I dont know the firebirds time but the evo 8 is a little less than 13.4 and if your a really good driver u can get 13.3! 0-60 in 4.8 fastest 0-60 time was 4.589.So tell me what u think.

of course i am going to say LS1! 0-60 times on AWD tend to be better than 2WD... i.e. Eclipse GS-T vs. GS-X, but their 1/4 times are about the same, at that point things tend to even out. Evo=271HP...LS1=330HP LS1, low 13's borderline 12's.

could you be more clear about what you want compared.

Looks like a straight-line freak to me :disappoin

no im not a straight line freak.LOL anyways the evo has way better handling

evo, always...fast in a anyway, any track!!

Trans am. Although Id rather have a Formula with the LS1, less fiddly shit than the trans am has, it's all business. LS1's have a much easier time getting high horsepower with all the aftermarket stuff out there for them. As for the handling, how often are you going to race with handling as a high priority? Especially in America? I'd stick with the firebird. (they look cooler too.)

I second that, and BTW, the evo might take off from the line ahead due to AWD, but as soon as the LS1 is in its powerband, it will soon make up for it. Also, the Trams Am or Formula are both LS1, 98+ and Lt1 for 97 and down. They are just differnt trim levels, trans am being higher.

fucking firebirds are slow i saw the road and track issue#12 and it said 13.8.evo creams it and personally i like the looks of evo better

I wouldn't call 13.8 slow in the 1/4 mile for a STOCK car...
Slight edge to the evo 8 because of their great launches. Of course, some nice dr's on the firebird would even things out.

The EVo8 is the top of the line Lancer.. Now wouldnt it be fair to put up the top of the line Firebird.. The Firehawk? Its like comparing with a Z28 Camaro when there are SS's. Ive seen them run 12.65's @ 112 MPH.. not bad at all if you ask me. I would take the Firehawk straightline anyday.
However.. I am currently stationed in Germany, (though I am temporarily living the desert life in Kuwait)so there is much more to driving here than Stop and Go streetlight racing. The winding roads here, I would go Evo anyday. Mitsubishi has gone and made one HELL of a car. This is from a diehard GM fan.. Im really considering buying the EVO as soon as I get out of this desert, it impresses me that much.
Just my three cents..

fucking firebirds are slow i saw the road and track issue#12 and it said 13.8.evo creams it and personally i like the looks of evo better

Magazine racing is as reliable as an armchair quarterback. :rolleyes:

You can like the looks of whatever better, but since when is a firebird slow? Its slow compared to very few and faster then most.

I've never heard of an LS1 making a 13.8... all times I've heard are much lower. AWD isn't too big of a straight-line advantage, slicks can take care of it. So who wins, 330hp Firebird, which btw is definitely not slow, or 271hp Evo.

Actually I've been wondering, what are the 'official' times for a WS6 firebird and an SS Camaro?

*Edit*

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_9912_firebird/index.html

says here 13.5 in the 1/4, one reason I'd take a Formula WS6 over a Trans Am WS6, it weighs less.




P.S. Check this out
http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news009/


Man, they may not do it often, but when something fucks up on a Toyota, it fucks up bad!

how much are ls1's? cause you say compare it to the top of the line firebird... well lets compare the top of the line firebird to the top of the line ferrari :screwy: ... yeah lets do that

definately evo8... mitubishi is also known to have better reliabuility... i doubt firebirds break down a lot but the quality of them isnt that great... and i have been in both cars... so evo8 no doubt... and also the evo8 isnt the top of the line either... they have a 300hp model, and it is also reduced to a lighter weight

I respect the power the Evo has but am not impressed at all by its styling. It just looks kinda cheesy to me, especially the wing. But I'd buy a Firebird anyday, they have good styling and are Ls1 powered.

styling? You mean the lovely econo-box, er I mean 'sport compact' styling with the wing, turbo and AWD installed? Yup.... love the 'styling'...

the looks of cars is purely subjective. the evo looks quit different from a ordinary lancer. the car is pure form follow function. it has flare fenders, funtional front air dams, functional under body diffusers, a large front mount intercooler, a functional hood scoop, and a functional rear wing. just becusae you guys car about the bland styling of a camaro where there is no real form or real purpose of its exterior design. ( only exception of the fire bird with the ram air, and large stagered setup ) other then that its bland as hell. i by no mean love big wings, and altezza taillights. in fact i hate those and i hate stickers. but what i do love is fuctional body add ons. if it does something, i don't care if its ugly. as long as it makes the car faster etc.

Reliability- Evo
O-60- Evo
1/4 mile- Close Call
Styling- Subjective (evo in my opinion)
Modability- LS1 (very hard to get much more power out of the EVO for cheap)
Track- Evo (AWD>2WD, weight)

Reliability- let time tell(Since when does 'mitsubishi' mean the same reliability as 'Toyota' or 'Honda'? I've heard no complaints about the LS1's in Camaros and Firebirds and the Evo has a turbo, which adds stress to the engine.)

Weight- Evo by about 200 lbs.
Mileage- Firebird (19/28)
Transmission- Firebird 6spd (Evo= 5spd)
0-60- Evo
Quarter time- very close (13.4/13.1)
Top speed- Firebird (not sure about the 175 on this)
Modability(price, complexity and availability)- Firebird
Price- Evo


http://www.modernracer.com/mitsubishilancerevo8.html
http://www.engine-power.com/pontiac/firebird_ws6.html

modification wise evo wins. have u guys even seen the stage packages for the evo? i mean damn for about 4-5 g u can make a 11 second car.u cant tell me u can make a firebird faster then that for 4-5 more g's.

Yo... you gimme $5000 for my LS1...it'll BarBQ, flame broil, have it your way right away, w/ everything on it, and proceed to eat that evo for lunch!!!!!

5000 into an evo will put it right next to your ls1.

i really wish that people who don't know about BOTH cars wouldn't reply with ignorant posts...

why are you asking him to change his comparo?
it's his, he asked the questions... quit trying to bring other cars into it.

you want to compare a top of the line firebird against a top of the line lancer...
well, you want top of the line? there's rally editions in japan that will eat the firebird.

and if there's a corner in sight, say good bye to the awd car that will outhandle most anything.

this is a really interesting thread, if it were actually full of well thought posts.

yes, 5000 into a firebird will make it quick.
5000 into an evo8, depending on where you put the money, will get you into 11's easy.

or you can upgrade the turbo/ecu/fmic/exhaust, and get even faster.

it's all about where you put the money.

having a turbo on your motor adds extra stress...

ONLY IF THE MOTOR ISN'T BUILT FOR IT!
which the evo is.

Ok, you are right about the $5000 thing... but I was just responding to a comment that that much money wont make a 13sec flat car run into the 11s. I'd also like to point out I think this comparo pertains to America and american editions of cars.
Perhaps even with $5000 the evo can keep close to the LS1, just as it does when both are stock... but no matter how you slice it, the LS1 is faster in the straight line, that what is was made for, that's why it is "muscle". Of course the AWD has the corners, but we have the straight-aways. And if you wanna dump more money into the equation, eventually you get a Twin Turbo v8!!!! Within resonable finacial limits, I think it would be a physics immpossibilty to make a Turbo 4 beat a TT v8.

spend the same amount of money on both cars, and you will still be very even.
it depends on how you spend the money. you can easily drop 5k into an evo with a turbo/ecu/little stuff, and run 11's or lower if you try, but it'll take alot of tuning and work.

at any rate, it's not hard to spend minimal money on either car to make more power.

for me, i prefer a better fit/finish to the car, better styling (IMO) and better interior bits... recaro seats... mmm...

both cars have long backgrounds in racing and durability (JDM 4g63's don't have the same issues that US market ones did *eclipse/talon*)

you'll also find that the evo is very comparable stock in the 1/4, closer than the numbers indicate.
you can hit low 13's easy in an evo...

www.evolutionm.net lots of fast cars there, and they're done inexpensively.

the same way you can hit 12's in a stock firebird... you can hit low 13's and MAYBE a 12 in an evo...
aftermarket clutch would get you 12's easy in an evo...

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?threadid=70257&highlight=1%2F4+mile+times
12.9 stock 1/4

What issues do american v8s have? And I was under the impression that 1st gen DSMs have issues as well... two kids I used to chill w/ were into them, and they said you had to fix something every once in a while. 1/4 mile times are "close"... close but not equal, just want to point that out.. also, the longer the drag race the more advantage the Trans Am has. So I stll say it is better at doing what it does, going in a straight line, you dont see evo drag cars really, or Firebird rally cars. And you didn't mention what happens when the Trans is TT.

I wonder how a 1LE packaged LS1 would do against the evo on the track.

http://www.1le.net/docs/fourthgen_1le_story.html

well i think this guy just wants a fast car, in this case dont get the evo, in alhambra in so cal every guy n his mom has an evo, and the evo engine is strong.. its only a 2.0 inline 4 but u can easily pump 400-500hp outta it.. and im not kidding mitsubishi uses this engine in alot of their 4 bangers and they've been using this engine for many car generations, and the evo is a rally car, why would they gear it for the track? or a straightaway? i think if mitsubishi made a nice track car it wouldn't be rally inspired.. jus go get a 350z or some other rear wheel drive car

and the evo is a rally car, why would they gear it for the track? or a straightaway?

Yea it is a rally car. All the better for gearing it closer so u can get the most speed in a short straight away like the 1/4 mile. Then brake and turn and do it all over agian. Evo is fast in the 1/4 mile and it will beat an LS1. The Evo will beat a VR4 and a VR4 will beat a LS1 in the 1/4 mile. Either way both cars are fast.

Yea it is a rally car. All the better for gearing it closer so u can get the most speed in a short straight away like the 1/4 mile. Then brake and turn and do it all over agian. Evo is fast in the 1/4 mile and it will beat an LS1. The Evo will beat a VR4 and a VR4 will beat a LS1 in the 1/4 mile. Either way both cars are fast.

You sound so sure of yourself that the LS1 will lose to these cars. In the 1/4 mile it's a drivers race.

You sound so sure of yourself that the LS1 will lose to these cars. In the 1/4 mile it's a drivers race.


Well yea everything almost comes down to driver race. Were just looking at cars. Thier's gonna be crappy Evo drivers and Thier's gonna be Crappy Camaro or Fbody drivers. Were looking at the whole picture in the 1/4 the evo is faster. Comming out of the factory everything stock. You get into about the 100+ the LS1 is gonna tear the Evo apart. Evo was built for accelartion and short straight shots like the 1/4 mile. Some guy even said him self it's a rally inspirated car. And that's what thier built for.

When has an evo beat an LS1 in the 1/4??? I forgot... cars w/ over 50-60HP less and far less torque than their opponents usually win races. I dont think an evo has a chance against a VR4 either. Mitsubishi built a RALLY car, not a drag car. They alreadt built a drag car, the VR4, and I doubt they'd make a Rally car beat their flagship!

Well from what I've read..and I've read alot the LS1, Evo and the VR-4 are all in the low to mid 13's stock using a manual. The LS1 has a fairly high horsepower advantage and the Evo and VR-4 have the off the line advantage. And I have read of cases of LS1's and Evo's breaking into the 12's stock or very near stock.

When has an evo beat an LS1 in the 1/4??? I forgot... cars w/ over 50-60HP less and far less torque than their opponents usually win races. I dont think an evo has a chance against a VR4 either. Mitsubishi built a RALLY car, not a drag car. They alreadt built a drag car, the VR4, and I doubt they'd make a Rally car beat their flagship!

hmmmm the evo makes more tq then hp just to let you know, also the power delivery of the evo is also very good and will pull straight to redline in every gear but fifth. and starts to make full 19psi boost by 3.5k all the way up to 7K( granted it tapers off to 16psi by 5K ) its also geared for optimum low end aceleration. also its AWD. stock evos are known to do a 0-60ft time of 1.6-1.7 seconds ( stock meaning stock tires, stock clutch, not like how you f bodies guys need drag radials to get a 1.8) . also they weight less then the F bodys. ( 3200 lbs ) its not aways about power.

edit: you also make it sound like the VR-4 was the best mitsubishi ever made. the car got killed off the market by the evo. the VR-4 only lasted 3 generations even in japan. the evo is goin on to its 9th gen soon. the VR-4 was waaay over weight, and handled sluggishly compared to the evo and cost alot more then a evo. they also perform similarly in the 1/4 mile stock but handles light years better. so why would people pay more money for a less fun car to drive? the only thing the vr-4 is better then the evo in is the looks, and top end and high speed stablity. bottom line, sayin that the evo can't beat the flag ship of mitsubishi is a useless argument because the old flag ship is dead for over 6 years, and the evo has replaced it and always sold better then the vr-4 ever since the evo first came out in 92, and is still going on strong

hmmmm the evo makes more tq then hp just to let you know, also the power delivery of the evo is also very good and will pull straight to redline in every gear but fifth. and starts to make full 19psi boost by 3.5k all the way up to 7K( granted it tapers off to 16psi by 5K ) its also geared for optimum low end aceleration. also its AWD. stock evos are known to do a 0-60ft time of 1.6-1.7 seconds ( stock meaning stock tires, stock clutch, not like how you f bodies guys need drag radials to get a 1.8) . also they weight less then the F bodys. ( 3200 lbs ) its not aways about power.

edit: you also make it sound like the VR-4 was the best mitsubishi ever made. the car got killed off the market by the evo. the VR-4 only lasted 3 generations even in japan. the evo is goin on to its 9th gen soon. the VR-4 was waaay over weight, and handled sluggishly compared to the evo and cost alot more then a evo. they also perform similarly in the 1/4 mile stock but handles light years better. so why would people pay more money for a less fun car to drive? the only thing the vr-4 is better then the evo in is the looks, and top end and high speed stablity. bottom line, sayin that the evo can't beat the flag ship of mitsubishi is a useless argument because the old flag ship is dead for over 6 years, and the evo has replaced it and always sold better then the vr-4 ever since the evo first came out in 92, and is still going on strong

I know read my post. I said the Evo would beat the VR4.

hmm...
back up a second, i never mentioned a ttLS1, b/c obviously, it'd be making a ton of power, and not comparable to an evo.

an evo, though having less weight and less power, can run with an LS1 firebird. end of story.

i already posted proof of a stock evo in the 12's, what else do you want?

the evo is a rally car, so it's got bad gearing for drag racing?

what?

rally cars are designed with super fast acceleration, at the disadvantage of top end, so they're not top speed monsters, but they get there FAST.

anything else?

consider that rally cars, with 350hp, can hit 0-60 in under 3 seconds, ON GRAVEL.

and yes, the WRC cars are limited to 350hp.

also remember that the evo is sick on a race track. paved. outhandles tons of cars...

best of both worlds, easily.

Ok, I don't want a pissing contest here. I don't even hate the evo or anything, if you can tell, Mitsubishi is my fav imports, but snyway.
12.9... honestly, a fluke, it will never be consistant, I mean, strange things can happen, I don't think it is a strong argument.
Evo is 3200lb, well my LS1 is only 3402lb, and 200lb with all my torque is nothing!
Evo does have AWD, which is only an advantage right off the line, and not as big as you think... the longer the race, the smaller it matters. And anything longer than a 1/4 mile and I think it is no contest.
VR4 is better than a evo, it has AWD, plus AW-steering, and it has WAY more potential, this can't even be debated, so I think it is a better car.
I already admitted that the evo can take the LS1 in the corners, why is it so hard for you guys to just admit that the LS1 wins in the straight line. STI vs. LS1 is usually a drivers race, so now you guys think the evo can beat an LS1. ok

what makes you think that an STi is that much faster then an evo? i have a friend that has a sti and another friend with an evo, they take off exactly the same, and they are identical from 1st, 2nd and 3rd, then finally on 4th the STi would inch away by a car. so like in mags they usually do run 1/10 from each other and trap 1 mph from each other. so how would a STi run even with a LS1 and a evo can't? the STi and the Evo is soo similar in speed until you hit 100mph. and about the VR-4 having more potential. i don't think so, the AWS is crude and does little to hide its weight, it also comes with really small tires stock, and the transmissions will break ( just like a DSM ) the evo's tranny is alot more stronger, and gettin and you can get an evo in the 11's with the stock turbo, and the u.s. barely got time to even start wrenching on the thing. how many years have a vr-4 been here? so we obviously will have alot more experience tuning the thing. but just wait a few years and you'll see what they can do with the evo. i don't even know how many 10 second vr-4's are here. i know there are some in the states. but not that much. there are quit a few 10 second evo's in japan, new zealand, australia and europe, and in fact R & R just built a 10 second evo in the states. soo how does a evo have less potential then a VR-4? i bet you they did it with less money too then what it would take to make a vr4 run that time.

