I've never driven a manual transmission in my life, then again i'm only 23 and owned only 3 cars. My next car, will most likely be a 96 Z28, 5.7 of coarse, but i was concerned of one thing-the transmission.

Today, i went to check out this hot red one, it was a beauty-then i saw the auto trans, and i was immediatly discouraged. I'm in no way gonna buy one now-maybe mid 05. At first, i was going to finance either a 05 srt4 or a evo-but i love V8's. Nothing like that raw torque. Will an AT in a camaro slow it up really that much?

I remember 3 months ago, me and a friend went corvette *window* shopping, and we where talking to this really cool sales guy while we where checking a mint 96 grand sport vette-the blue ones, yum. Anyway, he said that the AT's where faster than manuals-something with the way they're calibrated (i think thats the term he said), is that true.. If so, how would a 96 camaro compare in MT vs. AT comparison..?

AT's are so much easier (i would imagine) to drive rather than MT's.

You can shift manually faster on some cars with a LOT of practice.

Ford and GM have/had a vacuum modulator in the shifting process. This slows them down. You can have a "Shift Kit" installed and it will shift faster than most people can shift a manual.

It must be said that it is a lot easier to do a clutch job than rebuild a auto.

Either way you can have a ton of fun. Good Luck.

well if you want to do any racing besides jsut dragging then you probably want a manual that way you can downshift around corners and such. teh auto tranny has more drivetrain losses mostly in the torque converter but for drag racing they are pretty good cause you can preload the torque converter at the line and then jsut let off the brakes and go.

if you enjoy driving then i think you will love driving the manual. in my opinion it is just so much more fun to drive with the manual, especially with rwd.

sometimes car makers do put a slightly more powerful motor in the manual but thats all tuning and calibration.

Yeah, that is true. I am older so I was just thinking about drag racing. For a nice mountain side country drive you cannot beat a manual.

They seem like alot of fun.. I've been in my friends 5.0 foxbody stang last year, and man did your neck snap with the manual. And, believe it or not, i was surprised of the authoritive feel of another friends nissan spec V with the MT. Lol, he burnt up his clutch after one month of financing. I feel myself leaning towards a manual.

You can shift manually faster on some cars with a LOT of practice.

Ford and GM have/had a vacuum modulator in the shifting process. This slows them down. You can have a "Shift Kit" installed and it will shift faster than most people can shift a manual.

It must be said that it is a lot easier to do a clutch job than rebuild a auto.

Either way you can have a ton of fun. Good Luck.

There is so much misinformation here its hard to know where to start
Electronicly controlled transmissions do not use a vacuum modulator, which accounts for almost every gm transmissions since the early 90's. Even before that there are many gm transmissions that did not use a vacuum modulators such as the 700r4 and 200r4 to name a couple.
-shift kits do not replace vacuum modulators they simply decrease the clutch over lap,main line pressure and apply speed (as well as some shift valve changes).

There is so much misinformation here its hard to know where to start
Electronicly controlled transmissions do not use a vacuum modulator, which accounts for almost every gm transmissions since the early 90's. Even before that there are many gm transmissions that did not use a vacuum modulators such as the 700r4 and 200r4 to name a couple.
-shift kits do not replace vacuum modulators they simply decrease the clutch over lap,main line pressure and apply speed (as well as some shift valve changes).

1.Many of the new ones do still have modulator. My new Buick Century has one-it went bad $119 at GM for a replacement.

2. The most common RWD tranny for GM is the TH350 with a modulator.

3. I did not say the shift kit replaces the modulator. Sorry I was not clear.

I don't know where all this information is coming from but almost all F1 Cart cars as well as Pro drag cars and desert racing use automatics. If I'm not mistaken all the cars in the Pikes Peak hill climb used automatics. Next time there's a cart race on TV watch it and listen to the cars. Their's no driver on earth that can shift as fast as a automatic. With the new trick SAW shifting you just push a button to up or down shift and it all happens within 1/100 of a second.
I have 2 cars, one for racing and the other for street, both have automatics. My street car has the SAW and I can shift to any gear I want manually or switch to the automatic mode. In the manual mode to pass depending on the speed I just punch the button to down shift and pass, or in the mountians do the same, just keep the engine in its power band and haul ass. As for power loss with a automatic that's not true, but with a standard it's there every time you touch the clutch. If you going to do everyday driving then a standard is great, but if you plan on doing any type of racing automatic is the only way to go. Much faster.

