America vs The World


AEstud
11-15-2001, 06:28 AM
Im nuetral on the subject but we had a debat on it in class a couple weeks ago and I just want to hear some other people's agruements and opinions.

YogsVR4
11-15-2001, 01:04 PM
Thats kind of a broad statement. Care to be a bit more specific?













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AEstud
11-15-2001, 07:53 PM
Domestic vs Import. Sorry about that, I thought that I stated but I guess not.

F20C
11-15-2001, 08:05 PM
Just wondering are you writing a essay on all these stuff? This is like the 3rd thread started by you comparing cars.

AEstud
11-15-2001, 08:10 PM
No, Im not writing an essay even tho I have to admit does seem like it a little bit. Im just very inquizitive about cars. Thats all.

YogsVR4
11-17-2001, 10:17 AM
I think your topic is to broad. There are so many things that it would take hours responding. Why dont you try going with a smaller topic like the economic models price/reliability or insurance costs or a billion other combinations. With the blanket question you have posed, the best you'll get is a blanket statement. My favorite style of cars are imports (Ferrari). Domestics are the esiest to keep running if theres a problem.













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CanadianG
11-26-2001, 04:32 PM
You gotta exclude some of the imported junk b4 you get my vote, but at the same time you gotta exclude north american junk!

Imported : Lada, hyundai, daewoo.............etc

Domestic: FORD


hehehehhehhehe

are we talking about performance?
Luxury?
Fit n finish?
Warranty?
What what?
We need more to properly vote!

AEstud
11-26-2001, 05:24 PM
Luxery and performance. And with performance you get more "bang for your buck" with domestic b/c there's no long distance shipping really when you consider the world. With luxery I'd have to go with imports.

Pennzoil GT-R
06-12-2002, 12:46 PM
easily imports(jap, european). see wot american cars have compared to the others:

LUXURY-bentley, rolls, mercedes, BMW, lexus. America has nothing to compete with the likes of these

PERFORMANCE-Any Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Pagani, Aston etc. Americas best car since the awesome GT40 is the Viper and the Corvette, both of which arent too happy with cornering.

ECONOMY-The little Jap cars have this one in the bag

PRICE-This is perhaps the only place where America are stronger than Europe, although Jap cars kick Americas ass in this one

America may be the best at just about everything else (except football), but unfortunately Europe and Japan have them easily beaten at making good cars.

FYRHWK1
06-12-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Pennzoil GT-R
easily imports(jap, european). see wot american cars have compared to the others:

LUXURY-bentley, rolls, mercedes, BMW, lexus. America has nothing to compete with the likes of these

PERFORMANCE-Any Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Pagani, Aston etc. Americas best car since the awesome GT40 is the Viper and the Corvette, both of which arent too happy with cornering.

ECONOMY-The little Jap cars have this one in the bag

PRICE-This is perhaps the only place where America are stronger than Europe, although Jap cars kick Americas ass in this one

America may be the best at just about everything else (except football), but unfortunately Europe and Japan have them easily beaten at making good cars.

I hope this is your opinion.

Fliquer
06-12-2002, 08:08 PM
Americans have very different tastes than the rest of the world. We Americans, in general, like stuff big, comfy, cheap, and EASY. We dont want our daily commute to require more effort than an automatic toilet. We build our roads flat and straight. Our pockets are deep and our gas is (relatively) inexpensive.

This is why we buy so many SUVs and why cars like the Taurus and Impala were created. The Toyota Camry too owes its success to our tastes; the #1 sedan that cant sell more than 1000 units a year in Europe (as opposed to 100,000+ in the USA).

So I say dont try to compare the Camaro to the Integra, because its like comparing apples to oranges.

Pennzoil GT-R
06-13-2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by FYRHWK1


I hope this is your opinion.

this is my opinion yeh, but unfortunately for american car manufacturers, it is also the opinion of pretty much everyone else in europe and asia

LadyBuickGS
06-13-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Pennzoil GT-R


this is my opinion yeh, but unfortunately for american car manufacturers, it is also the opinion of pretty much everyone else in europe and asia


Like everyone over in Europe and Asia has driven a true American car?
C'mon!:rolleyes:

del
06-13-2002, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Fliquer
Americans have very different tastes than the rest of the world. We Americans, in general, like stuff big, comfy, cheap, and EASY. We dont want our daily commute to require more effort than an automatic toilet. We build our roads flat and straight. Our pockets are deep and our gas is (relatively) inexpensive.

