This is not to put down anyones car personally... or sound hateful, my best hunting buddy is a only will have Japanese cars/bikes...

I personally don't Hate any car or race of people...

What grips me, is all these kids spurting off how they like to kill off V8's in thier rice rockets, meaning of course how they like to pick on the old fashion "LOW technoligy American V8's with those red necks in them who still think they rule the streets..

I know there are a few 12 and 11 second jap cars running the streets... in every state in many cities... but remember for every one 11 second jap car running the streets, there is a 7-8 second American car somewhere

Just Remember, those old low tech V8 are much more closer to stock than a dinky 2.0 or 3.0 engine with a million tons of turno boost...

These guys running inline 4-6's in Toyota and Mitsubishi's brag they have a much higher tech engine because they have more HP per cubic inch...
Forced induction, or superchargers, Turnos are nothing new, been around since the early 1900's, some of the engines in the 1940's aircraft where fiorced induction, made 2000 and up to 3000 hp in a 7000 lb aircraft (like the Bearcat & F4U-4 Corsair)


20 lbs of boost might give a Supra or 3000GT-VR4 500-600 hp... but my 440 would achive 1500-2000 Rear weel streetable hp with the boost the jap cars run...
Turbo kits of big blocks are custom and cost around $10,000 for a setup, that counts a good intercooler, not counting changing pistons to lower compression and other goodes..

I not deaf to the new cars, and the old saying that
"There is no substitute for cubic inches" is not true in the least...
but with the best mods, V8's Rule

Those jap car with overdriven Turbos, maybe a little spray,,,,, "THERE IS NOTHING MORE YOU CAN DO TO MAKE MORE WORTHWHILE POWER" becaue your almost built to the MAX....

a Simple mild built 454 Chevy can go a long wat... 500-600 is easy...you can get 800-1000 hp out of them with NO BOOST.... NO SPRAY
Just imagine a custom 20 lbs boost Twin Turbo kit for a 454.....
Can you say "no jap engine on the "plannet Earth" could make as much power"

Another Big block car, say a 440 mopar that is 500 cubes, running new alu heads and mods, making 650hp, properly set with a 400 hp NOS... could make over 900 ponies... add 20 lbs of boost and 2000 rear weel hp EASY.
alot of stress yes, but 8 beefy connecting rods to absorb the power, not just 4 or 6 dinky rods to absorb 500-600 hp

________________________________


On the other side of the token, I go to car shows... old time race people I knew, still think the Detriot V8's in the muscle cars rule, one of my friend thinks those old stock muscle cars are enoguh to take on any new cars and esp jap turbo cars...

I say "you might be suprised!", even some of those old 90-93 Eagle Talons, Plymouth Lasers, Mitsubishi Eclips turbos can be made to run high 12's with around $1000 invested.... no bad.

Most of those old standard stock muscle cars people fix up and leave pure stock would be no match for a new stock EVO...


To be honnest, more jap car people seem to talk trash about the American V8's than vice Versa,
Almost like they are declearing a kind of war on American Muscle cars in thier own mind..

they talk trash about how that 5.0 had to "spray" the motor to outrun his Mazda...

but the more you add mods, to both, the more the bigger engine has an advantage.

I say let him take off him bottle, and you remove your turbo, run pure engine...

A time will come when more and more turbo kits will be available for older and modern V8's at lesser prices, what are the small engine jap car people going to do them... to catch up.?

Wait, I know, sell 357 magnum revolver upgrade kids for the jap turbo cars to shoot out the tires of the turbo American v8's car.... an Answer to everything.

scott

Man, I'm all for V8s and american muscle cars... but a post like yours is gonna stir up alot of commotion here on the boards.

First the flames will come... then the name calling... then the mods will step in... and they'll start warning people.... then it'll flame back up, and somebody is going to get banned.

:(

Originally posted by Donham


20 lbs of boost might give a Supra or 3000GT-VR4 500-600 hp... but my 440 would achive 1500-2000 Rear weel streetable hp with the boost the jap cars run...


