So, Saturday I got up bright and early in the morning to face the cold wet weather and drive an hour to the last autocross of the season for central IL. I stripped all the extra weight and loose items out of the car and after the drivers meeting we went to it! I ran in the STS novice class because it was my first time and I had a header. Everyone got 5 runs and I ended up taking 2nd in novice getting beaten by 2 seconds by a GIRL! After the official event was done we got to take what they call "fun runs" around the course for $1 each. All in all it was a total blast. I can't wait for the season to start again this coming spring!

Thats awesome man!...I hope we had autox here, but maybe im going to study in the US so ill autocross there, how long did it take you to go around the track?

Yeah i'm waiting for the autocross to start here in April.

autocross is fun, I just need more speed.

You suck Miataracer! :tongue: naw, j/k I say that because here in So. Cali our events get so many participants (usually 200-300+) that we only get 3 runs per driver, and NO "X" or fun runs due to time restraints. :crying: Can't beat the price to race though, even at $10 ($30 to enter an event) a run it's worth it I think. :)

So what was your times, and what was the best time of STS for the day in your event?

For the STS novice class the best time was like 55.6 or something like that and my time was 57.3. For regular STS the best time was like 52.something... I forget but for a totally stock suspension civic and my first autocross i don't think that was half bad.

On another note... you said it would be easier to get the back to rotate with a larger rear sway and no front right? I ask because I could get mine to rotate somewhat but not as much as I would have liked...

nice buddy.

im jealous. can't wait to get the teg out there on the course :biggrin: .

On another note... you said it would be easier to get the back to rotate with a larger rear sway and no front right? I ask because I could get mine to rotate somewhat but not as much as I would have liked...


Depending on your driving style, you my want a larger rear sway with no front sway. This usually reasults in oversteer . . .

On FWD cars, the large bar goes on the rear, not the front. Because the driving wheels are at the front of the car, you want increased roll stiffness at the rear. This improves traction at the driving wheels and reduces understeer which FWD set-ups almost ALWAYS have. A sway bar or larger one would be used at the front of FWD car only if the rear wheel lifts during steady cornering, and if the car leans too much. So use a front bar with caution unless you like heavy under-steer on your FWD car. Most sway bars are used on the front suspension, except FWD. It adds more roll stiffness to the front, which reduces rear suspension weight transfer in a turn. This delays or eliminates lifting one of the drive wheels, and may create an understeering by increasing the loading on the outside of the front tires.

Most production cars use a sway bar, usually in the front, but they are a compromise for average driving conditions. This means the sway is stiff enough to limit roll to acceptable point if the car is driven "normally". If hard driving is the normal operating condition for the car, typical production sways are not stiff enough. They allow so much roll that on a car with independent suspension the tires may operate at a positive camber angle in a turn. Stiffer/larger front sway make the car unpredictable. A car that rolls less is a lot more fun to drive. I could type a 5 page thing about sway bars on FWD, but I think this should do . . . . RWD is COMPLETELY opposite.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=147801

KrNxRaCer00: yeah man take your beauty to the track, ITRS are soooo sweeett...may not be very fast in a straigh line, althought they are fast, but in the twisties...HELL YEAH!! go and smack some damn SRTS on the track!

On another note... you said it would be easier to get the back to rotate with a larger rear sway and no front right? I ask because I could get mine to rotate somewhat but not as much as I would have liked...

Yup, that's correct. :cool: I have 22mm rear and 0mm front. ;) But the larger the rear, and the stiffer as well, the easier it'll be to rotate it when unloaded using the brakes. Just becareful it doesn't oversteer snap on you, then a spinout and possibly a DNF is inevitable. :(

And great job on your times! :naughty:

yeah mine would only rotate a bit when i came into the corner hot and gave it a pretty heavy thump on the brakes, and this was in the wet. even when i got it to give a little it was never even close to being able to make a full spin

by the way, the girl who won sts novice was running one of those new v spec sentras

If you think Autocross is fun NOW, just wait 'till you go to your first TRACK EVENT! 100 X BETTER than autocross, and you dont need to be an auto-x wiz to go. I went to my first track school after attending only 3 autocrosses. I guarantee that once you go to your first school, you will be hooked for life. :biggrin:

If you think Autocross is fun NOW, just wait 'till you go to your first TRACK EVENT! 100 X BETTER than autocross, and you dont need to be an auto-x wiz to go. I went to my first track school after attending only 3 autocrosses. I guarantee that once you go to your first school, you will be hooked for life. :biggrin:

That's what I'm waiting for! :cool:


Miataracer, pardon my forgetfullness, but what's your current suspension setup? Springs (rates if you know them), shocks, sizes of any bars you have, etc...?

