New here, have some dumb questions...

Rack · 05-14-2006, 08:50 PM

I'm getting ready to purchase a '68 Charger to restore, (although it may not need a huge amount of restoration, but that's probably me just being naive)but I don't know a whole lot about cars/engines. In fact, on a scale from 1-10 I'd say my knowledge is about a 1.5. I can put gas in it and I have changed the oil on a vehicle before. OH! And I've changed an air filter or two.

So anyway, I know I've got a big task at hand so I've been doing some research (in fact, this thread is being started so I can do more research).

So I have a few questions to ask that you guys will find "Dumb" but I won't know the answers to the "Dumb" questions unless I ask them. So...

What does "Mopar" mean?

What are the differences between a regular Charger, a "500", and an R/T? Is it just the engine, or is there a difference in body design as well?

Is $7,500 - $8,000 a good/fair price for a '68 Charger R/T that has been recently primered, "all moulding included", missing rear half of center console/carpet/headliner, complete engine but needs electrical work, and the transmission was ok last time it was driven?

It also has original dual-point distributor and 4-barrel carb. It has a 440 375HP 1-4BBL engine.

Here's some pics of the car...

That's all I can think to ask right now. I'll add more "Dumb" questions (many more, you can bet) as I get to more stuff I need/want to know about.

Thanks!

Rack · 05-14-2006, 11:44 PM

One more...

What exactly is a "Six pack"? And I'm not talking about the abs I don't have or the beer I've drank to make them that way.

KManiac · 05-15-2006, 12:05 AM

Where I come from the only "Dumb" question is the one not asked.

So you what to know what "Mopar" means. Well, back in the 1930's and 1940's, the parts division of Chrysler sold genuine Chrysler parts under the brand name of "Motor Parts". This name evolved into "MOter PARts" and then into "MOPAR". Then people began to use this moniker as a generic term for anything produced by Chrysler Corporation.

Now for the models of Chargers. In the first two years, 1966 & 1967, Dodge offered the Charger as a single model series.

In 1968, the produced the basic Charger and the special Charger R/T (R/T stand for Road/Track). All engines and transmission were available on the base Charger (225, 318, 383, 426 Hemi & 440). The R/T came standard with 440 HP or optional 426 Hemi.

In 1969, they continued with the base Charger and Charger R/T. Then during mid-year, they introduced a model called the Charger 500. This was a limited production car, built solely to qualify the body for use in NASCAR. The unique features of this car were the streamline, NASCAR back window and the flush mounted grill with fixed, exposed headlights. The grill on this car resembled the one used on the 1968 Dodge Coronet. I believe the engine choices for the 500 were the same as the R/T. This year, Dodge introduced the luxury trim package called "Special Edition". This consisted of wood grain dashboard trim and leather seats. The "Special Edition" package became known as SE for short.

In 1970, they continued with the base Charger and Charger R/T. The Charger 500 name continued as a premium model of the base Charger line. The special NASCAR offering this year was the Charger Daytona. This car had the NASCAR back window, tall rear spoiler and beaked nose. They continued with the "Special Edition" trim package for this year.

In 1971, Dodge combined the Coronet and Charger names into one car line. All intermediate 4-doors and station wagons were called Coronet. All 2-door intermediates were called Charger. You could get the base level Charger, the preimium level Charger 500, the luxury model Charger SE, low-priced muscle Charger Super Bee and the premium muscle Charger R/T.

After 1971, the muscle cars disappeared as well as the 426 Hemi.

Regarding the value of the car your are considering, only you can decide. If this car is a genuine Charger R/T, the VIN will start with XS23*8*. The fifth letter denotes factory engine. The 440 HP engine code is L (or XS23L8*). If the fifth letter is J, then this was an original Hemi car. Engine codes other than J or L are smaller engines (225=B;318=F,383=G or H). The seventh letter denotes the assembly plant.

