Evening guys.
I'm looking at buying a new high performance alternator for my civic, and they are jsut a tad bit on the expensive side........ I've heard of people using GM 110 amp alternators, and nobody is willing to tell me if they had to buy a mounting bracket or anything. Im assuming that they had to fabricate the alternator to fit in there... (difference in belts, plugs, mounts/hardware....)
Everyone tells me To used a Cavvy or Regal alternator (of which i have a a brand new regal alternator being unused at the moment). And i UNderstand that these are all internally regulated so i wouldnt have to worry about destroying my electrical system, But I Dont want to even attempt to do this unless i know everything and anything that could go wrong/right.
Maybe you guys can lead me in the right way? (either way, this puny lil alternator was never meant to handle a 2000 watt amplifier...... it makes everything dim, and i think a cap is going to be a waste of time......)
Thanks,
Bill

2000 watts is the max power right? What is the rms or constant rating for the amp if you don't know please post the Make and model of the amp and I'll help. A cap would stop the dimming and would be easier than adding an alternator. To add a second alternator or to use one from any other engine you will need to fabricate a mounting bracket and may need a different size belt.
Check my electrical thread.
LINKY LINKY (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=4032881#post4032881)

okay, its a 2000 watt amplifier, w/80 amp fuse, there 700 watts rms (i believe thats what it said on the box anyways), 2 channel amp. The amp is CEA 2006 (or 2006 cea ceritfied... something like that) certified ( i believe thats how it was spelt on the box). i have 4awg running from the battery back to the amp, and 4awg running from the amp to the ground. i have an 100 amp inline fuse in the power cable), its a custom amp kit, i didnt want to buy a 4awg kit and have it be 8awg (actuall thickness of the wire, not the casing; if you know what im trying to say). Would it make a difference if i had like one 2.0 cap, or four .5 caps? I dont exactly have cash at the moment, so if i could get them like .5 at a time that would be great. If not i'll save.. haha...
Thanks,
Bill

You need like a 1 farad cap. Some thing like $100 or so, not to big. What type of amplifier, sounds like a sony xplod.

yeah it is an xplod. Nice amp, but im most deffinetely not a fan on there subs.... or maybe i got a set of disfuntional ones. these are living upto the name. but im not worried about them, there easy enough to run accross.
Decent for what i need it for.
Thanks, I'll Grab a 1.0 cap.
Any specific brand for a cap?
Bill

Caps don't really do anything, once the amp unloads and uses caps energy then your alternator needs to work much harder to regenirate the capacitor. Just do the big 3 wiring upgrade (grounds, +, and alternator wiring with bigger gauge wires) and if that doesn't work get a better alternator.

You aren't even taking into consideration that there is a battery in line with this whole circuit. Because that battery is there, it creates the buffer required to keep the alternator from working any harder than normal. That's why adding a cap makes such a difference. If you were driving all your power from the alternator only then it would be a different story, and don't try to tell me that when the car is running that the battery doesn't do anything because it does. If you don't believe me you can test it yourself. Remove the battery while the car is running and turn on your headlights, stereo, and ac. Watch you motor strain under the pressure of running everything off the alterntor, then add the battery back and watch it ease up. When you change the wiring for the battery, alternator and grounds, all you do is provide a larger pathway for the electrons to flow so not only do you provide more electricity to the application you also take it away just as fast. The quickest way to reduce dimming headlights on any vehicle is to add a second battery or cap. Read my electrical thread for the theory (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=4032881#post4032881).

Oh and for brand, I would stick with Power Acoustik or Stinger, you're not using enough power yet to really matter what brand, but if you decide to upgrade later and pull more watts then you are going to want a trusty cap. For now anything will do though.

fiberglasscivic, I agree with you 100% on the capacitor.

Pavlo, Where did you get your information regarding capacitors doing nothing?

tomogchi, Be carefull when installing the cap. One wrong move and your hand/arm/eyes/life go bye bye. Serious.

