ok, here in canada the pontiac pursuit just came out so gmcanada is having a deal for 13000 canadian you get a pontiac sunfire with fog lamps auto and air and all that (no abs dont think) or a cavalier with same (minus fog lamps)

they also have a bunch of 2004 grand ams with 20 000 km on them fully loaded with abs and such for between 16900 and 17900...used car i dont pay the 1g in freight, hrmmm im thinkin the grand am even though it has auto (i dont like auto but its handy)....

id get the sunfire with a stick for 12g msrp but i dont think they have that deal on (sucks)

i heard the 3.4L v6 has head gasket troubles and such on all year models, is this true?

im sure the grand am with v6 can smoke the sunfire however

for the amount of money you are looking to dump into the grandam, you can buy a new scion tC, which IMO is the better buy. And with the 12k youd be dumping into the sunfire, you can buy a damn nice 00 civic in almost perfect condition, or a different economy car in great condition. stay away from pontiac.

i dunno my gf has a 2001 sunfire and it hasnt had a single problem, the sunfires are built pretty good...

i have never seen a single scion in my city of 30 000, our toyota doesnt even carry them...and the price tag on the scion page for canada is around 22 grand before freight and tax...ow

I would rather have a new sunfire than a used civic, you also didn't seem to read that these prices are in CANADIAN, you certainly can't get a scion TC for $16000 Canadian.

I would go with the new sunfire, thats a really good deal, I was tempted to get one myself when they started unloading them here.

i emailed the dealership in town about gettin a manual but i heard no word so if i dont get an email back today ill just phone when i get home and ill probably get a hemm and a haww and some ummms and "it only applies to current things on the lot" well at least i tried lol!!

sunfires with automatics really suck except at low speeds and high speeds, climbing hills are just murder on the things with autos!

i hear from a lot of people, and even a dealer, that a lot of people have brake troubles with the grand am. hope this helps.