ive got a brother that says he is ready to go to the dark side, and buy a toyota or nissan.:screwy:
says american cars are junk and over priced:banghead:

I need some good arguements to try to save him, I was so surprised when I talked to him I didnt say anything:disappoin
any one have any good ammo??
I need to try to save him:naughty:

ive got a brother that says he is ready to go to the dark side, and buy a toyota or nissan.:screwy:
says american cars are junk and over priced:banghead:

I need some good arguements to try to save him, I was so surprised when I talked to him I didnt say anything:disappoin
any one have any good ammo??
I need to try to save him:naughty:

The 1990 Honda Accord (a midsize car unlike the Civic) that caused this was dispatched into gear-and-oil heaven. Ripped the whole back end off - this happened after he was T-boned in the rear wheel well by my '88 Caprice (pictures below) with an impact speed of ~35 MPH.

http://www.silicon212.org/IMAGE008.JPG
http://www.silicon212.org/IMAGE009.JPG
http://www.silicon212.org/IMAGE010.JPG

The depicted damage cost $250-300 to fix and there's no trace that an accident ever happened to my car. The Accord was narrowed by about a foot to a foot and a half (12-18") from just ahead of the rear wheel to where the rear of the car used to be. The impact threw the Accord airborne, it then came back down on my car causing most of the damage to the header panel and hood. My car got a black eye and the other car was an instant fatality (the car, not the unharmed driver). To be fair, my car had (and still has) large rubber block pushbumpers.

He got the ticket.

Anyways, this is why I will always drive a larger American car.

Dammit, Si! He broke your headlight with his Honda! Scuffed the paint, too! I'd be mad as Hell and shaking my fist at him as I drove away, watching his car being dragged up onto the flatbed...


85lolo,

If you want to demonstrate just how "good" the Toyotas and Nissans and Hondas compare, go no further than here. Have the potiential buyer skim the boards in those AF Forums, and see the kinds of problems they have. Also take note of the recent millions of vehicles recalled by all of them for problems. Toyota is actually considering a delayed release of some 2007 models as a result of recalls and design problems. And it's not just those built in the U.S. that are having problems. The most recent Toyota recall involved about 580,000 Toyotas built in the U.S. and over a million of them built in Japan. Then again, you can't reason with a soccer mom.

in would never try to help you on this one, i'm gonna get flamed for this but most american cars have enginering from 10 years ago, inferior engine and suspension designs and are less reliable. let him go see the light not the dark side of imports.

No, we don't allow "flaming" in the forums. I would agree that MANY domestic vehicles have engineering from 10 years ago. The BEST ones have some engineering from 30 years ago. Considering that even the fastest design-to-production by ANY global automotive company EVER was 16 months, no car has "new" engineering designs. Good examples are the SBC-II engines. They first appeared on CAD scopes back in 1992, so they are almost 15 years old. They are still a superior design to any regular production V-8, including those with 140 valves, 60 camshafts, seven boxes of roller chain, and cast unobtanium valve covers. Chrysler large platform RWD sedans are based on a 1996 prototype platform. The Lexus ES series are already a 10-year old platform, with some elements reaching back as far as 15 years. Conversely, the new GM Y-Cars are a three-year new design, and the Ford mid-sizes are newer than that.

And for all the "old technology" you'll find in domestics, try to find ONE asian import with a 6-speed automatic, or modulated/variable displacement. GM has been producing 6-speed automatics since 1962. They had displacement on demand back in 1981. They are both available in cars and trucks right now, and JATCO is still trying to catch up. Look at all those "wonderful" pieces of engineering in IRL/CART races. All that high technology fuel, chassis, transmisison,and ignition management is performed by a DELPHI control system because it's what works the best for winning in the "ultimate automotive engineering competitions" (you DID know that Delphi is was a GM company, right?).

Further, something NEW isn't necessarily better. I'd sooner take the 8.75" 12-bolt 35 year old GM/Saginaw rear axle on my new truck than anything offered under an import truck.

The point is that the lines are not so well-defined as the Marketing Departments of import car companies might try to make you beileve. The data (especially recently) doesn't support the claims.

Dammit, Si! He broke your headlight with his Honda! Scuffed the paint, too! I'd be mad as Hell and shaking my fist at him as I drove away, watching his car being dragged up onto the flatbed...

Heh. He DID have insurance on his car, he got it the morning of the day I hit him as he pulled out in front of me!

Yeah, he gave my car a black eye, but he also gave his own car a tombstone. :evillol:

After I hit him and my car came to a stop, I get out and run toward his car to see if he was alright - well he got out of his car and got on his cell phone - to talk to a friend about it and not police. All I could do was scream "I hope you have insurance" at him and walk back to my car and call the cops. I didn't have to shake my fist, looking at the damage to his car was gleeful enough. :iceslolan

Did you notice that the bumper was almost undamaged? Har, say THAT for any current import!


