Turbo or S2?? Best Buy 944? (Determined Buyer)

A line truck just destroyed my modded BMW 325is :disappoin, and I'm in the market for a new car. I have about 10,000 and am lookin for the best value in a porsche. I want to mod the car. Here are the questions.

S2 or Turbo for:

Mods?
best looking kits, wheel fitments, general stuff like seats and carbon.

Turbo upgrade?
better to upgrade the Turbo or slap a new turbo on the S2.

Parts?
which is cheaper and more accessible

Problems?
which has more problems

Attractability?
which one is more likely to attract the women. :eek:

The 944 turbo, also known as the 951, and 944S2 share the same body, right down to the aerodynamic aids and interior, so from that point, they are identical.

For a turbo upgrade, the 951 is the easier route, but not the best route. If you want to spend a hefty chunk of change and get the best motor, the 944S2 engine is the way to go. It's physically larger, at 3 liters, vs 2.5 liters for the 951. It has a DOHC cylinder head, and 4 valves per cylinder, vs the SOHC head of the 951. It's just a better engine, if you're going to build it from the ground up.

The 944S2 is cheaper on the parts, and more reliable as well. This isn't to say that the 951 is not reliable, it is. The 944S2 is just exceptionally reliable.

As for problems, both cars are known to incite Honda driving highschool kids to prompt street races :lol:

Women who are not Porsche nuts will not be able to tell the difference between the S2 and the 951, they are indistinguishable except for the Turbo and S2 badges. That being said, once they hear turbo whistle, they might be able to tell the difference.

944 Turbo all the way, reliable if you keep it maintained, wow facter for ladies, and a blast to drive

Have fun getting a 944

O and Turbos are SOOOOO much more fun:)

id say get an S2 and put a turbo on it. you'll get the best of both worlds.

944 Turbo is good for buyers who like top end. Good power after 3800RPM till redline. S2 makes good power at all rpms. S2 is a smoother running engine. The aftermarket is larger for the Turbo models. There are many 944 Turbo owners who stroke and/or bore there blocks. The 16V DOHC head can be put on the 951 block with alteration. If your gonna make really big power gains i suggest it. Theres not turbo kit available for S2 but there is Supercharger available for $5K+.

Ben you cant just slap a turbo on a S2. Even if you had a turbo and intercooler fabed to a S2 you couldnt run decent boost because the engine wasnt engineered for the stress of a turbo. Cheaper and more practical to buy the Supercharger.

S2's are good for short tracks were you have to brake hard for a turn and then accilirate because the S2 makes its tq lower in the powerband. Turbo is a blast on highways & freeways. Id suggest a 951 and increase displacement and get a S2 head altered to fit and worked on for good breathing. Cams are a must and buy a good turbo. replace the wastegate and Diverter valve and you have a really good car. 944 Turbo's have lots of potential. European Car Mag is doing a 951 project right now.

When buying any 944 make sure it as a complete maintanance record and that everything has been replaced when it should have been. You dont want to get a deal on a great 944 and than drive it home and the timing belt snap and have a trashed motor.

Kokeln makes a turbo kit for the S2, they lower the compression using shorter connecting rods, and make between 400-550hp, depending on the engine.

To say the S2 engine is not engineered for turbocharging is somewhat misleading. It wasn't expressly designed with that purpose in mind, but it doesn't make it at all difficult to turbocharge. It's no different than turbocharging a Honda 4 cylinder that was "not engineered" for turbocharging, yet people do that quite often. Lower the compression, fit the kokeln manifold and turbocharger, go with 3" exhaust, and figure out something for the fuel/ignition curves. Chips work for that, or standalone, or just a piggyback controller. There are many choices, most of them better than buying a 951 and dumping money into it :icon16:

cbass, you have to remember those honda;s they turbo cant handle more than 6psi of boost without unrelaiblity problems and potential motor damage.

A stock 944 Turbo is set for 10.9psi boost & can can handle about 15-16psi on stock internals and still be reliable.

Now lets see a honda or S2 handle 16psi and last.

S2 would be great to boost since it does make great n/a power. Many 951 owners build turbocharged S2 based 3.0L engines for there cars but those engines are built from the ground up.

cbass, you have to remember those honda;s they turbo cant handle more than 6psi of boost without unrelaiblity problems and potential motor damage.

A stock 944 Turbo is set for 10.9psi boost & can can handle about 15-16psi on stock internals and still be reliable.

Now lets see a honda or S2 handle 16psi and last.


You would have to be crazy to turbocharge an S2 with 10.8:1 compression, that's the point of the shorter connecting rods, they lower the compression ratio to a more managable 8.5:1, IIRC.

Those little honda motors can tolerate the boost just fine, as long as the compression is lowered and the fuel and ignition timing is recalibrated for forced induction.


S2 would be great to boost since it does make great n/a power. Many 951 owners build turbocharged S2 based 3.0L engines for there cars but those engines are built from the ground up.

Yes, there are two ways to go about it, either using the 951 head, which eliminates the big advantage of having the 16 valve head in the first place, or by using the 16V head. You just have to lower the compression, and change your engine management. That and fit a turbo header...

Actually you can run 10.8:1 compression on 16psi of boost Your gonna need good engine managment and keep it in tune and run high octane fuel and maybe even race fuel but for a street car its not practical.

this is a little off the subject, but i don't like the body style of the 968 over the sweet curves of the 944...
would it be possible to swap a 3.0L T from a 968 turbo s into a 944 s2?
if so, what is the cost?
and don't tell me to just get an s2 turbo...
the 968 engines came with the variocam technology thatincreased efficiency and power. the 3.0L turbo engine of the 968 puts out 310 HP stock!!

First id like to see you even find a motor from a 968 Turbo S. Those cars are very rare. Any 968 will bolt right into any 944. I actually love the looks of the 968. Even regular 968's are still pretty pricey and sell for $30,000+ and you can imagine what the Rare 968 Turbo S would cost.

944 Turbo S & 968 Turbo S are both worth more in stock form.

I have seen a few 951 owners build a turbocharged 16V DOHC 3.3L L4 that was based on a n/a 968 block. You just have to ask your self how much money you willing to put into such a project. to me sucha engine would make a killer race motor in a 951 but is it worth the investment for a street car. If i remember correctly all those engine's didnt use the Motronic engine management.

this is a little off the subject, but i don't like the body style of the 968 over the sweet curves of the 944...
would it be possible to swap a 3.0L T from a 968 turbo s into a 944 s2?
if so, what is the cost?
and don't tell me to just get an s2 turbo...
the 968 engines came with the variocam technology thatincreased efficiency and power. the 3.0L turbo engine of the 968 puts out 310 HP stock!!

Actually you can run 10.8:1 compression on 16psi of boost Your gonna need good engine managment and keep it in tune and run high octane fuel and maybe even race fuel but for a street car its not practical.

Not on pump gas. 10.8:1 compression is pushing the limits of 92 octane fuel, adding boost on top of that makes things tricky. An interesting note is, gaseous fuels such as LPG and hydrogen have a RON of between 120 and 135.

this is a little off the subject, but i don't like the body style of the 968 over the sweet curves of the 944...
would it be possible to swap a 3.0L T from a 968 turbo s into a 944 s2?
if so, what is the cost?
and don't tell me to just get an s2 turbo...
the 968 engines came with the variocam technology thatincreased efficiency and power. the 3.0L turbo engine of the 968 puts out 310 HP stock!!

As I understand it, they ditched the variocam when they ditched the 16 valve head in the Turbo S. I think you'd be much better off getting a 968 or 944S2 naturally aspirated, and turbocharging it, and you'd probably spend quite a bit less. Of course, the 968 TS engine should swap directly in, it's the same bottom end in the same engine bay. BTW, there were only 20 turbocharged 968s made from the factory.

If you're serious about going the 16 valve turbo route, talk to the good people at Kokeln.

http://kokeln.com/r_d/flipper.shtml

As 87Porsche951 has said, it's not cheap. I did some pricing on this a couple years back, and here's what I came up with.

$2000 for the custom Carrillo connecting rods, they lower the compression and provide enough bottom end strength to support 600hp.

I think Kokeln wanted $500 for the turbo manifold, but don't quote me on that. Figure another $1500 for a good ball bearing turbo, another $500 for a decent intercooler and all the custom plumbing that will need to be done. $500-$2000 for standalone engine management, $500 for a 3" exhaust upgrade, another $1000 in fuel system upgrades, etc. It's not cheap, and it adds up really fast.

i see...
money might not be an option...
i'm in the air force and am getting a $30,000 bonus.
how would i get/make a 3.3L L4? turbo?

