Swap Engine or Buy New Car?

Should i be saving for an engine swap? Or should I be saving for a new car? Would a swap be cost efficient for prolonging the life of my daily driver? Or would it be smarter for me to look for another car with an engine already in it? I have very little mechanical skill and I'm NOT interested in racing. But eventually I'd like to have a little more than 92 horsepower. So i'm wondering if i should get a D16 and keep the 5 speed trans that i just got.

If i decide on a future swap i can start immediately shopping around for an new engine, ECU, bigger exhaust, (any wiring kit that's needed) do some cosmetic work on my exterior, floor carpets, etc. Otherwise i won't waste my time.

Right now i have a 91 civic DX with a stock D15-- no rust, good stock transmission. It's burns oil from having worn rings -- blowby (already played with 'Restore' and all that stuff). So I top it off and I get where I'm going as I've done for years. Modifying my tired old engine would, of course, be a waste.

I know a wonderful trustworthy mechanic who swapped in a transmission for me for real cheap. But I was disappointed that he advised me to get a new car instead of a swap. (Otherwise I'd have no problem paying him to do the work.)

Option 1

A reputable JDM shop gave me the following estimated prices for swaps, all parts and labor included.

Another stock D15 $1300

New 1.6 dual point 1800 dollars
- engine more expensive
- needs new ECU

New 1.6 with multipoint 2000 dollars
Multipoint is more wiring work
- engine more expensive
- needs new ECU

(my sincere apologies to the owners for any inaccuracies in the above)
http://jdmexchange.com/

Advantage: These guys obviously know what they're doing and I trust that my car wouldn't have any subsequent problems from the swap -- i would trust them to be capable of standing behind their work.
Disadvantage: Maybe a little pricey. (but maybe very well worth the money. I don't know.)

I see that there is a ton of technical information available for those wanting their EFs to go quicker.



Option 2 Guy at the Broad Street car wash

"Do it yourself! You don't even need to rent a crane. Just throw a rope over a tree limb. Or get a couple buddies to help you lift it up and drop it in-- that's a light engine."

I admire this guy's ambition. But I have absolutely no confidence in his technical ability. And I'm merely posting this for some comedic value.


Option 3
Ask the young mechanic to do it on the weekend. I know a young-- 24ish-- guy who's also got an EF and he seems know his stuff. He's currently going to tech school for auto repair.

If this guy can't use his friend's shop. I can rent a crane and we can do it in my Aunt's garage. I would gladly be his assistant and hand him tools as needed, etc. I'd be his gopher since i got no tech skill.

Advantage: Cheaper
Disadvantage: What if there's a problem? Will he fix it? Can he fix it? When will he get to it? Where will he fix it?


Variation 3 B
Get the reputable shop to put in a healthy jdm d15 for $1300. Then later, when convenient, hunt for deals. Meaning find some cheap way of getting a multipoint swap, cold air intake and a 2/2.25/2.5 exhaust.


Option 4
Just save money for a new car

Thanks to anyone who's still reading this longwinded post.

NONONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go with option 3. Listen, you just put in a tranny. Save your money from getting good fuel economy and then get a d16a6 from somebody selling shit in the classifieds. Also, get a new stock clutch for like $100 and get any machine shop to resurface your existing flywheel or by a brand new hefty one for $90. Total for used d16a6 long block with ecu and rewired mpfi engine bay harness, new clutch and flywheel and new gaskets, belts and waterpump should run way less than any of those quotes you gave.

If you really love your car then keep it. There is no need to spend outrageous amounts of money to put a sohc 1.6L engine in your car and have it run right. These cars are so easy to work on that even I could do it and I am by no means a mechanic.

But if you want to just dump your car and buy something else that is entirely up to you.

Im with Turtle there, pick up a d16a6 someone is selling and swap it in. For just about any swap you want to do to get over the stock 92 hp, you need to do the MPFI swap, which isn't really that hard. And with the a6, thats gonna be the extent of your wiring, everything else should just drop right in without a hitch.

Thanks very much to both Turtle and Tony,

Actually I really do like my car and that's why trying to do this the smart way.

It's really confuses me that non-honda people seem to think that swaps are extremely difficult and time consuming. While people on Honda forums make them sound relatively easy.

Someone else said that they weren't thrilled with jdm exchange, the place that gave me the quotes.

Now i should get back to work so i can make some money.

an a6 or sohc zc (jap version of a6) will run you $800 from an engine source, it will have the approx 30,000-40,000mi. Japan Engine Inc 866-532-7878

if you're going to have the guy who's going to school to be an auto tech, i would ask if he's done a MPFI conversion before...the wiring part of it. that is the only part that is not just drop in, bolt in. i've seen some jack@sses royally mess up on that part. some people just shouldn't be playing with wires.

you're best option is to let a shop do it for $1300. you'll get peace of mind it was done correctly

Thanks Lady,

That's exactly what i want to know. What risks are involved.