Oh, per above about variable displacement etc., Toyota/Lexus has VVT-i and Honda/Acura has VTEC - but the current GM DoD is a more elegant solution.
As to the 1981 version, I think some GM engineer had it hard for the Olds 350, because they based their 5.7l diesel on this as well as the 4-6-8 engine.

all this about the old engineering from 30 years ago, yes they may be somewhat reliable, but poor fuel ecconomy and terrible suspension setups go along with it.. dod is a good thing when you need torque in a truck or something like that, for a truck i would stay gm. as far as engine designs go, have you seen an na vehicle in any domestic application that does 100-120 hp per liter, i haven't. the newer infinity's and lexus have 6 speed auto's, but its not really necessary to have a 6 speed when the fuel ecconomy is that much better. that is why they came out with a 6 speed at first right? also, try to throw some boost at most dpmestics in stock form, you can't boost much and can't last that long. take a mitsu 4g63 rod and mate in next to a chevy 350 rod, you will see what i mean. also, its nice to have a fully counter weighted crank from the factory balanced to 9k. i don't see any domestic applications doing this. as far as the car getting damaged from getting hit, they all have crumple zones now, this is to save your life not your car. saved my life once

all this about the old engineering from 30 years ago, yes they may be somewhat reliable, but poor fuel ecconomy and terrible suspension setups go along with it.. dod is a good thing when you need torque in a truck or something like that, for a truck i would stay gm. as far as engine designs go, have you seen an na vehicle in any domestic application that does 100-120 hp per liter, i haven't. the newer infinity's and lexus have 6 speed auto's, but its not really necessary to have a 6 speed when the fuel ecconomy is that much better. that is why they came out with a 6 speed at first right? also, try to throw some boost at most dpmestics in stock form, you can't boost much and can't last that long. take a mitsu 4g63 rod and mate in next to a chevy 350 rod, you will see what i mean. also, its nice to have a fully counter weighted crank from the factory balanced to 9k. i don't see any domestic applications doing this. as far as the car getting damaged from getting hit, they all have crumple zones now, this is to save your life not your car. saved my life once

If you don't see domestics doing this, I suggest you go and have a chat with the Cavalier 2.2 boys. As for the rod comparisons, those SB Chevy rods are known to last on 600HP engines, so that's not a good comparison. As for suspensions on domestics, I guess you haven't seen the Corvettes, or cars of that ilk, then.

Also, horsepower is a misleading term. True performance is torque, the H.P. numbers are derived from torque at a given RPM. 100 HP per liter isn't super special if the engine has to spool to 9K to obtain that. NASCAR engines, which are 358 cubes (5.9 liters) develop 850 HP from 7500RPM, much more than 120 HP/liter and they have the torque to back them up. Sure, it's a NASCAR engine and not a production engine, but what production, stock import generates those kind of numbers, anyway?

While we're comparing connecting rods of various engines, let's look at one very popular mod import engine - the Honda D16Y8 (used in Civics, etc). I have one of these engines disassembled and on a crate in a trailer. The engine met its demise due to a hydrolock condition because the owner of the car wanted to 'increase its performance' with a cold-air intake. Worked great until he drove through a puddle of water. Long story short, block damaged and #1 rod bent. Place that rod next to a Chevy rod and compare the two - the Chevy looks like a piece of railroad rail next to the cutlery of the Honda rod.

what stock rods are going to last on 600 hp, u talking v8 or 2.2 eco-tech. the ecotech is only good to about 300 whp. any car that gets hydro locked will have the same problem, but you are comparing apples to oranges. the d16 is an ecconomy engine, plain and simple, but if done right can handle 230whp safely, it's all in the tuning. torque doesn't win races hp does, while horsepower is a coefficient of torque, gear ratio and final drive are not taken into effect at this point, honda b16a, designed in '89 makes 160 hp from a 1.6. at around 7k. still gets 30 mpg and can be built to have much more power just like any motor. they have torque because of displacement, nascar is an old technology racing if you ask me, besides delphi, they still use bosch also in those series. this is a useless arguement, i have my opinion, you have yours. you won't convince me and i won't convince you. if anyone of those v8's would use variable lift cams, they would make serious power.

The best part about the whole discussion is that it demonstrates we can have disagreements about philosphy, and remain civil about it. Everyone has an opinion, and opinions frequently mesh like square pegs and round holes. No one is right. No one is wrong. And more importantly, no one is demeaning or insulting.

Special thanks to sr20dk, to silicon212, and to all who participated for demonstrating to EVERYONE that there can be frank discussion with polarizing opinions, and people can still retain their composure and respectability. While our experiences and opinions may not be comparable, I feel compelled to salute both sr20dk and silicon212 for their admirable conduct in the discussion.

