Right after it was anounced that the Lancer was coming to the Stated Subaru promised that anything that mitsubishi coud do they would out do them. When I saw the hp of the STI I thought that it would be faster. It is not. In a recent Motor Trend comparison the Evo smoked the more powerful STi in every event. Slolom, 0-60, 1/4 mile, skidpad, everything. Does Subaru have any plans to follow through on their word and give us somthing that will beat the Evo??

No I assure you that the Lancer beat it in Motor Trends Tests, granted some of that may be due to driver error but not in every event. I was shocked too but look it up for yourself. Any way you look at it the Lancer is the faster (notice I did not say better) car. Subaru better get their act togeather or they are going to loose the AWD sportscar war. I did see one comparason in another magazine that said that the STi was faster but their numbers on the Evo were much slower then what MT published. Personaly I would trust MT before I trusted some two bit out of my moms garage tuner mag anyway.

The numbers are almost always identical. Sometimes the STi wins, sometimes the EVO wins. Blame it on driver error, altitude, temperature, whatever. The cars are, for all intensive purposes, equal. Neither company has to get their act together, both cars are spectacular. Fighting between the EVO and the STi remains a personal opinion battle.

However, I'm quite confused with your first two posts. It's like you're counteracting a post that wasn't posted.

He was replying to a post I made that I deleted because it would just lead to a bunch of "nuh uh EVOs faster", "nuh uh STi's faster", "well this magazine ran this" and "well I know a guy whos uncle ran this" crap.

Subaru isn't losing anything. I'll just leave it at that.

Something to remember about Motor Trend tests. They don't actually run the times that they list. They run a slower time, then apply correction factors to try and calculate what the car could have run on an absolutely perfect run. Correction factors and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee IMO. I want to know what you actually ran in the car, not what you think you could run, but they don't tell us that.

SCC, on the other hand, doesn't use correction factors. The Evo barely squeezed out a win. I think it's pretty much a dead argument. One, who cares, and two, so what if you're right? The other person's never going to give you an inch anyways.

They also use professional drivers. If someone like me were to do a 1/4 for both of them the sti would probably be faster.

one other thing to remember about the 0-60 times...The STi has to make a 2-3 shift before 60 MPH, the EVO does not. For all intents and purposes, the overall performance differences of the two cars boil down to EXACTLY what you are doing with it.

Really, well most sites(car-stats.com) and mags I've seen have the STi running a faster 1/4 mile time and faster slalom.

The STi does lows 13s and high 12s while the EVO does mid-low 13s.

If you want to see which performs better 0-60 and 1/4 mile wise, go to a track and watch them. Everytime i've been out the STi's always come out on top of the evo's. Yes, there are driver errors but o well, that's life and so far what i've noticed is, either people who drive WRX's are better at racing or the EVO's are just slower. Pick either one. Few months back a few STi's and EVo's came out, brand new from the dealership, maybe a few days old and the STI's on average were running 13.5's to 13.7's while the EVO"s at best were running 14.4's to 14.6's. The articles you read in magazines have professional drives doing the tests so dont ever expect to achieve their times. Even in some magazines they pay for their reviews. I did a college report on biased magazines and it happens quite often. It doesnt matter what the mags or other people run in their cars, it matter what YOU run in yours.

However, I'm quite confused with your first two posts. It's like you're counteracting a post that wasn't posted.[/QUOTE]


I did that because someone was PMing me and I did not want to send a PM back.

Well if thay are a dead even match now then when the Evo RS and VQ330 come out that will put the Evo way in the lead. They say that the type RS is about 200lbs lighter and has a limited slip in the front. It will also cost about 2k less. The VQ330 is said to make 330hp but that one I think is only going to England. The RS will be in the US very soon if it is not here already.

STi has one thing over Evo. It was featured in Hot Rod Magazine this month which says something about it. An import in a domestic magazine because this particula import kicks a lot of a$$.

the EVO has barely changed since it was introduced in Japan. give the STi time and it will get better than it is already.

the EVO has barely changed since it was introduced in Japan. give the STi time and it will get better than it is already.


Barely changed??? What Japan are you talking about? the J-spec RS makes 276hp at the wheels not 271 at the flywheel. Secondly the J-spec RS weighs only around 1200kg (about 2800lbs not 3260lbs like the US spec). That is a 400lbs difference! You call that "barely changed"?!? Also the Jspec has a better center differential, and I beleve that it has a limites slip in the front. If you call that barely changed than what do you call a big change?????? :eek7: I hope that the STi does get better because I like the reliability of the Subies better than the Evos (though they are not bad) But as it stands right now the Evos are wining the race.