Ok, I don't want a pissing contest here. I don't even hate the evo or anything, if you can tell, Mitsubishi is my fav imports, but snyway.
12.9... honestly, a fluke, it will never be consistant, I mean, strange things can happen, I don't think it is a strong argument.
Evo is 3200lb, well my LS1 is only 3402lb, and 200lb with all my torque is nothing!
Evo does have AWD, which is only an advantage right off the line, and not as big as you think... the longer the race, the smaller it matters. And anything longer than a 1/4 mile and I think it is no contest.
VR4 is better than a evo, it has AWD, plus AW-steering, and it has WAY more potential, this can't even be debated, so I think it is a better car.
I already admitted that the evo can take the LS1 in the corners, why is it so hard for you guys to just admit that the LS1 wins in the straight line. STI vs. LS1 is usually a drivers race, so now you guys think the evo can beat an LS1. ok

The Evo is faster than the VR4 in the 1/4 mile. Due to the VR4's weight. Evo is faster in the corners. And your right about the straight shot that the LS1 is faster. But that's after the 1/4 mile. Find someone with an Evo and you will find out what they can do in the 1/4 mile. You will be amazed

No problem, I haven't really encountered any to see. I still say that a VR4 has WAY more potential than an evo, we are talking 4cyl. vs. 6cyl. Twin Tubo no less. A VR4 is pretty heavy, but that can be fixed. I don't see it as crude. I mean, it is v6 TT, it is comparble to supra's, rx-7s, I think it is a little out of the evo's league. An evo is somewhat maxed out, how much more HP do you think you can squeeze out of a 4cyl single turbo. And thank you for admitting that the LS1 is faster straight-away!

No problem, I haven't really encountered any to see. I still say that a VR4 has WAY more potential than an evo, we are talking 4cyl. vs. 6cyl. Twin Tubo no less. A VR4 is pretty heavy, but that can be fixed. I don't see it as crude. I mean, it is v6 TT, it is comparble to supra's, rx-7s, I think it is a little out of the evo's league. An evo is somewhat maxed out, how much more HP do you think you can squeeze out of a 4cyl single turbo. And thank you for admitting that the LS1 is faster straight-away!

Yea i said straight away AFTER the 1/4 mile. LS1 will lose in the 1/4 mile dont get my words mixed. And your right to a point. The Evo is pretty much factory maxed already. You can buy a bigger turbo and tweak stuff here tweak stuff thier and proably get about 400 to 500 HP on the Evo. I mean it comes facotry stock with 19 psi set already. It would take alot more money for the VR4 to beat the Evo modded that much. In the long run i would take the VR4 to but were not comparing those two, we are comparing the Evo agiasnt a LS1 firebird.

i don't know that we're looking for a pissing contest, or trying for it.

i simply posted a person who ran a high 12 in an evo, stock.
you said that you can hit high 12's in a firebird, and i don't think you said that was consistent, so why is my example blown off?

i'm sure the 12 second firebird is flukey, just like this evo, apparently...

but in a comparison forum, i'm comparing both cars, not both 1/4 mile times, and the question wasn't about the 1/4 mile.

stock for stock, i'd take the evo, all day, every day.

No problem, I haven't really encountered any to see. I still say that a VR4 has WAY more potential than an evo, we are talking 4cyl. vs. 6cyl. Twin Tubo no less. A VR4 is pretty heavy, but that can be fixed. I don't see it as crude. I mean, it is v6 TT, it is comparble to supra's, rx-7s, I think it is a little out of the evo's league. An evo is somewhat maxed out, how much more HP do you think you can squeeze out of a 4cyl single turbo. And thank you for admitting that the LS1 is faster straight-away!

the evo's super 16G turbo can make up to 450hp. which is good for a low 12 to a high 11 second run on the stock turbo. the car is far from maxed out from the factory. with bolt ons and a ecu reflash you can get a gain of over 100whp. just cuase its a 4 cylinder don't dimiss it. i mean yes it won't be as strong as a 6. but still its far from maxed out from the factory. trust me if you want to talk about maxing out from factory you talk about the S2K.

hmm...
back up a second, i never mentioned a ttLS1, b/c obviously, it'd be making a ton of power, and not comparable to an evo.

an evo, though having less weight and less power, can run with an LS1 firebird. end of story.

i already posted proof of a stock evo in the 12's, what else do you want?

the evo is a rally car, so it's got bad gearing for drag racing?

what?

rally cars are designed with super fast acceleration, at the disadvantage of top end, so they're not top speed monsters, but they get there FAST.

anything else?

consider that rally cars, with 350hp, can hit 0-60 in under 3 seconds, ON GRAVEL.

and yes, the WRC cars are limited to 350hp.

also remember that the evo is sick on a race track. paved. outhandles tons of cars...

best of both worlds, easily.

the rally cars in the WRC are limited to a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder engine at 300hp not 350 get ur facts straight

Ok, I'm gonna go find someone in the evo forum that has 450-500HP on the stock setup... and honestly, how long do you think it will last like that. And the LS1 supposedly can hit 12's with a really good driver, I'm assuming more than one person has done it... but anyway averages times the LS1 is faster, it was even posted in this thread. So NO, the LS1 will not lose to the evo in the quarter, it weighs only a couple hundred pounds less yet is lacking over 60HP. Whatever, you guys are DIE-HARD evo fans and we are talknig in circles.

soo much BS soo little time..

1st off i hear talk about averages in 1/4 mile times when the evo has been around in the states for what a year? and the LS1 has been around a lot longer... you notice how the averages of the 1/4mile times for the EVO is going up as people learn the car here in the states they're gettin better times.. i believe the EVO was rated at what 13.7 in the 1/4 when it first came out?? hardly the case anymore...

2nd oh wow past 100 the LS1 dominates the EVO yeah this is entirely true but how often is that scenario going to be played out? and seeing how we measure everything in 1/4 mile around here i dont even think a top end contest is a factor...

3rd the EVO is not a drag car.. it just happens to be pretty damn good at it.. you talk about the LS1's high point (straight line) ill talk about the EVO's which is handling... another factor that we use to judge cars by which wins here...the EVO's handling is up there with super cars (ferraris, lambo, porsche) whos going to turn a quicker lap?

4th this is to joesph1082 with his 12's comment... it seems someone ALWAYS brings that up "well an LS1 has hit 12's.." have you seen one do it? have you seen video of a confirmed stock car doing it? i havent hell i've never even heard of someone how claimed they did it... so this obviously is FAR from the norm here, with how many cars they made im sure they're are more then a couple factory "freaks" but they dont make up the average 13.2-13.4 ls1 times by any means

so yeah am i saying that trans ams suck? hell no they're awesome but stock for stock they compete with an EVO on the straight line performance ( hell ill even give you that 80% of the time they beat EVO's) however, the more varibles you throw in there ( corners, traction issues, lap times,) the more the Trans Am slowly fades away

What if the track has long straight aways. The LS1 might beat the Evo there. Where as on a technical track the Evo will win. Not all racetracks are the same... Plus I posted something about the 1le option from the factory that really beefs up the Z28's handling. The 1le cars are pretty rare numbering only in the 100's but it is a factory option none the less...check it out.

http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=1le%20camaro

well thats hte beauty of turbos. the engine can handle 450hp for quit a long time, but the thing is it doesn't have too. for daily cruising you set it to low boost, then when your out racing or when you encounter someone you can just simply raise the boost with a few presses of botton and then you'll be running 27psi. ( by the way thats what the stock 16G can flow up to, even though the turbo won't last very long but you can raise it to that level. but you will also run out of fuel before anything so upgraded injectors are a must ). anyways back to the subject, compared to a 450hp n/a or super charged car where it will always make that kind of power no matter what, so your either stuck with gettin horrible gas mileage, stuck on running race gas, or change your internals.

I didn't know evos had a controllable waste gate...

wow, i was off by 50hp on the rally cars.
so it's only 300 hp. which makes it even MORE impressive that they can be as fast as they are...

joseph, you sound like a hella big v8 fan, just like we're die hard evo fans...

450hp on the stock setup was referring to the stock turbo, not the full stock car.

you can do 500+ on stock internals, and it's documented.

get over it.

spend some time on an evo forum before you shoot it down.

go to www.buschurracing.com and see what they've done with their car as well... you'll be surprised...

or at least ENLIGHTENED.

i'm well aware of the capabilities of both cars.

in this case, as two overall cars (not just DRAG cars, like you keep running back to) i'm going to take the evo.

on a track with straights, there are still corners.
if you can handle better in the corners, you can keep up with faster cars. always been that way.

i've got a video of a lotus elise hanging with an f40 on a track. the f40 walks away on straights, and the lotus catches it in the corners. they turn very similar lap times, yet are 100's of hp apart... hmm...

well flylwsi i asked 2000LS1Z28 to join in on this discussion, since he owned both he should tell us what he thinks of both cars.

sorry flylwsi.. i had to make sure that u knew the real limits.. ima wrc fan.. =D

Hey guys, I use to own a 2000 Z28 (Obviously LS1 powered engine), and now own a 2003 EVO (Well actually the bank owns the car, but I drive it :mad: ). The differences between the two are quite pronounced. On the LS1 powered F-Bodies side you have busloads of low end grunt. The EVO doesn't come alive until a little over 3,300 rpms. After that the little EVO literally scoots. 1/4 mile wise you'd be surprised how close the two are. If any of you go to LACR or Speedway you know how piss poor traction is. With an AWD car you don't have to worry about traction. You don't have to heat up your slicks or drag radials. You just rev the sucker up to above 4500 rpms and hear the clutch fry as you launch out of the hole. Of course it destroys clutches fast, but as anyone knows a 1-2 car lead from a dig is mentally debilitating for other drivers. Don't forget about altitude. LS1's don't function too well at tracks above sea level. My first time slip at LACR was a 14 flat 1/4 mile (That's at 2700 ft. elevation). 1/4 mile wise they are pretty much dead even IMO, in the most ideal conditions (Which you will never find at most tracks). From a roll there's no way a stock EVO is gonna hang with an LS1 (Could be the 70 whp advantage). Modding wise the 4g63 engine has set quite a few records (Below 9 sec. 1/4 mile times). Any turbocharged car is going to be able to squeeze power out of (Via boost controller, larger turbo, intercooler, etc.). Now I sold the Z28 for the EVO partially due to piston slap (It didn't have oil consumption issues, just sounded like a new age diesel engine). Well anyways, if any of you wanna run me at Speedway or LACR let me know. BTW my Z28 had quite a few mods (Still only got a 13.1 sec. 1/4 mile at LACR :( ). The mods I had on the Z28 were: Z06 intake manifold (2001+ had them stock), whipser lid, underhood ram air, pro 5.0 shifter, edelbrock N20 system`100 shot`, MAFT, HPP3, magnaflow muffler, exhaust cutout, and MSD wires.

Yo, does everyone not read my posts... peple are telling me the Evo is better around turns... I ADMITTED THAT A DOZENS TIMES... And StupidBrodie says Evo's are fast and average times are going up??? It is established that LS1 is faster and more powerful, that is all I have said, and I like it better. And please dont tell me that a 450HP stock set-up evo is going to last long.

how long is your definition of lasting? i know a guy with a first gen AWD turbo TALON who upgraded his turbo from a 14b to a super 16G then at 180K miles he upgraded to a 20G, making over 400hp. and its been almost a year and its still running. and the DSM's 4G63 is basicaly a outdated obsolete EVO 4G63, so the EVO's 4G63 is even stronger and makes more power. ( side note don't confuse the DSM 4G63's to the evo's beacsue they are quit different. the cam sprockets are on the opposite side, and nothing from the older engine will fit on the improved one. mitsubishi stoped using those DSM 4G63's since the EVO 4 back in like 95.

It is established that LS1 is faster and more powerful, that is all I have said, and I like it better. And please dont tell me that a 450HP stock set-up evo is going to last long.
It's not faster, it is qicker. Big difference. 1/4 mile wise i'd give the nod to the EVO versus my old Z28. Why, cause traction sucks on LS1 F Bodies. I consistantly ran a 2.3 sec. 60'. That sucks. Most EVO's run a 13.5 sec. 1/4 mile (The one in MT was a freak). That's identical to an SS Camaro. Mind you you are taking out alot of factors with an AWD car. No wheel hop, loss of traction, and reaction time loss due to correcting steering from excessive wheelspin.

Ok, but I've heard of other people gettin their 60' down to 2.0 sec. AWD means better traction, more drivetrain powerloss. And if you are talking about a LS1 SS 13.5 is a little high. I mean, the LS1 needs someone who knows exactly how to handle it. And a year isn't that long I'm assuming he doesn't commute w/ a 400HP Evo. I mean, aside from car preference, let's just talk physics and engineering, imagine the added stress, i can say w/o a doubt that mitsubishi didn't design this car w/ the idea in mind to make it be able to handle that set-up as easily as stock (not the definition of economics). I am not the greatest LS1 driver but I hope to find an Evo to see what all the hype is about. I love/bought a camaro because it is the most HP this side of a Corvette. I also bought it over perhaps a v6 TT car because no matter what you say, FI is extra stress on an engine, every stroke the air pressure inside a cylinder is doubled or more (doubled at 15psi... so boost is the actual corelation factor). This is why I also point out that a 400HP stock engine 4 cyl os working so damn hard it's days are numbered, while a well-treated n/a motor can go on for a long time. When shopping for a turbo car people tend to look for low milage, Y, because of the stress.

i don't know why u guys think a inline 4 engine with 450+ hp will not last, i mean if u use it as a daily driver, the turbo usually doesn't kick in til 3000 rpms and you have more than enough power before the turbo spools to use in everyday driving, well imnot sure exactly when the turbo spools but my friend doesn't even need his boost unless he races, so why wont a car with 450hp last? the 450 hp isn't fully used til after 3k rpms seeeeeeee???

You can turn the boost down to save engine life, and the fact that boost doesn't kick in til over 3K rpm brings me to another reason why I think the LS1 is better...No turbo lag, I have a steady increase in power, don't have to "wait" for it.
This kid in my town had a 500HP 1st gen DSM w/ a 20G turbo... but he had a whole rebuild. I'm looking at things from an objective scientific point of view.
The 4cyl has smaller pistons, which means more pressure (pressure is force per surface area; if force is constant, smaller pistons mean area goes down, pressure goes up), further turbo means more pressure, every 15psi doubles the pressure. You have got HALF the cylinders of a v8. The stress on each of those pistons and cylinders is enormous compared to what they were originaly engineered for.
Simple Math, at 450HP, simply the amount of WORK they have to do is almost doulbed, so whatever mitsubishi engineered as their life-span is pretty much cut in half, not even talking into account the other added stressors. It can't make more sense than this.
Import heads tell me how Supra engines, blah, blah blah, are bulletproof etc. Now let's look at another science, economics. No company is going to make some amazing bulletproof engine etc. This is not how economics work... these companies count on making a fortune for parts, even for their supercars. Remember, we are talking about STOCK, MASS-PRODUCED vehicles. There is only one type of product that is pretty much made geat, and that is consumable products, like food, toilet paper, etc. Everything else is made so that you'll need a new one later on, that is why electronics always seem to break... if they made something so amazing it lasting a lifetime the company would go bankrupt.

you're also talking about a motor DESIGNED to take tons of boost.

no company is going to make a bullet proof bottom end?
yet the supra has made up to 1000hp on stock internals?

stock mass produced vehicles, can, and do, make tons of power.

you CAN run 450hp on an evo all day, and you're not going to break. the same way you can run 500hp in a daily driven ls1 and not have an issue.

i'm going to, again, suggest you spend some more time on evolutionm.net, and then consider what you're talking about.

you can't look at something scientifically if you don't know the facts about both sides.

we're telling you the facts, and you don't want to hear them.

why would a company not build a durable bottom end? supras/skylines/wrx's/evo's all have durable bottom ends that can take a bit of power.

you have to ALSO remember that these cars are not the bread and butter for these companies, and they can afford to build them much more stout than their regular cars. you keep forgetting these things... there's more to it than what you know...

I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to buy the bottom end of that 1000hp supra engine after its been used. Mines will throw it away depending on the stress it has been through. And I definatly wouldn't buy a used 1000hp V8 bottom end either. You may just encounter a lot more problems than ever thought of...

If your driving any of these cars as daily transportation, IMO there is absolutely no reason to have such an insane amount of hp. 400hp would be more than enough. And if you drive it like it has 400hp, then it shouldn't be your daily driver in the first place cause your going to fork out the wallet more than you like. If there is any sense at all in having a car like that, then buy a 4dr sedan and drive that daily. A smart person would not be driving a car like that hard and daily.

