Hey Honda guys!
I'm a BMW owner (2002 330i) and my car's redline is a hair over 6,000 RPM. I was wondering how an engine is able to rev that high (9000 RPM right???) without blowing up.

Thanx

Good Engineering. Honda has a lot of experience building bikes with 10k+ red lines. I wouldn't be too hard to apply some of that experience to a car engine.

Thanks G-forces

Does that mean that BMW's or other cars that have a 6000 RPM redline are poorly engineered? What does that S2000 or the BMW M3 for that matter (10000 RPM redline) that other cars don't have?

Originally posted by tigerirons
Thanks G-forces

Does that mean that BMW's or other cars that have a 6000 RPM redline are poorly engineered? What does that S2000 or the BMW M3 for that matter (10000 RPM redline) that other cars don't have?
Not at all. BMW has some fine engineering. It just means that the goal of that motor is probably more usable low end torque. Where on the M3 and S2000 and any other high reving high hp motor the goal is power at top. This is better for track racing on a track where you'll spend most of your time in the upper rpm range.

Making a motor rev high takes a combination of things and it's more expensive to do to. Lighter valve train components to prevent valve float, lightened flywheels, micro polished cranks, high tolerances, etc. That's why you won't see a stock Echo reving to 9k rpm. :D

Originally posted by G-Forces
That's why you won't see a stock Echo reving to 9k rpm. :D LOL! Stock ECHOs don't have tachometers. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/sad/nixweiss.gif

E46 M3 have a redline of 8000rpm as well. So BMW also use the RPM Multiplyer method to extract power as well.

Honda use some very fine materials such as Fiber-Reinforced (FRM) cylinder walls. Basically they kept all the parts in the engine lightweighted so it can take the beaten of high rpms. Also the most advance VTEC system to date. i-VTEC is a start of a new generation and it's not included.

ford made an engine that revved to 10k back in 1960's that was a 3 liter v-8. It is the engine that all modern f-1 engines are based on. The LS-88 engine in the vette in the late 60's had 12.5:1 compression and revved to 7.5k and it was a 427 7 liters. Engines like this stopped being put in production cars when all the emissions requirements became so strict. Ferrari has been producing many High revving much larger displacement engines. back in the 50's GM produced a 1.8 liter engine that revved to 9k that produced 180HP....so it isn't like honda has the only technology like this...it's actually the exact opposite. Many car companies just choose to go a different route to make power.

If a car has a redline of 7500 or more, does that mean that there is less power in the low range? or more power overall?

You know how hp works?

Probably a little, but not enough. Would you be so kind as to explain to me?

Probably a little, but not enough. Would you be so kind as to explain to me?

Originally posted by tigerirons
Probably a little, but not enough. Would you be so kind as to explain to me?
HP = Torque* (rpm of engine)/5250
ex:
if your torqe at 4k was 200lb/ft then
HP = 200 * (4000/5250) = 152HP
so as your rpm's climb if your torque climbs or stays level you will always see an increase in HP. HP has an element of time in it, while torque does not. So torque by itself doesn't equate to speed because if you put a 10 ft long wrench on an axel and stood on it (lets say you weight 150 lbs) 150*10 = 1500 ft/lbs which is a ton of torque but since it is moving slowly (lets say 2 rpm's) you are getting low HP and the car aint moving fast...you HP at 2 rpms at 1500 ft/lbs is
.6HP :D

While HP is a contrived number (it is just a ratio * torque) it is interesting because it shows accel you can expect from a force applied by a spinning machine (your engine).