BTW, what is the full VIN of the car you want to buy. Pass it by us first so we can verify whether or not it is a genuine Charger R/T and not a base Charger with R/T trim tacked on.

KManiac · 05-15-2006, 12:21 AM

"Six Pack": This is the slang term used to describe the induction system which uses three, two-barrel carburetors (3 times 2-barrels equals 6 barrels or "Six Pack"). A "Six Pack" induction system was offered on both the 340 and 440 engines in 1969, 1970 and 1971.

Rack · 05-15-2006, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KManiac

Where I come from the only "Dumb" question is the one not asked.

So you what to know what "Mopar" means. Well, back in the 1930's and 1940's, the parts division of Chrysler sold genuine Chrysler parts under the brand name of "Motor Parts". This name evolved into "MOter PARts" and then into "MOPAR". Then people began to use this moniker as a generic term for anything produced by Chrysler Corporation.

Now for the models of Chargers. In the first two years, 1966 & 1967, Dodge offered the Charger as a single model series.

In 1968, the produced the basic Charger and the special Charger R/T (R/T stand for Road/Track). All engines and transmission were available on the base Charger (225, 318, 383, 426 Hemi & 440). The R/T came standard with 440 HP or optional 426 Hemi.

In 1969, they continued with the base Charger and Charger R/T. Then during mid-year, they introduced a model called the Charger 500. This was a limited production car, built solely to qualify the body for use in NASCAR. The unique features of this car were the streamline, NASCAR back window and the flush mounted grill with fixed, exposed headlights. The grill on this car resembled the one used on the 1968 Dodge Coronet. I believe the engine choices for the 500 were the same as the R/T. This year, Dodge introduced the luxury trim package called "Special Edition". This consisted of wood grain dashboard trim and leather seats. The "Special Edition" package became known as SE for short.

In 1970, they continued with the base Charger and Charger R/T. The Charger 500 name continued as a premium model of the base Charger line. The special NASCAR offering this year was the Charger Daytona. This car had the NASCAR back window, tall rear spoiler and beaked nose. They continued with the "Special Edition" trim package for this year.

In 1971, Dodge combined the Coronet and Charger names into one car line. All intermediate 4-doors and station wagons were called Coronet. All 2-door intermediates were called Charger. You could get the base level Charger, the preimium level Charger 500, the luxury model Charger SE, low-priced muscle Charger Super Bee and the premium muscle Charger R/T.

After 1971, the muscle cars disappeared as well as the 426 Hemi.

Regarding the value of the car your are considering, only you can decide. If this car is a genuine Charger R/T, the VIN will start with XS23*8*. The fifth letter denotes factory engine. The 440 HP engine code is L (or XS23L8*). If the fifth letter is J, then this was an original Hemi car. Engine codes other than J or L are smaller engines (225=B;318=F,383=G or H). The seventh letter denotes the assembly plant.

BTW, what is the full VIN of the car you want to buy. Pass it by us first so we can verify whether or not it is a genuine Charger R/T and not a base Charger with R/T trim tacked on.

Extremely good, useful information. Thank you!

The vin on the car is
XS29L8B152836.

Sorry about the size, I just did a copy/paste and it came out that way.

Thanks again for your reply. Like I said, I'm new to this, but my nephew (RIP) and I were always talking about restoring one of these old cars so I'm gonna do it in his memory. So any information I can get will be extremely useful. I've also already purchased a couple of books on restoring cars. Hopefully those will help too.

I'll be adding more questions as I come across more stuff I need/want to know.

Here's one more...

What's the difference (in performance and anything else) between the 440 and the 426 HEMI? I know the HEMI's cost about 5X more then my live and kidneys combined, but is that gargantuan cost really worth it? Or is it mainly just the "Name"?

Thanks again!