This is why we buy so many SUVs and why cars like the Taurus and Impala were created. The Toyota Camry too owes its success to our tastes; the #1 sedan that cant sell more than 1000 units a year in Europe (as opposed to 100,000+ in the USA).

So I say dont try to compare the Camaro to the Integra, because its like comparing apples to oranges.

very good point.

Pennzoil GT-R
06-13-2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by LadyBuickGS



Like everyone over in Europe and Asia has driven a true American car?
C'mon!:rolleyes:

this may come as a surprise to you but GM, Ford etc. DO export alot of their cars to europe

FYRHWK1
06-13-2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Pennzoil GT-R


this may come as a surprise to you but GM, Ford etc. DO export alot of their cars to europe

they dont send over any Z06s if i remember right, they only export automatic corvettes due to emissions reasons. Fbodies dont go over because the demand isnt there, mustangs may, i'm not too sure on that one. the european community doesnt seem to understand these cars are made to be modified, and that they can be done so cheaply, vipers excluded. but, to each his own.

LadyBuickGS
06-13-2002, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Pennzoil GT-R


this may come as a surprise to you but GM, Ford etc. DO export alot of their cars to europe

I was refering to TRUE american cars, like Camaro's, Mustangs, Grand Prix's, Cadillacs etc...

Most of the Fords that are sent over to Europe are just 4 cyl Escorts or other low end models.

Believe me, most of those people haven't driven the REAL McCoy! Most of Europe drives economy cars anyway because of the high prices on gas and a lot of the roads are much smaller than over in the US.

So, if they've never driven one of the better American cars, then their opinions don't really count. IMOP.

Pennzoil GT-R
06-13-2002, 03:03 PM
we do get a wider variety than u seem to think. people import them personally, and most of them get road tested by european magazines even if they arent going to be imported here.

Pennzoil GT-R
06-13-2002, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by LadyBuickGS


I was refering to TRUE american cars, like Camaro's, Mustangs, Grand Prix's, Cadillacs etc...

Most of the Fords that are sent over to Europe are just 4 cyl Escorts or other low end models.

Believe me, most of those people haven't driven the REAL McCoy! Most of Europe drives economy cars anyway because of the high prices on gas and a lot of the roads are much smaller than over in the US.

So, if they've never driven one of the better American cars, then their opinions don't really count. IMOP.

out of the cars u mentioned, there is the odd camaro that has been imported personally. mustangs are officially imported. grand prixs are rare, but r around if you know where to look. cadillacs r officially imported but there sales r so low they may aswell not bother. From readin other forums it seems that vipers seem to the main "REAL McCoy" of american performance cars, and they r by no means the most popular cars over here in a sportscar world full of ferraris and porsches.

All of the american cars we get over here are very good in a straight line but are not too good on corners, probly because american roads r long and strait comapred to european roads.

btw smaller roads are better for driving on as they test the driver and the car more

LadyBuickGS
06-13-2002, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Pennzoil GT-R
we do get a wider variety than u seem to think. people import them personally, and most of them get road tested by european magazines even if they arent going to be imported here.

And you think European Mags are going to give props to Good American cars?:rolleyes:

I never said American cars didn't exist over there, but the general public over in Europe and Asia have never experienced the REAL McCoy:D

I have a friend who travels often to the UK and Europe. He said he rarely saw an imported American car. They were mostly smaller European, German, or American economy cars.

Let's face it American cars are made for American roads...so does that make them inferior to European & Japanese cars? I think not.

"America may be the best at just about everything else (except football), but unfortunately Europe and Japan have them easily beaten at making good cars."

You can't compare the three... We are three different societies, with different needs in a car.

TrvlynAlec
06-13-2002, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by LadyBuickGS
"Europe and Japan have them easily beaten at making good cars."

You can't compare the three... We are three different societies, with different needs in a car.

True... True.

Pennzoil GT-R
06-13-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by LadyBuickGS


I never said American cars didn't exist over there, but the general public over in Europe and Asia have never experienced the REAL McCoy:D

I have a friend who travels often to the UK and Europe. He said he rarely saw an imported American car. They were mostly smaller European, German, or American economy cars.

You can't compare the three... We are three different societies, with different needs in a car.

Give me examples of what you mean by the Real McCoy, and i will tell you if i have ever seen them in Europe, and in what quantity. You're friend will not have seen the imports because they are not very common, especially in countries such as France. You can find any American car over here if you know where to look.

You have a very good point saying you cant compare the 3, but the forum is titled America vs. the World, and it is now just you're American opinion vs. my European opinion. We are probly both be right in our own continent

Fliquer
06-13-2002, 10:20 PM
Too bad Ford's best stuff isn't available on these shores.... :cry:

http://www.km77.com/marcas/ford/mondeo_02/st220/gra/trescuardel1.jpg
http://www.km77.com/marcas/ford/focus_00/focus_rs/gra/trescuardelext.jpg

LadyBuickGS
06-14-2002, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Pennzoil GT-R


Give me examples of what you mean by the Real McCoy, and i will tell you if i have ever seen them in Europe, and in what quantity. You're friend will not have seen the imports because they are not very common, especially in countries such as France. You can find any American car over here if you know where to look.

You have a very good point saying you cant compare the 3, but the forum is titled America vs. the World, and it is now just you're American opinion vs. my European opinion. We are probly both be right in our own continent

He was mostly over in England and went sight seeing all over. He made a remark to me that he didn't see that many imported American cars. I think his friend drove some kind of Ford, but it looked different than the ones over here. I think it was some kind of Escort or Focus.

He recently bought a Hyundai Accent, and he told his friend over in England about it. His friend said they have Hyundais over there too, and he seemed to think they were pretty good. I don't know how true this is or not. There's a lot of negativity towards Hyundai & Kia over here in the states. I'm not sure how you guys perceive them over there.

Yes, we are allowed to share our opinions and I really don't mind hearing yours at all.;)

I just take a little offense when people make negative statements about American cars and don't really back up what they are saying. I really don't have anything negative to say about European or Japanese cars. Most are really good in my book. A few years ago I drove a Nissan Maxima and it was really a lovely car! I turned it in, because I was leasing it and decided to go the buying direction.

How many American cars have you driven, by the way?

Pennzoil GT-R
07-18-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by LadyBuickGS


He was mostly over in England and went sight seeing all over. He made a remark to me that he didn't see that many imported American cars. I think his friend drove some kind of Ford, but it looked different than the ones over here. I think it was some kind of Escort or Focus.

He recently bought a Hyundai Accent, and he told his friend over in England about it. His friend said they have Hyundais over there too, and he seemed to think they were pretty good. I don't know how true this is or not. There's a lot of negativity towards Hyundai & Kia over here in the states. I'm not sure how you guys perceive them over there.

Yes, we are allowed to share our opinions and I really don't mind hearing yours at all.;)

I just take a little offense when people make negative statements about American cars and don't really back up what they are saying. I really don't have anything negative to say about European or Japanese cars. Most are really good in my book. A few years ago I drove a Nissan Maxima and it was really a lovely car! I turned it in, because I was leasing it and decided to go the buying direction.

How many American cars have you driven, by the way?

the cars over here have generally taughter chassis' over here because roads are much more twisty than the roads in the US. They arent too far off being the same cars though.

Hyundia and Kia are considered to be a cheap means of getting from A to B, but not adding anything special to the package.

And to be honest i would probably take offence to someone sayin bad things about my country, so i apologise for that, but in England at least we reckon Americans seem to think that muscle is the only way to go, and all we ever hear from the US is how brilliant the Viper and the Corvette are. But when cars like those are thrown around our testing country roads they can never hack the pace despite all the hype. I guess American cars will never handle like European cars though because the 2 are designed for different environments.