That is true, and I'm not an expert on every car, but a lot of what I hear I just take as propoganda... I have yet to SEE it with my eyes. Kurtdog is right. What your read in magazines isn't the truth, it's just what they want you to read. What I was tryin to say is that "bulletproof" parts would cost too much to mass manufacture... and if everything was like such, there'd be no parts or service industry... you can't tell me the Supra or the Evo doesn't have factory replacement parts available.
Cars are designed from the factory very specifically, and meet certain standards, including those of longevity... aka you MOD you loose your warantee. If you make a 450HP evo of course mitsubishi isn't goin to still warantee their parts because of course it is goin to break, it's not what the intended it for, if they did, it'd come stock w/ 450HP. And dont say that is ridiculous because there are plenty of cars in that range stock, and if something fails on them the manufacturer takes care of it. Hmm, the cars in those numbers are v10s and v12s. Y? No company in their right mind would produce a 450HP car that was a turbo 4cyl, it is too risky, has too much potential to break. Would it make a difference to the consumer if the Viper (i know it makes 500HP now) made 450HP from its v10 or from a turbo I4 if it still put up the same numbers. There's obviously a reason y they dont make like this right.

well i think the way the japanese car companies think that they should push as much power as they can out of small displacement and smaller engines.. i mean how many japanese supercars in the past were v8s? and how many were turbo/twin turbo? almost all of them, but nowadays they are going for all motor.. like the Z n the skyline coupe (not gtr) i think they figured out that too many people don't know how to maintain a turbocharged car

No company in their right mind would produce a 450HP car that was a turbo 4cyl, it is too risky, has too much potential to break. Would it make a difference to the consumer if the Viper (i know it makes 500HP now) made 450HP from its v10 or from a turbo I4 if it still put up the same numbers. There's obviously a reason y they dont make like this right.
I don't believe they are arguing with you about manfucaturers making a 4 cylinder car that makes 450 hp. The EVO is suppose to have forged internal work on it, like the Supra. It is a relatively small engine (2.0 liters), so it's not gonna be capable of the numbers of the Supra. Secondly, why do you think they charged soo much for these little cars? A base Lancer costs about $15K. Do you honestly believe that they made the engine with cheap connecting rods, bearings, pistons, etc...? I won't argue with you about engine longevity with a car that produces 450 hp from 2.0 liters, cause obviously it isn't gonna last as long as when it was stock (Producing 271 hp). You also state that an LS1 can produce 450 hp w/o longevity being sacrificed. That's total BS. Almost everyone knows that the stock pistons on LS1's are shit (Just like the Mach 1 mustang). Of course it's relatively easy to get those numbers N/A (Heads/cam/ bolt-ons, fuel injectors/fuel pump). The LS1 can produce more power then the EVO (Gail Banks has a kit up to 1500 hp). Stock for stock though, the LS1 engine isn't all that durable w/ 450 hp either.

the STI is not far from 450 hp, it already makes 300 and it isn't that hard to make it go to 450 hp, and also why are u guys talking about longetivity, YOU CAN CONTROL THE BOOST IN A TURBO CAR, just get a boost controller and u can practically turn off the turbo so even if u have 2387409124921hp when the turbo kicks in, it wont work til what? THE TURBO KICKS IN, if u control the turbo and it doesn't kick in til later whats the chance u will break the engine? also who drives a 450hp+ car as a daily driver if u can't control that horsepower and pay for the gas AHAHAH

Ok... A n/a V8 LS1 can get close to 450HP with bolt-ons, and perhaps a cam, and tuning. So you are not pushing it too hard, it has 8 cylinders to spread the stress out over, as opposed to a 4-banger... and someone did brag about 1000HP in a Supra on stock internals... that is THE BS!!! I'm not saying the LS1 is so mighty, the LT1 block is stronger. But lets run 450HP evo and LS1 side by side for a while, we'll see which breaks first... that was my only point, and that the LS1 has a faster 1/4 mile time.

the supra had 949hp on stock internals. believe it or not~ripleys :smile:

Was it really on Ripley's... anyway, it must be a believe it or not... a freak, aka not the norm.

b/c it makes power you can't comprehend, it's a freak?
it's all about tuning.

and there are definitely more than one of these 1000hp supras on stock internals.
i've read of at LEAST 3.

But you dont hear about all the ones breaking... just to note, I am a rationlist. And you can't believe everything you hear.

Comparing the Evo to the Trans AM is like comparing apples to oranges. The TA is a straight line performer whereas the Evo is built for rally and twisties. So why even argue about either car. They both are awesome in their field.


Straight line performing, yes I have seen F-bodies pull high 12s completely stock on a set of MT ET Streets. Mainly on the birds it's the formulas which has been stripped down weight wise from the factory. They come around 3300lbs compared to the Trans AM weight around 3650+lbs. If you want to dispute or argue cases on stock f-bodies hitting 12s then visit www.ls1tech.com and take it with them.


Their both awesome cars and I like them both however ofcourse I favor the bird more as I own a 99 Trans AM and wouldn't trade it for anything.



And here's another site some may be interested in:

http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/auto3/9907AUCTBM.html

it's great that you can say you've seen 12 second stock fbodies, but why is my stock 12 second evo seen as a freak?

i'm sure there are just as many firebirds that can/do break as there are evos...

and for the record, the issues the older dsm's (4g63 powered eclipses/talons) had are non-existant on the evo.

the only issue that people have been having is that the stock clutch doesn't hold up to much more power than stock...

and that's it...

Both cars are great. And fast.

Nevertheless, if someone couldn't decide which car to buy based on performance and asked for advice, I think the easiest way to put it would be to say:

"Do you want a short, tall, boxy, four-door rally racing car?"

"Or do you want a long, low, & wide 2-seater sports car?"

They are two totally different images. You either want one or the other (or both! :iceslolan). Most people will decide which one they want based heavily on looks. Smaller, rally/econobox-type cars are what happen to be in style now. You pull up to a car meet these days in an Lancer or WRX (let alone Evo or STi) and you're turning heads (thats if you have some exterior mods that distinguish you from the 30 other blue Subaru's). If you're like me you cruise the parking lot just looking to find the one or two groups of Pony cars and hope for a few Vettes.

As far as reliability is concerned, your engine is as dependable as you make it. As long as you select the proper components and improve failsafes as you increase HP, with regular maintenance that motor will run forever. In terms of boosted engines, the only inevitable issue becomes the seals - no big deal although somewhat of a bitch to replace (especially if you're doing it every other weekend!).

Took an evo w/ my z/28 from roll. The evo runs strong complements of 19lbs of boost but runs outa gear at higher speed - function of the close gearing/small tire height... Wanted to run from a stop to see what it could do out of the hole but he wouldn't do it.

It comes down to pretty much a drivers race. The LS1 has the torque advantage, evo is lighter. Spin wheels on the LS1 and the evo is gone, will have to run it down. Launch the evo @5+ grand to get the jump and soon the clutch is gone.

19lbs of boost on a 4 banger is not good in terms of long term reliabilty. Clutches seem to be a sore point (one guy said he was on his third clutch in a few months-WTF??) Couple in the not so great reliability track record of mitsu ... Time will tell....

For the cost of an evo I'd rather get a turbo Supra or a supercharged Cobra. Both have forged internals and lots of potential for big HP... Both will smoke the evo and can take on additional boost without breaking a sweat. The LS1 fbody is the best bang for the buck. GM corked up the fbody LS1 to keep it out of vette territory (same engine). Its deadly with just an intake, headers and exhaust.

Bottom line is you can make even a honda civic run like a bat out of hell with high boost or NOS but it won't last... A naturally aspirated larger displacement engine is not working nearly as hard and still putting out higher output.

Its just a matter of physics...

Anything will last long if you build it to last - V8, V6, I4, H4 - whatever. I don't know much about the Evo (its not even available/legal in Canada :screwy: ) but I'd find it hard to believe its engine does not have some forged internals (either just the pistons or rods or crank etc...) or pretty strong cast components. And keep in mind there are a number of good performance machine shops out there that argue using certain cast aluminum pistons or cast iron cranks outweigh the benefits of using certain forged materials. Then you've got an entire argument between different types of forged metals - 4130 is weaker than 5130 yet 4340 tends to benefit more from the forging process, yada yada...

You don't necessarily kill an engine by running high amounts of boost. The seals on the other hand will get done in much faster but if the engine is setup properly you can run as much boost as desired, safely.

Take a stock F-Body for instance. If you want to bolt on a blower without changing anything else go ahead.

You can run 5-6 psi of boost safely on a stock setup with the only real change being a switch to high octane gas.

If you want to run 8-9 psi safely on that stock motor - no problem, but you'll need an intercooled blower. It might be possible with a non-intercooled blower but the timing will surely need to be retarded, higher octane gas used, and you'd better have a modified and very efficient engine cooling system (this would NOT be the safe way of doing it!).

Feel like 14-15 psi? Go for it - although this time you will definitely have to swap in some low compression pistons, and they'd probably need to be forged (or a stronger cast compound). Same goes for the connecting rods and crankshaft. But anything is possible, and safe to run provided that its setup properly.

I don't see a factory Evo with warranty putting out whatever amount of boost it does and not being able to handle it over the long-term course of its life. And most of the time cars like these are overbuilt in terms of tolerances, so sneaking out 2 or 3 more psi out of the system is no big deal.

Well... if you are running 15PSI of boost, the pressure inside the cylinder is double that of an n/a enigne. The Force per unit area is doubled, so the total force on the cylinder and pistons is doubled. If wear is equal to stress over time, then over the same time the stress is doubled, the wear is doubled, and the engine's life is cut in half... I aggree, it's a matter of physics. I don't know anynoe who would buy a Turbo car with high miles.

You're funny Joseph. I won't waste time debating through several posts to end up where we started - besides, you're the college boy with something to prove.

But to say wear is equal to stress over time, and that when one gets doubled so does the other, and the engine's life is cut in half - sounds ridiculous. Are you sure your textbook didn't say wear is "representative of" or "the result of" stress over time? Are you trying to say an engine set to run at 1000 RPM under proper maintenance will continue to do so for exactly twice as many decades as a similar motor setup to run at 2000 RPM - or something like that, see this is meaningless bullshit I wish to avoid. Forget equations and talk practical for a moment. So you believe a forced induction engine cannot last as long as a naturally aspirated engine, right?

What is wear in terms of an engine and what is stress? What do you think is happening inside any engine when its running - are the pistons being worn away or the cylinders being dramatically eroded? Its like, I don't know if you're thinking about simple little things like piston rings or manifold gaskets getting eaten up - sure that kind of wear is not only inevitable but practically common (and as I've said twice, accelerated with forced induction setups), but its certainly no cause to take your engine to the junkyard. Again, what do you think is getting worn away or happening when an engines life is being "cut in half" by forced induction (or specifically 15 psi of boost?). Each and every component is built to specific tolerances, and you're not wearing anything away if its being run within its tolerances - especially things like pistons, rods, cranks (things like valvesprings do suffer fatigue more but its due to their nature and their application). The beauty of certain forged steel for instance is that instead of breaking at its peak tolerance it will bend and then return to its previous form.

A 4340 forged crankshaft doesn't care if the 500 HP being dropped from above is being made with 15psi or 14.5:1 compression - provided that the 500 HP is within its tolerances. Right?

Do you think a 550HP 15psi fed LS1 will not hold up as long as a 550HP 14.5:1 stroker LS1, simply because its being force fed? Are we arguing again just to argue Joseph or what. :naughty:

I don't know anynoe who would buy a Turbo car with high miles.

That would be someone who is not afraid to pop the heads off and change a few bent pushrods, because some stupid lamer thinks his old Grand National is over the hill! :eek7: :chair: :nono: :grinno:

put it this way if you want straight line times evo 8 does 12.8 (at least the jap version does :) if ur in america then its a dif story. u guys dun have the yaw control or the electronic stuf for the awd an so on in the jap spec evo . duno about the power but i think its tuned down or sumthin for the usa version. real evo has over 300 hp mitsu jus covering it up because of the hp limit. on cold days makes even more thanks to turbo. on the track a evo 8 takes out a lotus elise by a bit (lotus elise was made for one thing to race an handle on the track) . evo 6 did 0-100km/h an bak to zero in 6 seconds duno but the 8 (might be bit slower due to the extra weight but it does have more power). the jap version gets new gear box also (6 speeder). im in aus so i duno wat the other car ur comparing is exactly but i wouldn't mind cheking it out if ne one got mechanical info pm me.

Well, considering you are an LT1 owner, I think you would be on my side, but you love to debate as much as I do. And I am not arguing just to argue.
I am sick of import propoganda how "muscle" cars are low tech, blah blah blah, and how the Supra or Skyline can handle 900HP on stock intertnals. All that is to me, is propoganda, I've never seen it with my eyes. I have seen built up muscle cars, and a few imports too, all with rebuilt internals though. The 500HP DSM around here has a 20G turbo but a rebuild engine to match.
Even the import people I know admit that turbo cars wear faster than n/a cars. Easy Math equation, 550HP LS1, each cylinder is making 68.75HP while on the 550HP Mitsu engine each cylinder is making 137.5HP. Ok, so over the same amount of time, each of those cylinders are doing twice the work of the LS1. Now, every machine has a lifespan, pretty much expressed by the amount it can do over the course of it's existence. It will exist twice as long if it only does half-a-day's work instead of a full days, it's life is in Joules not in Years. This is one reason I like nice n/a cars, don't have the extra s*it to worry about.
As for you, I was actually looking forward to our discourse about history, but you never wrote back, I'd appreciated if you would, it is not everyday I get into an exchange with someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Is there something wrong with being in college? Weren't you there once? And so because you are out and have a degree, does that make you smarter than those still in college? I have been reading Ancient History since I was 12, can tell you the general history of the world just from memory, and know w/o a shadow of a doubt that I am a lot more qualified in the subject than many of those out there that have degrees in it. I assumed I already proved this to you but if you would like to you can test me.

What was left to debate in that history thread? I suggested you do some traveling and you suggested America dominates the world. :)
"nuff said" no?

I'm pulling your leg about being a college boy cause you seem to like going off on a lot of abstract & technical stuff. I was sort of the same way - I'd get together with my buddy's studying business & finance and would tell them about all the crazy shit I discussed in class. The fact that I've finished my Degree means little more than I'm not as interested in bringing the material up to everybody like before. I do look forward to discussing these things with people who share similar interests though.

Sounds to me like you're worried about your LS1 block or something (correct me if I'm wrong). As much as I like putting down the Gen III aluminum mold its really not as questionable as some people think. GM did their homework. Unless its been really re-worked and over-bored I see the LS1 taking years and years of abuse...

And begging for more.

No, I was just assuming you were tryin to say... I don't know what but it sounded insulting, but whatever, my BAD then! If you can understand me then you know I will debate against the propoganda til I am blue in the face...And I'd like to see these cars w/ 900Hp on stock intenals... I am tying to also back up my claim about the double wear, which I think the fact that over time the Evo's cylinders do twice the work proves my point, if anyone can say different, post... and don't say "Japanese make better enignes than Americans" that is a stupid an illogical argument.
DVS, I actually wanted to ask you the question of when do YOU feel the Roman empire fell, be it 476 or 1453???

i don't know that we're looking for a pissing contest, or trying for it.

i simply posted a person who ran a high 12 in an evo, stock.
you said that you can hit high 12's in a firebird, and i don't think you said that was consistent, so why is my example blown off?

i'm sure the 12 second firebird is flukey, just like this evo, apparently...

but in a comparison forum, i'm comparing both cars, not both 1/4 mile times, and the question wasn't about the 1/4 mile.

stock for stock, i'd take the evo, all day, every day.


My cousin has an 2000 ws6 trans am. He bought it brand new, slapped on a set of bf goodrich drag radials, everything else stock and ran 12.80's all day. Lets see the evo with drag radials do that!

Eh no bad there - I said I was pulling your chain - and expected a little heat coming back my way (wasn't going to start a flame war though).

I didn't realise you and the other fellow were comparing boosted 4 cylinders to n/a V8s. In that sense, yes I agree the smaller motor is working "harder" to produce the same 300 HP the V8 is making. Although if you think about it, the larger V8 is in some sense is working harder than the 4 cylinder because it has to turn much larger & heavier components - its rotational mass is greater than the smaller engine and you could say it requires more force to move it (it certainly generates more force as a result).

Nevertheless, my point was that factory boosted engines are specifically built to handle the strains compared to factory n/a engines. Cars like the Cobra and STi utilize much stronger forged and cast components compared to, for instance, the cheap powdered metal connecting rods my car came equipped with from the factory. So its like if you tried using that stuff in a high-performance boosted car then for sure you'd be cutting down the engines lifespan. But because the tolerances of these engines is much higher the everyday stress and working conditions is really not an issue. Don't get me wrong, I live by the "No Replacement for Displacement" approach. My car will never see a bottle or blower - we'll get down to the 10's the olde fashioned way: by getting her cranked & cammed up along with a really nice set of heads.

As far as "Japanese" cars or engines being better than "American" of course I agree that statement is pointless. I think its funny if anything considering so many of our popular Honda's, Toyota's, Ford's, Chevy's, and Daimler-Chrysler's are built within 100 km of my home - by Canadians (Ontarians specifically, which basically means people form all over the world! :grinno: )

900 HP on any factory engine's stock internals? I don't know who argued that (sure would be tough to back up). I don't doubt it might be possible though - for maybe 1 or 2 quarter mile runs or track laps, but the engine would be gonzo after that. There's apparently a list of cars on LS1tech.com that have hit 11's (low and high) on stock internals - although that doesn't tell the whole story its still impressive.

Exactly, hey, r u up for more history discussion

My cousin has an 2000 ws6 trans am. He bought it brand new, slapped on a set of bf goodrich drag radials, everything else stock and ran 12.80's all day. Lets see the evo with drag radials do that!


gee, it took slicks for his stock car to run in the 12's.

the guy whose thread i linked from evolutionm.net ran 12.9 in an evo STOCK on STOCK tires.

joseph mentioned people running in the 12's stock...

stock, to me, doesn't mean slicks.

put a set of stickier tires on an evo, and you're 12's with stock everything else, just like the ws6.

what was the point of your post, exactly?

:werd:

The words 'slicks' and 'stock' don't go in the same sentence

gee, it took slicks for his stock car to run in the 12's.

the guy whose thread i linked from evolutionm.net ran 12.9 in an evo STOCK on STOCK tires.

joseph mentioned people running in the 12's stock...

stock, to me, doesn't mean slicks.

put a set of stickier tires on an evo, and you're 12's with stock everything else, just like the ws6.

what was the point of your post, exactly?