This quote has been used so many times in various forms :rolleyes: ... Havent heard of many 1500-2000 rwhp street cars though, any examples?

this is no where near 2000hp... but its pretty damn sweet none-the-less. :D

http://www.hotrod.com/hotrod/roadtests/p166873_image_large.jpg
Green Slime (http://www.hotrod.com/roadtests/89158/)

First off, I can see your points.

Second, you'll have to understand that it is not all about horsepower.

You're right about the fact that I can build up a V8 to tremendous power using the same techniques used in beefing up a smaller engine.

What you fail to point out however, is that in a street-car, or even in a race car, you have to have an effective way of putting all that power to the ground.

I would rather drive a 1,000HP Supra than a 1,000HP Camaro anyday. The added torque the Camaro has will make for an entertaining rainy-day drive. The Supra, on the other hand, though probably having prodigious TQ itself, will more than likely be able to put down its power better. I understand that aftermarket suspension mods do exist. But mod for mod, the Supra will have better handling.

It's not about the weight either, since the Supra weighs in at about 3400LBS.

Did you know that an aftermarket spring for a 2000 Mustang can fit a 1974 Mustang also?

The Supra's smaller-displacement motor allows you the convenience of having a peaky powerband. Though some would consider this a disadvantage, in high-HP motors, this is actually an advantage. It allows you to have that "low-HP" powerband you can use in driving around town, or taking a corner safely in a road race. Think of all the major racing series, especially F1. Even in NASCAR, whenever they have to race in a road course setting, they increase the engine restrictions. This is done for safety reasons...they're less concerned about top-speed than not overpowering corners and losing a race or worse, causing a wreck.

I think it was Motor Trend that called an 800+RWHP Viper's gas pedal the "on/off button".

Street-legal and daily-driven are two different things. I am sure that there are a lot of street-legal thousand-plus HP V8 monsters out there. As plentiful as these are, you'll hear more about daily-driven thousand-plus HP Supras or Skylines (especially in Japan, where those cars are more abundant and can pass emissions).

P.S. I'd rather drive a 1000HP Skyline (AWD) anyday than a similar HP Supra. It's about putting the power to good use.

Dragstrips are a different story. But whose town in here has nothing but straight-aways?

When Zora-Akrus Duntov created the mythical ArDun OHV conversion heads for the Ford flathead V-8, it was guaranteed that American V-8's would be the torque leaders around the world. Why? Because this set of parts was the true forerunner to the Chrysler Hemi family from the Red Ram on up. Top fuelers are pushrod behemoths. That ends the 1/4mile dragrace argument.

HOWEVER....

I am not Herschel McGriff. http://www.motorracingretro.com/70sport/sport76/retro76lemans/76lm04.jpg I have no desire to slide a Dodge Charger around a road course. When it comes to handling balance, smaller cars with lighter peakier engines are preferable. As such, I tend more towards imports (though they be of the four-cylinder English variety). But you know what? It's all preference. Small engine, big engine, turbo, supercharger, big cubes, nitrous, who cares how you make the power? Make it and drive it! There are too many jackasses on both sides of the fence. If it's a nice car, and a fast car, then it's a nice fast car. Whether it came from Sweden, Australia, New Zealand, Holland, Italy, Yugoslavia, Britain, Ireland, Canada, Germany, Spain, Czechoslovakia, Japan, USA, Malayasia or Korea doesn't matter.

Appreciate performance however you find it, otherwise you'll just miss out on something really cool.

Thanks Octagon! Nicely put!

I don't see why there is always this argument on power this and power that?!!?!! Why do we always want more power?...To go faster right? Well, If you have a 600hp Charger and a 600 hp Eclipse who is gonna win? ding! your right the eclipse! It is the speed, and exceleration that matters, not who has the higher number! Thank You, and good-day!