If you think Autocross is fun NOW, just wait 'till you go to your first TRACK EVENT! 100 X BETTER than autocross, and you dont need to be an auto-x wiz to go. I went to my first track school after attending only 3 autocrosses. I guarantee that once you go to your first school, you will be hooked for life. :biggrin:
:iagree:Track time beats autocross any day!

www.racingschools.com (http://www.racingschools.com)
www.scca.org (http://www.scca.org)

my current suspension set up is all stock minus front sway bar... tired out 168,000 mile shocks, springs, suspension bushings...

and as for the track days... been there, done that, got the SCCA drivers liscence now I know its bed time I can't even spell that right... ugh

my current suspension set up is all stock minus front sway bar... tired out 168,000 mile shocks, springs, suspension bushings...

and as for the track days... been there, done that, got the SCCA drivers liscence now I know its bed time I can't even spell that right... ugh

LOL, we understand so it's all good. :p

But wow, pretty impressive. Now just add a rear bar if you don't already have one, and watch that rear end rotate a bit more next event. ;) Did you play with your tire pressures at the event? That can make a big differance too I've noticed.

Okay, Autocross is not my area of expertise. So autocross is on a track, and is one person runs at a time, and track a event is an actual race, like the SCCA, multiple people at the same time? Am I close? I haven't much expereince with autocross, so the terms elude me. I would like to make sure I know what I am talking about and hearing when it comes to this conversation, in that regard, lol.

autocross is just a big area of pavement with cones all over the place you have to find your way through. track day you actually hit the real deal race track.

SilverY2K, you did catch that I havent replaced anything on the suspension yet right? Just ditched the front sway bar because I broke it. I need new shocks, springs, and a rear sway at least. I would like to get some new bushing in it as well but we'll see... trying to save up for spring break in panama city now.

oh, and as for tire pressures, I ran 46 in the front, 40 in the rear. a local guy who also has a 94 EX coupe reccomended that to me

autocross is just a big area of pavement with cones all over the place you have to find your way through. track day you actually hit the real deal race track.

SilverY2K, you did catch that I havent replaced anything on the suspension yet right? Just ditched the front sway bar because I broke it. I need new shocks, springs, and a rear sway at least. I would like to get some new bushing in it as well but we'll see... trying to save up for spring break in panama city now.

oh, and as for tire pressures, I ran 46 in the front, 40 in the rear. a local guy who also has a 94 EX coupe reccomended that to me

Thanks for the explination. That really clears some things up for me :bigthumb:.

SilverY2K, you did catch that I havent replaced anything on the suspension yet right? Just ditched the front sway bar because I broke it. I need new shocks, springs, and a rear sway at least. I would like to get some new bushing in it as well but we'll see... trying to save up for spring break in panama city now.

Yup, caught that. Again WOW! :eek:

Ok, so no stock rear bar of course then. I'd say start out first with a 13mm Si rear bar unless you think the big guns are needed off the bat (22mm ITR rear bar). If you go ITR bar absolutely invest in the $65 Beak's kit (http://www.beaksproducts.com) to avoid any subframe tearout issues with the strain of a large size bar.

Yup, caught that. Again WOW! :eek:

Ok, so no stock rear bar of course then. I'd say start out first with a 13mm Si rear bar unless you think the big guns are needed off the bat (22mm ITR rear bar). If you go ITR bar absolutely invest in the $65 Beak's kit (http://www.beaksproducts.com) to avoid any subframe tearout issues with the strain of a large size bar.

I actually saw pics in a differnet forum once of a 6th gen civic hatch with the beaks kit and a 22mm, sway bar, and his sub-frame was torn to sh*t. Several guys with the 6th gens even had problems with the suspeinion technique bars (and no beaks kit). I imagine it's not to commen though. I know 6th gen civics (non-type-r) have a fairly weak sub-frame. They made it sound like the 5th gen's had a stronger sub-frame, which is why no 5th gens had the problem. Is that true? Either way, I agree, get a beaks kit. For $65, it's definstly worth it.

I ran 46 in the front, 40 in the rear. a local guy who also has a 94 EX coupe reccomended that to me

Youre not running that in a miata are you?

nope... Civic EX

I actually saw pics in a differnet forum once of a 6th gen civic hatch with the beaks kit and a 22mm, sway bar, and his sub-frame was torn to sh*t. Several guys with the 6th gens even had problems with the suspeinion technique bars (and no beaks kit). I imagine it's not to commen though. I know 6th gen civics (non-type-r) have a fairly weak sub-frame. They made it sound like the 5th gen's had a stronger sub-frame, which is why no 5th gens had the problem. Is that true? Either way, I agree, get a beaks kit. For $65, it's definstly worth it.

I've heard of this from friends too as well. That's the setup I have on my coupe, ITR rear bar and Beak's kit. Not sure of the hatch subframe is different than the coupe subframe, but reguardless, I still check mine periodically for any signs of tearout. So far so good. :thumbsup:

I've heard of this from friends too as well. That's the setup I have on my coupe, ITR rear bar and Beak's kit. Not sure of the hatch subframe is different than the coupe subframe, but reguardless, I still check mine periodically for any signs of tearout. So far so good. :thumbsup:

That's actually one of the reason's I took notice of it when I first saw it awhile ago. I remember you tellin me once the set-up you had, and when I read it I thought...hmm...that's SilverY2KCivic's setup. So you've heard of this too? You know of many cases of that happening? I'd imagine the big bar on a weak sub-frame could equal problems under the correct circumstances, even with a beak's (though it definatly helps out a bunch). A messed up sub-frame costs a grip to fix.