JDM EVO's don't make 276 hp at the wheels, that's at the flywheel. And you still haven't said how the EVO is "winning". Some Motor Trend test doesn't mean much to me, in the real world STi's have proven to be pretty even if not faster.

JDM EVO's don't make 276 hp at the wheels, that's at the flywheel. And you still haven't said how the EVO is "winning". Some Motor Trend test doesn't mean much to me, in the real world STi's have proven to be pretty even if not faster.

The gentelmans law (the one that limits Japanese cars to 276hp) messures the power at the wheels. That is why Supras with the same engine are 276hp in Japan and 320hp in America (because we count at the flywheel.) I have heard of Jspec Evos messuring over 300+hp at the flywheeel. If the STi is just barely matching the Evo now what about when the RS comes out in a few monthes? Or God forbid they should sell the VQ330 in the states? Plus the Evo is just as fast (if not faster) for a whole lot less money. Like I said before I really do hope that the Subies do win but they need to step up to the plate quick before the Evos get a foothold in America.

The gentelmans law (the one that limits Japanese cars to 276hp) messures the power at the wheels. That is why Supras with the same engine are 276hp in Japan and 320hp in America (because we count at the flywheel.)

No it doesn't, Japanese Supras just make less power than American Supras. It's 276 flywheel.

If the STi is just barely matching the Evo now what about when the RS comes out in a few monthes? Or God forbid they should sell the VQ330 in the states?

Oh what if what if what if. Ever heard of an S202 or a Spec C or a 22B?

Plus the Evo is just as fast (if not faster) for a whole lot less money.

The extra stuff the STi has over the EVO is the worlds greatest bargain for the small price increase.

Aye. Gentlemen, just deal with it. Deciding which car is better when they're so close simply comes down to which each person likes more. If I had 30,000 to spend on a car, which would I get? Neither, I'd buy an old NA Supra and do a swap. When the cars are *essentially* equal performers here, nobody's ever going to give in to the other guy. It's not like after all of this arguing, somebody's gonna go "oh, you were right all along. I like the (STi/EVO) more now." Aye!

No it doesn't, Japanese Supras just make less power than American Supras. It's 276 flywheel.



Oh what if what if what if. Ever heard of an S202 or a Spec C or a 22B?



The extra stuff the STi has over the EVO is the worlds greatest bargain for the small price increase.


OK tell you what look up the boost pressure and redline of the 2JZ-GTE engine and then tell me that the japanese version makes less power, if anything it would make more due to the reduced emmisions standards in japan at the time. (less backpressure) What next are you going to tell me that air in japan does not burn as much? Have you ever noticed that the Jspec cars are always faster? Yes I do know about the other versions that Subie makes and they are impressive, but unless they bring them over they still might loose to the Evo. What "extra stuff" is worth the extra 4 grand? (other than the variable center diff)

OK tell you what look up the boost pressure and redline of the 2JZ-GTE engine and then tell me that the japanese version makes less power, if anything it would make more due to the reduced emmisions standards in japan at the time. (less backpressure

You realize that has nothing to do with it, right? It's an artificial limit.

Have you ever noticed that the Jspec cars are always faster?

So is that your whole argument? "JDM cars are always faster"? :rolleyes: The USDM 3000gt is faster than the JDM version too. As is the USDM 300zx. Even the USDM STi.

Ah yes, the gentlemen's agreement. Officially, no production car in Japan is supposed to be listed with more than 280 horsepower at the flywheel.

The JDM MKIV Supra TT was spec'ed at 280 hp. And it seems that it was actually limited to that. The U.S. Supra went 13.3 in the 1.4 mile, while the Japanese Supra came in at 14 flat, 7/10s of a second slower!

Nowhere in the world do they claim hp at the wheels for manufacturer rating, it's always at the flywheel. It would be downright stupid of them not to. 90% of the car buying population have no idea what the defference even is, they just think the biggest number is always better. So manufacturers always rate at the flywheel because it's a bigger number.

What "extra stuff" is worth the extra 4 grand? (other than the variable center diff)

6 speed, adjustable center diff, suretrac front lsd, mechanical rear lsd, half a liter of displacement, more compliant suspension... for starters. Try adding just the LSD's alone to an EVO for less than $4,000. Yes the EVO is cheaper, there's a reason for that...