Actually this is a very interesting topic of disscussion - yesterday I payed a visit to the nearest speedway to see locals drag their cars, everything showed up (one person in a minivan, which surprisingly did not set the slow time of the day)
I was thinking though, that here are these big old American cars, with rediculously noisy engines, running times that really weren't too incredible, and here are newer smaller imported cars running the same times.
Then I thought, most hobbyists can afford to own and operate one of these newer cars, not only as a racer for weekends but as a daily driver, while the older American made vehicle would cost mountains of money and be far less reliable to do this double duty... an argument that's usually ignored when this type of comparison is made, truly I have no preference to country of origin so long as it's fun to run.

lalalala

I drive a rice !!!!!!!!
I am in the 11's !!!!!!
my car is streetable!!!!!!
I only run at 19lb of boost!!!!!

why rice has invaded? MONEY!!!!
my car cost me 23,00o and 10,000 in mod, I am in 11's
now show me a 33,000 non-rice that runs 11's. wait, maybe there is, so to be on the safe side, show me a 33,000 non-rice that is in 11's also have AWD.....

bikes? sorry, Japanese bikes rule the street............ ( except the Ducs.)

AWD 401 AMX/Eagles from the late 70's on spray. I saw one run in Wisconsin (the home of American Motors). Those things can run 10's easy. There's your answer.

But when a $7000 Duster can run 11's on spray, who needs AWD?

Nothing can beat a V8 in straight line acceleration when it comes to cost. And nothing can beat them in end for straight line acceleration at this time. I can't think of anything else running under 6sec 1/4 miles.

It's just the way it is. Domestic engines are far more common, far cheaper, and have more displacement.

I like all kinds of cars, you can like the cars you like, but just because you like them doesn't mean the other cars shouldn't get credit where it's due.

Btw, I own imports and domestics, I like each car by itself for different characteristics, I don't care where it's made.

buy a late 80's stang or maro, an u'll build it into 11's for WAY less then 33k.

but as for the topic, one car isn't better then the other. it ALL comes down to personal preference. i have a lot of respect for the big V8's that run 10/11 second passes an shake the ground w/ their huge cams, but at the same time, i don't like their styling an would rather have my teg. yes, it may be slow, but its my car, that i pay foran that i put my money into.

this will be an endless arguement, an red is correct, it will turn into a flame war. check out a similar post "IMPORTS VS DOMESTICS" ur going to see the EXACT same arguements back an forth. pointless really considering neither is better overall.

Originally posted by carrrnuttt

Did you know that an aftermarket spring for a 2000 Mustang can fit a 1974 Mustang also?


Thats not true. The 94 and newer would take one size while the 79-93 would take another. The suspension and frame has changes and evolved over the years, though ignorant rice would say its the exact same replica of the pinto.

Pinto my ass! - you're thinking of the Falcon. Of course the 1st generation mustangs would blow up just as big as the pintos when rear-ended... but that's a different story.

well even though i love that v8 rumble. but it just doens't rev smooth like the way a smaller I4 or V6 does. i love a machine that loves to rev, and its all a matter of preference. i know that a v8 will kill most imports for alot cheaper, and that has the been same argument time and time, but us imports care more about other stuff then goin just straight. our cars are more balanced right off the bat then most domestics, and its more friendlier to the user as well. plus there are lot of v8 guys sayin if you throw a turbo on a v8 a v8 will kill a turbo import. well then why don't you guys throw turbos on your cars more often? stop sayin what if, and just go out and do it. don't say that we're cheating because we have to use turbo. you guys have the same choice, no one is stoping you guys.

Originally posted by Octagon
AWD 401 AMX/Eagles from the late 70's on spray. I saw one run in Wisconsin (the home of American Motors). Those things can run 10's easy. There's your answer.