First off I didn't say slicks, if you know what your talking about drag radials and slicks are two totally different things. Second did you see it happen? I could post I had a stock EVO that ran 12 seconds flat and no one would no the difference. Third 12.80's is roughly 6/10 of a second off the quarter from street tires which is hell of an improvement, besides the car still spun out of the whole. Last I'll give you the STOCK tires on the STOCK EVO but there is one difference, on an EVO you are putting probably 250 hp to all four wheels, on a trans-am your putting 300 to the rear wheels, which one is gettin out of the hole faster? If that EVO ran 12.90's bone stock, it was a fluke. It will happen very rarely when the temperature and humidity are just right, and that driver is pushin that car to it's limits. As I said before 12.80's alll day, every day.

I went and did some searching and the best time I could find for a stock EVO was 12.994 with a reaction of .514. I found some others that had exhaust as the only modification which only ran 12.90's. You put a cat-back exhaust on a trans am and that's at least 12.60's. Don't get me wrong, I'm not tryin to put down an EVO. They are nice cars, powerful for a little motor and on a road course the lsi will get it's ass handed to it, but in a 1/4 mile run the ls1 will dominate.

This all depends on what you plan to do with your car. If you're gonna go out and run on a race track then I'd go with the Evo 8, although I'd take the RS version over the regular. (no spoiler) If you wanna spend all night on the drag strip it could go either way. And If I'm gonna spend all my time cruising or street racing I'd probably go with the LS1. And don't forget rallying, although because I live in America that's not a major form of racing. My personal opinion is that the Evo is ugly and I see so many Camaro's and Firebirds they make me wanna puke.

P.S. I'd take the 03 Cobra over both as always. :smile:

First off I didn't say slicks, if you know what your talking about drag radials and slicks are two totally different things. Second did you see it happen? I could post I had a stock EVO that ran 12 seconds flat and no one would no the difference. Third 12.80's is roughly 6/10 of a second off the quarter from street tires which is hell of an improvement, besides the car still spun out of the whole. Last I'll give you the STOCK tires on the STOCK EVO but there is one difference, on an EVO you are putting probably 250 hp to all four wheels, on a trans-am your putting 300 to the rear wheels, which one is gettin out of the hole faster? If that EVO ran 12.90's bone stock, it was a fluke. It will happen very rarely when the temperature and humidity are just right, and that driver is pushin that car to it's limits. As I said before 12.80's alll day, every day.


yeah, b/c drag radials came stock on F birds?

keep in mind the power advantage of the F body...
i'm sure that if you add 60 hp to an evo, it's running the same/faster than the stock F body...
what's the point, exactly?

and a catback on stock F bird isn't going to get you into the 12.60's...
unless you have documented proof on that, i'm not believing it.
at all...

yeah, b/c drag radials came stock on F birds?


They did - or at least they used to. Arguably the most major upgrade to the inaugural SS Camaro option in 1996 was a set of 275/40-17 BFG G-Force KD's. Besides badging and numbering, the early SS option was really just the ram air hood & box, the rims & tires, and I think a few minor suspension mods (nothing like the beefed up suspension parts the later SS/WS-6 models got).

In one of my old Hot Rod Camaros magazines they tested a '97 SS with the G-Force and pulled off a 13.7 ET @ 102 MPH (actually, sorry they used to run BFG Comp T/A's - which were the predecessor to the G-Force KD's. Very similar tread pattern and compound).

A stock 275/285 HP LT1 Camaro was good for low to flat 14's back in those years. If you think about it, the better tires on the SS option was almost entirely good for that one-quarter to one-third of a second drop in ET's. Although the ram air upgrade in the SS claimed to bump the HP up to 305, that original ram air design was rather poor because it located the air filter at the highest point in the engine compartment and directly atop (literally resting on) the intake manifold. I'd be amazed if this setup would actually show a 5 RWHP increase if bolted on to an otherwise stock 275/285HP LT1 Z28.

And hey, I just realized you said "F-Birds" Flylwsi - and unless you meant to say F-Bodies and not Firebirds then this post is pretty much without direction. Except perhaps that tires can make all the difference in the performance of any car.

OK the evo maxx's at about 500hp after mods, Ebay had a firebird that made 1200 hp with dyno slips and detuned to 735hp for the street. Id take LS-1 all day long spend your 5K on an S/C or a turbo and it will eat the evo

yeah, b/c drag radials came stock on F birds?

keep in mind the power advantage of the F body...
i'm sure that if you add 60 hp to an evo, it's running the same/faster than the stock F body...
what's the point, exactly?

and a catback on stock F bird isn't going to get you into the 12.60's...
unless you have documented proof on that, i'm not believing it.
at all...

Actually at one time they did, but I never did said they came stock. I said they weren't slicks as you tried to say. If tires make a car not stock, than that's a new one to me. That means when your tires wear out and you put new ones on you have a modified car....or at least that's what your saying. Also there is no difference in power. If you compare the power to weight ratio it is pretty equal and if anything the evo has an advantage with a quicker revving 4 cyl, awd, and a turbo.

If the trans-am is puttin down 12.80's with the stock exhaust then it will definately be in the 12.60's with a cat-back. A cat back exhaust will usually drop a car 2-4 tenths of a second, easy.

Also if you said if you add 60 hp to an evo it wil run the same/faster than a stock f-body, so you basically just said a stock evo can't beat a stock trans-am.
So what's your point, Exactly?

my point?
no point really.
i'm not claiming it's faster or any of that BS.

i said it could run in the 12's. end of story.

tires don't make a car not stock?

really?

put a set of R compound tires on a stock car and take it to ANY race, autocross, etc.

what are they going to tell you? it's not stock.

replacing tires with a stock spec tire isn't modifying.

upgrading to something stiffer, stickier and better handling is a modification.
sorry.

by the way, new (for America at least) Evo MR has a 0-60 time of 4.3 seconds, .98g on the skidpad, and runs through the slalom at 70.8 mph. it now has 295 lb-ft of torque and 285 horsepower. plus it's 300 lbs. lighter, has revised suspension and ACD. $33,000 and should arrive in the states sometime this year. As of now I don't have any 1/4 mile times.

my point?
no point really.
i'm not claiming it's faster or any of that BS.

i said it could run in the 12's. end of story.

tires don't make a car not stock?

really?

put a set of R compound tires on a stock car and take it to ANY race, autocross, etc.

what are they going to tell you? it's not stock.

replacing tires with a stock spec tire isn't modifying.

upgrading to something stiffer, stickier and better handling is a modification.
sorry.

Actually you did say it would run the same/faster than a stock trans-am with 60 more HP,it's all written in black and blue, so your busted there.

Second, Every rule book I have ever seen clearly states to run in the stock class tires must be DOT approved, no wider than 11", and not altered in anyway. B.F. Goodrich Drag Radials are DOT approved so technically they are stock, according to just about every track in the country.

Like I said before

Drag Race - Trans-Am

Road course - EVO

Looked up the EVOs test numbers from road and track and motorweek to get real world 1/4 mile results for the EVO. Road and track reported 13.9 @100.3mph. Motorweek reported 13.8@101mph. Dont believe me see for yourself - here are the links..

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=691

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2240.shtml

Now for the fbody camaro and firebird - 13.5@108 for the z28 and 13.5@107 for the firebird. SS camaro 13.2@108, firehawk 13.2@107mph..

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2148a.shtml

A common known fact is that GM used the same ls1 engine on the vette and fbodies, but corked up the air intake and exhaust on the fbodies so it wouldnt be too competitive with their flagship. This is why its so easy to buy simple bolt on parts for the fbody resulting in healthy SOTP gains. 12 sec quarters are just a few bolt ons away for an fbody.

Like I noted above I took out a EVO by a few car lengths w/ a ls1 camaro. Gotta give the EVO some credit though as its quicker than a lot of the stangs I roast.

I think the supra turbo and even the wrx sti are much better vehicles than the EVO though. Just dont like the styling, Mitsubishi should put the EVO drivetrain in the eclipse, now were talkin...

Thanks for the dose of realism.

so b/c a magazine printed it, it's realism?
owners posting time slips that are faster aren't real?

so let's just go from magazine times for both cars.
not impressive is it?

the evo has been proven to make far more power than the wrx in many areas. and the new sti motor ( the 2.5 ) is brand new... never really been pushed...

so b/c a magazine printed it, it's realism?
owners posting time slips that are faster aren't real?

so let's just go from magazine times for both cars.
not impressive is it?

the evo has been proven to make far more power than the wrx in many areas. and the new sti motor ( the 2.5 ) is brand new... never really been pushed...


Hmmmm I really don't like EVOs think they're ugly and overrated. They do perform well for a car based on a front driver, sorry I'd take the WRX any day over the EVo, but since the thread is EVO or Firebird my answer Firebird.

overrated?
how?
based on a front driver? not really.
the evolution platform shares very little with the actual lancer... more with the world platform lancer than the US spec car.

overrated.
how many 11 second wrx's are there compared to 11 second evo's in the states...

case rested.

Realism is that a car w/ 70+ extra horses and only 200lb. more is going to kill an Evo, that's realism.
Hey, Y not just start the race from a roll.

overrated?
how?
based on a front driver? not really.
the evolution platform shares very little with the actual lancer... more with the world platform lancer than the US spec car.

overrated.
how many 11 second wrx's are there compared to 11 second evo's in the states...

case rested.


Yes I said overrated and sorry case still in dispute guy, just calm down a little not everyone is going to agree with you you know?

so if it's overrated...
how.

so if it's overrated...
how.


Quite a few around here in the bay area and they just don't put it down on the street. Sorry.

what does that mean exactly...
they don't put it down on the street....

so they're not quick street racing, or?
do you know if the driver's are new to awd, are they rich kids whose parents bought them the car?

www.evolutionm.net will tell you they're not overrated.

i'm not defending it just b/c i like it, but i'm defending it b/c it's the truth.
far easier to get one in the 11's than a wrx/sti.

find one with a driver that's experienced with his car and awd, and then see what happens...

or got to evom and say the same...

(side note, i'm not trying to come off as a dick, but i find it hard to comprehend that a car that is universally praised and easily modded to be overrated... so i'm asking out of curiousity, not out of a malicious intent... ;) )

Not exactly sure what this big arguement is about, and I am at work with little time to spare. I just wanted to say that I ran against the EVO at the track here in Florida two times. The first time, he was scared to launch it hard, and ran a 13.8. We talked afterwards, and he wanted to go again. He took off extremely hard, got the jump on me of course, but I reeled him in fairly quickly in the stock Mach 1, and he ran a respectable 13.5 to my 13.08. The traction was great that day, I was cutting 1.9's on stock tires. So, in my honest opinion, I think a stock EVO 8 cannot run a low 13. Unless there is that factory freak!! lol.. Thanks for reading

well...
since you're talking about a guy that wasn't willing to launch hard...
if he's not dropping the clutch at 6k+, he's not launching hard, which is how you get stellar times in the 1/4 in an evo...

He did not launch at more than probably 2-3 grand on the first try, but I suggested that he launch like the tuner guys suggest(6,000rpm's) on the second try. I understand that its tricky to launch an awd car, but he wasn't a beginner by all means.. Him and his brother shares the ownership of a 69 mach one that runs 11's. It may be possible to hit a 13.3-13.4, but it didn't beat me that day, which made my day after hearing that an evo would own me...

Maybe I've run into guys behind the wheel of these machines who can't drive them, it's hard to believe though that everyone who drives one doesn't know how. The races I've seen around here the EVOs are always losing to Supras, 5.0s, and yes WRXs although they take most Hondas they go against. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk either I know I don't like the looks of EVOs basically econo box, but I do respect Mitsu AWD. It's just I haven't really seen one put it down and they seem to be one of the "must have" machines, yet nobody has really done much with one eccept rice them out here.

lol... Yeah, they are pretty quick considering what they are.. They can be fast in a drag race, but you have to abuse the crap out of the clutch and engine to get the top performance out of them.. Just imagine what a 6 grand launch would do to a clutch if performed over and over... OUCH!! I like the low end torque of my mach preferably.!! It will pull 1.9's from a gentle 1500 rpm launch..

you guys are saying how the EVO is overated and that the WRX is much better. how so? i have 3 friends who owns each of those cars. a stock WRX is notorious for having a weak tranny. most of them can only run low 13's safely on that tranny. thats basically as fast as a stock EVO. there are a few who have gotten in the 12's but those are rare. now for the flagship STi. i also have a friend who owns one. and the STi and the EVO always race. and i'll tell you this, they take off identical, and their 1-3rd gears are identical. however once the STi hits 4th it will pull on the EVO by a car, and nothing more. and on the highway roll, if the EVO gets on it slighty before the STi, the STi will not catch up fast enough. if they punch it at the same time, the STi will very slowly walk the EVO. they really aren't that much different like most magazines have you believe they are. now heres the main advantage of the EVO. the Stock bottom end can handle 350-400whp. however on the semi open deck 2.5 boxer engine on the STi with cast iron pistons and steel rods many of them are known to blow at making only 400crank hp. so how is the STi soooo superior? i get a fair amount of exposure to both cars becasue both of those guys happen to be my best friends, and i always hear the STi owner complaining about how weak his engine is. of course the main culprit for the engines being so weak is a POS engine management system. once they change that with TURBO XS's U-TECH or COBB Tuning's ACESSPORT, the 2.5 should hold up better. but the strenght of both the EVO and the STi is not the same, and a modded evo will beat a modded STi. its been proven.

bottom line: i would never pick a WRX
if i had to leave the car stock i would pick the STi
if i were to mod, i would pick the EVO hands down.

P.S. both of my friends know how to drive their AWD's quit well, when i raced each one of them from a dig they will get usually a 3-4 car jump on me, and they don't bog off the line either. the STi usually sets his DCCD at 65% rear bias and thats what the STi launchs optimum at usually, putting down a 1.6 at the 60 ft mark, this was proven from a guy who went to the track trying all the different settings, and the STi even with that still can't beat the EVO at the launch ( meaning they launch equal off the line ) believe me there are many many people who can't drive these cars for shit. i just happen to be lucky to know a few of these people who actually can drive them. because i also know another person who have a EVO and the EVO was his first stick car. so yeah there are all kinds of EVO drivers out there. don't judge the cars speed if they cna't drive the car to its fullest potential.

lol... Yeah, they are pretty quick considering what they are.. They can be fast in a drag race, but you have to abuse the crap out of the clutch and engine to get the top performance out of them.. Just imagine what a 6 grand launch would do to a clutch if performed over and over... OUCH!! I like the low end torque of my mach preferably.!! It will pull 1.9's from a gentle 1500 rpm launch..


abuse the crap out of the clutch?
get an upgrade.
then you're not abusing it.
get something designed for that...

i agree w/ what tat said completely.

How about they include all needed parts to handle what the car is capeable of. Obviously they didn't make the car to launch at crazy rpm's or the clutch would already be in there..

that clutch is not nearly as streetable as the stock one...
bean counters still get their way, even on higher end cars like the evo...
it's what happens when you're trying to hit your price range... you downgrade...

think about it...
there are some super easy things to do to your mach 1 to make power, or ways to free up power, and you wonder why the factory did it that way...
(like an over restrictive exhaust/intake)

this is the same...
they put a very driveable clutch in it...

you can upgrade to a very good clutch that's driveable, but you're paying for it...

But NOW you guys changed your arguemnt... the whole thing was that the EVO 8 is just as Fast as the LS1 STOCK, but if you swap in a new clutch, now it's not stock... so if you want to allow one mod each, throw some Drag Radials on the Firebird!

you guys are saying how the EVO is overated and that the WRX is much better. how so? i have 3 friends who owns each of those cars. a stock WRX is notorious for having a weak tranny. most of them can only run low 13's safely on that tranny. thats basically as fast as a stock EVO. there are a few who have gotten in the 12's but those are rare. now for the flagship STi. i also have a friend who owns one. and the STi and the EVO always race. and i'll tell you this, they take off identical, and their 1-3rd gears are identical. however once the STi hits 4th it will pull on the EVO by a car, and nothing more. and on the highway roll, if the EVO gets on it slighty before the STi, the STi will not catch up fast enough. if they punch it at the same time, the STi will very slowly walk the EVO. they really aren't that much different like most magazines have you believe they are. now heres the main advantage of the EVO. the Stock bottom end can handle 350-400whp. however on the semi open deck 2.5 boxer engine on the STi with cast iron pistons and steel rods many of them are known to blow at making only 400crank hp. so how is the STi soooo superior? i get a fair amount of exposure to both cars becasue both of those guys happen to be my best friends, and i always hear the STi owner complaining about how weak his engine is. of course the main culprit for the engines being so weak is a POS engine management system. once they change that with TURBO XS's U-TECH or COBB Tuning's ACESSPORT, the 2.5 should hold up better. but the strenght of both the EVO and the STi is not the same, and a modded evo will beat a modded STi. its been proven.

bottom line: i would never pick a WRX
if i had to leave the car stock i would pick the STi
if i were to mod, i would pick the EVO hands down.