The 3.3 liter engines are strokers, you would need to have your stock crank stroked by welding and offset grinding, or get a new crank made. Figure big bucks here, new rods and pistons will probably be necessary as well. At this point, you should really be thinking about extra machining work, like O ringing, cylinder sleeves, and a good main bearing girdle. There are a few kits out there, and then there are domestic companies like Scat and Crower who will make a custom bottom end for you, to your specifications, figure around $2000-$5000 just in building the bottom end.

Then it comes down to the other things, the turbocharger, fuel system, exhaust system, engine management, cylinder head upgrades, drivetrain upgrades, and pretty soon you've burned right through your $30K.

Your best bet would be to consult with the guys at Kokeln and Powerhaus, since they have experience doing this, and the best you're going to get here is speculation. Powerhaus sells 3.0 16V turbo conversions for $22K.

www.powerhaus.com

www.kokeln.com

Great! Thanks!

I would think you can get a 3.0L block and do a all bore 3.3L. I know 951 owners have done all bore 2.8L. I know a few that do a stroke and bore. 3.0L already has decent low end tq so if you can punch it to 3.3L safely that might be a option you would want expecially if you want more high end. Porsche made the engines oversquare from the factory so if you really wanted more tq you can go stroker and it would help square the motor. Its been my experience that car w/ larger bore than stroke can achive higher RPM's and will have faster top end speed but the downfall is low end tq and most are pretty slow off the line.
If you go with a all bore 3.3L you wont need a different sized crank but you will need larger pistons and different rods. I know good rods like Carillo are over $1,000 a set.

... (YeTi says nothing. just whistles and looks in his empty wallet as a moth flies out; wishing his $30,000 would come just a bit earlier...)

944S2NUThere, Get the S2 if you are going to use it as a daily driver. I bought my 1990 S2 mint! Still had to invest about 6k into it to have it perfect. Example Timing belts rollers, camchain tennsioner, suspension, front and rear engine seals, new bushings when I did the yellow konis, brakes, electrical tuneup etc.. Really research this before you jump. The 951's are a great car for the summer/weekends unless you are a richman high maintenance. I have many friends with 951's and 951S's none of them are daily drivers. Anyways good luck on the hunt and check out this site for more questions. www.rennlist.com

Lots of misinformation in this thread. Shorter connecting rods is not a good way to reduce compression. Also, it's usually not a good idea to guess what compression ratio can handle what type of boost as there's many variables from the shape of the combustion chamber to the squish area to ignition timing, air/fuel mixture, dynamic compression ratio, etc. etc.

Turbocharging an S2 engine with a real increase in power would take a lot more than just lowering the compression. At a bare minimum (other than rods/pistons ofcourse), a new and custom exhaust manifold, custom plumbing for the turbo, and possibly a custom intake manifold. Do not forget the injectors/fuel pressure regulator, engine management, etc. and one would hope cooling upgrades as well. In short, it's not conceivable for $10k, if that price includes purchasing a suitable S2.
Ahmet

you can "slap" a turbo on it as well as you can with any other motor. In fact, the stock internals in the s2 are probably substantially stronger than those of the turbo. The only difference is compression ratio. I would guarantee that the s2 motor with lowered compression could run more boosted horsepower than the 2.5L motor. everyone makes a big deal about "stock internals" and such, alot of times it's simply compression. How many know that the 924 n/a transaxle is stronger than the 944 turbo (951) transaxle? Its true. In fact the S2 trans is stronger than the 951 and has better ratios. In additon, DOHC means less predetonation. So before you make a stink about stock internals ask me about the 9 lbs of boost im running in a previously n/a saab 9000, its got 10.5:1 compression to boot. Also a note about electronics....the S2 has a mass sensing system, not MAP, so one can run low boost pressures without any sort of new electronics, the computer should compensate easily for the increased airflow and the injectors should be fine. the only major concern is tapping the block for oil.