Nowhere in the world do they claim hp at the wheels for manufacturer rating, it's always at the flywheel. It would be downright stupid of them not to. 90% of the car buying population have no idea what the defference even is, they just think the biggest number is always better. So manufacturers always rate at the flywheel because it's a bigger number.


noob question off the topic...why is it always bigger at the flywheel? is there any case wherein the hp is bigger at the wheels?

No. The flywheel rating is the power rating coming out of the engine. Power is lost going through the transmission, which leads to a lower number that actually makes it to the wheels.

No. The flywheel rating is the power rating coming out of the engine. Power is lost going through the transmission, which leads to a lower number that actually makes it to the wheels.


hmmmmm...i never thought of it that way. it does make sense now. thanks for the info. :smokin:

Aye. Gentlemen, just deal with it. Deciding which car is better when they're so close simply comes down to which each person likes more. If I had 30,000 to spend on a car, which would I get? Neither, I'd buy an old NA Supra and do a swap. When the cars are *essentially* equal performers here, nobody's ever going to give in to the other guy. It's not like after all of this arguing, somebody's gonna go "oh, you were right all along. I like the (STi/EVO) more now." Aye!

I agree completely, it all comes down to personal choice. Being a few tenths faster in an instrumented test matters very little under normal conditions. And if I had $30,000, I'd pay off my car and buy a K1 Attack :p

6 speed, adjustable center diff, suretrac front lsd, mechanical rear lsd, half a liter of displacement, more compliant suspension... for starters. Try adding just the LSD's alone to an EVO for less than $4,000. Yes the EVO is cheaper, there's a reason for that...[/QUOTE/]


WTH "more comliant suspention" then why does the Evo corner faster? Why does the Evo slolom faster? Why does the respond faster? And for your information the Evo comes with an LSD STOCK!!! The new cheaper, faster RS will have front and rear LDSs stock for about 26k. And please notice that I said "except for the center diff." Try reading somtime before you anwser. Oh yea and what good does that 6 speed do you if you are still slower than the Evo. I know on paper it lookes like the STi should be faster but the truth remains that it is not.

Aye. Gentlemen, just deal with it. Deciding which car is better when they're so close simply comes down to which each person likes more. If I had 30,000 to spend on a car, which would I get? Neither, I'd buy an old NA Supra and do a swap. When the cars are *essentially* equal performers here, nobody's ever going to give in to the other guy. It's not like after all of this arguing, somebody's gonna go "oh, you were right all along. I like the (STi/EVO) more now." Aye!


You are right about one thing the proformance is very close, but consider this.

The 4G-63 motor has been around for a long time and has proven itself to be a true proformance engine unlike the EJ 25 or whatever they call it. (Yes I already know that they derived it from the 22Bs engine but it still has different internals) So there is already a well reserched aftermarket for the Evo.

The Evo does have the slight proformance advantage to start with so tuning is easier.

The Evo in my humble opinion looks a little more like a sportscar.

The new RS is coming out soon so you wont have to play around with a heatgun to scrape 40lbs of tar (sound insolation) out of your car. Plus it comes with two limited slips for less money.

At any rate all that I am saying is that subi is not living up to their promise to beat the Evo.

Don't get me wrong Jared, I completely agree with the evo sentiments. The fact that it does more with less alone is reason enough in my book. And the 13 year old engine design? I'll trust it a whole lot more than these new-fangled EJ25s.

But nonetheless, nobody's going to give anybody anything here. It's the equivalent of a Mac vs. PC argument as I've stated in the past. Let me elaborate. No matter how many facts that a Mac user were to present to the PC user about ANYTHING, they would eventually retort with something along the lines of "whatever, Macs suck, PCs rule!" Thus, the discussion would end. No matter how much evidence STi lovers or EVO lovers present, the other side will eventually return fire with a worthless retort that will void the entire discussion. Nobody's going to concede to anybody.

I know but it is fun anyway. I do this all the time because I learn alot. And hopefully sombody from subi might come across this forum and see that some of us know that the Evo is faster and we want the STi to beat it.

WTH "more comliant suspention" then why does the Evo corner faster? Why does the Evo slolom faster? Why does the respond faster?

compliant

\Com*pli"ant\, a. Yielding; bending; pliant; submissive.