Personally i have never driven an American car, but i have only ever driven 4 cars up to town, all under 1200cc (dunno if its the same in the states, but you have no chance on getting insured on anything over 1600cc, so i havent yet had the chance to drive anything fast). If you ever get the chance to drive a performance car like a Ferrari the take it, because you will then see why i point out the differences between you're performance cars and ours.

Pennzoil GT-R
07-18-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by LadyBuickGS


He was mostly over in England and went sight seeing all over. He made a remark to me that he didn't see that many imported American cars. I think his friend drove some kind of Ford, but it looked different than the ones over here. I think it was some kind of Escort or Focus.

He recently bought a Hyundai Accent, and he told his friend over in England about it. His friend said they have Hyundais over there too, and he seemed to think they were pretty good. I don't know how true this is or not. There's a lot of negativity towards Hyundai & Kia over here in the states. I'm not sure how you guys perceive them over there.

Yes, we are allowed to share our opinions and I really don't mind hearing yours at all.;)

I just take a little offense when people make negative statements about American cars and don't really back up what they are saying. I really don't have anything negative to say about European or Japanese cars. Most are really good in my book. A few years ago I drove a Nissan Maxima and it was really a lovely car! I turned it in, because I was leasing it and decided to go the buying direction.

How many American cars have you driven, by the way?

the cars over here have generally taughter chassis' over here because roads are much more twisty than the roads in the US. They arent too far off being the same cars though.

Hyundia and Kia are considered to be a cheap means of getting from A to B, but not adding anything special to the package.

And to be honest i would probably take offence to someone sayin bad things about my country, so i apologise for that, but in England at least we reckon Americans seem to think that muscle is the only way to go, and all we ever hear from the US is how brilliant the Viper and the Corvette are. But when cars like those are thrown around our testing country roads they can never hack the pace despite all the hype. I guess American cars will never handle like European cars though because the 2 are designed for different environments.

Personally i have never driven an American car, but i have only ever driven 4 cars up to now, all under 1200cc (dunno if its the same in the states, but you have no chance on getting insured on anything over 1600cc, so i havent yet had the chance to drive anything fast). If you ever get the chance to drive a performance car like a Ferrari the take it, because you will then see why i point out the differences between you're performance cars and ours.

LadyBuickGS
07-18-2002, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Pennzoil GT-R


the cars over here have generally taughter chassis' over here because roads are much more twisty than the roads in the US. They arent too far off being the same cars though.

Hyundia and Kia are considered to be a cheap means of getting from A to B, but not adding anything special to the package.

And to be honest i would probably take offence to someone sayin bad things about my country, so i apologise for that, but in England at least we reckon Americans seem to think that muscle is the only way to go, and all we ever hear from the US is how brilliant the Viper and the Corvette are. But when cars like those are thrown around our testing country roads they can never hack the pace despite all the hype. I guess American cars will never handle like European cars though because the 2 are designed for different environments.

Personally i have never driven an American car, but i have only ever driven 4 cars up to now, all under 1200cc (dunno if its the same in the states, but you have no chance on getting insured on anything over 1600cc, so i havent yet had the chance to drive anything fast). If you ever get the chance to drive a performance car like a Ferrari the take it, because you will then see why i point out the differences between you're performance cars and ours.


Same here, Hyundai & Kias are low on the todem pole. It's basically a throw away car. Though I've heard better things about the Kia Sodona (minivan). It did well in crash tests.

Apology accepted. ;) No hard feelings. :D

Actually I don't think that the more recent Corvette's are that brilliant. About 2 years ago I worked at a Chevy dealer and customers did nothing but complain about them. They were constantly in the shop for various problems. The older Corvettes seem to hold up better, from what I've heard through the Grapevine.

I believe there's a new Corvette coming out in 2003. (correct me someone if I'm wrong.) It looks nice and hopefully it will be more reliable. As for Vipers, I don't know much about them. There's not that many out on the roads...at least where I live. They are nice looking though.

And I don't believe that all Americans believe in muscle. You wouldn't believe all the Japanese & European cars that are over here. So I guess everyone has different tastes.