Just a wee bit of info that you may find interesting (or may not :p ). My FTO has a redline of 8,500rpm and a torque figure of 460Nm at the wheels (at 3,300rpm)! :D

Originally posted by FTO Girl
Just a wee bit of info that you may find interesting (or may not :p ). My FTO has a redline of 8,500rpm and a torque figure of 460Nm at the wheels (at 3,300rpm)! :D

us stupid americans are a) don't know what a Nm is compared to ft/lb and b) too lazy to look it up!! :D WEll, I am at least.

could you give us US units..and what is an FTO? What make and model? I am guessing it isn't available in the US.

also is it modified? turbo charged? both? :)

Originally posted by Z06Lover


us stupid americans are a) don't know what a Nm is compared to ft/lb and b) too lazy to look it up!! :D WEll, I am at least.

could you give us US units..and what is an FTO? What make and model? I am guessing it isn't available in the US.

also is it modified? turbo charged? both? :) Hehe, I don't know if this is totally right but I think it works out to be about 345 ft/lb of torque!

As far as your other questions. The FTO is (or was) produced by Mitsubishi Japan. It isn't available in the US (as far as I know anyway)! It is a 2L NA engine (mine has the MIVEC engine in it). The only mods done to my car so far are a catless 2 1/4" exhaust, Trust Airinx pod filter.

Feel free to ask me any questions (or you can also check out my website by clicking on the pic). :D

i think you are mistaken...i'm not as lazy as i thought :)
http://www.mitsubishi-fto.org/info/spec.htm
200HP was the high end one at 7500rpm
20.4kgf/m @ 6000 max torque
which is : 147ft/lb
about the same as my car, but my car makes 150ft/lbs at around 8400rpm, putting at right around 240 HP.
cool, car though...i will have to read up on it sometime.

good metric to stupid (read US :)) conversion site
http://www.ibdguy.com/metric.shtml

Originally posted by Z06Lover
i think you are mistaken...i'm not as lazy as i thought :)
http://www.mitsubishi-fto.org/info/spec.htm
200HP was the high end one at 7500rpm
20.4kgf/m @ 6000 max torque
which is : 147ft/lb
about the same as my car, but my car makes 150ft/lbs at around 8400rpm, putting at right around 240 HP.
cool, car though...i will have to read up on it sometime.

good metric to stupid (read US :)) conversion site
http://www.ibdguy.com/metric.shtml The figures you've quoted are at the engine; the figures I posted are what my car dyno'd at the wheels, so the torque has been multiplied by the gears and the torque converter. My car has 197 HP stock. :) Interesting that the torque is pretty much the same as yours.

Originally posted by FTO Girl
The figures you've quoted are at the engine; the figures I posted are what my car dyno'd at the wheels, so the torque has been multiplied by the gears and the torque converter. My car has 197 HP stock. :) Interesting that the torque is pretty much the same as yours.
have you dyno'd it? I know gear mulitply torque, but i haven't ever heard anyone quote torque numbers that way...oh well!! :) i wonder what my torque is at the wheels. I could probably figure it out with my gear ratio's and what not.

Is yours an auto? What kind of 1/4 miles does it run?

G-Forces explained perfectly well.

the s2000's 9000rpm redline comes from the reinforced cylinder head, very high quality pistons and most of all vtec. without the vtec system, the s2000 wont be able to spin at 9k. the vtec on the s2000 controlls the precise timing of opening and closing of the valves. thus allowing the revolution to increase.

lets not forget that the s2000 is a pure sport car and the bmw is a luxury sports sedan (or coupe). bmw's main focus is not on the performance but to take the driver and passengers from one destination to another in the most comfortable way. they want everyone in the car to be as comfortable as it can possibly be. Like said earlier by a PH member bmw did make sports car with redlines around 8000rpm ex. m5, m3, and other M cars. the M cars are sports cars and focused mainly on performance so they have high redlines to get upper power like those grand touring cars.

Ultimately all cars can achieve 9000rpm if the rpm limiter is removed. but it is not a good idea because it will melt the pistons and may blow up the engine, resulting in buying a new car

Originally posted by Z06Lover

have you dyno'd it? I know gear mulitply torque, but i haven't ever heard anyone quote torque numbers that way...oh well!! :) i wonder what my torque is at the wheels. I could probably figure it out with my gear ratio's and what not.