What makes you think that the S2 has stronger internals compared to the turbo? I'm just curious. Also, why bring in the transaxles to this discussion (the 944 S2 does NOT have a stronger transaxle compared to the turbo), but if you will go ahead and tell me how you figure the 924 na transaxle is stronger than the 944 series transaxles, I would appreciate it. And what about the S2 box having better gear ratios? Better ratios for what? This is a completely subjective issue. I would like my turbo to be geared higher... You make so many umbrella statements that it's hard to smack you with your own bullshit. Case in point, "s2 motor with lowered compression could run more boosted horsepower than the 2.5L motor", WTF is this w/out quantifying any of the variables? This is like saying "your dumbass could offer something of value to this thread if you did some research", where you could just as easly be retarded, and not be capable of an intelligent conversation. :p

What exactly is so hard about tapping the block for oil? (Which isn't even necessary, as one can just use a balance shaft housing from a turbo for this purpose, or hand a monkey the block, and he'll give it to you w/a hole on it).
Ahmet

[QUOTE=over1g]What makes you think that the S2 has stronger internals compared to the turbo? I'm just curious. Also, why bring in the transaxles to this discussion (the 944 S2 does NOT have a stronger transaxle compared to the turbo), but if you will go ahead and tell me how you figure the 924 na transaxle is stronger than the 944 series transaxles, I would appreciate it. And what about the S2 box having better gear ratios? Better ratios for what? This is a completely subjective issue. I would like my turbo to be geared higher... You make so many umbrella statements that it's hard to smack you with your own bullshit. Case in point, "s2 motor with lowered compression could run more boosted horsepower than the 2.5L motor", WTF is this w/out quantifying any of the variables? This is like saying "your dumbass could offer something of value to this thread if you did some research", where you could just as easly be retarded, and not be capable of an intelligent conversation. :p

Well, to answer the question about the transmissions would have to deal with the fact that if this person is looking for more low end acceleration, which they obviously seem like they are, then the S2's shorter final drive is a "better" choice for this application. In addition, vehicles such as my buddys MR2 turbo have stronger syncros and better differential over n/a models- the strength of a transmission is certainly a concern when discussing these matters. The 924 trans is stronger than the 944's, you can say that it isn't but you're wrong, my friend is a 944 freak and owns them and in addition several peformance sites will tell you that if you want to run more than 350 horsepower then the 924 trans is an option that should be looked into (look at http://www.windward-perf.com/944turbo.html). One of the sites lists the 944 trans as audi produced and the 924 as Porsche produced, im not sure on the accuracy of that statement but i suppose you could say that is evidence. And I'd like to see anyone quantifying variables (which you say the S2 tranny is CERTAINLY not stronger than the 951's, give me a scientific analysis that has proven that) about this scenario as far as the S2 vs th 951 motors; that is something i would tend to say and perhaps I am wrong, ill give you that, although i do think the DOHC engine is a far more efficient engine. Finally, I guess I didn't understand how difficult turbo oil supply would be in the 944, in the 9000 (if the holes where not in place) it would require removing the head and oil pan and drilling both out.

I suppose you have some witty, snide reply for all of that although I don't know if this is really that important to me. Perhaps the moderator should pull your post for calling another member "retarded," which is a totally ridiculous observation. I won't claim you're retarded, and I dont believe it's something I deserve either.

Here's my witty, snide reply:
I didn't call you a retard, re-read my post.
Here's your scientific "analysis" for why the S2 box isn't stronger vs. the turbo box: they're basically the same gear box, except the gear ratios. A 924 box is NOT stronger than a 944 box, and windward started that legend. Is the guy who told you this the guy that owns windward (drives a viper too) If you know him, do everbody a favor and tell him to stop spreading myths. PS: Only the very early 4 speed 924 has a Porsche built box. My problem really is your assumptions, and passing of bad information as truth. Yes the 16 valve engine has excellent combustion chambers, doesn't mean it's a much stronger engine though. Your buddies MR-2, and anything on it does not mean anything in this context either. I hope I'm getting through to you. I'm sorry for coming off as harsh, if it makes you feel better, you here by have my permission to tell yourself that my mom didn't breast feed me enough when I was younger. :p <--that means (for the second time) that I mean this in a joking way.
Ahmet

You know what though, in all seriousness... I disagree with you in some ways but I'm certainly being an asshole about it. I did not mean to offend you, and meant what I said in the above posts lightly. If you take offense to any of what I said, my apologies.
Ahmet

Let's put it this way...the 951 is more like hot and cold. Hit the pedal then you get lag suddenly the boost hits and hold on your gone. Bottom end is not so great...driving around town the 951 is very poor. Mid-high range driving it's a beast nothing can touch you. Bottom line the 951 is a sprinter.