Rack · 05-15-2006, 02:36 AM

I was browsing some cars at ebay and came across this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...RK%3AMEWA%3AIT

It didn't have a vin number listed so I emailed him asking if he had it. He replies telling me that he does have the vin numbers, but asks "Why do you want it? It doesn't tell you what you need to know."

He didn't include the vin number in the reply.

Guess that tells me all I need to know about that car/seller.

KManiac · 05-15-2006, 10:46 AM

I checked out the ebay ad for the 1968 Charger. If the guy ain't willing to give out the VIN, then something is wrong! He even claims the car is "numbers matching". Well this means he either verified that the VIN matches on the dashboard, engine and transmission or he used this well worn expression to entice buyers.

Now 440 versus 426:

The 426 street hemi was offered between 1964 and 1971 as a way to qualify this engine for NASCAR competition. This engine was designed to provide maximum power output and performance between 4000 and 6000 RPM. This engine was designed for oval track racing applications. It used the same basic engine block as the 413/426/440 wedge engines, but used the large cylinder heads with hemispherical combustion chambers and dual rocker arm shafts. These engines were more expensive to build due to the increased number of overall parts. And they were heavier than a 440 Magnum in assembled form.

The 440 Magnum used the simpler cylinder head, which had the "wedge" shaped combustion chambers and single rocker arm shaft design. A 440 Magnum was designed for maximum power output and performance between 3000 and 5000 RPM. This engine performed well in acceleration contents and for highway cruising on public streets. Above 5000 RPM, the design of the wedge head induction system simply limited the amount of air that could pass through the engine.

Now, if you put two 1968 Chargers on the starting line of a straight-line race track and they were identical in every way except for one being 426 Hemi and the other being 440 Magnum and you raced them in an acceleration contest, here is what would happen - The 440 will take the holeshot and lead the way for most of the first quarter mile. By the quarter mile mark, the Hemi will be catching or overtaking the 440. If you extend the contest beyond the quarter mile mark, the Hemi will eventually overtake and pass the 440.

On an oval track, the 426 will always outperform the 440. The 426 will outrev the 440, obtaining a higher maximum speed and accelerating quicker than the 440 at speeds in excess of 80 mph.

The bottom line is basic supply and demand. The 426 Hemi is a rare and unique engine design. The limited numbers of original cars produced put them in high demand. However, you can only enjoy the benefits of this unique engine when you drive the car in excess of 80 mph, which is difficult to do on today's modern highway system. Needless to say, there have been many people out there who lusted severely after a Hemi equipped car, due to the mystique, but became seriously disappointed when they finally paid top dollar to get one and found it wasn't a blistering accelerator off the line.

KManiac · 05-15-2006, 10:54 AM

Here is another slang expression for you. As I said before, the 426 Hemi is a heavier engine in assembled form than the 440 Magnum. This lead to the slang expression "Elephant", which some people use to refer to a 426 Hemi. If you hear someone talk about an "elephant motor", now you know what they are talking about.

Rack · 05-15-2006, 03:42 PM

Thanks again, KManiac.

Yeah that guy emailed me again threatening to call a lawyer and get the police involved if I used the vin number in anyway yada yada yada. He said he wouldn't send me the vin until I replied saying I wouldn't use the vin number illegally (not word for word, but you get the point). I replied saying "ummmm... ok" but obviously my BS Detector was registering "Off the charts" ratings. That guy is something else. Feel sorry for whoever actually buys that car.

Oh and he hasn't emailed me that vin number yet.

About the 426 vs 440... that is exactly the type of info I was hoping for. A HEMI is definitely not for me.

Do you know a place where I can run a check on pre 1981 vehicles? I was trying to do a check on the vin from that other car but couldn't find a place that could do it (pre 1981).

Also, what exactly goes into rebuilding an engine? How much of the work can I do myself? I don't have experience with that kind of stuff, but it's not completely foreign to me. How much of the work would have to be done by an actual mechanic?

I'm wanting to do as much work on it with my own hands as possible. I do understand that a lot of the work, especially body work, will have to be done in a shop though.