I'm thinking if the wiring might be challenging for this tech student maybe I'll buy a wiring kit form rywire? Will that make it 'fool proof'?

you're best option is to let a shop do it for $1300. you'll get peace of mind it was done correctly

I'm certainly willing to pay a little more for peace of mind.

But $1300 was the cost they quoted for a dual point D15. A multipoint D16 was 2,000. Based on what i've read here and elsewhere. I need to find a better shop.

Is that number you gave me the 'Japanese Engines' of Patterson NJ? That's where i got my trans from. It was only 150 and i'm really happy with it.

I'm thinking if the wiring might be challenging for this tech student maybe I'll buy a wiring kit form rywire? Will that make it 'fool proof'?


Like it has been recommended to you, get either a d16a6 or a sohc zc. These motors are both obd-0, but you will need to convert to mpfi and that requires some wiring work. You can do rywire but that just more dough versus doing it yourself. You can pick up both motors for cheap so no worries there, plus swapping is cake.
Have you tried running your current D15 on thicker weight oil? You should pour in some 20w-50 and run that sucker till it dies. I know a lot of people will dissagree but you will only see like a 10 hp difference with an A6.

CRX, Thanks for responding.

I just got a bad valve cover gastket fixed. But unfortunately i'm still using oil.

Have you tried running your current D15 on thicker weight oil? You should pour in some 20w-50 and run that sucker till it dies.

I won't be one to disagree with you. I blended 1 qt 20W50 with 3 Wallyworld 5W-40s for the winter. I go thicker in the summer. (i've use motor honey, tried restore, etc.) The car today, feels as good as the day i bought it 7 years ago.

And if i gave it to my grandmom, who doesn't redline in every gear, she'd burn much less oil than my impatient ass.

My mind is turned to mush (from work) going to bed.

Thanks again to all for the advice.

I'm sorry but spending 1300 for a a6 swap is rediculous. And only a shop owner would recommend doing that in a 17 year old car.

The mpfi wiring is simple and the instructions are found on Lady's site... unless the site is down or it has been removed. Either way, if you are having second thoughts about your tech friend doing the swap because of wiring then contact bambam89lx and he can hook you up. He is also located in the Ct area and has done a lot of work for dude's in NJ and the tri-state area. He makes harnesses. Although, he is in the Navy so who knows if he's actually around.

Take it from me, I had my blown motor swapped out by a local Honda redneck shop guy and he charged me about 1300 for a new engine swapped in with a new waterpump, belts, etc. and swapped over my parts. Basically, I didn't want to deal with it. Then I joined AF and realized how damn stupid I was for spending that kind of money. Anyway, just trying to help you out.

I'm sorry but spending 1300 for a a6 swap is rediculous. And only a shop owner would recommend doing that in a 17 year old car.

The mpfi wiring is simple and the instructions are found on Lady's site... unless the site is down or it has been removed. Either way, if you are having second thoughts about your tech friend doing the swap because of wiring then contact bambam89lx and he can hook you up. He is also located in the Ct area and has done a lot of work for dude's in NJ and the tri-state area. He makes harnesses. Although, he is in the Navy so who knows if he's actually around.



i'm sorry but only a non shop owner would have zero clue what engines are going for.

the a6 or sohc zc are going for $600-800 + $500 labor = $1100-1300

now if you think investing $1300 for a really low mile engine into your 17yr old car verses spending $1300+ to buy another car is ridicilous....well, that's your personal opinion.


as for where the Jap Engine Inc is located, shoot I don't know off hand. i do know i order an engine and it's literally here the very next day. which is crazy because i have ordered at 4:45pm and it still arrived the next day.

the MPFI is on www.DownToGround.net but i'm not exactly sure where. 90civicrider made me the new site so i'll have to look up where it was moved to. i have known many people to follow those instructions and have zero problems. i have also recieved MANY e-mails over the years saying HELP! i messed up somewhere and don't know where? like i said before, some people just shouldn't be messing with wires. can your guy do it? i don't know...ask him some questions and see how comfortable he is with rewiring.

if bambam89lx is in your area, by all means get ahold of that guy! i can tell you right now he can handle MPFI wiring, no questions asked.




EDIT: i found the MPFI link: http://www.downtoground.net/knowledgebase/?p=43

Just because I don't own an auto shop doesn't mean I don't have common sense. You want to put a better engine in your old car. Put whatever engine you want into it... GL

I think you just forgot about the labor Turtle, because the price she shows for the motor is about right, then having someone install it would probably be around there, I don't know for sure, I don't own a shop and I don't let shops work on my car.