Capasitor Works Great 100% agree to that....Help Power Amp and lights going crazy. But if your battery weak or Alternator sucks then try the lovely Grounding box (Volt Stablizer Box) should help alot in energy stuff. Which ever way is nice and does the same thing. I think a bigger Alternator is gonna mess up your electrical and might fry things up. Good Luck Dude

Higher amperage alternators only push more power when the car is above idle. When the car is idle, the high performance alternator will actually push less amperage. The only factor that will mess up the electrical is a higher voltage, eg 24V. That is what the voltage regulator is for.

A bigger alternator won't mess anything up and all the stabilizer box is, is a capacitor. Hooking up a small output cap (below 500 farads) won't blow your arm off. It will however cause pretty nasty electrical burns if you try to discharge it while you're really close. I've worked with high voltage capacitors for a long time and know that the only time you get hurt is if you're being stupid.

"I've worked with high voltage capacitors"

High voltage or high farad's? There is a huge difference. I would like to discuss this. Do you realize what a 500 farad capacitor would look like? Have you ever seen what a short on a 1 farad capacitor looks like? Keep in mind that I am an EE, so please challenge me.

Accident's do not always happen because you are being stupid.

I forgot to add, tomogchi, in the interim, please do not trust fiberglasscivic comment about a 500 farad not blowing your arm off . A capacitor of that size would probably blow your house and possibly your neighbor's as well. Here are the calculations:
Energy in Joules (J) = 1/2 CVV
Having a direct short, (considered as a discharge of less than .5 seconds) 10 J can be lethal. Do the math.
C is Capacitance in farads
V is Voltage in volts
1F cap @ 12 V
1/2 x 1 *(12*12) = 72 J Yes that means you could die.
5000F @ 12 V = 360,000 J
1 pound of TNT has 2,100,000 J of energy.
72 J seems small in comparison to the 1 lb of TNT, but I cannot stress enough, be careful.
I am making this statement for safety and discussion and not as a means for argument

A GOOD high output alternator like Ohio Generator will not put out less amerage at idel than OEM. They run a smaller pulley to produce a higher output at idel. I have a 170amp ohio gen high output altenrator, and it puts out 80 amps at idel, which is more than the oem civic alternator max and out the max output of the oem B18B1 alternator. 170 volts max without dropping below 13.2volts, 160 without going below 14v, and 80 amps at idel is more than oem. Peak power is like, 1500rpm or so too, so it's pretty much peak output even in city driving.

However, as was said, a GOOD HO alternator like this isn't cheap. I have a wholesale account with Ohio Gen, and wholesale was like $450. It's a good alternator though. 1500 watts rms (1200rms PG monoblock and 300 watt rms PG 4 channel). I know for a fact it's running the wattage it's running, cuz we tuned it properly to that. Anyways, there is no dimming or anything, car works fine and all. Even at idel, it's fine. On the road, fine. You'll need to upgrade the charge wire with an HO alternator. If it has an OEM sized post (like 6mm), you'll want to use 4 gauge. The post is small and to make a long story short, a 0 gauge wire will case a back-up and fire the first postive diode of the altenrator "every time," as most manufactuers have put it. If it has a bigger post like wrangler it is a different story. Anyways, you'll run the upgraded charge the same way the oem one was ran, directly into the fuse box. It doesn't hurt to ungrade the fuse box to battery power wire and the battery ground to the same gauge also.

Most stereo guys will tell you a cap is usually more of a band-aid. If your in need of more power, the cap won't produce more power, it only covers the fact you need it. This is because it sucks up power and unloads it quickly, where-as a battery takes longer to suck up power and doesn't liuke to unload it, it wants to keep it. There is a company, Kinetik power, which make batteries that will unload and recharge quickly, kind of a "cap killer" as they call it. That battery with a good HO alternaotr is a killer combo. However, the batteries cost an arm and a leg at MSRP. There are situations where you are right on the cusp and a cap is all that's needed.