BTW, Miataracer, those were really good times/finishes you had for a stock suspension.

That's actually one of the reason's I took notice of it when I first saw it awhile ago. I remember you tellin me once the set-up you had, and when I read it I thought...hmm...that's SilverY2KCivic's setup. So you've heard of this too? You know of many cases of that happening? I'd imagine the big bar on a weak sub-frame could equal problems under the correct circumstances, even with a beak's (though it definatly helps out a bunch). A messed up sub-frame costs a grip to fix.


Yup, I've heard of it too. Only a few cases I've heard of through friends, but it seems like it's more often than I had thought it might be. But like you said, it all depends one on the person's car and mods done to it, and also on the driving style of the driver. I don't go pushing my car around corners often, I'll drive some canyon roads once in a while on weekends, but during the week, I'm all daily driver, no time for extreme handling. ;) I'm sure the rest of my setup has a bit to do with things as well. Plus a couple months ago I also put on some new 2kg stiffer springs on my Tein coilovers all around. A bit more bouncy, but it's giving me the exact handling I've been hunting for at the auto-X events I participate in.

But yes, the thicker the bar, the more strain it puts on the subframe and the mounting points of the bar to it. If a 22mm will still rip through a kit, imagine what the Mugen 26mm bar can do! :eek: :eek7: I've seen what tearout looks like before, and it's definitely not a pretty sight. Quite expensive to repair also like you said.

Yup, I've heard of it too. Only a few cases I've heard of through friends, but it seems like it's more often than I had thought it might be. But like you said, it all depends one on the person's car and mods done to it, and also on the driving style of the driver. I don't go pushing my car around corners often, I'll drive some canyon roads once in a while on weekends, but during the week, I'm all daily driver, no time for extreme handling. ;) I'm sure the rest of my setup has a bit to do with things as well. Plus a couple months ago I also put on some new 2kg stiffer springs on my Tein coilovers all around. A bit more bouncy, but it's giving me the exact handling I've been hunting for at the auto-X events I participate in.

But yes, the thicker the bar, the more strain it puts on the subframe and the mounting points of the bar to it. If a 22mm will still rip through a kit, imagine what the Mugen 26mm bar can do! :eek: :eek7: I've seen what tearout looks like before, and it's definitely not a pretty sight. Quite expensive to repair also like you said.

Yea, I can imagine what a Mugen 26mm bar could do! I imagine it wouldn't be pretty. I know the type-r subframe is stronger than the regular sub-frame by a decent amount. I suppose if someone tore the sub-frame and had the Type-R one properly welded on in it's place during the repairs, that 26mm Mugen might work then (why not add the beaks kit as well for insurence) without quite the major likelyhodd of a major tearout. That would for sure help eliminate worries about the 22mm and beaks kit. It'd be a lot harder to tear it out with that if you grafted on a Type-R sub-frame. But Again, why do it unless you've already had your sub-frame tear out, lol. Cuz it the regualr repair isn't cheap, I can imagine the horrific cost that would be, especially after the cost of importing the Type-R subframe.

The USDM ITR should have the same subframe as the JDM model, so importing costs shouldn't bew a factor. ;) Also, is the ITR subframe welded in like the normal Teg subframe, or is it bolted in like how say 240SX subframes are? :confused:

The USDM ITR should have the same subframe as the JDM model, so importing costs shouldn't bew a factor. ;) Also, is the ITR subframe welded in like the normal Teg subframe, or is it bolted in like how say 240SX subframes are? :confused:

I could be wrong, since I haven't actually seen onein person, but I remember hearing that the CTR type-r sub-frame is welded in...again, I could be wrong, but that's what I remember hearing. If you find out for sure, let me know. I am not sure if the ITR is like that, I haven't heard, thought I'd assume it was also. Again, if you find out for sure, let me know. I'll see what I can dig up too. The USDM and JDM ITR should have the same sub-frame, but does it differ from the CTR sub-frame?

I could be wrong, since I haven't actually seen onein person, but I remember hearing that the CTR type-r sub-frame is welded in...again, I could be wrong, but that's what I remember hearing. If you find out for sure, let me know. I am not sure if the ITR is like that, I haven't heard, thought I'd assume it was also. Again, if you find out for sure, let me know. I'll see what I can dig up too. The USDM and JDM ITR should have the same sub-frame, but does it differ from the CTR sub-frame?

I'm pretty sure the ITR subframe should differ from the CTR one since the ITR is heavier, and the CTR is a hatchback. Could be wrong though. :confused:

I'm pretty sure the ITR subframe should differ from the CTR one since the ITR is heavier, and the CTR is a hatchback. Could be wrong though. :confused:

That's something I would like to know. I'll let you know if I find anything out, and if you could do the same if you find out anything, that'd be cool.

That's something I would like to know. I'll let you know if I find anything out, and if you could do the same if you find out anything, that'd be cool.

Fo sho! :cool: