I can understand how a dirty filter could affect full throttle acceleration. But, when you're cruising down the road at 65mph, what difference does it make? The O2 sensors should correct for an air filter that's a little dirty, shouldn't it? Dirty or clean, lo-tech or hi-dollar, at 65mph, won't the engine management system make the fuel to air ratio the same?

The O2 sensor tells how much..but it doesn't change the fact that more air means more effeciency. Besides, if a dirty filter cuts it down, then a high flow will also improve a stock setup. You have to remember that the factory only sets these vehicles up to about 80% effeciency so that Grandma doesn't kill herself on the freeway!!!

Go find your kid, wife, or friend and put a WWE Wrestling Choke hold on them and ask them if they can work up to the normal standard you are used to seeing???? Sure they have the food and previous oxygen in their system but they definitly will not be functioning properly when you deprive them of air slowely.....

I can understand how a dirty filter could affect full throttle acceleration. But, when you're cruising down the road at 65mph, what difference does it make? The O2 sensors should correct for an air filter that's a little dirty, shouldn't it? Dirty or clean, lo-tech or hi-dollar, at 65mph, won't the engine management system make the fuel to air ratio the same?

Go to an Advance Auto Parts. I think all Advance stores now have a demonstration display of a K&N filter vs. a regular filter. That will probably make a believer out of you once you see it. A dirt K&N flows better than a clean regular filter.

I don't doubt that a hi-flow filter passes more air. Remember, I'm not talking about running at full throttle.

Y'all are saying that if I pop in a fancy air filter, I'll be able to run down the road at 65 mph with more air flow, and the engine management system will allow me to run lean for more than a few minutes?

I can see a problem with a dirty filter in an old carberated engine with no computer.....but not in our engines....until the filter really gets clogged up.

Well then let me put it his way. You'll know when you're traveling down the highway using less throttle with your foot. More air...less gas. Trust me, I'm not a mechanic!!!

Go find your kid, wife, or friend and put a WWE Wrestling Choke hold on them and ask them if they can work up to the normal standard you are used to seeing???? Sure they have the food and previous oxygen in their system but they definitly will not be functioning properly when you deprive them of air slowely.....

Is everything ok Jethro???? :lol: J/K, I like your analogy!

I can see a problem with a dirty filter in an old carberated engine with no computer.....but not in our engines....until the filter really gets clogged up.

Nah, once my dad's cars got some age on them, he usually just did away with the air cleaner altogether. Nothing flows more air than nothing. They always ran fine

Is everything ok Jethro???? :lol: J/K, I like your analogy!


You like??? Every thing is cool, I just like to find something that a person can relate to.... :naughty: :naughty: :naughty:

Soon than later suffication is eminant!!!

Go find your kid, wife, or friend and put a WWE Wrestling Choke hold on them

To me, it will always be WWF

....my guess is that it won't. Does it detect a lean condition using the oxygen sensors? If it corrects a lean condition, how does it do it?

....my guess is that it won't. Does it detect a lean condition using the oxygen sensors? If it corrects a lean condition, how does it do it?
The PCM uses the O2 sensors to read the O2 content of the exhaust stream. Low O2 readings indicate a large amount of O2 in the exhaust stream (indicating a lean condition).
High O2 readings indicate a rich exhaust.
The PCM tries to compensate for the O2 readings by adjusting the Pulse Width of the Injectors (On time) to either add or remove fuel. This is called Fuel trim.
Positive fuel trim is the PCM adding fuel to compensate for a lean condition while Negative fuel trim is the PCM removing fuel to compensate for a rich condition.
A PCM could fail and not compensate for either a rich or lean condition.

As I look through more old threads about high capacity air filters, I find that some folks FEEL like they're getting better gas mileage with a fancy air intake, but those that actually check it find that they don't see an mpg increase....just some full throttle improvement.

I've decided to stop changing my oil and filter completely. After all, I've never done a blood transfusion on my kids, and I haven't had their livers transplanted.

As I look through more old threads about high capacity air filters, I find that some folks FEEL like they're getting better gas mileage with a fancy air intake, but those that actually check it find that they don't see an mpg increase....just some full throttle improvement.

I've decided to stop changing my oil and filter completely. After all, I've never done a blood transfusion on my kids, and I haven't had their livers transplanted.

No, but I am sure they blow their noses and take a dump on a regular basis

So, when I replace the air filter, I may only see a temporary change in mid-throttle performance and mpg...if any. The engine will get more air flow at the same throttle position, sense the lean condition, and the ECM will correct for it. Is that right?

I merged both of joema's topics togather here.
Even though the PCM tries to maintain a 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio at all times, the high efficency filter may increase MPG based on VOLUME.
If you can create the same horse power using less air, you will reduce the need for fuel and still maintain the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio and this is the theory of high efficency air filters.

Now we're talking! So if the air to fuel ratio is right, and the O2 sensors aren't reading exactly where they want to be, which one wins? My guess is that the O2 sensors would ignore the ratio, as long as the ratio is within a certain range. Could be the other way....that the ratio is held constant as long as the O2 is within tolerances.

Are you saying that a high flow filter acts kinda like a super charger...in a way? More molecules of air and fuel in the same combustion chamber....Could be.

My best guess is this....and I'm not a mechanic, but I've worked with automatic controls. As the air flows into the engine, it has to flow through the filter, the throttle plate, all of the intake manifolds, and through the intake valves. All of these create a pressure drop. More pressure drop yields less air flow. The immediate effect of a new air filter would be less pressure drop, and therefore more air flow, at, let's say, a throttle position of 65% open. Less pressure drop in the total system means more air flow. IF the O2 sensors are in charge, they would see a lean condition, and increase the fuel. So, you would go faster. To stay at 60mph, you lift your foot off the gas a little. The throttle closes to, say, 61% open, the fuel gets cut back proportionally by the ECM, and you're back at 60 mph. If this was true, the only effect of a new filter would be that your throttle plate has to run a little more closed at a given speed.....the pressure loss in the filter will be moved to the throttle plate

I got sucked into putting a K&N high flow into my truck. Don't notice any extra power and the gas mileage is still the same. Didn't make any difference, just lightened up my wallet.

I got sucked into putting a K&N high flow into my truck. Don't notice any extra power and the gas mileage is still the same. Didn't make any difference, just lightened up my wallet.

Did you put in one of those FIPK kits? Or just replaced the filter with K&N?

I was looking at the plumbing from my factory air filter box to the engine. The neck that feeds the filtered air is very flat and looks restrictive. At one point it even feels closed! I can see how a smooth neck from the air filter that is round throughout would allow better air to the engine.

I am thinking seriously about an FIPK, then a Nelson Tune. Thats it, no headers or exhaust etc.

I got sucked into putting a K&N high flow into my truck. Don't notice any extra power and the gas mileage is still the same. Didn't make any difference, just lightened up my wallet.

A mistake some people do when they hook up the FIPK is they don't disconnect the battery for at least 15 minutes. Doing this will let the computer completely readjust to the new intake. Also the benefit of FIPK will be felt better if you have a cat-back duall exhaust (though not required). I can say it helped the erformance of my truck.

:sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse

one mistake I made when installing mine is that I forgot to plug my MAF back up when i got thru

A mistake some people do when they hook up the FIPK is they don't disconnect the battery for at least 15 minutes. Doing this will let the computer completely readjust to the new intake. Also the benefit of FIPK will be felt better if you have a cat-back duall exhaust (though not required). I can say it helped the erformance of my truck.

:sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse :sunglasse


Really? I installed my FIPK last week and I didn't do this. I have noticed a huge difference in performance but I'm still on my first tank of gas so I can't comment on mileage yet. Should I go ahead and diconnect now? What exactly does this do for the PCM?

one mistake I made when installing mine is that I forgot to plug my MAF back up when i got thru

I did this too when I installed mine. Mine idled somewhere around 300 rpm until I plugged it back in. It sounded mean as hell though idling that low..like I had a cam or something.

Yup, K&N FIPK. Part # was 63-3050 and installed as per instructions.
Cost was $329.00. If they had a money back guarantee, I'd send it back.
I guess when they have claims of up to 11HP increase and a mileage increase of "up to", that also includes the number 0.

I don't think the 63-3050 was an FIPK kit. I think it was just a high flow filter setup. I was looking at the same one but they had some different ones on Summit and K&N that were actually labeled FIPK kits. Maybe I'm just a dummy and can't read but that's what I got from it.

EDIT** Yeah I just looked on K&N's website. The Aircharger (63-3050)and 77 Series kits are not the 57 Series FIPK kits. That's a whole 'nuther setup I guess. Funny thing is that K&N doesn't have a FIPK kit listed for a 2005 5.3L Silverado. WTH is up with that?

Yup, K&N FIPK. Part # was 63-3050 and installed as per instructions.
Cost was $329.00. If they had a money back guarantee, I'd send it back.
I guess when they have claims of up to 11HP increase and a mileage increase of "up to", that also includes the number 0.

YOW! My FIPK (57-3021-1) for my '02 5.3 was $196 delivered.

YOW! My FIPK (57-3021-1) for my '02 5.3 was $196 delivered.

yea, I got mine off e-bay for about that.

A mistake some people do when they hook up the FIPK is they don't disconnect the battery for at least 15 minutes. Doing this will let the computer completely readjust to the new intake.

There is no need to do this, the PCM will make adjustments for most operating conditions.

If you put in a K&N air filter in place of the stock one you won't see much of a difference. If you install a K&N FIPK and get rid of the stock induction system then you will see, hear and feel an improvement. If you get rid of the huge muffer for a small turbo muffler then your engine can really breath and sound better. Both will improve gas mileage.

Well whats everyone else getting for mpg with an FIPK installed?

Well whats everyone else getting for mpg with an FIPK installed?

Yes!!!! We're back to square one. The questions I had were:

What was the before AND after gas mileage with a fancy air intake (and NO other changes)?

AND

Will the engine management system allow our engines to run lean? (Which would be the initial effect of more air flow.)

I just checked mine last night...and I got 15.96, but thast with the FIPK, Tune, 285's, and a heavy foot.

I changed a few things right around the same time as the FIPK, so that's a no go. There was no lean condition, tho

How do you correct a lean conditon? I know Allen can, but I don't want to have to wait for another PCM and all that..my valves still rattle like mad.

How do you correct a lean conditon? I know Allen can, but I don't want to have to wait for another PCM and all that..my valves still rattle like mad.

I'm having the same problem... Allen is sending another PCM with some more timing removed. He blames our gas in GA, tho it could be carbon build up

Let me know if it clears it up. I'm tired of sounding like a diesel

How do you correct a lean conditon? I know Allen can, but I don't want to have to wait for another PCM and all that..my valves still rattle like mad.


I'm thinking the engine management system, as is, from the factory, controls the lean/rich at one point, by using the O2 sensors. That's why I'm guessing that, even though a fancy air intake COULD pass more air, the engine Control won't allow it....when just cruising down the road at something less than full throttle.

Sometimes you just have to experiment for yourself. Some over the counter things will work, sometimes you need to take a quess and make changes yourself. If all vehicles came from the factory running perfect, we would never get to modify them.

Yeah, but its kind of hard to get mine to run perfectly without having access to HPtuners or LS1Edit

I only added the FIPK and a cat-back dual exhaust from Flowmaster and went from just over 16 mpg to 18.5 mpg at 80mph on the highway (1999 Silverado, 5.3, 4x4, x-cab). Besides the fact the the truck sounds better and has better throttle response, after a few trips to my dad's house (close to 400 miles away), the parts will pay for themselves. After all, I had to replace the exhaust anyway, so I really only factor in the FIPK.

On a lighter note, because the truck sounded better, I'm pretty sure I got considerably worse city mileage the fist summer I had the exhaust on the truck. Just couldn't keep my foot out of it. :)

Hope that helps anyone.

Mike

I came accross this article although not chevy specific still applies and pretty well sums it up

http://www.audiworld.com/tech/eng18.shtml

Sorry, but I don't buy this. I do know I had a perfromance improvement after my FPIK. I don't know how he did this "testing" but there's got to be something it that isn't jiving right. What I will do is shoot this to K&N and askwhat they think. Hopefully I'll get a response soon.

I've been thinking of putting one of those on my truck but I'm really skepitical and doing a bit of research especially considering the cost of those things. Too bad they don't have an unconditional money back guarantee, then it would be a no brainer. One thing that doesn't make sense is that the filter sits out in the open in the hot engine compartment. How do you get cold air to the engine when it is sucking hot air, and that deflector they use does nothing to isolate the filter from the hot air. All you have to do is just look at it and you can see that. At least the stock airbox intakes cooler fresh air from outside the vehicle.

Now this cold air intake unit from volant looks like it makes more sense...note the cold air box with the scoop.

http://www.volantperformance.com/cai.asp

Some really like the Volant. I think the only gain with this is it's more protectctive in four wheeling muddy condiditons. A box is a box is a box and IMHO I believe it to be more restrictive, but I've never seen one up close so I can't say with any assurity. As for the "hot" air from the engine, the kit comes with a shield to guard from the hot engine heat, not to mention that air will be pushing into the filter area from the front and side as the vehicle is moving.
Also, if that dude is going to do a test, he might try doing the same test with no filter and also, did he test with an FIPK system... NO, he only makes a subjective personal opinion on the cone system and did so without any data, foundation and almost from a childish immature way. This tells me his test is skewed and most likely done in a fashion to prove what he wanted to prove. I do believe the Volant to be better than stock, and most probably competitive with the FIPK, but still somewhat restrictive being pulled through a box. Also you can score an FIPK for about $200, delivered if you're patient and look hard and often enough.
One other thing to think about, he did it with an Audi... apples and oranges!!! Do it with a Silverado, or any full size truck for all that matters and then we'll talk.

:disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin :disappoin

I'm thinking the engine management system, as is, from the factory, controls the lean/rich at one point, by using the O2 sensors. That's why I'm guessing that, even though a fancy air intake COULD pass more air, the engine Control won't allow it....when just cruising down the road at something less than full throttle.

I have already explained to you how the engine management system operates on this vehicle.
As soon as the PCM sees a lean exhaust it compensates for it, so if a high flow air filter does allow more air, the fuel mixture will still be 14.7 to 1.

Also if you really want to measure something his meathod of study is unrepeatable. A G-Tech is not a calibrated accurate to the 1000ths machine like you would need for a repeatable test.

Another thought is Volant makes the Ram Air scoop. When gaining speed at a track or above 50 the ram air effect does help provide the engine more air. That does help you get more air into your engine than just letting the engine pull air in. So what are you looking for, more air in a fast condtion or just the ability to have more air?

Just my :2cents:

Read this post and please be objective, ultimately you are the only person responsible for your truck, its performance and longevity, don´t let anybody convince you of something you don´t want. Having said that, I found this link from a guy that has what I believe a good background in engineering and experience with motor engines of all types, he did this test and pictures say a thousand words. Bottom line, it´s your truck and if you want to run it without a filter well be my guest (just don´t offer it to me as a used vehicle when you don´t want it anymore ) :grinno: but the fact is, a stock air filter will protect your engine more than a high performance one. A good engineer will always take into account economics, believe it or not, he´ll have the mentality of doing things in an optimal way, not in an extreme way, get the most bang for the buck without being wasteful, a stock filter is a balance between performance and filtration capability and personally I am going to autozone right now and buy a stock paper replacement filter and take off the K&N tampax I put on my poor little dirt road driven truck, I know I took some years off of that engine, I just hope she can someday forgive me for it. :banghead:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

And like GMMerlin said, and I paraphrase "you can´t put three pounds of feces in a one pound bucket" even if you offer more aire, the engine will only use what it needs...

ur worrying to much, just put one on and try it, u'll see

And like GMMerlin said, and I paraphrase "you can´t put three pounds of feces in a one pound bucket" even if you offer more aire, the engine will only use what it needs...