Remember, when figuring out what sized cap or altenrator you need, you'll go off of the RMS wattage, which you said was 700watts RMS, NOT peak output.

http://www.kinetikpower.com/
http://www.ohiogen.com/
Phone: 330-875-6677 (talk to gus)
As for the GM alternator, you'd need to make a new bracket more likly, and put on a different sized alternator belt, at the very least. I've never gone that route, I've always got a HO alternator (I admit wholesale helps $$ wise).

For caps, stinger should be fine. 1 farad would be the recommended size. Most caps on the market come from the same factory anyways.

If you get a HO alterantor you won't need a cap, and ohio gen will tell you not to use one. Gus is pretty cool, and should help exlpain things to you if you call and have questions about it.

I hope I was a little bit of a help.

As for electrical, always be careful, regardless of whether it can blow your arm off or not. Electricity is something I'd never cut corners with. Be smart and do it right when hooking things up, don't get lazy!!

Too cause leathal death with 10J you need to discharge directly across the heart and when I said I've worked with high voltage caps I meant high voltage. 14,000 volts isn't something to mess around with but unless you make yourself the discharge path for the electricity (being stupid) then you are in no harm of death or blown limbs. I've met a few people who discharged 14,000 volts through their hand and blew off a finger because they were wearing a ring. That's why it's recommended that when working with high voltage (and as a rule of thumb electricity in general) that you don't wear jewelry. You can't blow off a limb without giving the electricity a stopping point. So I will agree with you that you're right that when I said that accidents only happen when people are being stupid. What I should have said is most of the time. But giving a warning about death by a 1 farad cap is like telling a whole group of kids who are about to go swimming to be careful because all it takes is a teaspoon of water to drown (which is true). To cause a discharge across the heart you would, at the least, have to grab each terminal, one in each hand. Even then you may have to force a discharge by holding the ground side to the frame and more than likely you would need to touch each side of the terminal to each side of your chest so the electrical potential could be felt across gap. You are talking about discharging through a resistor and depending on the resistance determines the ability to discharge fast enough.

Capacitors used for car applications are @ 12V (some 16V). We are not dealing with high voltage. We will take your 14,000 V (volts) and 1 F (farad). That would be 98,000,000 J (joules) or 9.8x10^7 J. Little Boy (the bomb dropped in Hiroshima) had an energy equivalent to 15,000 tons of TNT or 6.3x10^13 J. Do you realize that you are playing with toys that can destroy a large city? Please keep it in your parents house, don't venture outside :)

I think you are taking my comment as saying that if the body touches the positive and negative posts of the capacitor that will cause an explosion. With the knowledge that you have with capacitors I took into account that you would understand that the body has a high resistance. There is no way that a capacitor can discharge it's potential energy in less than .5 seconds through the human body (see above). I am saying that a direct short (direct short being a metal object) would cause the capacitor to explode. Just like the TNT example, TNT explodes releasing it's energy, not the matter around it.

Where did you get the 14,000 watts (correction: I read your second post, it reads 14,000 V)? I have done all calculations regarding the numbers I posted and none come to 14,000 W (correction:I read your second post, it reads 14,000 V). What are your calculations? Are you getting your terminology mixed up? You really think that I am joking about a one farad cap blowing up. I can't say try it and post your findings, that would result in a lawsuit from your parents. How long have you been designing circuits? Did they not teach you the principles on capacitors in college? If you grab each post of the capacitor, the resistance is so high nothing should happen. That is why I put in the post a discharge time of .5 seconds. Just like a car battery. Sure they are big, but people are not dying daily from touching car battery posts, resistance is to high. A direct short is a different story. That I have seen happen, as I am sure a few people have.