It would be nice to drive a Ferrari, but I dout it will ever happen, unless I stumble across $300,000.00 or get a rich friend who happens to own one. :rolleyes:

Hopefully one day you'll drive an American car, which is an experience all it's own. :sun: Enjoy it for what it is....a primo/luxury ride'n machine. LOL!

Ssom
07-19-2002, 03:20 AM
Origionally posted by Pennzoil GT-R
this may come as a surprise to you but GM, Ford etc. DO export alot of their cars to europe

Well that actually depends what you mean by export........If you are saying the car companies are taking them out of the factory, give them to teh European dealers then that is rather wrong. Ford Europes line of KA, Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, Galaxy and Puma (Which I think has bottomed out) are all Euro sourced, the Cougar, Escape and Explorer are the only ones that came officially from the US recentley and the Explorer and Cougar left not long ago, which only leaves teh Escape (Although I don't have any figures for the Escape European sales).

As for GM's European line up, the Corsa, Astra, Vectra, Tigra, Omega, Frontera, Zafira and VX220 all coming from Europe and the Agila from Japan. Exports of the Camaro, Corvette, Blazer and Seville STS have stopped in Britain (Can't speak for the rest of Europe) So that leaves nothing on the American front for GM..........

But is people bringing thier cars over from the US is what you mean, I can't argue, but that, my friend, is not exporting

YogsVR4
07-19-2002, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by LadyBuickGS


I believe there's a new Corvette coming out in 2003. (correct me someone if I'm wrong.)

2004 from the looks of it. http://www.motortrend.com/sept00/c6vette/c6vette_f.html













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Pennzoil GT-R
07-19-2002, 10:08 AM
on the note of exports, the explorer was stopped due to stories in the press of unexpected explosions or something like that. the Cougar never really took off, and the Escape isnt in Britain.

As to the GM cars, nope we dont get the Camaro, they are all private imports. I think we may get the Corvette, there certainly are enough of them around. The Seville was exported but received such a slating in the press that noone bought it, hence why it was stopped in favour of a future model to be brought over. Some US cars are imported officially, but i guess what i meant originally when i said exported was private exports/imports.

Ssom
07-19-2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Pennzoil GT-R
on the note of exports, the explorer was stopped due to stories in the press of unexpected explosions or something like that. the Cougar never really took off, and the Escape isnt in Britain.

As to the GM cars, nope we dont get the Camaro, they are all private imports. I think we may get the Corvette, there certainly are enough of them around. The Seville was exported but received such a slating in the press that noone bought it, hence why it was stopped in favour of a future model to be brought over. Some US cars are imported officially, but i guess what i meant originally when i said exported was private exports/imports. The Escape is sold in Britain as the Maverick, sorry for the confusion:) :D

Pennzoil GT-R
07-19-2002, 09:10 PM
yeh we got the Maverick, not too popular though. I think European's views on US cars and the US in general may stem from more than just the automotive industry. We kinda consider America as a whole to be ignorant of the world and because they are economically the strongest country in the world they think that nowhere else matters (i do realise that alot of people arent like this, its just the way Americans are portrayed sometimes over here). We then just pick up on any floor you're cars have and exploit them, for example the dulled handling to cope with the long straight roads you have doesnt suit our twisty roads at all, whereas our harder set ups may not be good for long hauls cross country

LadyBuickGS
07-21-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by YogsVR4


2004 from the looks of it. http://www.motortrend.com/sept00/c6vette/c6vette_f.html


Thanks for correcting me. ;)

I always seem to get my numbers mixed up...:mad:

pimpclipse
05-04-2003, 02:31 PM
I just have one small thing to say. U wont be able to achieve the full potential of a z06, viper hennessey (which if i read correctly is a production car) or gts or whatnot on european roads. With american car companies they dont have to appeal to the world market just the american one. Countries like japan which is the second richest in the world rely heavily on export. So their cars have to be more reliable. Building turbo 4 cyl is more economic than makin 525 cubic inches of american muscle. Muscle is better for american roads. Euro and jap industries try to appeal to the world market.