The hardest part on this swap is going to be the MPFI conversion, and its not really that complicated if you have an idea on wiring, just take your time on it. Its usually when people rush when things go wrong.

I just got through pulling 2 motors out of 2 EG civics and installing one this weekend, and was really simple. The hardest part I had was finding hook points to lift the motor out and put it in level.

Thanks very much to everyone who posted here. Lady and Turtle have both made very valid arguments.

People have informed me here and elsewhere that Rywire makes a kit for multipoint. It sounds like if i bought this kit and gave it to the kid it would largely eliminate the possibility of him screwing up the MPFI wiring. The price of the kit would be like a little insurance for me.

Rywire makes a kit and so does BamBam, I just don't know if he is in right now.

i would go bambam. rywire left a bad taste in my mouth when 1 of their people signed up for here, fished for threads with wiring questions, and left replies saying if you buy their stuff, free tech support.

how are you going to go into a free forum and post about if you buy my stuff i'll help you :shakehead that is treading really close to breaking the spam rules and distasteful if you ask me.

bambam has been helping people around here for years for free. if your on the east coast, check him out!

or check out http://www.boomslang.us/

Lady & Tony,
Thanks again very much for your input.

...Have you tried running your current D15 on thicker weight oil? You should pour in some 20w-50 and run that sucker till it dies. I know a lot of people will dissagree but you will only see like a 10 hp difference with an A6.

CRX,

Again thanks for your post. I've adopted your plan of sticking with my current engine for now. (It's certainly cost effective!! :smokin: )

I've been managing my car's oil consumption problem with more frequent oil change intervals. And since i'm chaning oil ever 2,000 miles i figure it's change oil filters every other OCI (4,000 miles).

As stated earlier, fresh oil can make a tremendous difference in old civics.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=710084


My next oil will be SuperTech high mileage oil. $7.50 per quart at Wallyworld.

Stick with one type of oil. Don't change it around. Just stay away from Penzoil unless thats what your already using.

I've been a fan of Castrol, but don't have a problem with Mobil 1 either. Tried switching to it once with my hatchback, but got more engine noise out of it so I went back to Castrol since that was what I had been running.

This could just be some crazy thing I have, but I don't like switching it around. I think the motor gets used to how one oil is formulated over others. If you want a high mileage oil, just step up the viscosity a step.

^ Castrol FTW.

Tony & CRX,

Thanks to both of you for responding. But the way my car goes through oil Castrol and Mobile 1 simply are not cost efficient.

In my car, fresh cheap dino is superior to Mobile 1 that's got 1800 miles on it (fuel gets passed rings and mixes with oil).

I just read through this post and noticed you used oil additives early on in your struggle. I've found for the most part they are useless, so your on the right tracking messing with different oil weight options. Just a note, I love keeping my car well maintained and used to used sludge removing treatments at my oil changes. Turned out a lot of people on this forum have found sludge is helpful in maintaining compression, and oil lifespan. This is very true, before my swap I got very nervous about all the sludge that musta been in there but the motor is still running strong in another car..(320K)

Thanks for posting, Viper.


Just a note, I love keeping my car well maintained and used to used sludge removing treatments at my oil changes. Turned out a lot of people on this forum have found sludge is helpful in maintaining compression, and oil lifespan. This is very true, before my swap I got very nervous about all the sludge that musta been in there but the motor is still running strong in another car..(320K)

Yes i've heard this argument before and i don't doubt that it has merit. Many say that cleaning sludge will cause leaks. But i'm not sure that the 'sludge is good' argument applies to every situation.


A few years ago I cleaned my sludge monster with Auto RX which is like a 'safe gentle' version of a Gunk flush -- very effective. And my car was absolutely faster -- no doubt! Valve ticking went away -- even when on lower octane gas. It felt like someone installed a new engine for 20 bucks.

So i guess it depends on the degree of sludging, i guess.

You can stick with regular Castrol GTX and its still cheap, its what I run in my race car because I can't afford Syntec.

For the sludge arguement: It can go both ways. If my motor doesn't already have sludge, I prefer to keep it that way. A little bit of sludge already in it, it isn't that bad, but I wouldn't try and flush it out because of it could be sealing some leaks or whatever. Sludge from like Penzoil...yes I would flush that and keep my fingers crossed.

You can stick with regular Castrol GTX and its still cheap, its what I run in my race car because I can't afford Syntec.

For the sludge arguement: It can go both ways. If my motor doesn't already have sludge, I prefer to keep it that way. A little bit of sludge already in it, it isn't that bad, but I wouldn't try and flush it out because of it could be sealing some leaks or whatever. Sludge from like Penzoil...yes I would flush that and keep my fingers crossed.