Thanks again, KManiac.

KManiac · 05-16-2006, 12:46 AM

I don't think there is anyone out there collecting data on pre 1981 cars. Sites like CARFAX collect data from state motor vehicle departments, insurance companies and car rental companies, usually from mandatory smog checks and vehicle transfers. Automotive VINs' were not standardized until after 1981. Most people who use this type of service are paranoid individuals who are buying a car for personal transportation and want to avoid potential problems like "salvage titles", "former daily rentals", "lemon law returns" and "accident repairs". People like this don't want a car that is more than 25 years old.

I have never rebuilt an engine in my 30 years of car ownership. If I was to enbark on such a feat, and knowing what I do about cars, I would pull the engine myself and take the complete long block to a machine shop. There, the professionals would be able to measure the wear in the mechanical parts and recommend the amount of machine work needed to bring the engine back. Some parts can be reused, while others should be replaced. Typical rebuilds include the replacement of the pistons, camshaft, lifters, bearings and seals. The crankshaft and connecting rods are usually remachined and reused, as well as the heads and intake manifold. Always good to replace the oil pump.

Now, when it comes to engines, I am a believer in the expression, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" For example, the pictures of the 1968 Charger R/T you provided, show an engine with fresh paint all around and aftermarket air cleaner and valve covers. Should you buy it, I would not recommend to you to tow the car home and pull the engine immediately to rebuild it. Most likely, someone has done something to the engine somewhere along the line and I would hate to see you waste money to rebuild an engine that was already rebuilt within the last 5,000 miles. If you are not sure of an engine's history, I suggest driving it for a while and monitoring it's operation. Do a compression test. Then see how much oil the engine consumes in normal driving. Does it blow smoke out of the tailpipes or out of a removed PCV hole? Listen for noices such as rod or main bearing knocks or lifter ticks. You can go so far as to remove the valve covers, intake manifold and oil pan to do visual inspections of the engine internals while it is still in the car. The only cost to you is a little time and some new gaskets. If the internal parts look clean and fresh on visual inspections, most likely the engine was redone recently. If the internal are filled with oil sludge and look very dirty, rebuilding is on the horizon. Only if you can confirm severely worn parts would I even consider pulling the engine and rebuilding it.

When it comes to my personal cars, most of them have their original engines and have more than 100,000 miles on the clock. Of my nine Chryslers, I have one with an engine that should be rebuilt. I am third owner of this car and can document that it has 162,000 miles on the vehicle itself. It is a 1964 Chrysler. I am third owner and all owners have been documented over the life of the car. The second owner insisted that the engine had been rebuilt by the original owner and had the receipt. I saw the receipt, but did not study it at the time of purchase. Driving the car home (from Portland, Oregon to San Francisco Bay Area) I discovered that the car used one quart of oil in 150 miles. It doesn't leak any oil and I don't see blue smoke out the tailpipe, but the oil is going somewhere. I also discovered quite a bit of "blow by" when I removed the PCV. Now the car always ran well, but never seemed to have quite the same power as my other Chryslers with the same engine. And when it sat idling in my driveway, it would deposit soot marks on the concrete below the tail pipe openings. A year after buying the car, I drove it somewhere and it ran perfect, as usual to my destination. When I attempted to start the car for my return home, I found it very hard to start and it would not idle. I had to start the car and keep the revs up at 2000 RPM to keep it running for the drive home. Once I got home, I discovered that the ignition timing had suddenly changed. The engine that was recently timed to 10 degrees BTDC was now showing 8 degrees ATDC. No wonder it wouldn't run. The 18 degree shift in ignition timing was the telltale indication that I skipped a tooth on my timing chain.