But when a $7000 Duster can run 11's on spray, who needs AWD?

blah, I am still a rice boy,,,,, go rice,,,,,,. :p

Originally posted by EJ20
lalalala

I drive a rice !!!!!!!!
I am in the 11's !!!!!!
my car is streetable!!!!!!
I only run at 19lb of boost!!!!!

why rice has invaded? MONEY!!!!
my car cost me 23,00o and 10,000 in mod, I am in 11's
now show me a 33,000 non-rice that runs 11's. wait, maybe there is, so to be on the safe side, show me a 33,000 non-rice that is in 11's also have AWD.....

bikes? sorry, Japanese bikes rule the street............ ( except the Ducs.)


You have got to be kidding, there are many American muscle cars that run 1 with only $3000-400 mods or less...
An example, you can build a 500 hp 440 mopar for around $1000,if you pocket port your own heads... EASY job..
say you have a 3500 lb low option (low weight) 68 Road Runner, 500 hp with the right gear and trction (tires) run 11's,...

So maybe The Road runner is too expensive now, you canso the exact same thing with a cheap Satlite, Belvedare, Cornet (same car much cheaper to buy)

so maybe you might have to spend maybe up to $4000-5000 if you have to buy the car and have to go to a junkyard and buy a 67-71 440 from a old New yorker...

Spend another $600 on a good Nitrus setup and fuel lines/pump...
Run 10's for $5000-6000...

So you spent $30,000 to get a lawnmower engine to run 11's..

let me tell you something there are PURE 1 billion % stock American 1960's 70's muscle cars that run 12's PURE stock...
with just new sticky tires and a cam change ipeople have run 11's.. I'm nottalking hemi's, low cost 440'..
Buicks, Chevies etc can do the same...
I'm not being to mopar...

heck, a Cheap 1970-74 Chevy Nova that has a small block V8 engine weighs like 3000 lbs... a 450 hp 350-383 costs $4000 to build (and thats with all internals)...
believe me it's gonna run (if setup right) 11's EASY...

I'm not hear to pick on your car, but if you think it takes over $20,000 to make a American muscle car to run 11's, I just say please go here
http://www.moparstyle.net/

go to the forums, in the racing section and tell them what you told me...

have a good one

scott

Originally posted by DemonZX
Thanks Octagon! Nicely put!

I don't see why there is always this argument on power this and power that?!!?!! Why do we always want more power?...To go faster right? Well, If you have a 600hp Charger and a 600 hp Eclipse who is gonna win? ding! your right the eclipse! It is the speed, and exceleration that matters, not who has the higher number! Thank You, and good-day!


not so fast (hehe), I'll admit a charger is a heavy musclecar.... but comparing a 4000 lbs charger with 600 ho to a 3200 lb Misubish with 600 is not the same and the results might suprise you.., the dinky 4-6 poper with 600 hp has 600 hp at 9000 rpms and EL-ZILCHO low end torque, the charger might have a 500 cid 600 hp engine with a FLAT turque curve...... 600 hp at 5500 rpm,s and but 700 ft lbs or torque at 3500 where as the 600 hp mitsubish might have 120 ft lbs at 3500 rpms..

its not me who is undereastamating the small engine turbo thing, its those of you who have them who do not understand just because an engine is naturally aspired does not mean it is slow..

scott

Originally posted by carrrnuttt
First off, I can see your points.


What you fail to point out however, is that in a street-car, or even in a race car, you have to have an effective way of putting all that power to the ground.

I would rather drive a 1,000HP Supra than a 1,000HP Camaro anyday. The added torque the Camaro has will make for an entertaining rainy-day drive. The Supra, on the other hand, though probably having prodigious TQ itself, will more than likely be able to put down its power better. I understand that aftermarket suspension mods do exist. But mod for mod, the Supra will have better handling.

It's not about the weight either, since the Supra weighs in at about 3400LBS.

Did you know that an aftermarket spring for a 2000 Mustang can fit a 1974 Mustang also?