EDITED: 14,000 volts is what I worked with when I worked on air traffic control radars. I'm 22 and my parents wouldn't be filing any lawsuit and I've been discharging capacitors for over 3 years now (to include 12V caps for car applications). The point was that I've worked with much larger applications and understand the potential dangers. and if you know anything about discharging capacitors you should know that when you go to work on an electrical system with capacitors in it that you want to discharge the capacitors so as not to cause any esd (electrostaic discharge) problems which could damage the equipment you work with. It is safe to discharge a cap by shorting the leads if you use some sort of non-conductive tool to do it so that you aren't close to the spark (which can cause serious electrical burns). You would usually use a grounding stick, a wooden pole with a metal hook on the end, to short the leads. I did it on a daily basis when I worked on air traffic control radars. Explosions only happen when another chemical becomes part of the equasion or external heat is applied. If discharging the capacitor was such an unsafe process then it wouldn't be feasable to use in any type of audio system where an unexperienced person could kill themself. If you read the saftey instructions included with most caps and follow them closely you won't be in any danger of death.

polacek PM me please (I can't PM you).

eckoman pdx thanks for the links and the info.

Easy there. I am not the one with the terminology issue. Again, we are dealing with 1F @ 12 V, not F? (whatever size that may be?) @ 14,000V. I hope that I have shown that I am not full of BS, numbers show it, btw EE stands for Electrical Engineer. I do not want this to continue on forever but, to end this, would YOU feel safe to short circuit a 1 farad @ 12V, without some wooden stick in your garage only wearing a T-shirt and shorts? Have you ever done it that way?

Don't you tear the paper lining on the inside of the capacitor each time you short out a capacitor, thus destroying the capacitor capacity? What about the surrounding electronics that are near the capacitors within those radar's? Isn't there a possibility that an ESS chip be ruined using that practice? I wouldn't want that job, knowing that safest way to discharge a cap is with a stick, hoping that you don't get burnt from the flying spark.

Interesting that you say to read the instructions. Mine says
"Improper use or failure to follow these directions could result in severe personal injury and / or damage to your system and vehicle."
Maybe you won't die, but I like all of my fingers.

eckoman pdx thanks for the links and the info.

NP, thats why we're all here.

In a way I agree about caps, but when the cap unloads, the battery along with the alternator will have to regenerate the lost power, there fore working harder then usual. I still think that upgrading your + and - wires with a higher gauge, along with the alternator wire, will eliminate the problem, unless you are running some really high wattage system.

Hey, fiberglasscivic. Just wondering if you had a chance to look at my last post. Waiting for a response.

Polacek, I don't doubt for a minute that you have more book taught knowledge than I do or that you may have more working experience with all kinds of electrical applications. The information I provide is based off what I've been taught and what I've seen working in the field, just as I'm sure that you are. This will be my last post about this in this thread. If you want to continue this discussion you can email me at aaron_salyer@yahoo.com or you can open a new thread and I'll be glad to continue this discussion. I know that there is potential that I may learn something as well as other forums members.


Yes, I have discharged car audio caps without using a grounding stick, by connecting a 4 awg wire between the two terminals so that when I was moving it around for storage I wouldn't have to worry about it falling and discharging on a piece of scrap metal.
I'm not sure whether or not a full discharge tears the paper wrapping inside the capacitor, I would have to go back through my books. It's been awhile since I needed to know the physical damage done to capacitor by a discharge. Even if it does tear during a discharge that would also mean that every time the capacitor discharges to provide the circuit that it's in with it's electricity that it would damage the capacitor. I'm not saying you're wrong or right. I'm saying I don't know.
No the ess equipment is safer when the capacitors are discharged and someone is doing maintenance. Most adjustments and part replacements need to be done without high voltage still on the system. I would rather discharge those capacitors so that I know there's less chance of me touching something that would otherwise be charged with 14,000 V.
Have you ever discharged a 1 farad cap @ 12V?

Pavlo, by having the battery in place, you cause a need for the alternator to work longer, not harder to recharge the battery. A capacitor can provide more power more quickly to an application when compared to a battery. Capacitors serve other purposes, but none of them apply to car audio in the specific circumstances we are discussing.

Polacek, you may be able to help me with another problem I'm having in designing a circuit. If could help, I would really appreciate a second opinion from someone who knows as much as I do or more to work the kinks out and get the specifics down. If you can help, email me and I'll send you info on what I'm doing.