P.S. both of my friends know how to drive their AWD's quit well, when i raced each one of them from a dig they will get usually a 3-4 car jump on me, and they don't bog off the line either. the STi usually sets his DCCD at 65% rear bias and thats what the STi launchs optimum at usually, putting down a 1.6 at the 60 ft mark, this was proven from a guy who went to the track trying all the different settings, and the STi even with that still can't beat the EVO at the launch ( meaning they launch equal off the line ) believe me there are many many people who can't drive these cars for shit. i just happen to be lucky to know a few of these people who actually can drive them. because i also know another person who have a EVO and the EVO was his first stick car. so yeah there are all kinds of EVO drivers out there. don't judge the cars speed if they cna't drive the car to its fullest potential.


Fact still remains when I've seen guys behind the wheel of them they just don't put it down! Sorry I'm not trying to insult your friends and their EVOs. You say you'd never choose the WRX well then don't seems pretty simple to me? Personally I like the WRX better and when it comes down to it the EVO is ugly.(JUST MY OPINION) You may think it's beautiful I don't. These kids get them, read in some import car mag how they run low 8's stock or watch 2F 2F and think WOW I'll eat Skylines with it! (Actually they wouldn't think bad of the all mighty Skyline or Supra) They think "I'll wax Porsches and Ferraris with it!" Then go out and don't put it down. Sorry it's just how it is. If you don't like the real world take it up with GOD.

Fact still remains when I've seen guys behind the wheel of them they just don't put it down! Sorry I'm not trying to insult your friends and their EVOs. You say you'd never choose the WRX well then don't seems pretty simple to me? Personally I like the WRX better and when it comes down to it the EVO is ugly.(JUST MY OPINION) You may think it's beautiful I don't. These kids get them, read in some import car mag how they run low 8's stock or watch 2F 2F and think WOW I'll eat Skylines with it! (Actually they wouldn't think bad of the all mighty Skyline or Supra) They think "I'll wax Porsches and Ferraris with it!" Then go out and don't put it down. Sorry it's just how it is. If you don't like the real world take it up with GOD.

you are also forgeting the most important thing. your down in florida where its hotter then it is up here in the north east. your probrably around 80-90 degrees right now and also your in the tropical region of the states where its very humid. we all know that turbo cars are very sensitive to heat and that any car is sensitive to humidity. the reason why the EVO's are running slower usualy in where your at is because of the humidity and the hotter then usual weather. for comparisons sake go to the track and see if you can see a EVo or a STi run at the same day. i will bet you that they will run very similar times. and i am not arguing which car looks better, i know looks is purely a subjective term. i also perfer the look of the STi over the EVO. but thats a different arguement all together. all i'm saying is how is a EVO overated when the STI makes much more power, more tq, have a 6 speed and is barely faster then a EVO? see what i'm trying to get to here? and my friends EVO did beat a porsche. it happend on a nice cold night but it was a non turbo 911. it was on a one lane street and the porsche kept on downshifting to 1st beasue it was a stop light drag, and my friend with the EVO just floored it in 2nd and was dead even with it. imagine what would've happend if he did downshift to first or even better yet, launched the thing. that porsche would've been toast.

But NOW you guys changed your arguemnt... the whole thing was that the EVO 8 is just as Fast as the LS1 STOCK, but if you swap in a new clutch, now it's not stock... so if you want to allow one mod each, throw some Drag Radials on the Firebird!

my argument didn't change.

i did say that if you wear out the stock clutch and replace it with a high-po one, you can launch hard all day long.

i'm still saying that with a non-worn stock clutch, you can run just as fast as the firebird...

i still have the proof in an earlier post, with a noted 12.9 second run from a stock evo...
so?

i'm sure we could get that guy to get us a timeslip if you really want it, but then you'd want even more evidence of the car being stock, and the slip not doctored.

it's getting old.

simply put, if you want to launch it hard all day, the stock clutch isn't sufficient.

but until it wears out, it can more than get you into low 13's, or even high 12's.

so i didn't change any argument at all...

you are also forgeting the most important thing. your down in florida where its hotter then it is up here in the north east. your probrably around 80-90 degrees right now and also your in the tropical region of the states where its very humid. we all know that turbo cars are very sensitive to heat and that any car is sensitive to humidity. the reason why the EVO's are running slower usualy in where your at is because of the humidity and the hotter then usual weather. for comparisons sake go to the track and see if you can see a EVo or a STi run at the same day. i will bet you that they will run very similar times. and i am not arguing which car looks better, i know looks is purely a subjective term. i also perfer the look of the STi over the EVO. but thats a different arguement all together. all i'm saying is how is a EVO overated when the STI makes much more power, more tq, have a 6 speed and is barely faster then a EVO? see what i'm trying to get to here? and my friends EVO did beat a porsche. it happend on a nice cold night but it was a non turbo 911. it was on a one lane street and the porsche kept on downshifting to 1st beasue it was a stop light drag, and my friend with the EVO just floored it in 2nd and was dead even with it. imagine what would've happend if he did downshift to first or even better yet, launched the thing. that porsche would've been toast.



I live in California, I guess that could effect things somehow. Hey kudos to your friend for beating a Porshe non turbo with his turbo EVO. Hot day, Cold day, new day, old day I said what I said I meant what I meant all EVO overrated 100% kidding a little Dr. Seuss for you there. Say what you want it just seems that you are telling me nothing can touch an EVO (with the exception of the Skyline of course) and I'm just saying the ones that I've seen are basically loosing in the streets. I'm not trying to upset you hell maybe where you live nothing can touch them (with the exception of the vaunted Skyline of course) I just haven't seen it yet.

I'm not doubting you, I just wanted to point that out.

no where have i said that nothing can touch an evo..
but overrated?
it's not.

joseph, thanks for seeing what i'm sayin

I live in California, I guess that could effect things somehow. Hey kudos to your friend for beating a Porshe non turbo with his turbo EVO. Hot day, Cold day, new day, old day I said what I said I meant what I meant all EVO overrated 100% kidding a little Dr. Seuss for you there. Say what you want it just seems that you are telling me nothing can touch an EVO (with the exception of the Skyline of course) and I'm just saying the ones that I've seen are basically loosing in the streets. I'm not trying to upset you hell maybe where you live nothing can touch them (with the exception of the vaunted Skyline of course) I just haven't seen it yet.

trust me we are aware of the EVO being very beatable. my friends are definitly scared to race a LS1 powered V8 in anything other then a stop light drag. we don't think our cars are gods, in fact we got quit use to the evos speed and is dying to make it faster. my friend with the evo raced a supra tt on the highway for the hell of it knowing he would lose, and guess what? even though the evo out acelerated the surpa to 100mph ( the evo had a slight head start ) the supra caught up liek the evo was standing still. he has never seen anything caught up to anything that hard before. but he won becuase there was alot of sweeps on that highway and lost him in the corners. but in a straightline race the supra would've murdered him. and he knows it too. so how does that make us think the EVO is god? just becuase we are defending doens't mean we think its the ultimate street car.

Question, can the Evo that ran 12.9 be a fluke? What was his 60'? Did he dump the clutch at near redline? I mean, it's not the norm for this car.

since i don't know the guy...
grab that link from a couple pages back, and sign on to evom.net, and then PM the guy...

did he dump the clutch near redline?
maybe...
i wouldn't be surprised, it's the best way to launch awd...

norm?
what, honestly, is the norm?
what a magazine posted for it?
what a bunch of evo owners posted for it?
put it (a stock ANYTHING) in the hands of someone who drag races a modified version of the car, and you'll see some amazing times...
i'm sure if you put one of the awd dsm drivers (from idra, etc) into a stock evo, after a couple runs you'd be seeing times you didn't think possible...

I know for a fact a stock evo will not touch 12's.. I have seen many race at the track, and raced against one the first time I took the mach to the track.. They are baddass cars, but they aren't going to run 12's stock. A 13.2 is the lowest I have seen a near stock evo run, and thats almost tearing the clutch and tranny out of the damn car on launch. When I raced against the guy that made a 13.5 pass(to my 13.08), he got the jump on me from the start due to awd, but I was constantly reeling him in, and passed him as I hit the end of 2nd gear. I didn't stop pulling on him until I crossed the line, so its not like an evo pulls really hard after launch. Its the launch that gets that car to the low 13's. I was almost certain that it would be hard to reel in the turbo car before we raced, but after seeing that I can pull on him without sweating, hell I have a different outlook on them now. The guy was very good behind the wheel, I posted yesterday that he shares a 69 Mach with his brother that runs low 11's. Anyways, EVO 8= nice car, but not faster than a stock Mach 1, no matter how you launch it. Sorry for the jabbering.

i would've sworn mach 1's only runs a high 13 and a mid 13 at best stock. i mean a stock cobra runs a mid to low 13 when the magazines test it and they run high 12's when regular people drive it. so how can a car that makes 70 less hp be only 2-3 tenths faster? if your mach1 really is that fast, then kudos to you, but i'm not sure if all mach 1's runs that time because a friend of my co worker owns a mach 1 and he run's high 13's at the track.

I honestly had a father and his son come out of the stands that day at the track and question me about my car running a flat 13.. They also said like yourself that they thought they ran high 13's.. I read somewere myself that they run high 13's, but I read a little farther, and thats the automatic Mach one. I forget which mag it is, but it stated that they ran a 13.09 @ 106.7. Thats almost the exact speed I ran, so my car is not a factory freak.. You are right, a stock mach vs a stock cobra, and the cobra takes the win by only 2-3, unless the cobra guy can't drive. The cobra guys at the track that day were running 12.6-12.9's, so a cobra is a mid 12 second car. Alot of people like to think they can barely run in the 12's which is untrue if you go to the track and watch a cobra owner that can drive. The biggest reason for the mach being able to keep up with the new cobra is the IRS(independant rear suspension). It kills the potential of the 390 ponies. The engine in the mach is amazingly strong, and also it has the ram air working for it too. I can drive the mach to a 1.9 60 foot time on stock tires, and those boys that day at the track with all those new cobras could only pull 2-2.1's. Just so you believe me, I am going to post a few timeslips if I can get my hands on a friends scanner. Since then, I put a full exhaust system and BBK x pipe on it, and underdrive pulleys, so I am certain I can break 12's, and quite possibly tie or beat some cobras.. Oh, and I love the bouncing girl with the big jugs!!! NICE!!

hahah thanks for the compliment on my sig. anyways i guess its possible since you don't seem like the type that would bullshit and your not hte type that puts other cars down. however i would be more interested in a link of a place where you see a 5 speed version running low 13's, becuase i never even know mach1 came in a auto version.

Go on machoneregistries.com and look under the thread that talks about the production numbers of the mach one. There are more 5 speeds than auto's of course, but there are for sure autos. When I was going to purchase mine, they had two, one was an auto, the other was 5 speed.. The auto runs a 13.8. The article I read states that even though its an auto, it will break loose bad shifting to second bone stock.. That surprised the heck out of me. Sorry I don't have time to post the exact link, but I am sure you will see for yourself if you check out that site. It also tells you how many of each color there are. I got the zinc yellow due to there only being 869 in the world.. gotta get back to work.. Later for now...

MACHTHIS i read early that u ran a 1.9 60' time. Did you have slicks on? because that is a really fast time for a RWD stock car. An LS1 cmaro or TA cant do that and i know for a fact that the LS1's camaro and TA's are faster

I am not sure were you are getting your facts, but yes I ran a 1.9 60 foot time on the goodyear eagles repeatedly. No slicks. And also, a LS1 or TA is not necessarily faster than a mach. I have seen LS1's not be able to break 13.5's. Now it can be a drivers race. And either one of those cars can hit the 60 foot mark at 1.9 on street tires with a driver that is capeable of launching a powerful car without f'ing it up.. I have no reason to lie.. The best race I have been in happened on the street between my friend Bill and I. he has a WS6, and we ran side by side all the way through about 110, then shut them down.. You are underrestimating Machs. Go drive one, they are more than the rumors you have heard obviously..I think my worst pass on the quarter track was 13.3??, and thats when I tried to launch from 1000 RPM instead of my normal 1500.. So of course, I bogged a little, and then got into the gas too hard and spun a little. I still passed the finish line at 106, but the 60 on that specific run sucked..Just go onto Mach1registries.com and take a look for yourself. They are a good group of guys, and they provide proof of flat 13's, and also some are showing 12.8-12.9ish passes.. Guess they are better drivers than me.... Thanks for reading..

So your telling me you can keep up with me in the launch. Because i run 1.9 60' time. Best i got so far is a 1.86 60' time.

Well, since you can cut a 1.86 in the 60, then no I cannot. I have three timeslips I keep in my car that all have 1.9? on them, and the 1320 ranges from the best being 13.08 to the worst being 13.3. No reason to try to call my bluff, I didn't state my times so I could defend them with 1 person that is questioning me. I previously had a 2003 stang GT and I could pull a 2.0 with it completely stock.. I have been drag racing for years, so that could help some. And the Machs suspension is way better for the strip than the gt.. Just do some research rather than make me get back on this addictive forum crap while at work...lol..

you're telling us for a fact that a stock evo can't hit 12's?

have you talked to the guy that posted the 12.9 on evom.net, or are you just ignoring that for now?

seriously.

it may not be the norm, but he did it, didn't he?

have you asked people like dave buschur what their evo could hit stock if really beat on?

doubt it.

ask some awd dsm tuners what they got a stock evo down to, or what a pro racer could get it down to.

you can't say that there's no way it will get into the 12's, especially b/c you can't back it up.
your only backing is that the people YOU have seen haven't done it...

but have you seen the guy that did it on evom.net?

or asked other people who have? hmmm

again, a thread about running 12's in an evo...
stock.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=70257

Here, let me restate this.. I have beat an evo, I have seen at least 2 or 3 others all run consistent mid 13's, and also saw one hit a 13.2 or something similar.. I have no problem beating them, so I don't care really what they run. The problem I have with them is I can pull on them after take off, running any speed, so therefore, its impossible to get beat by one in my mach unless I stall. I am not crazy about evos, sti's, and all those cars similar to those. I don't hate any car, but I do hate when I get on a new forum and all they want to do is argue. I am not going to argue, I have beat one, and the time on my slips beat any times I have ever seen a stock evo or sti run. I am finished with this forum, and I will not return to this site due to immaturity. I came on here to learn about cars, not to have to back mine up to people that know nothing about them. Good luck in all your races, and drive safe.. I'm out..

Stock for stock the evo has a slight cornering advantage mainly due to it's 4 wheel drive and lighter weight. When prep for the track, I'm inclined to say that a Fbody will beat up on an EVO. There are ton's of guys out there road racing thier firebirds and camaros. And although both cars have tremendous aftermarket support, here in the US, there are alot more camaro's that carve corners. With good suspension work, a camaro will turn as fast as a Z06.

The EVO has slightly better brakes, stopping in 115ft compared to the 120ft of a camaro. But more of that is weight. With aftermarket brake kits, it is going to be very hard to tell who will stop better. Especially if aftermarket Z06 parts are used on the camaro.

Stock for stock, an LS1 will be faster. In a quarter mile only slightly faster, but on road race course, alot faster. The EVO launches hard, but from then on the LS1 has a 60 hp advantage and a wider powerband. In a quarter mile, the EVO will take the lead, then midway, the 2 cars will be dead even. Eventually the LS1 will pull ahead. On a race course, say goodbye to the launch advantage. The 4wd will put down power slightly better coming out of corners, but the camaro can run freaking wide race rubber on the back, that really helps it in laying down power.

I prefer the LS1, simply because the engine has more potential than the 4G63. The LS1 can be resleeve to 427 cubic inches or roughly 7.0 liters. The block will take C5R heads designed purely for racing. This roughly translates to around 600horses without a turbo. (PS I think the may 2003 issue of GM hitech performance had a camaro with such an engine, check it out yourself if you want). The block can possibly do over 1000 with a supercharger. The 4G63 as good as it is, will not produce that much power reliably. I don't think it can do more than around 600hp on pump gas. The ones built up to 800-900hp were quarter mile machines, they would overheat if you ever tried to take them to a road race. It would lose power anyways as it gets heated. The LS1 built to C5R specs however, will be very much like the C5R engine they used in the 24 hour le mans. A monster of an engine that's very powerful, very strong, very durable.

turbo charged vehicles ar very noticeably slower when hot outside simply from the hot air swooping through the intercooler. the evo-8 has been run at 13.1 more th an once its proven that it can hit those times. a evo-8 would definately be a lot faster on a cool day or at night, definatley. a ls1 transam is a 13.5 sec car on average, this i've seen plenty of. so on a hot day at low alttitude the ls1 should have the advantage, but they would both be very close drivers. race on a cool day or night the advantage goes to the evo-8 still a drivers race.

you're leaving b/c we're arguing?
this is a car comparison forum.
what do you expect to happen in here?
amazing.

i'm not saying that you can't beat an evo. you beat an evo where you live.

what happens when you run someone with more driving skill in their stock evo, and they out run you?
are you going to sit back and claim that it's modded?

come on...
seriously.
so you race people who run their evo's around 13.3.
there are people who can run them stock faster than that, and into the 12's.

why is that so difficult to understand?

it's all about driver.

realize that. it's what you came to do, learn.

i'm giving you a lesson... read up... ;)

Stock for stock in a drag race, it will go to whoever has better tires. Based on factory times though, the LS1 is faster.