Is yours an auto? What kind of 1/4 miles does it run? Yep I had it dyno'd about a month ago. Mines an auto with a tiptronic style sequential shift. Not sure what it runs in the 1/4. I think the stock ones are mid 15's. What's yours run??

Originally posted by FTO Girl
Yep I had it dyno'd about a month ago. Mines an auto with a tiptronic style sequential shift. Not sure what it runs in the 1/4. I think the stock ones are mid 15's. What's yours run??

I personally have never run mine. But people who have range from high 14's to high 13's .....it really depends on the launch. Cool, car!! :) Are they really 19k new in Aus?

Originally posted by border_project
G-Forces explained perfectly well.

the s2000's 9000rpm redline comes from the reinforced cylinder head, very high quality pistons and most of all vtec. without the vtec system, the s2000 wont be able to spin at 9k. the vtec on the s2000 controlls the precise timing of opening and closing of the valves. thus allowing the revolution to increase.

lets not forget that the s2000 is a pure sport car and the bmw is a luxury sports sedan (or coupe). bmw's main focus is not on the performance but to take the driver and passengers from one destination to another in the most comfortable way. they want everyone in the car to be as comfortable as it can possibly be. Like said earlier by a PH member bmw did make sports car with redlines around 8000rpm ex. m5, m3, and other M cars. the M cars are sports cars and focused mainly on performance so they have high redlines to get upper power like those grand touring cars.

Ultimately all cars can achieve 9000rpm if the rpm limiter is removed. but it is not a good idea because it will melt the pistons and may blow up the engine, resulting in buying a new car

hmm...vtec has nothing to do with a high redline. F1 cars rev to 16k and they don't use vtec. Vtec in the S2000 is just two different cam profiles...nothing more. It allows the S2k to idle nicely and be compliant at low rpm's and still have good power in the upper range. High performance drag cars and F1, Indy cars use only one high performance cam...which of course makes them nasty beasts at low rpm's!! :) The grumble, the sputter, they die...but at high rpm's they run great!! :) A large displacement drag car (like top fuel) with 5000HP out of a blown 500+ cubic inch engine will run as high as 11k! They also only run one gear...one single 300+mph gear...amazing! :)
F1 cars will run up to 16k with 700-800HP out of 3 liter engine and they also only use one cam. Not the two cam profile like a vtec engine uses.


Variable valve timing is available in BMW's, toyota, ford and many other cars. Vtec is actually a fairly old system. The new i-vtec has variable timing on the exhaust and intake stroke which is pretty good. Toyota and BMW actually have more advanced systems. BMW's new 7 series engine actually has fully variable intake runners...which is very cool. You can control the amonth of air that goes into the valves by varying how high the valves go instead of an intake manifold...very very cool.

Originally posted by Z06Lover


I personally have never run mine. But people who have range from high 14's to high 13's .....it really depends on the launch. Cool, car!! :) Are they really 19k new in Aus? Thanks. They were never sold new in Australia and I don't think the GPX version which is what I've got was sold in New Zealand (the GR was due to an administrative mistake at Mitsubishi :p ). A 5-6 year old GPX in Australia goes for $AU35,000. I got mine for $NZ18,000 last year which was a really good price. They are actually more expensive this year. Prices are going up for them instead of down! :p

Originally posted by FTO Girl
Thanks. They were never sold new in Australia and I don't think the GPX version which is what I've got was sold in New Zealand (the GR was due to an administrative mistake at Mitsubishi :p ). A 5-6 year old GPX in Australia goes for $AU35,000. I got mine for $NZ18,000 last year which was a really good price. They are actually more expensive this year. Prices are going up for them instead of down! :p

That is pretty cool. My car blue books for more then i paid for it. I bought a hardtop for my S2000 also because I live in a rainy climate. That way I can drive it every day!! :)

Originally posted by Z06Lover


That is pretty cool. My car blue books for more then i paid for it. I bought a hardtop for my S2000 also because I live in a rainy climate. That way I can drive it every day!! :) Awesome! It's a really nice car. :D

you ever see thoes cars that rev to 18k? lamans cars and shit