 lb of boost?

Taking a guess, what would you say I'd be adding in HP to the crank with a U-bend delete, hi-flow cat, PCM tune, and a 3.4" pulley?

Once I put the smaller pulley on, do I need a smaller belt or will the tensioner take up the slack okay?

yes, the OE supercharger belt will work, but for the $30 i would recommend getting the Goodyear Gatorback belt part# 4060660 just to minimize belt slip.

What is the stock pulley size on my car? I thought it was 3.8, but ZZP is saying 3.5?

:confused:

yes, the stock pulley size on the 97-03 GP is 3.8"

Taking a guess, what would you say I'd be adding in HP to the crank with a U-bend delete, hi-flow cat, PCM tune, and a 3.4" pulley?

25-30HP. i would say you'll be around 285 at the crank. with a good tune you may be closer to the 300 range.

25-30HP. i would say you'll be around 285 at the crank. with a good tune you may be closer to the 300 range.

Wow. That'll be more than my old Z28! I really can't wait to see what the difference is. I'll probably get everything ordered this weekend.

Jerad, you have an NA GP with a U-bend delete and hi-flow cat and you're not throwing P0420 codes?

Jerad, you have an NA GP with a U-bend delete and hi-flow cat and you're not throwing P0420 codes?

I dont have a hi-flow cat on my GT. All i have is a Ubend delete, and resonator delete.

Nice man. Now we just need to get Tim to man up and pop the question. :naughty:


:nono:Way to throw Tim in front of the bus guys. You do know is girlfriend is on AF too, right? :nono:

You do know is girlfriend is on AF too, right?


:rofl:

Her name is Nan. On one occasion when she logged in the AF Multiple Account Login Detector tripped and I had to respond to it at our Moderator happy place :rolleyes: and clarify so Tim wouldn't get banned for running multiple member accounts off the same home computer. The IP addresses matched. The Detector isn't too smart. :grinno:......:twak:

:banghead: Oops! Ha ha ha!

My bad, my bad. I didn't know she was on here. If she has a GP does she ever post on here?

:nono:Way to throw Tim in front of the bus guys. You do know is girlfriend is on AF too, right? :nono:

hey...what did i do? lol. but yes, his GF is on AF. i remember back when Tim posted pics of her CD player install he did, and she chimed in.

Carefull guys,

She lurks quite often, you may get me in trouble (not the right time to pop any questions at the moment) HAHA!

If she pops on, someone better mention her new Sidepanels. She's got a 02 GP SE, the rockers were starting to rot from MN salt, so we got her the GT/GTP side panels, and had a body guy paint them to match and install them. That car looks so nice, and she loves the new look. Now all I need to do is find her a GT/GTP back bumper and dual mufflers to clean up the back end a little.

I also thought about pitching a bolt in the air intake so the motor blows so I could swap in a 3800, but that darn 3100 runs soooo good, I just can't get over it (2 LIM gaskets later). Oh well.

I'll see if she will get a video or some pictures for you guys.

And Bob, thanks for not letting me get banned.......

Matt, to answer your question, you will need a special pulley puller. ZZP rents them and when you ship it back you get your rental fee refunded. I have a ZZP Puller, but that, sadly, also is with my spair PCM, and probably has a new home.....

Well Checker and Auto Zone do free tool rentals - they wouldn't have what I need to do the job?

I don't think so.

Lame.

Ok, so this guy that lives close to me ordered some headers for his GTP and said he'd give me his 3.5 pulley and his plog for free if I help him put the headers on. He also said he'd give me his 3" downpipe and cat from zzp for $100.
I'm also looking at a dp and cat that a guy is selling only it's 2.5". My cat-back exhaust is 2.5" so what should I do? :confused:

With these mods:

3.4 pulley
ported front exhaust manifold
3" downpipe
magnaflow cat
resonator delete
2.5" cat back exhaust
high flow mufflers
180* T-stat
1 range colder plugs
DHP PCM

should I do a CAI or keep the stock air box?

I kept mine stock even with the stock filter. Have you looked into gutting your stock airbox Matt?

Gutting it?

Ok, here's another question. Am I okay running my 605 plugs with the 3.4 pulley, or do I have to get 104's?

605's are 1 range colder so you should be OK. I ran 605's for a year with mine befor I switched them out to NGK Iridiums.

Any specific reason why you switched them out?

BTW, got a ZZP plog installed tonight! ;)

Well got the tuned PCM and 3.4 pulley installed tonight! :D Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted for all your help and pointers! :thumbsup:

Hows it run?

So far so good! :thumbsup: The shifts are a little weird, but that is probably just the PCM getting adjusted. It does that everytime I have the battery unplugged for a while.
Tiffany and I carpool to work each day and she drives in the morning and I drive us home. I used to drive all the time but once I started modding the car she wasn't content to stay in the passenger seat all the time. :lol: That's her dad in her. Next time we go over to her parents' house I'll probably let her dad take it for a spin. He used to race '69 camaros in his glory days so I think he'll enjoy it.
It's not like slam you back in the seat and snap your neck wicked fast, but there's no mistaking that it is faster than it was. :devil: I had to have a chat with Tiffany this morning giving her the lecture on "with added power comes added responsibility..." :lol: I told her that we'll watch our MPG and engine life disappear (even more that is :rofl:) if either of us has the gas pedal stuck down all the time. Especially the tranny. It's totally on it's way out because 4th gear is pretty much a joke on any hill longer than 100 yards. So both of us are going to try to go easy on the ol' girl and only use that 3.4 pulley when it really counts. Some point very soon I'll be taking it to the track with a few friends to see what kind of time I can get. That PCM will be perfect for that. I'm loving how cool the engine stays with that thing in there.