I bet you could get a few more pounds in that bucket by Forced Induction which I admit few of us have..... :evillol: :evillol: :evillol: :evillol: :evillol:

Well sure you could! but I have nothing against forced induction, you do get more power, but would you rather do it with clean air or with a burst from a sandblaster?

And like GMMerlin said, and I paraphrase "you can´t put three pounds of feces in a one pound bucket" ...

Now there is an interpretation I wasn't expecting :uhoh:

Open for local interpretation only....... :icon16: :rofl: :lol2: :rofl: :naughty:

Read this post and please be objective, ultimately you are the only person responsible for your truck, its performance and longevity, don´t let anybody convince you of something you don´t want. Having said that, I found this link from a guy that has what I believe a good background in engineering and experience with motor engines of all types, he did this test and pictures say a thousand words. Bottom line, it´s your truck and if you want to run it without a filter well be my guest (just don´t offer it to me as a used vehicle when you don´t want it anymore ) :grinno: but the fact is, a stock air filter will protect your engine more than a high performance one. A good engineer will always take into account economics, believe it or not, he´ll have the mentality of doing things in an optimal way, not in an extreme way, get the most bang for the buck without being wasteful, a stock filter is a balance between performance and filtration capability and personally I am going to autozone right now and buy a stock paper replacement filter and take off the K&N tampax I put on my poor little dirt road driven truck, I know I took some years off of that engine, I just hope she can someday forgive me for it. :banghead:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

And like GMMerlin said, and I paraphrase "you can´t put three pounds of feces in a one pound bucket" even if you offer more aire, the engine will only use what it needs...


Well, then send me your K&N

Sure, 40 bucks will get you a slightly used K&N filter plus the cleaning kit, still brand new...

Can ayone verify if this is true?

Info - Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or
Service
Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an
Aftermarket
Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter #04-07-30-013 - (03/05/2004)

Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service
Engine
Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket
Reusable,
Excessively Oiled Air Filter 2004 and Prior Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2003-2004 HUMMER H2

First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket oiled air
filter
DO NOT repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a
reusable aftermarket oiled air filter.

The installation of an aftermarket reusable, oiled air filter may
result in:
a.. Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On
b.. Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or
band(s)
c.. Engine drivability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop,
limited engine RPM range

The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred
onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the
sensor. As
a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and
any or all of the concerns listed above may occur.

When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check
for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air
filter.
The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a OEM
air
box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern.

Transmission or engine drivability concerns that are the result of
the installation of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air
filter
are not considered to be warrantable repair items.

The British are coming...the British are coming!!!!

Can ayone verify if this is true?

Info - Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or
Service
Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an
Aftermarket
Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter #04-07-30-013 - (03/05/2004)

Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service
Engine
Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket
Reusable,
Excessively Oiled Air Filter 2004 and Prior Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2003-2004 HUMMER H2

First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket oiled air
filter
DO NOT repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a
reusable aftermarket oiled air filter.

The installation of an aftermarket reusable, oiled air filter may
result in:
a.. Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On
b.. Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or
band(s)
c.. Engine drivability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop,
limited engine RPM range

The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred
onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the
sensor. As
a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and
any or all of the concerns listed above may occur.

When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check
for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air
filter.
The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a OEM
air
box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern.

Transmission or engine drivability concerns that are the result of
the installation of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air
filter
are not considered to be warrantable repair items.

Totally TRUE!

well, how does an air filter (excessively oiled or otherwise) cause the trany to slip? I mean, to me, it seems like I could take a dump in my air box and have no effect on the tranny.

I have already explained to you how the engine management system operates on this vehicle.
As soon as the PCM sees a lean exhaust it compensates for it, so if a high flow air filter does allow more air, the fuel mixture will still be 14.7 to 1.


I'm not so sure I agreed with your original explanation. Some of the engineers I've spoken with say that the O2 sensors are in charge. If the O2 is not at its target, the fuel/air mixture will be adjusted (within limits) to make the O2 right. This is how it would compensate for different elevations, for example. Also, you said the ratio was based on VOLUME. The 'M' in MAFS stands for mass. Sorry.....you could still be right.

Do we agree that the high $$ intake, with no other mods, shouldn't and won't increase mpg, but may improve full throttle performance?