there is a big difference between an auto that is in a road car and one in a race car. namely (most) race cars dont have torque converters, which is the major drawback (imo) to an auto. now im not sure about this part but im going to type it anyhow. i was under the imppression that in F1 and cart and world rally and some others that they use sequential manual trannys and in cart they can shift without lifting off the gas or pushing in the clutch they jsut push teh shift lever and the engine cuts ignition for a fraction of a second, i believe it is a computer controlled system that shifts but there is no torque converter. i think it is similar to the system in some of the 2003 and up toyota mr-2 spyders. i cant find a link right now but its a 6 speed with a computer controlled clutch and no torque converter. it will not shift untill you tell it to,it will jsut bounce off the rev limiter.

or i might not know what im talking about at all

there is a big difference between an auto that is in a road car and one in a race car. namely (most) race cars dont have torque converters, which is the major drawback (imo) to an auto. now im not sure about this part but im going to type it anyhow. i was under the imppression that in F1 and cart and world rally and some others that they use sequential manual trannys and in cart they can shift without lifting off the gas or pushing in the clutch they jsut push teh shift lever and the engine cuts ignition for a fraction of a second, i believe it is a computer controlled system that shifts but there is no torque converter. i think it is similar to the system in some of the 2003 and up toyota mr-2 spyders. i cant find a link right now but its a 6 speed with a computer controlled clutch and no torque converter. it will not shift untill you tell it to,it will jsut bounce off the rev limiter.

or i might not know what im talking about at all

Your kinda right Mr.Reed, It's a electric torque convertor rather than a hydralic one used in the more common types. Both my cars have it and it is a real automatic transmission. The electric torque convertor has unlimited stages of lockup, from 0 to totally locked.
I think it could be best described as a multidisk setup similar to that used in AA/Fuel and funny's but electrical controled. The ones I have can be controled by the computer to lock up anytime I want, kinda like what ever stall I so desire. For normal driving my street car I set it for total lockup at 1,500RPM but for draging set at 5,500. They don't call it a clutch, but a varible speed torque convertor. Both cars use buttons to shift (SAW) Shift At Will. I have a switch in both cars that switches between automatic or manuel. In automatic mode shift points can be setup by computer, in manuel it well stay in that gear till I hit the up or down shift button. If I was to place a name on it I'd call it a electric clutch, but the problem is it drives the front pump for the transmission which is a automatic.

I think its just preference. Certain types lend themselves to better performance in certain situations. I have a BMW E30 that I would probably set fire to if it had an automatic. For me, there is no such thing as an automatic 325i. Blasphemy :)

I have two classics; a 66 Pontiac Bonneville and a 73 Impala Wagon, and they will both retain their automatics. They are luxo road cruisers. They each have 500 hp, but they're cruisers :)

I have a 96 Impala SS that is soon to get a T56 manual conversion.

If you're going to drag race with a lightly modified car, its pretty effective to use an auto tranny. They hold torque better and offer more consistent performance. If you're going to autocross, its more typical to see manuals. They hold a certain RPM and the clutch applies 1:1 torque to the tranny. If you had an automatic it might start shifting on its own at the wrong times and just otherwise cause headaches.

So, for the street, its purely preference... vacuum modulator or not. I almost always prefer a manual in most applications. The only time I don't is with luxo cruisers.

Solaris, In your situation (having owned a few RWD auto tranny GMs from that era) what I recommend is to steer clear of that automatic. They aren't terrible... well, yes they are in fact terrible. The 4L60E is not a long-lifer. Mine in the 96 SS lasted about 46,000 miles. Some have reported as few as 30,000 miles before death and some have had no problems for 100k or more. If that Camaro was driven like Grandma's Lincoln, I'm sure its fine, but I doubt any camaro is driven that way. They have problems with heat which cooks the already poor clutches. The valves and solenoids get sticky and cause 1-2 shift flares and sometimes 2-3 shift flares. Overall its a good design that was just very poorly engineered and tuned. Its all fixable with aftermarket parts, but unless you get in there and change those valves, solenoids, clutches, and other parts, its never going to be a good performance tranny.

The other issue you might find is that the computer controlled 4L60E has the oddest shift patterns. It takes monumental right foot input to get it to shift down, and even after you floor it, it takes way too long to down shift. Often times you'll notice that if you're accelerating moderately, then stab the throttle at about 25, it UPshifts to third. Lord knows why, but for an enthusiast like myself, its frustrating. You can reprogram the computer to change shift points and shift firmness, but that just moves the problems to another RPM.