It has nothing to do with how fast it can corner :rolleyes: It means it's easier to live with on a daily basis

And for your information the Evo comes with an LSD STOCK!!! The new cheaper, faster RS will have front and rear LDSs stock for about 26k. And please notice that I said "except for the center diff." Try reading somtime before you anwser.

You try reading sometime, the EVO comes with a viscous rear LSD, I said the STi comes with a mechanical rear LSD. Do you know the difference?

Oh yea and what good does that 6 speed do you if you are still slower than the Evo.

Flexibility

I know on paper it lookes like the STi should be faster but the truth remains that it is not.

No... the "truth remains" that they are equal. Why can't you get this through your head? You keep saying the EVO is faster in the slalom and skidpad, do you realize how little that has to do with real performance? The STi has a more advanced drivetrain, the EVO counters by stickier tires and more aggressive suspension. The EVO is an excellent buy if you can get one for the $26-ish they're supposed to cost. The STi costs more, but it brings more to the table. Adding stickier tires and a more aggressive suspension to the STi to cancel the EVO's advantage is an EASY upgrade, while adding an EVO 7 drivetrain (to equal what the STi has) is quite costly.

I think everybody should just get emotional about it and fight.

No... the "truth remains" that they are equal. Why can't you get this through your head? You keep saying the EVO is faster in the slalom and skidpad, do you realize how little that has to do with real performance? The STi has a more advanced drivetrain, the EVO counters by stickier tires and more aggressive suspension. The EVO is an excellent buy if you can get one for the $26-ish they're supposed to cost. The STi costs more, but it brings more to the table. Adding stickier tires and a more aggressive suspension to the STi to cancel the EVO's advantage is an EASY upgrade, while adding an EVO 7 drivetrain (to equal what the STi has) is quite costly.[/QUOTE/]


WTH!!! Do you know what you are saying the slolom and cornering have everything to do with proformance! The slolom reflects the cars reaction to the drivers imput! The lataral G force is the messure of absolute friction (grip) these are the heart and soul of the sportscar. What planet do you live on? Yes the STi does have a more advanced drivetrain than the US spec Evo. But the J spec also has an electronicly controled center diff too. And it is only a matter of time before we catch up. To be fair I will admit that the STi does have a soother ride and more mild drivetrain which makes it a superior daily driver, but at the limit the Evo shines, and outruns the more "advanced" car. By the way the STi does not have the worlds most advanced drivetrain there is still one better, do you know what it is?

OMG WTF U R SO WORNG! I CNAT HAVE N INTTELIGENT ARGUMENT WITH PPL LIEK U!

not directed at either party, it was just necessary

:lol: hat was pretty funney. But you are trying to pass me off as stupid to protect yourself from the harsh reality that the Evo is faster and I am right. We both know better. I am making an open challenge find me stats from a reliable source showing that the STi can beat the MT numbers. (don't quote me some home grown website) If you can I will admit that I was wrong and if you cannot than you must admit that you were wrong. Do you accept or back down.

... By the way the STi does not have the worlds most advanced drivetrain there is still one better, do you know what it is?

There is one better that I know of in a production car, though that particular system is no longer made, the company simplified it because it was deemed overkill for their current generation of cars, and it cost about double what the STi currently does 10 years ago.

BTW, I am assuming that you're referring to the drivetrain minus the engine. There are several cars that arguments could be made for if the entire engine-to-wheels package is considered.

:iceslolan Oh yeah...per request earlier, EVO SUX, STi RULEZ :lol:

Glorious. The addition of the "x" and "z" to those statements made it all the more informative.

Well, just to even it out.

STI SUX EVO RULEZ U SUKC!1!!!!!!11111

WTH!!! Do you know what you are saying the slolom and cornering have everything to do with proformance!

Cornering is extremely important to a cars overall performance. Slalom and skidpad aren't Let me ask you a question, have you ever been on a track, or are you just basing all this from what you read from Motor Trend (who, as we already established, don't even actually run the times they post). Your argument is based off what some magazine guy who had probably 2 days or less experience with both cars wrote he THINKS he could run on a perfect day. :rolleyes:

The slolom reflects the cars reaction to the drivers imput!

No it doesn't. The slalom measure the cars ability to weave through a set of cones. Have you ever driven a slalom? I have. The cars width alone can be a major factor in getting a good slalom time, because it simply has to turn less to make it through the gates. Even acceleration power is a factor in a slalom test. A stock Honda CRX on those stock 13 inch all season tires can post similar slalom numbers as a Corvette, do you think that means CRX's handle as good as Vettes?