Saweet. It may take some time to learn your driving habits after the PCM change.

My trans was having some issues recently going in and coming out of overdrive. It was freaking me out. Like it would go into OD, then pop back out, over and over again. Then I'd let off the gas to get it to stop and when I gave it gas again it was fine. So last night I looked everything over. Found a pretty decent vacuum leak going to my EVAP system straight from the throttle body. Fixed that, and swapped out the plugs and cleand the MAF. Seems better so far, so I'm pretty happy.

Yeah, I don't think mine is a vacuum leak (though I could be wrong). I'm still having that indecision thing where it like can't decide if it wants to shift in or out of overdrive and it does that surging thing. Then if I go up a big hill in 3rd for a long time and then come to the top of the hill, it stays stuck in 3rd and won't shift to 4th at all until I slow down enough to make it shift into 2nd and then once I go faster again it will shift into 4th. Drives me nuts.

I'm curious to see how the drive home goes today with the new PCM. The drive home is where we go up the big long hill that 4th gear doesn't like.

Matt, did you put a shift kit in?

btw-bet you never wanna drive the Jeep now, huh :sunglasse

Matt, thats interesting, what elevation are you at?

Also check the vacuum T at the bottom of the lower intake manifold on the passenger side. It branches off, one side goes to the boost bypass valve and fuel pressure regulator, the otherside goes to the MAP sensor. I have seen cars acting all sorts of crazy with their shift points and the issue ends up being a cracked vacuum fitting either at that T at the LIM, or at the 90 degree bend at the MAP sensor.

Matt, did you put a shift kit in?

btw-bet you never wanna drive the Jeep now, huh :sunglasse

No, no shift kit yet. I'm still considering that one.

As for the Jeep it still holds its place in my heart (where the pavement ends) :naughty:. I scored a 2" lift for $80 so that's going on this weekend.

Matt, that's interesting, what elevation are you at?

Also check the vacuum T at the bottom of the lower intake manifold on the passenger side. It branches off, one side goes to the boost bypass valve and fuel pressure regulator, the otherside goes to the MAP sensor. I have seen cars acting all sorts of crazy with their shift points and the issue ends up being a cracked vacuum fitting either at that T at the LIM, or at the 90 degree bend at the MAP sensor.

Yes, the trans did end up acting funny on the way home. It didn't get stuck in 3rd, but it did that surging thing. I forced it to stay in 3rd gear and then it acted completely fine. It shot up the hill a little easier today too. ;)

I'll check those vacuum lines you recommended. You don't happen to have a pic handy of exactly what you're talking about do you? If not, I'll just check all the lines I can see in that general area. :lol:

I don't have any pics, but you can't miss the vacuum line. Look right under the supercharger snout. It comes out of the LIM right there. Can't miss it.

Oh that one :lol:. Yeah, that line has already cracked and been replaced with rubber line instead of plastic. I thought you were talking more on the air box side.

Make sure the rubber replacements arent being sucked together, and making good connections.

Hmm. The vacuum is greatest at idle, right? So if I just started the car and let it idle, that would be the best time to tell if the lines were collapsing, right?

Woo hoo! The car passed emissions! I was worried about the hi-flo cat, but everything checked out fine!

so, Matt...was the car not totalled? I havent been around in a while and didnt see what happened with the accident.

What's up man! Yeah, they didn't total it fortunately - it was down to a few dollars. I'm way relieved that we got to keep it because I only had the 3.4 pulley on for three days before it got hit. :shakehead

Here's the day I picked it up from the shop (I had them paint the bumper lip black to match what I did with the rear bumper and it didn't cost me anything :)):

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll90/Mattman_2000/Car%20Pics/IMG00629.jpg

Since the driver headlight had to be replaced anyway I thought it'd be a good time to upgrade so I got some projectors and HID's and the insurance paid just over half of it! :iceslolanhttp://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll90/Mattman_2000/Car%20Pics/IMG00631.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll90/Mattman_2000/Car%20Pics/IMG00632.jpg

I don't have pics of them on yet, but it's pretty sweet I think. I killed the DRL's so I don't waste all my HID life and then wired up the halos and LED's to a relay and those act as my DRL's. I love it.

Looks nice Matt, and I'm glad you passed emissions! You were a bit worried there for a while weren't you?

Must say, lookin' pretty good man! Glad the insurance didn't total it.

hows the cutoff line on those headlights? I've heard several mixed emotions about those ones.

also...when you unlock/lock your doors, do your headlights blink? If so...you're gonna wanna change that asap

Thanks guys and yes I was worried.

Nope the headlights don't blink fortunately! Just the parking lights. :D

The cut-off is fantastic. It's a VERY well defined line and it doesn't really bleed at all. So far I'm loving these lights and no one has brighted me or anything.

No offense but I think those aftermarket headlights make the car look really cheesy and cheap. I would of went with the ones manufactured by Spyder:
http://www.andysautosport.com/images/detailed_product/lights/headlights/spyd_pro-yd-pg97-1pc-hl-c.jpghttp://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff296/bluegtp03/n1300560460_31060115_434.jpg
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon6.gif They look badass as hell