Often times you'll notice that if you're accelerating moderately, then stab the throttle at about 25, it UPshifts to third. Lord knows why, but for an enthusiast like myself, its frustrating. You can reprogram the computer to change shift points and shift firmness, but that just moves the problems to another RPM.

this is just a shot in the dark because of little I know about cars but if you moved the shift point likle right before redline wouldn't it cause less of a chance to have it shift into third?

this is just a shot in the dark because of little I know about cars but if you moved the shift point likle right before redline wouldn't it cause less of a chance to have it shift into third?

In theory yes, but in practice no. In my post I mentioned that if you stab the throttle at 25 it sometimes upshifts. Moving the shift points up would make it do the same thing, but at 30 mph instead.

Chaning the shift points on the computer doesn't do much for daily driving. Its at wide open throttle that those points really take effect, so at part throttle you won't be able to change much about the tranny. On my 96 SS I have it set to fully firm shifts and raised the shift points about 300 rpms. If I weren't the principle driver of the car I would probably not be able to tell much difference.

Just to clarify, F1 cars use semiautomatic sequential gearboxes that have little to do with the automatic gearboxes that you can operate manually, it's a very different animal.

1.Many of the new ones do still have modulator. My new Buick Century has one-it went bad $119 at GM for a replacement.

2. The most common RWD tranny for GM is the TH350 with a modulator.

3. I did not say the shift kit replaces the modulator. Sorry I was not clear.


1. I'm guessing (sorry I'm on reply page and didn't check if its listed in your sig) that for your buick to be RWD its a MID 70's. (I believe 80's/90's Century's to be FWD)

2. The TH350 is not the most common auto tranny for GM. The TH350 came in a lot of the older (69-early 80's) full size cars such as Caprices and Monte Carlo's. The TH-350 was a 3 speed which made it ideal for drag racing. The TH-350 was phased out for the 700-R. (Pre '87 700R's are reputably weaker than TH-350s. It wasn't until '87 did they fix all of its problems). The 700R4 was eventually changed into the 4L60. Eventually they made an electronically controlled unit, the 4L60-E. This has now evolved into a more stronger 4L65-E which is used on Z06's and newer auto vettes. 1990's LT1/LT4/LS1(V-8's) Camaros, Corvettes, and Firebirds used either the 4L60/4L60-E for auto's. For the manual versions they used the Tremec T-56 6 speed transmission. They only current RWD vehicles GM produces now are the GTO and the Vette, both using the same driveline of the 4L65-E or the T-56. There are plenty of other trannys made by GM (including the powerglide, the TH-250, 4L80-E, etc, etc...) I believe the actual most produced GM auto tranny was the 700-R.

3. I wish I could tell you exactly what the shift kit replaces. I installed a shift kit into my TH-350 when I did an engine swap on my '81 Monte Carlo (which originally came with a TH-250). Other than that, Cookies everyone.

In regards to the question. I've cooked several auto tranny's in my day. Auto trannies HATE heat. They will cook themselves to death if you let them. (RIP my old TH-350) if you're gonna go hard on them, make sure you have a transmission fluid cooling radiator, if not, buy one and install it. Generally manuals will either burn the clutch or launch a planitary gear on the input shaft when you abuse them. Don't be scared about the auto though. With a well trained driver on the new vettes, the best they could squeeze out on the 1/4 was 1 or 2 tenths by choosing the manual over the auto. Just remember, if this car is going to be used for daily driving, I personally would choose the auto. (trust me, being stuck in traffic with a manual SUCKS) Also, cars with auto trannies generally have a higher sale and resale value than the exact car with a manaul. A auto-matic WS6 Firebird or LT1 Camaro would still be a LOT of fun! Best of luck, let us know what you get!

Yes Random task is absolutely right
The th350 isn't the most poplular gm auto and hasn't been so for a long time
the turbo 350 hasn't even been made since 82 and as Random said was replaced with the 700r4 which used a tv cable not a vacuum modulator
Gms other popular rwd's the 200r4 and the 4l80-e don't use vacuum modulators either for that matter
Gms fwd trannies such as the 4t60e and 4t40e don't use a vacuum modular either

The 700r4 did have a bad reputation till 87 when then made some upgrades to it, it now is one of the better 4 speed auto's on the market and with some aftermarket upgrades can survive in very high hp environments.

-Automatics are usually the best choice for drag racing as already mention, they are far more consistant can offer very fast gear changes and have the torque mulitiplication of the tc something manuals can ever claim.

-Most shift kits change the tention on some of the shift valves, come with a stronger pressure relief valve spring to increase line pressure,enlarge cirtian orifaces,replace cirtian shift valves in some cases,remove accumulators.

I am a big supporter of auto's they are very reliable and durable and have some advantages than manuals can never have.

Actually the TH350 is still made today. Its not very commonly seen, but its widely used in commercial applications. Nearly any automatic UPS truck, Fed ex truck, Hino cube, Step Van, and even some of the smaller TD stake bodies still use TH350s

It was also used in passenger cars up through the late 80's, at least as far as 1988. It was mostly phased out by 1986 by the THM200 three speed, but it was used in light trucks and vans as late as 1998.

If you go into a chevy dealer and buy a stripped down commercial one-ton delivery van, you still get a traditional small block 350 with EFI and a TH350C.

Man, lol, now i'm totally un-decided on which to get-eventually.

Thanks alot for all the useful info-you guys kick a**.

It seams to be that MT is for the fun, the rawness of the shifts.. While the AT is for conveniance, naturally, and predictable performance. I might lean toward the AT because of the fact i get tired of things FAST. And i think i'd get tired of shifting, then again-i never drove an MT so i cannot judge.

A test drive will settle this.

in my opinion you get more predictability with a MT

and no offense but i doubt you will learn to drive a MT well during a test drive. also your right, i do get tired of shifting sometimes but when it comes time to hit the twisty bits, nothing beats it.

Indeed, in CART, F1, and WRC, they all use "Semi-Automatic" transmissions. Shift it where you want, or flip a switch, and let it shift for you.
And NO, not all of the cars that ran Pikes Peak had autos, just to make a correction.
My preference? Definately Semi-Auto. But that's if money were no object.
Real world preference: Manual. Absolutely. No amount of BS will sway me. HP loss (ha, right), or whatever. And besides, I just feel more connected to the car if it has a Manual, and I never get tired of it.

I can't get over this notion that an auto doesn't give you a 'connection' to your car. Usually on domestic vehicles a manual transmission can give you more choices (in quantity) of gears. In all honesty, most people who have driven an auto have never driven one that passed stock.
Personal Experience: I had a B&M shift kit in it as well as a B&M Pro Stick Shifter in my Monte Carlo (TH350 Tranny). There is absolutely NO way I can shift faster than that thing in a manual car... PERIOD. Yes, I can shift a manual fast. (I guess this is the part where someone tries to come out and say they can shift faster than anyone) On my monte, as soon as you push that stick up (Slap shift in center console) it went into that gear whether I was just putting around or on WOT. (And the thing would NEVER miss a shift) I could downshift just as quickly. I even had it set so if I were to downshift, it wouldn't over rev the motor. It wouldn't downshift until the motor wouldn't be passed 6200RPM. (on a two bolt main small block 355 ;) ) I hadn't even purchased the most aggresive kit either. Better yet you can purchase a nice kit from anywhere from $40-$80. An auto tranny is also less likely to upset (handling wise, not emotionaly ;) ) the car. I personally believe a lot of 'ricers' to swear by a manual due to the fact that they're running low torque (and generally low HP) cars. Their power band is not that long and as such they want to keep their car in it as long as possible. A downside to an auto tranny is that its not as efficient as a manual. Expect around a 12%-15% driveline loss to a manual as opposed to a 20%-30% loss with an auto. (And I guess when you only have 148hp, you need every last pony you can get ;) ) I have a feeling on which tranny is better will never end. I look at both of them equally, both have their pro's and con's. If I were to go out tommorow and by a vette. I would get a manual. If I were to by a 5 series BMW or a benz. Have to stick(no pun intended) with the auto. In relation to solaris, I still stick beside, don't let it being an auto discourage you. Listed some pros and cons of each (everyone feel free to add some!):

Pro's Auto Tranny:
Fast shifting
High resale value
No clutch to replace
Quicker/easier launches

Con's Auto Tranny:
Can burn it up under hard driving conditions (GET A FLUID COOLER)
Weight (usually generally heavier)
Power Loss

Manual Pro's
Chicks love guys who can drive one
Get lotsa forearm workout if there is no chick
Easier burnouts and 2nd/3rd gear rubber.