Stock for stock, an LS1 will be faster. In a quarter mile only slightly faster, but on road race course, alot faster. The EVO launches hard, but from then on the LS1 has a 60 hp advantage and a wider powerband. In a quarter mile, the EVO will take the lead, then midway, the 2 cars will be dead even. Eventually the LS1 will pull ahead. On a race course, say goodbye to the launch advantage. The 4wd will put down power slightly better coming out of corners, but the camaro can run freaking wide race rubber on the back, that really helps it in laying down power.
the ls1 is going to better on a road course?
stock?
you sure about that?

the evo is a handling machine.
end of story.

i'm interested as to how you can get through 10 pages of people agreeing (more or less) that the evo is mildly slower in the 1/4, but would eat the road course...

and now you're disagreeing? hmm... any reason (a good reason) for why you'd think an F-body would handle better than an evo on a road course?

60hp advantage is nothing if you can't attack corners as aggressively as an evo...

think about it.
it's not just the car with more power (on a road course) that wins the race.
it's the car with the highest average speed.
that's achieved through handling ability, which is where the evo outshines the f body by a long shot.

you're leaving b/c we're arguing?
this is a car comparison forum.
what do you expect to happen in here?
amazing.

Isnt it just? Oh well, some people get offended if you dont take their view on something... nm ;)

jay, i know what you're saying 100%...

stock times are over/under rated depending...
it comes down to real world testing.

i'm sure you could get a pro racer into each car, and get them both far quicker than the factory times...

that's why this is a real world question, not a factory/magazine times question...

hehe.. That wasnt a sarcastic comment or aimed at you if thats the way you understood it. I just find it funny when people join the forum and get irritated that in the CAR COMPARISONS FORUM, someone has a different opinion. Shame the newb left, anyway, its his loss ;)

(i know it wasn't aimed at me... but i know that i'm part of the group that gets imbedded in these threads...)

he's doing what he told us he didn't want...
he got just as heated as we/i did, but we shouldn't do that...

what's good for the goose... ;)

at any rate, i think this comparo has done well, people just don't want to believe that an evo can do what i've proved... (1/4 mile AND handling wise)

I wanted to see those time-slips because most of the camaro guys have smoked mach 1s by a few lengths, now he is saying he can pretty much beat an LS1... that is kinda fishy to me.

Oh, and about what "norm" is, I don't want to say average, with means 50% higher 50% lower, but is like "standard". You can't say any car, LS1 or Evo is a 12 sec car becasue of a few instances. Really good drivers, like ones who get Mach 1s under 13.1, and factory freaks can happen. I'm saying, the Standard time for an Evo 8 is not 12.9. Nor is it for the LS1 F-body (Vette yes) but they both have hit it. I still think that the standard time for the LS1 is a little higher than the Evo.

its all about the driver buddy

you say standard time is higher, meaning the ls1 is faster, right?
so it's "lower", numerically...
i don't doubt that.

but people have doubted that an evo could get into the 12's stock... which can be done.
just like an ls1 can.

agreed?

You don't understand how close the two cars are in terms of handling abilitites. A fbody handles alot better than most people give credit for. A EVO does not handle as well as a people think. In terms of handling a Z06 or a miata for that matter would beat a EVO. The EVO's strong point is the 4 wheel drive which lets it come out of corners fast. A camaro, has the similar ability to blast out of corners with its massive torque if it is on race rubber. Stock camaros typically autocross only about half a second slower than an EVO. A road race course is fast, power becomes more of a factor because there will be places in which you can floor it for more than just a second or two. The camaro's power is likely to put it over the EVO.

i don't?
an evo doesn't have the handling that everyone thinks it does?
are you serious?
a miata would outhandle an evo?
do you have proof of these things?
seriously.

"if it is on race rubber"
doesn't sound like stock vs. stock does it?

stock camaros autocross about a 1/2 second slower than evos?

what kind of driver skills are we talking about?

we're not talking about camaros in this thread.
look at the title (not like it matters, it's the same car).

regardless.
you think an evo isn't a road course car?

you should look into handling tests that have been done by magazines (generally with professional drivers).
i've never seen a camaro handling in the same arena as an evo.

a zo6 or a miata? those are almost in the same range of cars and handling.

a zo6 can pull over 1 g on the skidpad, i'd hope it outhandles an evo.

don't try to compare an F body to a zo6 though. a stock c5 can outhandle an F body. easily.
and i'd put an evo (at least) on the same level as a c5, if not a bit higher.

Pff... you can believe what you want to believe. Quote your magazines and whatever. I don't care. I'm telling you what I see typically when I autocross. In my class, STU - a street tire class, I generally run about half a second slower than the two other EVOs running locally in my class. My car is very near stock although the rules allow me to do quite a bit to the car. The other camaro drivers on race rubber typically run about the same times as the EVOs and the STi, depending on who the driver is and how skilled they are. You won't believe me when I say this, but there is maybe only about less than 10 second during a full 60 second course in which I can have the gas pedal all the way down. On a fast road course, the time that a car can flat out accelerate is greater. Believe whatever the heck you want, I don't think i'm gonna argue something so stupid.

PS. If you ever go out onto a track with lame street tires designed for the rain. You are an idiot. You'll either go slowly around the track or really fast into a wall.

when YOU autocross.
exactly.
what's the skill level of the owners of the cars?

have you taken that into account, at all?

The other camaro drivers on race rubber typically run about the same times as the EVOs and the STi, depending on who the driver is and how skilled they are.
sounds like race rubber vs. stock tired evo/sti, huh?

if you ever go out onto a track with lame street tires?
really?
were you aware that the entire speed touring car series (until just this year) ran on street tires? toyo proxes t1-s tires?
they must be lame people, those professional race car drivers.

you're not gonna argue something so stupid?
what's so stupid here?
seriously.

have you ever been on a road course? ever?

let's think about how the audi rs6 (previously they were using s4's) in the speed GT series were constantly winning races with awd, less hp, and more weight than the rwd vettes, etc. that they were racing...

back to stock.

stock tires, stock EVERYTHING.

prove that two accomplished drivers in stock Fbody/evo aren't at the least even.

again, since you apparently have NEVER driven an awd car, let alone on a road course, you don't know.

sorry.

This is stupid, I'm ignoring you. It's obvious you've never even been to an autocross. Or else I wouldn't have to explain to you that even cars in stock class are allowed to use race rubber. The camaros on race rubber typically run even with the EVOs on race rubber. I run in street tire class to save money from having to buy tires all the time. Stock everything, the camaro is slower on a autoX course because it's wider and has to take a longer line, plus it can't use its power to the fullest. On an actualy race course like Buttonwillow (which I'll be at once in a blue moon), I still think a camaro is faster.

I am ignoring you from this point forward. I should just make it my policy to advoid people who put other ppl's cars in their signatures like it was their own. It's the first sign of lameness and ignorance.

PS. T1 are very differetn than stock all seasons

again, a thread about running 12's in an evo...
stock.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=70257

Well is sure is a thread about running 12's. I've read through the entire thing and even some of the other members there are quesitioning this guys legitamcy. He is claiming a 12.949 in the quarter, yet for over two weeks he hasn't posted any slips (and a video as he has also mentioned) as he said he would. Everybody is calling him out on this run, and he has yet to give proof on it. I will also stand skeptical of it until he can provide some slips or this video he claims to have. Their are some members even pulling the bs flag on him. So how can you be using that thread as an example of an Evo hitting 12s stock? I don't believe this guys run more than the next. Especially when he said he was running 12.9s all day. Weren't you at all skeptical about it? I could see Evo's hitting low 13s, but 12's? I can only understand why people here are also questioning that. The Evo is rated a bit over 270hp weighting 3260lbs or so. Thats like detuning a C5 Vette over 70hp that would normally run 13s flat and have it achieve the same results?? (with the exception of awd).

Well if the guy did it, then I'll give him plenty of props. Until then, I am going to have to pull the bs flag on him just as some other Evo members are also doing.

i realized (after posting it) that the thread that is posted was sketchy..

i've never been to an autocross?

you've totally missed the F'ing point.

race rubber is NOT STOCK, is it?

exactly.
so am i surprised that an F body on race rubber can hang with an evo/sti on stock tires? gee. why would that surprise me?

you're ignoring me?

go for it.

you just proved that your point doesn't make sense.

On an actualy race course like Buttonwillow (which I'll be at once in a blue moon), I still think a camaro is faster.

no proof, just what you think.

hmm...

people who put other people's cars in their sigs should be ignored?

you should start ignoring more than 1/2 the people on this site, including a good portion of the moderators.

what kind of picture i have in my sig has NOTHING TO DO WITH MY INTELLIGENCE, but if that helps you sleep, go for it.

do you have any times for a stock evo running against a stock F body (stock tires, on a road course)?

no.
anything else?

www.bushurracing.com, www.worksrally.com -- Both of these are Evo tuners, both have cars with approx 10-15k invested running mid to low 11's on race gas.

5k invested into Stage 2 upgrades on street tires and 94 pump yields mid to low 12's in the quarter.

Skidpads are generally nearly 1g stock and greater with suspension upgrades, ie Tein coilovers, R compounds, etc.

Depending on the drivers, the Evo 8's down here in SCCA southwest run circles around the F bodies, but, they arn't in the same class so its irrelevant.

Lets take a look at the cars that are being compared. Ok on one hand their is an Evo8. AWD, sophisticated suspension, short wheelbase, pretty light for an AWD car. Then you have a T/A. RWD, WS6 suspension is a good setup for the car, lots of hp/torque, long wheelbase, wide, and a bit on the heavier side. First we pull the 1320s in and they seem to be fairly even (all about the driver). Now we roll to an autox, well which one has the better setup? As Jabberwocky pointed out, T/A's are wide and long, not the setup you want for this application. There is hardly anywhere to use its power advantage, so its seems pretty obvious what the most likely outcome will be. Now we go to a road coarse, much different than autox. Bigger track, actual straights, and a variation of all kinds of turns. There is no upper hand for either car on this coarse, you need a balance of power and handling to achieve the fastest times. Depending on the amount of straights and turns IMO will determine who will win. Their isn't much a T/A can do when it comes to going through the twists but try and at least say up with the Evo assuming their stock. But when the straight hits, the T/A is going to pull (almost like a cat/mouse game). I don't see how it could be clear to anyone as to which would actually win on a road coarse since nobody knows. Once again, its pretty much an even battle.

I have always known Ram Air LS1 T/A's to be low 13 second cars. Their ram air system is setup very well and helps to add on to the ET more than what the Camaro's setup is capable of. IMO, a LS1 RamAir T/A will consistently outrun a Evo in the quarter (maybe not every time, but I believe the average will be in the T/A's favor).

in the 1320 i belive 7 out of ten runs the trans am will win. as for handling, why are you guys even argueing the fact, every one who REALLY know about cars know the t/a cannot handle as well as the evo-8. i understand where the guy is coming from because the camaro and t/a are highly underestimated when comes to handling, there not bad, not as bad as most people make them seem just cause there background is known for the straights. but it can't run with and evo-8 or an sti, there pure bred rally cars. thats what they are, rally cars on the street. and the skidpad doesnt have everything to do with the handling, just as hp doesn't have everything to do with speed. but if you drove both cars on a track on some twisties you would then know why we say the t/a is not in competition. this is my 2 cents. or three, hell lets just make it a cool nickel:)

i understand your points, kurt...
but if the evo is just as even in the 1/4, why would it not keep up out of a corner with the f body?
it's not like it's killing it by 1/2 a second in the 1/4...

if they're even, they'll both jump out of the corner just as hard, if not harder in the evo, as you can really keep it boiling in a corner with awd, versus trying to keep your rwd tail in check.

if the evo is a better handler, and 1/4 times are close, i'm not sure where the f body is going to just walk away from the evo on the straights... especially since you can get into the gas harder in an evo, which has shorter gearing than the f body (evo's have a gear limited top speed of 156 or so, and i don't think you're going to hit that in a stock f body/evo on most road courses in the states, or anywhere, really)...

so where's the competition on a road course?

They are not pure bred rally cars, the rally car is different from what they sell. It's a myth that is perpertuated by the makers to sell more cars. And until they start selling the Japanese version. The US EVO8 is still lacking the active center differential, a 6 close ratio six speed, and active yaw control. It's a great car, but the Japanese one is better.

A fbody is harder to drive fast. Most people don't really realize this. Mistakes are punished more so because the suspension doesn't recover like an IRS would. Plus the feedback isn't that great either.

Lets not forget the LT4 camaro, 330 hp and 335 lb/ft of torque

Track results between the two cars will be grip dependant. If it rains, evo gets the upper hand. If it's dry and both cars are not on all super cheap all seasons, I vote for the camaro. Go one step up to race rubber, and put both on Victoracers or Hoosiers on both cars and I'd bet money on the camaro. There is just more room to use the power advatage in race course. A 60 hp advantage and more torque is significant. And even though the lancer is 200 pound lighter, the faster you go, the more drag becomes a factor as oppose to just weight.

put them on stock tires.
end of story.
the tires they came off the assembly line with.

the evo runs advans (yoko) designed for grip vs. all weather.
the same can be said for the F body, which doesn't come with crappy tires stock.

put both cars on hoosiers and you'd pick the f body (you keep saying camaro, i'd suggest noting that the thread is about a firebird, which is irrelevant, b/c they're the same car, but... )

the evo's got sick grip already.
put grippIER tires on it, and you don't think it'd get even sicker?
stock suspension, you can corner for corner still outhandle an f body with equal tires.

one more thing...
you noted drag as an issue in high speed situations.
on a racetrack, where your gearing is really what gets you up to those speeds, the evo is with the advantage, b/c of its shorter gears, which will make up for the drag issues (what's the Cd for both cars, i bet the evo's isn't as bad as you think it is)...

keep this in mind:
the boxy mk3 jetta (in the speed touring car series) had the highest speed down the fastest straight in the entire series, and this is a single car team jetta, that looks like a box, reaching higher speeds than bmw's and integras (you know, the cars that dominate the series...)
so you should consider the Cd of each car before assuming the evo has more of a drag issue

the same is true in the NHRA
some of the older, boxier car bodies were found to be more aerodynamic than some of the newer cars...
i remember the F body being one of those examples, actually...

i understand your points, kurt...
but if the evo is just as even in the 1/4, why would it not keep up out of a corner with the f body?
it's not like it's killing it by 1/2 a second in the 1/4...

if they're even, they'll both jump out of the corner just as hard, if not harder in the evo, as you can really keep it boiling in a corner with awd, versus trying to keep your rwd tail in check.

if the evo is a better handler, and 1/4 times are close, i'm not sure where the f body is going to just walk away from the evo on the straights... especially since you can get into the gas harder in an evo, which has shorter gearing than the f body (evo's have a gear limited top speed of 156 or so, and i don't think you're going to hit that in a stock f body/evo on most road courses in the states, or anywhere, really)...

so where's the competition on a road course?

The ET times in the quarter determine how fast a car is going at the end of the average of the last 66' if I remember correctly. An Evo typically (from times and slips i've seen) ET in the low 100s (102-104s in that range). The T/A's will typically have a trap speed in the high 100s (107-109s). In most cases this represents that the car with the higher trap is already pulling on the car with a lower trap. When you bring this into a road coarse, lauches don't matter. The T/A will be pulling at speed vs the Evo. Out of a corner the Evo in most cases will have the faster exiting speed. If there is a straight following, that is an oppurtunity for the TA to catch up. Like I said before, a cat/mouse game. Now if you wanted to switch you tires (which IMO should be done so you don't ruin your daily driving tires), you could do so and notice a good difference in times for both cars. If you can't however, then just expect to be buying tires at a more frequent pace than what normal daily usage would permit.

BTW Jabber, if you ever bring your car to ButtonWillow, I'm interesting in seeing how well you fared on it. Plz, post some results in the future if you ever do it. :smile:

Anyone even paying attention to the post with the links I made? Plenty of time slips and ETA's on those sites. Also note, invest 5 grand into an Evo 8, and you have something that a F body can't even touch quarter mile or otherwise without significant amounts of money dumped into it.

edit -- not to mention, an Evo 8 will outright slap around either the T/A or the Camaro in the 1320 and a roadcourse on equal footing.

Anyone even paying attention to the post with the links I made? Plenty of time slips and ETA's on those sites. Also note, invest 5 grand into an Evo 8, and you have something that a F body can't even touch quarter mile or otherwise without significant amounts of money dumped into it.

edit -- not to mention, an Evo 8 will outright slap around either the T/A or the Camaro in the 1320 and a roadcourse on equal footing.

Sorry to tell you this but for 5 grand an Fbody will go just as fat friend. Actually maybe for less. Your name alone implies your bias! When you are biased towards one side there are always stats, figures, facts, and personal accounts to back up your beliefs, the same could be said of anyone biased towards the Fbody if they look hard enough they'll find the facts, stats, figures, and personal accounts to back up there arguements as well. Sorry to say but 1/4 mile for the most part belongs to the Fbody. However I'd give the track to the EVO hands down!

Anyone even paying attention to the post with the links I made? Plenty of time slips and ETA's on those sites. Also note, invest 5 grand into an Evo 8, and you have something that a F body can't even touch quarter mile or otherwise without significant amounts of money dumped into it.

edit -- not to mention, an Evo 8 will outright slap around either the T/A or the Camaro in the 1320 and a roadcourse on equal footing.