S2- More like a better all around athlete very tractable around town and moderate power.

As for modding the 951 is very responsive to minor bolt on like chip/MBC/WG/exhasut then you cand be boosting 10-15 psi on a stock HG.

cbass, you have to remember those honda;s they turbo cant handle more than 6psi of boost without unrelaiblity problems and potential motor damage.

A stock 944 Turbo is set for 10.9psi boost & can can handle about 15-16psi on stock internals and still be reliable.

Now lets see a honda or S2 handle 16psi and last.

S2 would be great to boost since it does make great n/a power. Many 951 owners build turbocharged S2 based 3.0L engines for there cars but those engines are built from the ground up.


look into the honda B18B1 engine... strongest honda engine. on stock internals can support closet to 400WHP (if tuning is done right). And the higher compression is better, but easier to blwo the engine, you can run less boost with the higher compression and get the same HP as a lower compression engine. Also you say hondas can only boost 6PSI? well that all depends on the turbo a smaller turbo at 6PSI might only push half of what a larger turbo at 6PSI will boost....

ummm with a total of four 968 turbo s cars coming out of the factory....you aren't gonna be a 968 T engine that was made by porsche...but you could build your own :)

If you are hell bent for leather (Judas Priest reference) on a 951 go for it. As with the entire 944/951/968 series, maintenance records IMO is the biggest single factor. You will pay more out of the gate, but end up spending less. If that timing belt goes you are done. That said, there are a great number of options available for the 944/951 series. The 944S2 and the 968 have similar problems though, not much available for upgrades and very expensive. The gains to be had with the 3.0L mills are quite impressive though. Check out Powerhaus, Anderson Motorworks Inc. and Ninemeister for some options. Most of their work requires the car to be in their shop, but that might be a good thing depending on how competent you are on these engines. They are wonderful as long as they are taken care of by a competent mechanic (you or a pro.) In closing, buy the absolute nicest example you can with the best maintenance history once you decide which one you want. There are a metric asston of options available for them all, and the really radical stuff is best left to the pros to make it all work together effectively. Just my 2 cents....

Keep Smilin,
Micah

You know what though, in all seriousness... I disagree with you in some ways but I'm certainly being an asshole about it. I did not mean to offend you, and meant what I said in the above posts lightly. If you take offense to any of what I said, my apologies.
Ahmet


Apology accepted man, i suppose i got alittle crazy on the assumptions...doing alot of basing on past experiences with other turbo vehicles. Anyways, us sports car people have to stick together. It's all good. If you find any 944 turbo's under 3,800 in your area that'd be great too (a bit unrealistic perhaps).

If you find a 951 for $3,800 its broken!

If you find a 951 for $3,800 its broken!

Well, I suppose you have to define broken...

Broken meaning something is wrong with it and in need of repair. If you find a 951 for that price something probably happened like a timing belt failure and head is trashed and they cant afford to fix it so instead of fixing it they would rather sell it. I hear alot of stories of people buying so called great deals on a 951 in perfect condition and after purchasing find out the timin belt needs replaced, head needs rebuilt, etc. Which they soon find out later would have been cheaper to just hold out an buy a 951 that had full records and was priced a few thousand more.

Alot of people buy these cars not knowing anything about them, they see the word Porsche and they go nuts. Then they beat the crap out of it and when something fails they find out how much the damage is gonna cost and there quick to sell instead of facing the bill and alot of people will hide the problems with the car from you and you get stuck with a bill or they just sell the car too.

It is funny how every one on this thread thinks they know about these cars....

The reason the 944S2 or 968 for that matter has stronger internals and can handle MORE power that the 2.5 turbo is becuase of the block design. In the 2.5 motor, the cylinders are not connected to each other. In the 3.o liter block, the cylinders are symeised (sp?) . If anyone has seen both of the blocks, they will know what I am talking about. In the 2.5 block, the cylinders will move under large boost pressures and therefore there is a high head gasket failure rate. In the 3.0 block, the cylinders are connected which reduces the movement of the cylinders and it handles much more power without the same frequency of failures....

There is a few more differences, but I wont bore you with the details...

My 2 cents....

One more thing, the externals of both blocks are identical which means you can use all of your 2.5 stuff (exhaust headers, intake , 8v head. etc.) and put it on your 3.0 block. There is one of the water journals that needs to be modified for the 8v head to bolt up, but it is faily simple....

Bye