The lataral G force is the messure of absolute friction (grip)

While that's true, it is a minor concern is how well a car handles. How fast a car can lap a circle one time with infinite attempts matters little when you come to a track where the performance must be repeatable.

What planet do you live on?

I live in the real world, not magazine number land where you're stuck. Get out there and get some track experience, maybe then you'll understand why slalom and skidpad are so unimportant, you should be concerned with handling balance, predictability, confidence inspiring, and forgiveness. Guess what, I put a larger rear sway bar on my car. That makes my skidpad numbers worse, but my car is much, much faster through the corners.

But the J spec also has an electronicly controled center diff too.

"J spec" cars could wash themselves whenever they sense dirt for all I care, until it's here in this country it matters not to me.

And it is only a matter of time before we catch up.

Ah ha! I knew it. "Before we catch up". EVO troll!

To be fair I will admit that the STi does have a soother ride and more mild drivetrain which makes it a superior daily driver, but at the limit the Evo shines, and outruns the more "advanced" car.

I can build a track car for less than 10 grand that will absolutely embarass both of them on any track in the world. Therefore it matters little which one is a tenth or 2 faster, what matters is which one I could live with better.

By the way the STi does not have the worlds most advanced drivetrain there is still one better, do you know what it is?

Who said it does? :eek7: There are a lot of cars with more advanced drivetrains, I don't know what you mean by "one" better. You're probably going to say something stupid like a Skyline has the most advanced drivetrain in the world, right?

I am making an open challenge find me stats from a reliable source showing that the STi can beat the MT numbers.

1. Motor Trend did not run the times you read off their website or magazine. How many times do I have to say this?

2. I am making an open challenge to you to get off your ass and see how these cars actually perform instead or reading about it on the internet.

I think the BMW 7 series has the most advanced drivetrain in the world. Take THAT!

He was replying to a post I made that I deleted because it would just lead to a bunch of "nuh uh EVOs faster", "nuh uh STi's faster", "well this magazine ran this" and "well I know a guy whos uncle ran this" crap.

Damnit, the flaming happened anyways :lol:

I should have just dropped it after that post

Actually, the ej20, ej22 and ej25 are very proven motors. As a matter of fact, the "boxer" engine is used in tons of different applications today. Motorcycles a lot of times use the boxer design and have been for decades which proves that somehow they must work well if other companies and vehicle types use the motor and/or design.

I tried to bring peace to this thread. When that failed, i brought on sarcastic flaming.

OMG WTF LOL1

P.S. -

But as proven as the EJ motors are, are you actually going to argue that they're more proven than the 4G63?

Interesting, from EVO magazine's "car of the year"

Best Real World Cars...

1. Subaru Impreza STi Spec C
2. Vauxhall VX220 Turbo
3. Renault Clio V6
4. TVR T350C
5. Mitsubishi Evo VIII FQ-300
6. Nissan 350Z
7. Mini Cooper S Works
8. VW Golf R32
9. Mazda RX-8
10. Catherham R400 SV
11. BMW Z4

:biggrin:

Well, I'll argue that the design is more proven but ej serious motor is not. Each engine, no matter what type they are, are always different. The boxer engine in say a subaru impreza is gonna be slightly different in design than say a motorcycles. Give the EJ series of motor another year and i think people will really be surprised. It is a strong robust engine that has massive amounts of potential.

Well, I'll argue that the design is more proven but ej serious motor is not. Each engine, no matter what type they are, are always different. The boxer engine in say a subaru impreza is gonna be slightly different in design than say a motorcycles. Give the EJ series of motor another year and i think people will really be surprised. It is a strong robust engine that has massive amounts of potential.



I did not say that they did not have potential I just said that their new motor is unproven and the 4g-63 is. It might have much more potential but it is not known yet.

Actually, the ej20, ej22 and ej25 are very proven motors. As a matter of fact, the "boxer" engine is used in tons of different applications today. Motorcycles a lot of times use the boxer design and have been for decades which proves that somehow they must work well if other companies and vehicle types use the motor and/or design.


Where is the ej25 proven? It just came out a few months ago! I don't even know of a professional racer that uses it yet.