Putting 5k into an evo and only getting mid to low 12's...That's pathetic.
You could easily get an ls1 into at least low 11's with 5k.

wait so this is an inline 4 against a v8? HAHAH atleast compare on the same level if you're going to bash on the evo, try making all the american inline 4 engines make 300+ horsepower easily, and stop talkin about how the v8 can beat the inline 4 please

wait so this is an inline 4 against a v8? HAHAH atleast compare on the same level if you're going to bash on the evo, try making all the american inline 4 engines make 300+ horsepower easily, and stop talkin about how the v8 can beat the inline 4 please


Then don't ever bring up a 4 beating and 8. Why is it always My 4 can kick all V-8 ass then when it doesn't happen it's "well it was a V-8, with twice as many cylinders etc." There are some great 4cylinder engines out there, with the correct combo can hold with V-8s so lets not say we shouldn't compare them. If I drive one and someone pulls up with the other I'm not going to back down and say wait a minute we can't compare these.

Then don't ever bring up a 4 beating and 8. Why is it always My 4 can kick all V-8 ass then when it doesn't happen it's "well it was a V-8, with twice as many cylinders etc." There are some great 4cylinder engines out there, with the correct combo can hold with V-8s so lets not say we shouldn't compare them. If I drive one and someone pulls up with the other I'm not going to back down and say wait a minute we can't compare these.
where did i say my 4 can beat your 8? please enlighten me on that, i think your getting angery over little reasons like talking to people online, just don't let it get to you, and everyones killing eachother over this forum, seriously lol cool it people

where did i say my 4 can beat your 8? please enlighten me on that, i think your getting angery over little reasons like talking to people online, just don't let it get to you, and everyones killing eachother over this forum, seriously lol cool it people

Didn't claim you said that, and I can honestly say I'm not angry. I said there are plenty of impoert car guys who brag about there 4 cylinders whooping everything, and when it doesn't happen they make excuses. I also said there are some great 4cylinder engines out there. I believe I did say that if I had one or the other and someone in the opposite challenged me I wouldn't back down. I'm trying hard to find the emotion of anger within' my post however it just doesn't seem to be there?

Didn't claim you said that, and I can honestly say I'm not angry. I said there are plenty of impoert car guys who brag about there 4 cylinders whooping everything, and when it doesn't happen they make excuses. I also said there are some great 4cylinder engines out there. I believe I did say that if I had one or the other and someone in the opposite challenged me I wouldn't back down. I'm trying hard to find the emotion of anger within' my post however it just doesn't seem to be there?

lol i see, well im not into racing or anything (mostly because of my car, and my lack of cash) but im pretty sure if i had like a 240 with an sr20 or an evo/sti i would be emotionally linked into this thread (as most of the people are) heh anyways have fun guys gtg for now

wait so this is an inline 4 against a v8? HAHAH atleast compare on the same level if you're going to bash on the evo, try making all the american inline 4 engines make 300+ horsepower easily, and stop talkin about how the v8 can beat the inline 4 please

You could get that much hp out of an american inline four, the same way the evo get's it, a turbo......take the turbo off and it pobably only makes 150-200hp...so what's your point?

You could get that much hp out of an american inline four, the same way the evo get's it, a turbo......take the turbo off and it pobably only makes 150-200hp...so what's your point?
ok give me a list of american cars that have inline 4s that have a stock turbo, having trouble thinking?

also without the turbo an evo probably barely makes 140hp, but its the potential the engine has being stock, you can slap on any turbo that gives under 500hp and it'll still run good for years to come, have fun making an american car last as long as the average honda civic, with out without a turbo it won't, and its proven, japanese cars are more reliable than american cars, its been proven for years, thats why american cars devalue alot instantly the moment u buy it, while japanese cars keep their value high, providing high resale. american cars can't last long with or without turbo

ok give me a list of american cars that have inline 4s that have a stock turbo, having trouble thinking?

also without the turbo an evo probably barely makes 140hp, but its the potential the engine has being stock, you can slap on any turbo that gives under 500hp and it'll still run good for years to come, have fun making an american car last as long as the average honda civic, with out without a turbo it won't, and its proven, japanese cars are more reliable than american cars, its been proven for years, thats why american cars devalue alot instantly the moment u buy it, while japanese cars keep their value high, providing high resale. american cars can't last long with or without turbo

Say what? Have you ever heard of the SRT-4? Just say your biased and we'll leave the rest of your posts with that in mind. I'm not bashing the Evo or any Japanese car in that respect because i do respect them. Just give your post some thought before you rant off. Dodge/Chrysler has a past for putting turbos in their cars. Quit being so closed minded. You have no idea how much work there is involved to get 500hp out of any car.

I do believe that from Evo8's postings that you can get quite a bit of extra's with 5k invested in an Evo. LS1 T/A's can be done the same way. Lingenfelter (as an example) can tune a T/A with parts/labor with close to 500hp for less than 6-8k and your in upper 11s all with a 2yr warranty backing. Although I'm not quite sure what you mean about equal footing? Are you suggesting the same level of mods, grip, suspension work, or a bit of everything? I would think they would be pretty equal on equal footing.

exactly.
consider who had the first turbo 4's...

dodge had them in the old daytonas, omni glh's...
ask polygon about his lebaron that would kill most anything he came up against...

ever see the video of the 10 second dodge caravan?
had a turbo 2.4 in it...

kurt...
your note on the et is well viewed...
and on a road course, i think we're on the same track...
long straights, and the F body would, at the least, hang with the evo...
i guess it depends on what kind of corners are on the track, but on stock tires, i'm still going to give the edge to the evo, a proven track machine... (not that the f body isn't, but in stock form... hmm...)

ok give me a list of american cars that have inline 4s that have a stock turbo, having trouble thinking?

also without the turbo an evo probably barely makes 140hp, but its the potential the engine has being stock, you can slap on any turbo that gives under 500hp and it'll still run good for years to come, have fun making an american car last as long as the average honda civic, with out without a turbo it won't, and its proven, japanese cars are more reliable than american cars, its been proven for years, thats why american cars devalue alot instantly the moment u buy it, while japanese cars keep their value high, providing high resale. american cars can't last long with or without turbo

First off I never said they had turbos, I said if they did. American motors can handle turbos too and run well, I've seen it done.

Your quote about american cars not being able to last as long as japanese cars....It doesn't matter what kind of car you have, as long as you maintain a car it will last a very long time. I know a guy back home who has a ford ecoline van that he travels in and it has over 750,000 miles on it. All he does is keep up on maintenance. Japanese cars do have higher resale value, but that is it...Either of them will last just as long if you maintain them.

what does that have to do with the comparo, though?
(no offense)

but this is going to turn into a stupid ass imports vs. domestics thread, which is pointless.

we're comparing performance of 2 vehicles.
end of story.
they've both got strengths and weaknesses, which we've all hit on.

why do we have to get into the "american cars are crap" BS?
seriously.
why resort to something as childish as that?

Sorry to tell you this but for 5 grand an Fbody will go just as fat friend. Actually maybe for less. Your name alone implies your bias! When you are biased towards one side there are always stats, figures, facts, and personal accounts to back up your beliefs, the same could be said of anyone biased towards the Fbody if they look hard enough they'll find the facts, stats, figures, and personal accounts to back up there arguements as well. Sorry to say but 1/4 mile for the most part belongs to the Fbody. However I'd give the track to the EVO hands down!

Sorry to tell you, but it doesn't take 5 grand to get an EVO in the 12s, try more like less that $2,000. $5,000 easily puts the EVO in the 11s. Don't get me wrong, I have respect for the Camaros and Mustangs of the world just like anybody else, but don't be ignorant to the fact that the EVO is also an awesome car to tune. Besides the Camaro and Mustang are entirely different cars, only thing in common is price, if you compare the all around performance of the EVO, the Camaro and Mustangs are no match (unless your talking Saleen or etc.). The difference is the EVO is just at home on the drag strip as it is on the race track, or on the street racing scene in the United States and the rest of the world. Even in Russia they race EVOs on frozen lakes, and in the deserts of South Africa, the point is, when ever, where ever, and how ever, you want to race the EVO is ready and willing. Let's not forget the EVO has barely been around in the USA and the world for like alittle over 10 years, the Camaros and Mustangs have been around for much longer than that. So if the EVO makes it through Mitsubishi's problems, it will only get better. Also prepare for the EVO MR which costs under $35,000 and does the 1/4 Mile in the 12s stock. For your enjoyment here is a some videos of EVOs in action check it out-

http://features.evolutionm.net/article/lanevo/39/4

Ok... last time I checked, Mitsubishi was not the most reliable car on the road... just ask any DSM owner. I second the notion that Japanese being more reliable is a myth, and any car can go long /w a little TLC. Resale value... oh yea, that new Kia for $8,995 is going to have great resale value!
I thought we pretty much acknowledged the fact that Evo's don't run 12s stock!

500 bucks worth of NOS and some drag radials gets the LT1 powered fbody into the early 12s - deep 11s.

EVOs are pretty good cars though. During a rainy autocross EVOs and WRXs seem to run really good times compared to everyone else. These 2 cars each clearly have things they each are better at.

I need a digital camera so I can take pictures and post. But I had to blow a big chunk on tires last month. Test days are expensive and non competitive. I'll be the first to admit that neither my car nor I are competitive enough ... Yet. :naughty:

This car camparison forums seems kinda bland. Every thread kinda looks the same. :screwy: What other forums are cool on this site, there are so freaking many.

Ok... last time I checked, Mitsubishi was not the most reliable car on the road... just ask any DSM owner. I second the notion that Japanese being more reliable is a myth, and any car can go long /w a little TLC. Resale value... oh yea, that new Kia for $8,995 is going to have great resale value!
I thought we pretty much acknowledged the fact that Evo's don't run 12s stock!

First off that whole $500 Nos argument is not good, because you could do the same thing to the EVO and get the same results, so what's your point?
Actually yeah there are EVOs that do run 12s stock, ever heard of the EVO MR or EVO FQ300 or EVO FQ330 (do some research). The EVO just like the Camaro has different variations of the model, for example you have the Base Camaro, Camaro Z28, and then the Camaro Z28 SS. The EVO also has different variations, which include the Base EVO, EVO MR, EVO FQ300, and then the EVO FQ330. The EVO MR, EVO FQ300, and EVO FQ330 all will run the 1/4 mile in the 12s stock, so really you haven't established anything yet. Pit the highest version of the EVO, the EVO FQ330 against the highest version of the Camaro, the Camaro SS and there is absolutely no competetion.
So in the USA the EVO that is for sell is pretty much the base version and it's with out it's 6-Speed and is down on horsepower to the Japanese and Euro version, yet it still is capable of low 13 second passes. But you are right, the EVO on sell in the USA right at this moment will not run 12s stock (not counting the occassional factory freaks) but that is until the EVO MR goes on sale in the Fall, and then yes the EVO will run 12s stock. The EVO MR will be a much better all around EVO, with it's lighter weight, more power and torque, 6-Speed Transmission (which will hold much more power and be more durable than the problematic 5-speed on the EVOs now), and have a revised suspension system that will turn the EVO into not one of the best handling cars for under $50,000, but the best (Elise will be up there with it too).
Your right about Mitsubishi realibilty, Mitsubishi is not the most realible, but then again neither is GMC. But I hope this discussion doesn't turn into an issue of realibility and re-sale value and get away from what matters and that's performance. The EVO on sale right now is awesome, it's all around performance can not be touched by the Mustang or Camaro. The EVO MR will be even better, and it's all around performance will not be touched by any car costing under $50,000 (except for the Elise and C6 Corvette). I have no interest in downing the Camaro or Mustang, for I also believe those two cars are awesome in their own respect, but also realize the potential and performance of the EVO and eventuall EVO MR, do not be ignorant just because you like the Camaro more than the EVO.

lol u guys use the word "NOS" that's a f&f term NOS is a brand N02 is the correct term or Nitrous Oxide.

First off that whole $500 Nos argument is not good, because you could do the same thing to the EVO and get the same results

Werd on that, although I'm a firm disbeliever of any type of nitrous setup in any vehicle thats driven daily. One thing I do not understand is where does an Evo MR etc. have anything to do in a comparision involving a Evo8? Sounds irrelavant as does the base and Z28 trims. Yet I still didn't understand why they put in the 5speed vs. the 6 (cost?). Also if you look at any car that gets imported to the US, its always a watered down version of what the origin versions are. My guess is the low octane fuel, and emissions. The Evo8 still is an incredibly good handling car for the cost. Their almost in their own league with a few others. I haven't had the privaledge in riding in one yet (very rare where I live...very), but I can guarantee I will have my seat belt on along with grasping the door handle :smile: . One question I do have is that can you get an Evo8 easily into the 11's with only 5K? Maybe if you diy? What kind of psi can the stock turbos go up to? I would think their would require a lot of upgrades to be running 11s.

with 5 grand i can run 11's, upgrade the turbo fuel system etc... and there ya go, high 11's aren't that hard with 5 grand if you know what your doing. isn't the evo-8 the 4g63t?

This car camparison forums seems kinda bland. Every thread kinda looks the same.
Yeah... they're all car comparisons.... who'd have thought :rolleyes:

weird how that happens...
the 500 dollar nitrous idea is lame.

we're talking stock.
end of story.

put that same kit on the evo with slicks...
oh yeah, it's just as quick.

next?

this is getting old.

not much new to talk about, except going blatantly off the topic for the sake of proving a car is better.

oh...
reliability?
dsm's weren't seen as uber reliable.
is this a DSM?
no.
it's a car that's had a long history, without much "reliability" issue, in the rest of the world.

you can't say that an evo is not reliable b/c dsm's weren't.

the main issue in high power dsm's was crankwalk, which is a USDM issue. so there's not problem with the evo.

Werd on that, although I'm a firm disbeliever of any type of nitrous setup in any vehicle thats driven daily. One thing I do not understand is where does an Evo MR etc. have anything to do in a comparision involving a Evo8? Sounds irrelavant as does the base and Z28 trims. Yet I still didn't understand why they put in the 5speed vs. the 6 (cost?). Also if you look at any car that gets imported to the US, its always a watered down version of what the origin versions are. My guess is the low octane fuel, and emissions. The Evo8 still is an incredibly good handling car for the cost. Their almost in their own league with a few others. I haven't had the privaledge in riding in one yet (very rare where I live...very), but I can guarantee I will have my seat belt on along with grasping the door handle :smile: . One question I do have is that can you get an Evo8 easily into the 11's with only 5K? Maybe if you diy? What kind of psi can the stock turbos go up to? I would think their would require a lot of upgrades to be running 11s.

How does the EVO8 MR sound irrelavant, I mean it is the EVO8 with more power, I'm just saying that the SS trim is the high end variation of the Camaro and the EVO8 MR is one of the higher end variations of the EVO8. What you said really makes absolutely no sense, for it seems like you are assuming the EVO8 and EVO8 MR are different cars, when in fact they are the same, one just has more power and lighter weight (The Racing version). The use of the EVO8 MR was also used in response to the quote that somebody said, "EVOs can not run 12s stock." Yes they can, the EVO8 MR can, and yes it's an EVO that will go on sell in the USA this Fall. Believe me do some more research please, it is quite easy to get the EVO into the 11s with stock turbo and no NOS for well under $5K. I mean we can go on for ever and ever about this, but if you don't take the time to do some research and hit up the tracks and observe then all this is pretty much pointless, do you want to know the truth or believe what you believe? Your choice, I care not what choice you choose. But here is an EVO with well under $5k doing a 11 Second run, and let's not forget the EVO is much more than just a drag car-

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII equipped with:
Ultimate Racing 3" Turbo-Back Exhaust
Ultimate Racing HKS SSQV Kit
Ultimate Racing Intake Pipe w/ HKS Air Filter
Ultimate Racing 785cc Fuel Injectors
Ultimate Racing Ported Exhaust Manifold
Ultimate Racing Turbo Housings, O2 Housing
Walbro Fuel Pump
Greddy E-Manage / Profec E-01 Boost Package
HKS 272/272 Camshafts
Race Fuel

http://www.ultimate-racing.com/Products/Evo8/EVO-11-91at11771mph.wmv

How does the EVO8 MR sound irrelavant, I mean it is the EVO8 with more power, I'm just saying that the SS trim is the high end variation of the Camaro and the EVO8 MR is one of the higher end variations of the EVO8. What you said really makes absolutely no sense, for it seems like you are assuming the EVO8 and EVO8 MR are different cars, when in fact they are the same, one just has more power and lighter weight (The Racing version). The use of the EVO8 MR was also used in response to the quote that somebody said, "EVOs can not run 12s stock." Yes they can, the EVO8 MR can, and yes it's an EVO that will go on sell in the USA this Fall. Believe me do some more research please, it is quite easy to get the EVO into the 11s with stock turbo and no NOS for well under $5K. I mean we can go on for ever and ever about this, but if you don't take the time to do some research and hit up the tracks and observe then all this is pretty much pointless, do you want to know the truth or believe what you believe? Your choice, I care not what choice you choose. But here is an EVO with well under $5k doing a 11 Second run, and let's not forget the EVO is much more than just a drag car.