I've heard people dissing penzoil. I don't really know the details behind it though. Do they not have as high a standard as other company? Use cheaper addititives, etc? I don't use it btw..Just curious

I don't know what they do different, but all the really bad motors I have seen had used Pennzoil. Something about it, it just likes to sludge up really bad. I have heard people not having a problem out of it...until they tried switching. But I will admit, most of the bad motors I have seen, are high mileage and were problably neglected. So Pennzoil might be alright if you change it regularly, but I still prefer Castrol, I know it will hold up to some negligence, which I do tend to do sometimes.

Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead a little (2 months seems bad).

On this swap you guys didn't mention how long putting an engine would take? I'm just curious because I wouldn't mind keep my 17 year old car for another 17 (hey, by then it would a classic right? : D).

If these parts are so "plug'n'play" what would it take? I need to know good places to find engines too. Classifields is one, but are there any others?

Thanks.

Skate,

me and you think a lot a like. Reading your post makes me think how I would post something. I analyze things to the fullest and always try to make smart decisions.

Cool

I find craigslist is a gem when it comes to hunting for engines and parts. The swap would take a weekend at the most if your an idiot without access to tools or the use of your hands..

I find craigslist is a gem when it comes to hunting for engines and parts. The swap would take a weekend at the most if your an idiot without access to tools or the use of your hands..


Good to know, I guess I'll be in the market looking for an engine replacement with low low miles. The only thing that sucks is not knowing the condition the engine is in untill you have it installed. I'd hate to get burned. I have dealt with some shady people on craigslist when I used to sell my used computer equipment..

Good to know, I guess I'll be in the market looking for an engine replacement with low low miles. The only thing that sucks is not knowing the condition the engine is in untill you have it installed. I'd hate to get burned. I have dealt with some shady people on craigslist when I used to sell my used computer equipment..

Legend,

I've thought about this quite a bit. I certainly would not want to pay someone one thousand dollars to swap an engine in my car and find out that it's garbage.

My idea is to purchase a low miles engine from a reputable jdm shop -- one with a solid seller rating on ebay. Then have compression tests done BEFORE dropping in the engine. (i think there are two types of compression tests that can be done -- a dry and a wet.) It's my guess that these this procedure will minimize the possibility of installing a crap engine.

I might have new gaskets put on the engine also. I understand that this is mucho easier with the engine out.

The other people on this forum might get an engine from the yard or craig's list. But i'm not going to try it simply because i don't know squat about engines.

skate

you can swap a d series in a weekend..it really isnt hard..after my motor blew in my hatch i had all the hoses and wires disconnected, the exhaust off, radiator out, and all i had left to do was remove the axles (which can be a pain sometimes depending on if they havent been changed, the ball joints sometimes give ppl the runaround) and loosen the motor mounts all on the first night i got it. you can take it apart (tranny, block, head) but itll take longer and you might as well pull it out as one unit. i put a b series in the crx but it takes a little while to sit right since its bigger. i dont think youll have much of a problem doing it with it all the help threads. have you looked at hondatech's removal guide? i think ami might have one on her site but i just used internet guides with pictures and the handy dandy haynes manual. just keep your nuts and bolts organized since its your first time. then if you get another honda down the road youll be able to do it pretty much from memory. im lucky i didnt have to do the mpfi wiring tho. the only problem is now since i didnt work on my b16 when it was out i now have to change the clutch, so id definately change gaskets, and replace anything else like belts that have been sitting for a while

Update: My car is no longer a candidate for an engine swap. I'd be better off buying another Civic than trying to salvage my own.

I've received some really sad news. Based on the my conversation with three different mechanics (1) i've concluded that my EF is no longer a good candidate for an engine swap.

About six or seven months ago little rust spots that appeared on the rocker panels. I didn't think they were that big of a deal. They got worse. (the car was totaled many years ago and the rust slowly developed in the area which was once repaired -- it did hold together well for approximately 14 years)

Yesterday a body shop guy -- a friend of a friend who is decent -- told me that it be from 300 to 450 to fix. He said he'd have to weld steel to it. There wasn't enough good metal for it to be a 'bondo' job.

This rocker panel by itself isn't terribly significant. But i've also got a new oil leak. Mechanics said it looks like a rear main seal. The car as other issues also.

(1) Years ago i met up with these wonderful Puerto Rican guys. They've been a great help to me and saved me oodles over the years. And I'm quick to recommend them to anyone.

But now they're advising me to hang it up.

Now, when two Puerto Rican mechanics from North Philly tell you that your 4rth generation civic isn't worth salvaging -- that's really bad! Whereas if this advice came from some white guy from the burbs I wouldn't be concerned.


Thanks to all on this forum for providing me with a lot of good info over the years.