2strokebloke
05-04-2003, 10:05 PM
What about the autobahn? And if American companies are trying their best to cater to American motorist's needs, then why are imported cars outselling them in their domestic market? something must seriously be wrong here!, I don't know what it is because I think buying new cars is a waste of money, but somebody please tell me!

YogsVR4
05-05-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by 2strokebloke
What about the autobahn? And if American companies are trying their best to cater to American motorist's needs, then why are imported cars outselling them in their domestic market? something must seriously be wrong here!, I don't know what it is because I think buying new cars is a waste of money, but somebody please tell me!

Imports are not outselling domestics in the US. While it is true that the percentage of the market share has dropped it is not true that they are being outsold.

As you can see by the following graph (http://www.covisint.com/res/csm/articles/graphs/2002_big3.gif) the sum of the domestics is more then the imports. It does show that the sum of the Asian imports are more then any individual domestic maker, but that number include Honda, Nissan and Toyota. If those were broken out like GM and Ford then the highest single seller would be GM by a fair margin. Note: I don't consider Chrysler to be a domestic brand. They are owned by Mercedes regardless of the whole "merger" bs.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/4345382002_big3.jpg













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Hudson
05-05-2003, 01:30 PM
As was stated, import BRAND vehicles do not outsell domestic BRAND vehicles in the US. If you lump in the Chrysler Group side of DaimlerChrysler (Mercedes-Benz does not own the Chrysler Group, DaimlerChrysler does), the BIG 3 make up 65-70% of the US market. If you use North American-built as your criteria, the number rises to around 85-90%. Imported vehicles (those not sourced from NAFTA) make up a small market in the US, and import BRAND vehicles make up a slightly larger market, but still not close to "most" of the market.

If you don't count Chrysler as a "domestic" then you shouldn't count Saab, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Aston Martin as "imports."

YogsVR4
05-05-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Hudson
If you don't count Chrysler as a "domestic" then you shouldn't count Saab, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Aston Martin as "imports."

While I don't have any hard numbers to back this up, I doubt the combination of those product lines are even 1% of domestic sales.


We can debate what domestic means, but to me Chrysler is run by Germans from Germany. As long as the corporate headquarters are outside the the states then it is an import car. My Honda was made in Marysville Ohio, but its still an imported car.













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2strokebloke
05-05-2003, 06:11 PM
Hmmmm, I can't remember where I read it, but I saw a graph indicating that domestic brands had been outsold by foreign brands last year.
As far as I know, this was only for passenger cars, so probably did not include other vehicles such as trucks etc.

Hudson
05-05-2003, 09:58 PM
The headquarters for the DaimlerChrysler Corporation (also known as the Chrysler Group) is in Auburn Hills, Michigan. DaimlerChrysler Corporation is wholly-owned by DaimlerChrysler AG, headquartered in Germany.

edonis
05-16-2003, 12:00 PM
American cars are not popular here at all. Chrysler are the cars with the most faults with, and Chrysler owners are the least satisfied of their vehicles (Toyota is the most satisfied, then Honda, and saab) This is the only american brand we get here in Norway that sells well. Of coarse you can get a Caddy and a Buick, but they aren't selling any. American seats are not as good as european- thats one huge difference. American seats are very broad with no support, so on B-roads you slide off the seats :confused: and they don't sit on turns as well as european cars do.

Another thing we don't like about american cars is that they consume a huge deal of fuel, and fuel is really expensive here in europe, especially in Norway. And they get very expensive because of their 3l and 4L engines but with only 170 and 200hp. Euro cars get the same power out of 2L engines..

Also, the styling is different. I don't really like the american styling, no offence though! Wouldn't you rather have a Saab 9-3 over a Malibu Maxx (two altogether different cars, though based on the same Epilpson chassis by GM. Saab is more expensive so not a real fair comparison, but just think the malibu maxx is crap ugly)

The new Ford Mustang is an altogether different story. This is a car to be proud of, America! :D

Polygon
05-16-2003, 12:53 PM
I don't look at the argument as black and white as domestic vs. import. There is such a huge gray area these days that you really can't.

Iím more of a person that dislikes certain cars, domestic or import.