Cornering is extremely important to a cars overall performance. Slalom and skidpad aren't Let me ask you a question, have you ever been on a track, or are you just basing all this from what you read from Motor Trend (who, as we already established, don't even actually run the times they post). Your argument is based off what some magazine guy who had probably 2 days or less experience with both cars wrote he THINKS he could run on a perfect day. :rolleyes:



No it doesn't. The slalom measure the cars ability to weave through a set of cones. Have you ever driven a slalom? I have. The cars width alone can be a major factor in getting a good slalom time, because it simply has to turn less to make it through the gates. Even acceleration power is a factor in a slalom test. A stock Honda CRX on those stock 13 inch all season tires can post similar slalom numbers as a Corvette, do you think that means CRX's handle as good as Vettes?



While that's true, it is a minor concern is how well a car handles. How fast a car can lap a circle one time with infinite attempts matters little when you come to a track where the performance must be repeatable.



I live in the real world, not magazine number land where you're stuck. Get out there and get some track experience, maybe then you'll understand why slalom and skidpad are so unimportant, you should be concerned with handling balance, predictability, confidence inspiring, and forgiveness. Guess what, I put a larger rear sway bar on my car. That makes my skidpad numbers worse, but my car is much, much faster through the corners.



"J spec" cars could wash themselves whenever they sense dirt for all I care, until it's here in this country it matters not to me.



Ah ha! I knew it. "Before we catch up". EVO troll!



I can build a track car for less than 10 grand that will absolutely embarass both of them on any track in the world. Therefore it matters little which one is a tenth or 2 faster, what matters is which one I could live with better.



Who said it does? :eek7: There are a lot of cars with more advanced drivetrains, I don't know what you mean by "one" better. You're probably going to say something stupid like a Skyline has the most advanced drivetrain in the world, right?



HaHa you have single handedly proven exactly what I have been saying all along, you don't know what you are talking about. I don't even know where to begin the stupidity is overwelming. First off what do you think the mesuerment for cornering force is? The freeking skidpad duh everybody knows that. Secondly who says that motortrend does not run their tests I see them do it on Motor Trend Television all the time, do you feel stupid yet? Question for Mr rocket scientist, what allows a car to swerve through a set of cones at high speed. Duh a combanation of corering grip and driver response, you just made my point exactly without even knowing that you did. Do you really think that the STi is that much wider than the Evo? I already know how important weight balance and power distrabution are to handeling on a track, that is why I agreed with you on the STi being more refined, you see I (unlike you) can admit when my opposition has a valid point, try it some time it will make you look a whole lot smarter. And no it is not the Skyline (although that is an amazing car) it is the Porch 959 with computer/hydrolic controled front and rear diffs, and an electronic center diff. It was built as a project car to demonstrate the upper limits of drivetrain technology. Although it was built in 1985 it is still considerd the best in the world. You should read about it sometime it is amazing.

its so pointless to argue over these two great cars!!!!! :banghead: its always gonna come up to "Well this driver got" and this magazing posted and stupid sh*t like that. its even more pointless to come to the STI forum and say that the EVO did so much better in such and such magazine...thats like a supra owner going to the GTR forums and saying that his supra spanked a GTR....we all know every GTR owner alive would start saying things and in response the supra guy would keep tossing gas in the fire. in my opinion the STi,EVO,GTR, and supra are all in the same class of great performing cars. people say taht the STi's arent comparing but thats because were watching too many best motoring videos....ive seen these RS EVOs in a best motoring video take out 2 360 modenas and 2 BMW M3s. the STIs need to just get out there more and people will be more appreciative...its already a GREAT accomplishment from mistu and subaru so get 271hp and 300hp outta a 4 banger and accredit it with rally looks,turbos, and 4 wheel drive...thats my :2cents:

Let me make my statement one more time. Even if the STi comes close to the Evo it still does not fufill Subis promise to beat the Evo. The people at Subi better get on the ball if they are going to win this war, the future of the import scene is on the line here and they cannot afford to loose. I really do hope that Subi wins, but mitsubishi is not going to let them just take over the market without a fight. It is fierce compatition like this that makes cars evolve, and without it we would never advance.

The stroker version of a ej20 is either A) the ej22 which is a 2.2L or B) ej25 which is the 2.5L. They have had stroker kits for the ej20 for a while now.

The stroker version of a ej20 is either A) the ej22 which is a 2.2L or B) ej25 which is the 2.5L. They have had stroker kits for the ej20 for a while now.

Yes but I highly doubt that they are the exact same internals as the production ej25.

...And no it is not the Skyline (although that is an amazing car) it is the Porch 959 with computer/hydrolic controled front and rear diffs, and an electronic center diff. It was built as a project car to demonstrate the upper limits of drivetrain technology. Although it was built in 1985 it is still considerd the best in the world. You should read about it sometime it is amazing.