When I removed the timing cover, I was surprised to discover the factory installed timing chain and sprocket set. It was identical to the ones I had removed from my other 1964 Chryslers, that I new were original at the time. The chain was so worn, that not only did it skip one tooth on me, there was at least one tooth of slop in the chain. Again, a telltale sign that this was, in fact, the factory installed chain & sprockets. That seemed strange to me for a car that supposedly had the engine rebuilt during it's lifetime. When I went back and studied the receipt for the so called engine rebuild, I discovered the important information that I overlooked. The receipt showed not a rebuild, but a "ring, bearing & valve" job. The original pistons, cam, crank and timing chain set were never replaced or reconditioned. I went ahead and replaced the timing chain set with an aftermarket, indexable, double row set set. Using this set, I indexed the cam 4 degrees advance of the original setting. Once replaced the engine, even as worn as it was, performed just a good as my other Chryslers. And now there is no more soot deposited on the ground from the tailpipes. I may rebuild the engine someday, but for now, it runs fine as long as I top off the oil every 150 miles.

MagicRat · 05-16-2006, 12:58 AM

^^Good post.

I would agree, do not rebuild an engine unless it shows obvious signs or extreme wear and noise. However, installing a timing chain is good preventive maitenance if you think the engine has lots of miles.

It looks as if that car needs lots of paint and body work. IMO its easly to become discouraged and/or broke by taking on more work than is manageable. Consider focusing on the most pressing needs first.

If the engine is good, leave it alone and drive and enjoy the car as you work on other areas.

It looks like a great project.

Rack · 05-16-2006, 02:05 AM

Excellent posts. You guys might of just saved me a few thousand dollars.

I'll just replace the "little" things and go from there. Now that I think about it, the engine should be the last thing I work on anyway.

What "little things", other than installing a timing chain, would you guys recommend I do to the engine?

Also, if the doors/fenders on that car are heavily bondo'd should I just go ahead and replace them?

KManiac · 05-16-2006, 02:19 PM

Before you change your timing chain set, I recommend the following "quick & dirty" test to measure the amount of timing chain stretch in the current chain:

With a breaker bar and socket on the crankshaft center bolt, rotate the crank in the direction of rotation at least 30 degrees until the timing mark lines up to TDC.

Pop the cap off of the distributor.

Slow rotate the crank slowly in the opposite direction until you see the distributor rotor start to move. Then check the position of the timing mark If the timing mark moves more than 10 degrees during this test, I would consider replacing the timing chain and sprocket set.

NOTE: 18 degrees of free movement of the crank in this test equals one full tooth of slop for a standard 40 tooth/20 tooth timing set. At this point, the chain is ready to skip a tooth. I recommend using a double row timing set with indexible sprockets. The double row wears better and lasts longer than the OEM single row set. The indexible sprockets give you the ability to either advance or retard the cam timing by 4 degrees. Advanced cam timing gives better low end performance. Retarded cam timing gives better top end performance. Also, stay away from timings gears with plastic teeth. Soak the new chain in motor oil at least overnight before installation.

Rack · 05-16-2006, 03:40 PM

Thanks, KManiac.

Can't wait to get started on this project. If everything goes well I'll have the car here in about a week.

I'm all set to start buying things to help get started. Just waiting till I finally actually purchase the vehicle.

I just bought a new truck last september and I wasn't nearly as excited about that that I am about this 38 year old car. lol

Rack · 05-18-2006, 03:29 AM

Ok I won the auction for that charger. Paid a bit more then I had hoped due to a couple of amateurs trying to outbid eachother in the last hour of the auction.

Now I just have to pay for it and have it shipped to me. Then I get to get started!

ANother question...

What is a "B body"? Does that have an effect on parts I buy for the car? For example, if I'm looking to buy door handles for the Charger R/T does it make a difference if the handles also say they fit a b-body?

Here's a link to some door handles I'm looking at...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...RK%3AMEWA%3AIT

Is there a difference between an R/T and a B-body? If there is a difference, what exactly is different about them?

Also, where can I get this hood scoop?

Thanks!

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