LSR
05-16-2003, 12:58 PM
This is a good topic. Funny thing is, I've had this debate with Americans before. I see this battle as:

TVR
MG X Power SV (the only MG with serious power - can be tuned to 965hp from factory)
Ferrari
Porsche
Lamborghini
BMW
Audi
Mercedes

vs.

Ford
Chrysler
Dodge
Lincoln
Pontiac
Chevrolet

In this battle, I see Europe winning every time. Why? Better everything. Performance, reliability, etc. Also, better styling, technology.

edonis
05-16-2003, 12:59 PM
yep.. there's am-crap, eurotrash, and japanese shit...

FYRHWK1
05-17-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by LSR
This is a good topic. Funny thing is, I've had this debate with Americans before. I see this battle as:

TVR
MG X Power SV (the only MG with serious power - can be tuned to 965hp from factory)
Ferrari
Porsche
Lamborghini
BMW
Audi
Mercedes

vs.

Ford
Chrysler
Dodge
Lincoln
Pontiac
Chevrolet

In this battle, I see Europe winning every time. Why? Better everything. Performance, reliability, etc. Also, better styling, technology.

Reliable ferrari? lamborghini? TVR? you must be joking, on top of that you're comparing companies that built cars in the price range above GM, ford and so on, the 2 arent comparable. If you want to bring those companies into it then you've left our Mosler and Saleens S7, you've ignored the fact that the Z06 handles and runs with the 360modena and porsche 911, for 1/3 the price, in the end how much you get for you dollar is what matters most and in terms of performance potential, america can't be beaten.

Jimster
05-21-2003, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by FYRHWK1


Reliable ferrari? lamborghini? TVR? you must be joking, on top of that you're comparing companies that built cars in the price range above GM, ford and so on, the 2 arent comparable. If you want to bring those companies into it then you've left our Mosler and Saleens S7, you've ignored the fact that the Z06 handles and runs with the 360modena and porsche 911, for 1/3 the price, in the end how much you get for you dollar is what matters most and in terms of performance potential, america can't be beaten.


TVR are not very well built I'll hand you that- but any Ferrari built after 1990 (When Ferrari seeked help from two blokes from Toyota who got the factory organised and introduced a better work ethic) or Lamborghini built post-Audi are just as (If not more) reliable than anything America makes thank you very much.

FYRHWK1
05-21-2003, 03:54 AM
Ferrari is still plagued by the occasional electrical gremlin and lamborghini has never been known for its clutches lasting, especially with that heavy, AWD versions of the diablo (I say that as if there's a light version available) for the price of those cars there had better not be a single thing that ever goes wrong in the lifetime of the car, besides of course needing an engine or transmission rebuild every 100K.

Jimster
05-21-2003, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
Ferrari is still plagued by the occasional electrical gremlin and lamborghini has never been known for its clutches lasting, especially with that heavy, AWD versions of the diablo (I say that as if there's a light version available) for the price of those cars there had better not be a single thing that ever goes wrong in the lifetime of the car, besides of course needing an engine or transmission rebuild every 100K.


Electrical gremlins are facts of life- every maker has cars that are plagued by the odd electrical gremlin (Lancia and Alfa romeo being the worst) and the Murcielago has a far stronger clutch than it's predesessor.

FYRHWK1
05-21-2003, 11:08 PM
Now i realize this isn't going to happen (one of my reasons for not liking supercars past novelty) but for the money it shouldn't ever have electrical problems, why isn't each one put through enough testing to find them all? As to the clutch well i'm glad, that wouldn't be very impressive to sit there in a 250K car smoking the clutch and being towed home.

Jimster
05-22-2003, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by FYRHWK1
Now i realize this isn't going to happen (one of my reasons for not liking supercars past novelty) but for the money it shouldn't ever have electrical problems, why isn't each one put through enough testing to find them all? As to the clutch well i'm glad, that wouldn't be very impressive to sit there in a 250K car smoking the clutch and being towed home.



While that sounds good in theory- it'd slow down production too much when doing it- and considering the rahter low occurance rate of Ferraris being hit by gremlins it is a pointless exercise- especially since if a car is hit by a gremlin the Ferrari customer care lot will take of it straight away;)

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