Actually, it was the Porsche 964 (89-94 911) Carrera 4 that I was thinking of. It used the same AWD/diff setup as the Porsche 959, and was actually mass produced, unlike the Porsche 959. There are a few other cars that arguments can be made for that were limited production like the Porsche 959, but nothing that can be considered a mass produced car like the Porsche 964 Carrera 4 was.

They had the same configuration not the same exact parts. The 911 was not considered to be as refined. And I did not say I was talking about mass produced cars, otherwise I would have mentioned the 911s, and the skylines and the Diablo....ect.

Listen kid, next time actually read what I post instead of skimming it over. I ask you again, have you ever actually raced a car on a track, have you ever actually driven a slalom or skidpad, or are you just a mag racer? I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this question, but lets hear it from you.

I said cornering is extremely important, but maximum cornering force isn't nearly as important. I'll go ahead and tell you that they're not the same thing, since you're years of experience watching car shows on TV obviously haven't taught you that. Why do people add larger rear sway bars? In most cases this decreases the amount of lateral acceleration a car can produce ("G"s, in case you don't know what I'm talking about), yet make the car faster. Why do you think that is? Because balance, forgiveness, and predictability are FAR more important than lateral acceleration. The only reason lateral acceleration and slalom are used in tests are because they're the only things you can actually put an objective number on.

Secondly who says that motortrend does not run their tests I see them do it on Motor Trend Television all the time, do you feel stupid yet?

No, actually you're making me feel smarter all the time. Like I said before, try actually READING what I say before replying. Did I say Motor Trend doesn't test the cars? No, I didn't. I said the numbers Motor Trend publishes aren't the numbers the car actually ran when they tested it. Read my very 1st post in this thread if you want to know why.

And no it is not the Skyline (although that is an amazing car) it is the Porch 959 with computer/hydrolic controled front and rear diffs, and an electronic center diff.

So you're saying the 959 is the only car in the world with a more advanced drivetrain than the STi? :rolleyes:

Since you like Magazine racing so much, why haven't you replied to the quote from EVO magazine I showed where the Spec C was named the best real world car, and the EVO FQ300 was down in 5th. In fact, the Spec C was so good, they also ran it in the same test with the "dream cars", and it still placed fairly high among the Lambo's, Ferrari's, etc.

P.S. you do know it's called the EVO FQ300, right? You've been calling it a VQ300 all through this thread, at 1st I thought it was a typo, but then I realized you really just know nothing about these cars other than what you read in Motor Trend. I wasn't going to bring it up, but sinse you insist on continuing to be an asshat I will.

I did not say that they did not have potential I just said that their new motor is unproven and the 4g-63 is. It might have much more potential but it is not known yet.

The 4g63 is proven alright, it's proven to break. A lot. I know quite a few people with modded 4g63's, I've been in more high power 4g63's than you'll probably ever even see in real life, and at any given time at least 40% of them aren't running. You ever hear any of these sayings:

"DSMs, making mechanics out of normal people since 1989"
"DSMs, fast, cheap, reliable, pick 2"

Or any number of other sayings about the unreliability of DSM's? They're literally famous for breaking. And guess what engine comes in them? 4g63...

4g-63

P.S. there is no hyphen in 4g63...

Now go back to your magazines, little EVO troll.

If you're not talking about mass produced cars, there are numerous examples I can come up with including rally specials, off-road vehicles, F1 race cars, kit cars and a few others I would throw in there because they could (or can) handle silly amounts of power reliably. Since we're talking about a production car here, it makes sense that we keep the comparison to a production car.
Though I still believe even though it was simplified a bit for the 964 over the 959, the 964 was still a slightly better design than the current STi.

Are we all done yet?

I'm done with it, it's like talking to a rock.

Jared, someday you'll understand... :smile:

Listen kid, next time actually read what I post instead of skimming it over. I ask you again, have you ever actually raced a car on a track, have you ever actually driven a slalom or skidpad, or are you just a mag racer? I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this question, but lets hear it from you.

I said cornering is extremely important, but maximum cornering force isn't nearly as important. I'll go ahead and tell you that they're not the same thing, since you're years of experience watching car shows on TV obviously haven't taught you that. Why do people add larger rear sway bars? In most cases this decreases the amount of lateral acceleration a car can produce ("G"s, in case you don't know what I'm talking about), yet make the car faster. Why do you think that is? Because balance, forgiveness, and predictability are FAR more important than lateral acceleration. The only reason lateral acceleration and slalom are used in tests are because they're the only things you can actually put an objective number on.