It would be wonderful if everyone else would see this and learn from it.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

sr20dk,

I haven't seen a lot of your postings, but if another moderator or administrator ever questions your post content, intent, or language, please feel free to refer them back to this post and myself. While I may not be able to sway anyone,I can certainly point out and argue this example of your integrity.

BTW - That's not a license to start using the "seven dirty words" however... ;)

thank you for the compliment, i have been doing this long enough to know without a ride in a fast import 4 cyl, you can't change most people's minds. that is also what makes going to the track fun. all in all i would just like to have a rational discussion than an argument. thank you.
drew

The best part about the whole discussion is that it demonstrates we can have disagreements about philosphy, and remain civil about it. Everyone has an opinion, and opinions frequently mesh like square pegs and round holes. No one is right. No one is wrong. And more importantly, no one is demeaning or insulting.

Special thanks to sr20dk, to silicon212, and to all who participated for demonstrating to EVERYONE that there can be frank discussion with polarizing opinions, and people can still retain their composure and respectability. While our experiences and opinions may not be comparable, I feel compelled to salute both sr20dk and silicon212 for their admirable conduct in the discussion.

It would be wonderful if everyone else would see this and learn from it.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

sr20dk,

I haven't seen a lot of your postings, but if another moderator or administrator ever questions your post content, intent, or language, please feel free to refer them back to this post and myself. While I may not be able to sway anyone,I can certainly point out and argue this example of your integrity.

BTW - That's not a license to start using the "seven dirty words" however... ;)

Grin.

I'm quite the artist at political debate, myself. I've participated in many a debate and have always been able to do so with civility - but rest assured that there's just as much, if not more, personal attacks in political debate as opposed to a Ford/Chevy debate etc., although we all know that those can get pretty heated too.

The art of any debate is to get a point across without descending into delete-o-bomb territory. Besides, it makes you look better when you're not the one kicking and screaming and throwing things at your monitor. It makes your argument stronger. :smokin: :)

ok i have a few points to make here. first of all, i have to hand it to rodders and tuners alike, because if you have a passion for something, who gives a damn what someone else says, its your passion, not theirs. I can appreciate the high rpm pull of an import engine, though my alleigance is with domestic vehicles.

anyways, to start off, i would like to say that this whole mileage thing as imports being supposedly better than domestics is total b.s. there are plusses and minuses on both sides of the argument. my carbureted honda accord i drive temporarily while i am restoring my truck gets 25 mpg in the city, but that is because the motor makes a measly 75 horsepower (i looked it up). The 350 that was in my truck could pull down only 10 mpg in the city, but it made at least 250 horsepower, and was in a vehicle weighing over 1500 more pounds and it usually didnt fire in the #1 cylinder to top that off, so 1/8 of the fuel going in didnt even get burnt, which is why i ditched that motor for a totally new one, though a new cap and rotor probably could have solved that one. i wanted a 383 anyways lol...

another point tuners make is that their cars make over 1 horsepower per cube while domestic engines dont. this is true because of the fact that import motors rev so high. in the lower rpms, under 6000rpm, they get stomped by domestic motors where it counts...on the street. basically, tuner motors are made for high rpm horsepower and domestic motors are tuned for low rpm torque because of the typical vehicles each goes into. trust me, it is easy as pie to make a 350 chevy motor pump out 400 horsepower at under 5500 rpm, theres tons of combos to make this happen very cheaply. i saw a 383 combo for example that makes 500 lb ft of torque and still manages 450 horsepower all on regular pump gas.

another reason imports are more powerful per liter or whatever is that many of them are not naturally aspirated. many domestic motors dont handle forced induction as well because they werent designed specifically for it like some import motors. if gm wanted to, they could make a production 6 liter v-8 with a huge blower on it that would likely make 800 horsepower, but why the hell would they need to lol...

I know that imports have their plusses and minuses, but there are a lot of things domestics have to offer and sometimes old technology isnt changed for a reason... it was right in the first place. nothing quite runs as good as an old style smallblock chevy lol.

time for me to rest my freakin fingers...

i'm done with arguing my point on this one, you can spend less money on a nissan se-r and boost it to 400hp on a stock block, than you can to make 400 hp out of a small block. an evo, dsm, sti all will make better power than 100hp per liter, try 200 hp easy. if you go forced induction you are talking a whole different ball game, without an expensive engine build you won't even come close. as long as your gear ratio's are correct, revving high is not a disadvantage at all. performance parts are not as cheap for imports as domestics, but hey for better performance you have to pay to play. either way is expensive. a honda motor built for n/a and also a nissan motor for the same have been taken around the 400 whp mark with stock internals also. you are talking about a carb'ed accord, not new technology that is lightyears above what honda used to have. cars are also lighter, which to me is better, why do i want a huge chunk of steel with a heavy ass motor to try and steer around, i don't only go straight.
drew