Manual Con's
Gotta replace clutch every 75-120k
left leg eventually becomes bigger than your right
TRAFFIC
downshifting more likely to upset car

yes the auto can generaly shift faster but the manual will shift EXAXTLY when you want, i.e. you see something in the road ahead that you will either need to downshift for or upshift for.

pro for the auto is that if you end up with your rear end pointing where our front should be pointing, you probably wont stall out.

pro for the manual, you can drive through crowded areas in a lower gear than you should be in so everyone can hear how much better you are than them. ha

Manual Pro's
Chicks love guys who can drive one
Get lotsa forearm workout if there is no chick


Now every guy is going to go out and get a manual car :biggrin:

AUTO Pro:
Don't need to worry about missing a gear

AUTO Con:
Chicks just like guys who can drive one

Manual Pro:
You have alot more control over the car

Manual Con:
Worse fuel economy

sunfire, I disagree with that manual con. There is less driveline loss and as such you generally achieve a better fuel economy with a manual over an auto...

im pretty sure that in every car sold that has a manual as an option, the manual has better fuel economy

The Buick is a (new to me) 98 Century. V6 FWD with a expensive modulator. Neither of my Cavaliers have a modulator. I was suprised to fine one on the 98 but when it wnet bad it brought back a lot of memories.

I also do not recall the exact parts in a shift kit-it has been a long time.

Here in Florida you are RIGHT-HEAT KILLS. these autos down here really need the extra cooler.

sunfire, I disagree with that manual con. There is less driveline loss and as such you generally achieve a better fuel economy with a manual over an auto...

i meant that if you weren't shifting right like running the car to like 5k rmp and then shift you would lose more fuel at least that is what ive seen in auto vs manual cars ive seen. like my car gets about 30 mpg and a guy a know that owns the same style and year car that has manual gets about 27 mpg. but he does shift and 5k rpm all the time so that probably does something to it. but if you were shifting right then yea you could easily get better fuel economy. but since the thread has to do with fast cars i don't really think of someone shifting for fuel economy in fast cars

I also do not recall the exact parts in a shift kit-it has been a long time.

Shift kits include modifications to the hydraulic part of the tranny mostly. You pull the valve body off and replace the plate above it. Sometimes you remove check balls, replace them with lighter ones, or swap out little springs. It all has to do with modifying the volume and pressure of fluid at differnent points in the RPM range and load.

Most kits include a few different plates and instructions on which balls and springs to alter. In this manner they can offer one box that will do everything from slightly firm up the shifts, all the way up to making it a fully manual race tranny.

Some kits (for older transmissions) include an adjustable vacuum modulator and springs to alter the governor. To the best of my knowledge (which is pretty thin on newer trannys) once they went to electronic transmissions the modulator disappeared. The governors remain, but load compensation is now a function of the computer, not a vacuum signal.

Public... by the way, the tranny in your 98 Century is a 4L60e, but since its front wheel drive, they called them 4T60e. Its just a way of differentiating the different cases, but many of the guts are the same, so your nomenclature wasn't wrong, just the T is more specific.

Running to 5k only depends on where the redline is. Now if it were 5500 or 6k, then yeah.
In my experience (uh-oh), manuals have gotten better fuel economy.

Public... by the way, the tranny in your 98 Century is a 4L60e, but since its front wheel drive, they called them 4T60e. Its just a way of differentiating the different cases, but many of the guts are the same, so your nomenclature wasn't wrong, just the T is more specific.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info on the shift kit. We put several in back in the 80's. I remember the "bb's" and the springs but that was about it. And I certainly did not remember what any of these thing did. Memory is the first thing to go.

The "L" is pretty funny as it was a typo. (if i typed any other letter???) You are again correct it is a "4T60e" lots of wires and a damn modulator valve.

not every car sold has a manual option, I can name tons of cars off hand that you can't get with a manual ex:

Taurus
Suburban
Murano
every Minivan currently sold
Chrysler 300
Dodge Magnum
every Cadillac except the CTS
Every Lincoln
Every Mercedes-Benz except 230 and 320
BMW 7-series & X5
every Jaguar except X-Type
Grand Prix
Every Buick
Honda Pilot
Acura RL
Ford 500
Grand Cherokee

and those are just the ones I could think of off-hand