No, actually you're making me feel smarter all the time. Like I said before, try actually READING what I say before replying. Did I say Motor Trend doesn't test the cars? No, I didn't. I said the numbers Motor Trend publishes aren't the numbers the car actually ran when they tested it. Read my very 1st post in this thread if you want to know why.



So you're saying the 959 is the only car in the world with a more advanced drivetrain than the STi? :rolleyes:

Since you like Magazine racing so much, why haven't you replied to the quote from EVO magazine I showed where the Spec C was named the best real world car, and the EVO FQ300 was down in 5th. In fact, the Spec C was so good, they also ran it in the same test with the "dream cars", and it still placed fairly high among the Lambo's, Ferrari's, etc.

P.S. you do know it's called the EVO FQ300, right? You've been calling it a VQ300 all through this thread, at 1st I thought it was a typo, but then I realized you really just know nothing about these cars other than what you read in Motor Trend. I wasn't going to bring it up, but sinse you insist on continuing to be an asshat I will.



The 4g63 is proven alright, it's proven to break. A lot. I know quite a few people with modded 4g63's, I've been in more high power 4g63's than you'll probably ever even see in real life, and at any given time at least 40% of them aren't running. You ever hear any of these sayings:

"DSMs, making mechanics out of normal people since 1989"
"DSMs, fast, cheap, reliable, pick 2"

Or any number of other sayings about the unreliability of DSM's? They're literally famous for breaking. And guess what engine comes in them? 4g63...



P.S. there is no hyphen in 4g63...

Now go back to your magazines, little EVO troll.




First off I am not a freeking kid don't call me one. I have not started to get insulting neither should you. Secondly you are right I have never raced on a legal track, I am a broke collage student just trying to make ends meet, but I assure you that I will as soon as I can get a full time job again. You are half wrong on the swaybars thing; they do INCREASE maxamum cornering grip (to a point) by reducing body roll and minimizing camber changes, but there is a point at which you are right because too stiff of a bar will just prevent your independent suspension from working independently of the other side. And maxamum cornering force is a major factor in cornering do not discredit it. Yes stability and consistancy are equaly important and you are right there is not test for that, other than actualy racing on the track. Is the 959 the only car with a more advanced drietrain than the STi? That depends on who you ask, but the 959 is the only one that I know of with a significantly more advanced drivetrain. (computer controled diffs) Does that make sence to you now? Woops I did call it the VQ330 (not the VQ300) it is nissan that has the VQ engines (the engine in the Z is the VQ35DE) But you are right it is the FQ330 (not FQ300). Oh and if you want to make this some sort of name calling contest you should go back to preschool where you belong. (if not than please disregard the prevous statment) Stick the facts and reality and I will show you the same respect. As far as the reliability of the 4g63 goes that all depends on how well it is built, if you try to squeeze 500hp out of the stock internals on pump gas (yes I have had eclipse fans tell me that they have done this) than of course you are going to blow somthing, but if you build it right than it will work right. They are a good engine and the fact that they won many a WRC race proves that. Oh and lastly I reserch my information from more than just MT magazine, I do my serous studies from technical manuals for engineers, (I get data racommended by SAE) the only reason that I like to use MT is because they are fair and they have good drivers, unlike some magazines that I know of.

If you're not talking about mass produced cars, there are numerous examples I can come up with including rally specials, off-road vehicles, F1 race cars, kit cars and a few others I would throw in there because they could (or can) handle silly amounts of power reliably. Since we're talking about a production car here, it makes sense that we keep the comparison to a production car.
Though I still believe even though it was simplified a bit for the 964 over the 959, the 964 was still a slightly better design than the current STi.

Uh we are taliking about refined power delivary here, not just how much you can put to the ground. If that were the case we would be taking about top fuel dragsters.

I know I shouldn't do it.

Yeah. It'll only cause more problems.

But I have to. It's my duty as a sarcastic asshole.

*ahem*

Collage student! Glorious!!!

That is all.

I'm done with it, it's like talking to a rock.

Jared, someday you'll understand... :smile:


Don't assume that I don't listen or understand because I don't completly agree with you, I acutaly find your arguments quite interesting despite your bias anti-Evo agenda.