Well in the future I will do some research instead of asking you for any helpful anything. Honestly I don't understand why your being so unwilling when I just asked a few questions (you sound like you know a bit about Evo's so why shouln't I ask?). I also don't know what you think I believe but it seems like your awfully going out of your way to make some point that I never deemed impossible in the first place.

Also I didn't realize that the Evo MR is only a variation of an Evo8, sry bout that. I never meant to push your buttons.

How does the EVO8 MR sound irrelavant, I mean it is the EVO8 with more power, I'm just saying that the SS trim is the high end variation of the Camaro and the EVO8 MR is one of the higher end variations of the EVO8. What you said really makes absolutely no sense, for it seems like you are assuming the EVO8 and EVO8 MR are different cars, when in fact they are the same, one just has more power and lighter weight (The Racing version). The use of the EVO8 MR was also used in response to the quote that somebody said, "EVOs can not run 12s stock." Yes they can, the EVO8 MR can, and yes it's an EVO that will go on sell in the USA this Fall. Believe me do some more research please, it is quite easy to get the EVO into the 11s with stock turbo and no NOS for well under $5K. I mean we can go on for ever and ever about this, but if you don't take the time to do some research and hit up the tracks and observe then all this is pretty much pointless, do you want to know the truth or believe what you believe? Your choice, I care not what choice you choose. But here is an EVO with well under $5k doing a 11 Second run, and let's not forget the EVO is much more than just a drag car-

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII equipped with:
Ultimate Racing 3" Turbo-Back Exhaust
Ultimate Racing HKS SSQV Kit
Ultimate Racing Intake Pipe w/ HKS Air Filter
Ultimate Racing 785cc Fuel Injectors
Ultimate Racing Ported Exhaust Manifold
Ultimate Racing Turbo Housings, O2 Housing
Walbro Fuel Pump
Greddy E-Manage / Profec E-01 Boost Package
HKS 272/272 Camshafts
Race Fuel

http://www.ultimate-racing.com/Products/Evo8/EVO-11-91at11771mph.wmv

The ss isn't the highest end variation of the camaro. You could get it in a 1LE package, SLP package, a Lingenfelter, or Callaway package. Gm offered the camaro and firebird in many different variations just as the EVO is.

i don't know that callaway or lingenfelter, or even slp, count as "factory" packages.

that's like saying that a saleen mustang is a ford product, that ford makes.

it's not.

those models aren't.

again, children, camaro isn't the point of this thread. firebird is.

just b/c these companies can fall under GM's warranty program, and all that fun stuff, that doesn't mean that they're GM products, rolling off of GM assembly lines...

you won't find an SLP/callaway/lingenfelter car on GM's website.

end of story

Well in the future I will do some research instead of asking you for any helpful anything. Honestly I don't understand why your being so unwilling when I just asked a few questions (you sound like you know a bit about Evo's so why shouln't I ask?). I also don't know what you think I believe but it seems like your awfully going out of your way to make some point that I never deemed impossible in the first place.

Also I didn't realize that the Evo MR is only a variation of an Evo8, sry bout that. I never meant to push your buttons.

Sorry about that too, didn't mean to push your buttons either. To answer some of your questions, such as getting the EVO into the 11s for $5k is that it has alot of aftermarket parts avialable for it and many stage upgrade packages cost anywhere from $700 to $2,200 (For stage 1) and easily get the EVO deep into the 12s. Reasons for this are the tuning abilities of the 4G63T, one the best engines to tune on the import scene. Many US DSM shops who have previously worked on the Eclipse, have gradually switched more support to the EVO which pretty much uses the same engine, just newer and better. Also if launched correctly the EVO is lethal from a stop, AWD gives it awesome traction and slightly modded EVOs that are launched correctly are achieving 60FT times from 1.6 to 1.8. You are correct on the reasons for Mitsu going with a 5-Speed instead of 6-Speed, Cost. Yet with the introduction of the EVO MR which will have the 6-Speed hopefully this will change, and eventually all EVOs sold in the USA will come standard with the 6-Speed. Well hopefully I answered some of your questions, if you have any other just ask.

The ss isn't the highest end variation of the camaro. You could get it in a 1LE package, SLP package, a Lingenfelter, or Callaway package. Gm offered the camaro and firebird in many different variations just as the EVO is.

I agree with flylwsi on this, those companies such as Lingenfelter and Callaway do not count as in house factory performance, They are pretty much aftermarket companies fixing up the Firebird or Camaro for you. I mean if you go with those companies, then I'm forced to go with the HKS 450HP and 600HP EVOs.

Sorry to tell you, but it doesn't take 5 grand to get an EVO in the 12s, try more like less that $2,000. $5,000 easily puts the EVO in the 11s. Don't get me wrong, I have respect for the Camaros and Mustangs of the world just like anybody else, but don't be ignorant to the fact that the EVO is also an awesome car to tune. Besides the Camaro and Mustang are entirely different cars, only thing in common is price, if you compare the all around performance of the EVO, the Camaro and Mustangs are no match (unless your talking Saleen or etc.). The difference is the EVO is just at home on the drag strip as it is on the race track, or on the street racing scene in the United States and the rest of the world. Even in Russia they race EVOs on frozen lakes, and in the deserts of South Africa, the point is, when ever, where ever, and how ever, you want to race the EVO is ready and willing. Let's not forget the EVO has barely been around in the USA and the world for like alittle over 10 years, the Camaros and Mustangs have been around for much longer than that. So if the EVO makes it through Mitsubishi's problems, it will only get better. Also prepare for the EVO MR which costs under $35,000 and does the 1/4 Mile in the 12s stock. For your enjoyment here is a some videos of EVOs in action check it out-

http://features.evolutionm.net/article/lanevo/39/4


Sorry you missed the point. I didn't say 12s for 5 grand I said just as fast if not faster for 5 grand! Read closer. Second for what it cost to make the Evo or most other Japanese cars that fast it cost less to make an Fbody or mustang just as if not faster. There are probably 3001 ways to make that happen.

Sorry about that too, didn't mean to push your buttons either. To answer some of your questions, such as getting the EVO into the 11s for $5k is that it has alot of aftermarket parts avialable for it and many stage upgrade packages cost anywhere from $700 to $2,200 (For stage 1) and easily get the EVO deep into the 12s. Reasons for this are the tuning abilities of the 4G63T, one the best engines to tune on the import scene. Many US DSM shops who have previously worked on the Eclipse, have gradually switched more support to the EVO which pretty much uses the same engine, just newer and better. Also if launched correctly the EVO is lethal from a stop, AWD gives it awesome traction and slightly modded EVOs that are launched correctly are achieving 60FT times from 1.6 to 1.8. You are correct on the reasons for Mitsu going with a 5-Speed instead of 6-Speed, Cost. Yet with the introduction of the EVO MR which will have the 6-Speed hopefully this will change, and eventually all EVOs sold in the USA will come standard with the 6-Speed. Well hopefully I answered some of your questions, if you have any other just ask.

Hey thanks for the info, I appreciate it :smile: .

Now as far as the SLP version of the Fbodys, they are not factory options. They are after market options offered by SLP. Factory Formula's and SS's are built in the factory and then sent to SLP to be further modified. If you want to get technical the SLP package for the formula is called a firehawk. I don't think they made a special name for the SS, just SLP SS I believe.

Sorry you missed the point. I didn't say 12s for 5 grand I said just as fast if not faster for 5 grand! Read closer. Second for what it cost to make the Evo or most other Japanese cars that fast it cost less to make an Fbody or mustang just as if not faster. There are probably 3001 ways to make that happen.

Sorry you missed the point also, cuz I didn't say 5 grand, I said less than 5 grand, try 2 grand. Maybe you should read closer also. Also maybe you should do alittle more research also so that you back your claims up with facts instead of just bias claims. Of course there are more FBodys at the track, the EVO has been around for how long, 2 years, how long has the Camaro and Firebird been around, um yeah that's what I thought. Give it time, just give it some time.

Besides whenever the EVO is compared to the Firebird, Camaro, or Mustang, it's always 1/4 mile this and 1/4 mile that, and we can go on forever arguing about which is faster in the 1/4 mile. The point is the all around performance of the EVO8 is better than those cars, the EVO handles better, the EVO brakes better and is just as fast if not faster. Sure the Firebird is fast on a drag strip stock, but so is the EVO stock. But then again the EVO is more than just a drag car, it's a four door race car, while all I can say about the Firebird and Camaro and etc. is that they are drag cars.
Then I hear all this crap about racing from a roll, what is this? Wow, stock for stock a SS or WS6 is alittle quicker on the freeway when it comes to passing a slow big rig, wow, not impressed. The only racing from a roll that impresses me, is racing around a race track, and the EVO stock for stock wins that hands down.
I'm done with this post because we will go on forever and forever, but the EVO8 all around performance is better than the Firebird, enough said.

It has more to do with how much nitrous the fbody will take. The 2 valve pushrod setup doesn't flow all that well. Nitrous overcomes this. I don't think the EVO can take that much nitrous. But having a huge 5.7 engine, ppl have regularly run 125-150 shots on it.

The camaro and the firebird are the same car. 2-3 grand will get you a supercharger and put you in the 500 hp range. And the best part is that the drivetrain can handle it. The tranny is the t56 also found in the corvette, the viper, and the cobra R. The rear end is pretty damn strong too. Beefing up everything else is the big hidden cost of adding power.

The 650 HP callaway camaro > HKS EVO. And it was a NA engine too. I think the fastest built LS1 was a 7 liter overbored ls1 with forced induction, it was around 1200 hp. The LS1 engine has just as much racing pedigree as the 4G63. The C5R 24 hour lemans engine is basically a ls1 with a bigger bore for more displacement.

I have a thing about the longevity of turbocharged engines, especially when you start turning up the boost.

i don't know that callaway or lingenfelter, or even slp, count as "factory" packages.

that's like saying that a saleen mustang is a ford product, that ford makes.

it's not.

those models aren't.

again, children, camaro isn't the point of this thread. firebird is.

just b/c these companies can fall under GM's warranty program, and all that fun stuff, that doesn't mean that they're GM products, rolling off of GM assembly lines...

you won't find an SLP/callaway/lingenfelter car on GM's website.

end of story

I did post that thread before I did a little research, But I would still consider the slp package factory. You order it from the dealership and your car arrives with the package....oh well it's my opinion and we are still way off topic anyway.

I don't see why camaro's wouldn't be included. I mean the same company makes them, it's the same ls1 engine, just different body panels and the trans am has ram air.

Sorry you missed the point also, cuz I didn't say 5 grand, I said less than 5 grand, try 2 grand. Maybe you should read closer also. Also maybe you should do alittle more research also so that you back your claims up with facts instead of just bias claims. Of course there are more FBodys at the track, the EVO has been around for how long, 2 years, how long has the Camaro and Firebird been around, um yeah that's what I thought. Give it time, just give it some time.

Maybe you should read even closer as my point is for the same amount of money. Second my claims on any thread have been a hell of a lot less biased :nono: than anyone including you my friend. I do not claim this car or that car will destroy all that comes before it. Such as many Skyline fanatics do. All it has is time. The facts to back up my claims abound and are all around you my friend go out and find them, they lay within' the cars on the streets I'm sorry that when I watch cars race in street races it's not EVOs running the show. However maybe because you said they do it'll make it so? Go back read any of my responses then read yours and the true bias will be found in your posts not mine friend. Is that enough time for you?

a firebird could take 125hp of nitrous.
but you don't THINK an evo could...
that's the difference.
don't make claims based on something you're not sure about.

650hp callaway camaro vs. hks evo.
what's your point?
which hks evo are you talking about?
should we talk about the one with the full carbon fiber body that broke the tsukuba track record?
by alot?

how's that 650hp camaro in anything other than a straight line?

you wanna talk about how good an evo is/isn't?

one lap of america ( the cannonball race )
an evo finished 5th. ahead of quite a few f bodies and corvettes, and tube chassis cars, etc.

that includes ET drags, bracket drags, road course times, and skidpad #'s.

not a stock evo, 500hp, actually, but the other cars weren't stock either.

FYI:
the hks evo i'm referring to is AT LEAST 500hp, and would run CIRCLES around the camaro from callaway. it may not win in a straight line, b/c HKS believes in corners, but on a road course, say good bye, and get familiar with the taillights.

as an overall car, designed to do more than keep the wheels straight, i'd take an evo over an F body any day.

The facts to back up my claims abound and are all around you my friend go out and find them, they lay within' the cars on the streets I'm sorry that when I watch cars race in street races it's not EVOs running the show. However maybe because you said they do it'll make it so?
they're not running the show?
that's b/c of who owns them...
and how long they've been on the market, and who has the balls to start spending tons of cash in a new car.
i'm sure, if you went to evolutionm.net, you'd find people who OWN their street racing scenes.

i've got a feeling you're running into the little kids whose rents bought them the car, or stock evos.
going against NOT stock cars.

they're not running the show?
that's b/c of who owns them...
and how long they've been on the market, and who has the balls to start spending tons of cash in a new car.
i'm sure, if you went to evolutionm.net, you'd find people who OWN their street racing scenes.

i've got a feeling you're running into the little kids whose rents bought them the car, or stock evos.
going against NOT stock cars.


The balls to spend tons of cash is correct. My point there are good combos out there and the EVO is one, I'd take an AWD on the track anyday. Maybe you're right though every EVO I see race on the streets is stock and racing a modified Supra, Vette, Stang, Fbody etc. Every EVO I see race in the streets is driven by some dumb kid and no real men who know what they're doing drive them at all. Maybe you're right the vaunted EVO should be able to destroy everything in it's path. Maybe you're right in that Fbodies are just to damned expensive and EVOs cost mere pennies to make them dominate, hell maybe we should just forget anyone else's opinion all together and say YOU are correct. Look the EVO is a good car I actually like the WRX myself that's me but I love AWD cars especially for track use, look back on my posts you'll see that I've said the EVO on the track anyday (and you said I was biased?) To state that the EVO would own any Fbody at anytime track or strip is wrong. As I have said before what I have seen is what I have seen, these are rich kids with $$ to spend who think they're the shit with their new EVOs and they race them in street races IE drag racing and don't do all that well. I'm not even a drag racing fan, and when I build my machine it'll be for strip and street. I have a feeling that if these idiots took their EVOs out to the nearest road course they'd fair much better. That's how I feel and how I see it.

so we're on the same page then...
i just said that b/c i don't want people who don't read the whole thread to think that because one person saw them "not living up to the claims" on the street, that they're a waste, and use that as uniformed ammo in a firefight.

Evo's cost a bit more than a domestic Firebird.... Put camshaft, cold air intake, and exhaust on the firebird and hell you can get moving perty fast. The 0-60 shouldn't really matter either cause the firebird could waste the evo if it were allready at like 40 mph which you are probably not going to get much under in a race track. torque is what its all about anyway not ponies.

Evo's cost a bit more than a domestic Firebird.... Put camshaft, cold air intake, and exhaust on the firebird and hell you can get moving perty fast. The 0-60 shouldn't really matter either cause the firebird could waste the evo if it were allready at like 40 mph which you are probably not going to get much under in a race track. torque is what its all about anyway not ponies.

So your saying a Firebird will smoke an EVO at a race track, stop smoking crack son! The EVOs not slow from a roll either, that little 4-Cylinder traps at 103MPH and does the 1/4 mile in low 13s. It's all around performance is superior. A great car doesn't just go fast straight, a great car does that and then some (EVO). I'm not saying the Firebird's all around performance sucks, cuz it doesn't, it's just not on par with the EVO.

cody, that's the ricer excuse.

so, theoretically, you could take the "left over" money, and mod the firebird to KILL the evo.

come on man.

that's like saying you'd take a civic over a zo6, b/c you could use the extra to destroy the vette with your uber civic.

come on...

So your saying a Firebird will smoke an EVO at a race track, stop smoking crack son! The EVOs not slow from a roll either, that little 4-Cylinder traps at 103MPH and does the 1/4 mile in low 13s. It's all around performance is superior. A great car doesn't just go fast straight, a great car does that and then some (EVO). I'm not saying the Firebird's all around performance sucks, cuz it doesn't, it's just not on par with the EVO.

I agree with Cody that the Firebird would make a better drag car and costs less to mod than an Evo. However I agree as well that the Evo is an all around better performer.

i own both a 2001 z28 and a new evo 2004..plan to sell the camaro the power is great but the traction and handling are poor compared to the evo..camaros handle like a mack truck once you try driving a lancer evo..yes i drag race some but not every day maybe a few times a year

the 2001 camaor used $18k + $10k motor upgrades/chassis to make it 400rwhp..581 lift cam heads headers lsx intake all the parts you can add + parts under to make it able to take the extra power and clutch of course..i saw posts above of twin turbo ls1 yes cool lotsa power but to take that power you need a forged ls1 cannot use the stock block compression too high..twin turbo ls1 c5r block or similiar anywhere from $25k-40k if you get radical with the parts for the motor alone

throw $10k at a new evo which i plan to do when i sell the camaro, you could easily make 500whp with stage upgrades and a larger turbo..$40k total but you have better handling AWD nice interior etc..

as for durability for $10k i just might pull the original motor and put in the avail 800hp rated shortblocks then start with the turbo upgrades..

anyone looking for a good condition used 2001 z28 with 400rwhp? haha

Man this is 5 MONTHS OLD!!!

Lock it up

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