The Supra's smaller-displacement motor allows you the convenience of having a peaky powerband. Though some would consider this a disadvantage, in high-HP motors, this is actually an advantage. It allows you to have that "low-HP" powerband you can use in driving around town, or taking a corner safely in a road race. Think of all the major racing series, especially F1. Even in NASCAR, whenever they have to race in a road course setting, they increase the engine restrictions. This is done for safety reasons...they're less concerned about top-speed than not overpowering corners and losing a race or worse, causing a wreck.

I think it was Motor Trend that called an 800+RWHP Viper's gas pedal the "on/off button".

Street-legal and daily-driven are two different things. I am sure that there are a lot of street-legal thousand-plus HP V8 monsters out there. As plentiful as these are, you'll hear more about daily-driven thousand-plus HP Supras or Skylines (especially in Japan, where those cars are more abundant and can pass emissions).

P.S. I'd rather drive a 1000HP Skyline (AWD) anyday than a similar HP Supra. It's about putting the power to good use.

Dragstrips are a different story. But whose town in here has nothing but straight-aways?




What makes you think those American car can't put dowe the power, with a good set of chater slicks (street legal slicks with groves) I've seen car like this pull the front weels on a good road...

What good is AWD going to do when a car pulls hard enoguh (like a good high torque V8 can) the rear weels get most of the weight transfer.... the front weels are either off the ground of have very very little traction (almost off ground)...
What good is AWD going to do?


Also I'm not going to be racing in the Rain... AWD owners I hope you do not either for both our sakes..

I understand those Japanese cars just plan handl;e better than those old muscle cars... I admit in a road race, we'd be killed, but nobody road races on the street anymore, maybe 1 in 100,000 people roadrace on the street to what people dragrace..

I'm not saying drag racing is safe esp on the street, but road racing around corners on the street is for TV... I can be drag racing and fly over a spilled antifreeze spot fly over a oil spot on the road at 125 mph at the end of a 1/4 mile but if your raod racing someone, and your going around a corner and hit a oil spot, a antifreeze spot, your off in the trees, if you even hit a small patch of sand.. your done at just say 50 mph...
nobody cares about handling, it's all about STRAIT line...

I can corner in my old heavyweight car just as good as you cause I'm only goingto be going 15-20 mph around a charp corner



I will admit too much low end will break your tires away, but whne you shift up, more torque is needed for those higher gears..

I will admit those AWD cars can move sometimes if built right, and in the winter I have seen those little Talon AWd's blow through like 2 ft of snow like 4Wd's... and keep going...

scott

Originally posted by Donham

nobody cares about handling, it's all about STRAIT line...

scott

Wrong. You may be able to kill me all day with your big block (not against V8's.. would kill for a 528 'cuda...) But i looooove driving in the twisties, and losing firebirds and camaro's alllllllll day long. They just can take the turns like i can. And 1.3 liters is all i need.

Torque isnt everything. Especially for a light car that rev's high, torques are not as important. Perhaps with the older big blocsk that weight a lot you need all that torque that you always brag about, but me making 145 hp and 105 torques is plenty to get away from big domestics when i hit the twisties.

Plus, i think an N/A rotary running headers and straight thru's sounds cooler than a V8 doing the same. And just aobut as loud too, if that that floats yer boat. Certainly doesnt float the smokies boat though.

Originally posted by TatII
well even though i love that v8 rumble. but it just doens't rev smooth like the way a smaller I4 or V6 does. i love a machine that loves to rev, and its all a matter of preference. i know that a v8 will kill most imports for alot cheaper, and that has the been same argument time and time, but us imports care more about other stuff then goin just straight. our cars are more balanced right off the bat then most domestics, and its more friendlier to the user as well. plus there are lot of v8 guys sayin if you throw a turbo on a v8 a v8 will kill a turbo import. well then why don't you guys throw turbos on your cars more often? stop sayin what if, and just go out and do it. don't say that we're cheating because we have to use turbo. you guys have the same choice, no one is stoping you guys.


Nobody is whinning, about turbo's, most 9-8-7 second street v8's do not run turbos and no jap street can on the plannet can touch em...

I think it's great if you like a certain auto.. I will admit for all out performance in conering, handling, braking, accleration, gas mpg, those imports rule for the combo above....

no one is putting you cars down... well okey i've been hard at times, but I'll admit yes in these times it's nice to have 30 mpg when gas is $1.30 and more, a big 440 like I have gets 10 mph if I'm lucky... can not have too much fun.driving around...

I'm not here to get on any import owners arse... I was mearly replying to over all posts alot of the jap car owners claim that those V8's are inferior in a street drag to jap import cars...
The first post is not on the offense, just to point out how many young ones here have been missguided to think old is always slower or at least on avg..

I've seen people on here mouth off about thier 11 sec supra etc and how they never met a V8 they could not "kill"...

all I can say is they must not be looking for anything other than pure stock 5.0's, cause, if they are in the big legues like they claim, there is always people to help him find competition whorewhile if he really wants it...


It does seem to be another kind of war between japan and USA for who's got the cars that rule the streets performance wise..
I think it's kind of cool.... I have friends who like jap cars..... no hate here... we have our preferances... but we still talk... it's just like the old days in the Chevy vs ford vs mopar debates, we used to argue all the time, but we all had the same love of speed...
back them we knew people who could run 10's, but most of us who hung out was lucky to run 13's (1980's) we street raced alot and had fun..

scott

hehehe,,,,,
American muscles race on oval track and straight line.......
hm, nothing to brag about.

oh, did someone asked about AWD? here is why I mentioned AWD.

http://home.tampabay.rr.com/dragon2003/sti%20race1.wmv
right click and save as.

Originally posted by EJ20
hehehe,,,,,
American muscles race on oval track and straight line.......
hm, nothing to brag about.



:rolleyes:

http://www.corvetteracing.com/race_news/2003releases/24Lemans03/img/blueC5R_LeMans1.jpg

Umm I do believe this baby can turn corners with the best of them... and it's proven that by winning the GTS class at LeMans...

well if your looking for the typical import driver who doesn't know squat about cars in this forum you will be very dissapointed. heheh all of us atleast knows common sense in cars. well after i've gotten my turbo, i'm tryin to look for fights with other turbo cars, or stock V8's heheh i know a modded V8 will blow my doors off, but i just want to show them that my little 4 cylinder can still stay in there rearview and that will make me happy enough. i'm like stuck right in the middle of hte speed ladder. n/a I4's are too slow for me now, modded V8's and twin turbo 6 cylinders are too fast for me too, so i have to pick fights with 5.0's and GT's heheh maybe a new 350Z will give me a good run too:D

Originally posted by EJ20
hehehe,,,,,
American muscles race on oval track and straight line.......
hm, nothing to brag about.


Why isn' a Nascar something to brag about? They're technological wonders like all other racecars? If the genius and work and skill of the drivers that goes into those cars and races is not impressive to you, you're either blind or lying. It's people like you who put so much tension into the racing scene with your negative, one-sided, unknowledgeable, and baseless attitudes about things that quite frankley, you know nothing about it seems. It's ALSO people like you who get semi-reasonable threads such as this one closed by moderators such as myself:) So let's try to be a little more reasonable people, so this friendly debate can continue.

Originally posted by TatII
well if your looking for the typical import driver who doesn't know squat about cars in this forum you will be very dissapointed. heheh all of us atleast knows common sense in cars. well after i've gotten my turbo, i'm tryin to look for fights with other turbo cars, or stock V8's heheh i know a modded V8 will blow my doors off, but i just want to show them that my little 4 cylinder can still stay in there rearview and that will make me happy enough. i'm like stuck right in the middle of hte speed ladder. n/a I4's are too slow for me now, modded V8's and twin turbo 6 cylinders are too fast for me too, so i have to pick fights with 5.0's and GT's heheh maybe a new 350Z will give me a good run too:D

if ur ever on the west coast, lemme kno. i wanna try a turbo'd 240. i mean...u'll win, yes, but still :D .

an donham, i respect wut u are saying, but if u read, not many of us import drivers on here are making fun of or saying that our imports are better then domestics. yes, u'll get the occasional guy like ej, but for the most part, all of us are w/ u in saying that domestics own the straight line.

btw tho...u can build a 10 second import for less then 5k...FYI :D

Originally posted by Self


Why isn' a Nascar something to brag about? They're technological wonders like all other racecars? If the genius and work and skill of the drivers that goes into those cars and races is not impressive to you, you're either blind or lying. It's people like you who put so much tension into the racing scene with your negative, one-sided, unknowledgeable, and baseless attitudes about things that quite frankley, you know nothing about it seems. It's ALSO people like you who get semi-reasonable threads such as this one closed by moderators such as myself:) So let's try to be a little more reasonable people, so this friendly debate can continue.
well well well, just becuz I have my own opinion so I can't speak it? ok Mr. Moderator. The thread starter started out putting down JDM automobile, don't you think that is also one-sided opinion as well, what makes me more wrong than people who are one-sided saying that american muscle are better than JDM imports. Why don't you a "reasonable" moderator here?" I am not the only one who is one-sided here.

Originally posted by KrNxRaCer00


if ur ever on the west coast, lemme kno. i wanna try a turbo'd 240. i mean...u'll win, yes, but still :D .


If you're ever in SoCal... lemme know... i'd love to run a GSR..... although I dont think it'd be fair... but it'd be worth posting!! :D

and Tat... if you ever come to SoCal.. I'd love to run a Turbo'd 4 as well. :D

Originally posted by Donham




nobody cares about handling, it's all about STRAIT line...

I can corner in my old heavyweight car just as good as you cause I'm only goingto be going 15-20 mph around a charp corner


I'd have to agree with this statement When I read racing stories none of them are about how the other guy outhandled the other guy in the race and then won it's either a race from a roll for a little less than an 1/8th of a mile or it's about some race from a stop light. I also would rather have RWD over AWD because in an AWD setup there are a lot of parts and over the long haul those parts start to loosen and they are a pain to repair, I had an old chev truck with full time 4wd and after a few years it started to run funny and at highway speeds it would vibrate badly, and it even started to cost me gas mleage, I would rather have something simpler.

Originally posted by 76_cobra


I'd have to agree with this statement When I read racing stories none of them are about how the other guy outhandled the other guy in the race and then won it's either a race from a roll for a little less than an 1/8th of a mile or it's about some race from a stop light. I also would rather have RWD over AWD because in an AWD setup there are a lot of parts and over the long haul those parts start to loosen and they are a pain to repair, I had an old chev truck with full time 4wd and after a few years it started to run funny and at highway speeds it would vibrate badly, and it even started to cost me gas mleage, I would rather have something simpler.


You had an old 70s Blazer?

'75 chev pick up with a 400 in it

hmmm interesting... thought only the Blazers came with the AWD... learn something new each day. :D

76_cobra i've posted up a race about how i beat a mustang gt on the highway because i out handled it. heheh i knew back then that i would have stood no chance in the straight. so i had to take him in the sweeps, and yeah krnxracer i think your car is damn fast for a gs-r. 14.8 is no slouch either, but i doubt that i will ever drive that far to cali. so sorry krnxracer and redneck. hehe we can always imagine though. :cool:

Originally posted by RedNeck383
If you're ever in SoCal... lemme know... i'd love to run a GSR..... although I dont think it'd be fair... but it'd be worth posting!! :D

u talkin bout the nova? hahahha, cuz that'd jus be a WHOOPIN, but i'd take it. i MIGHT go down there if the SAR's doesn't die down in asia, an i don't end up goin to Vietnam. my buddy's an i are gonna take a road trip somewhere, an i wanna get away from wa.

Originally posted by TatIIyeah krnxracer i think your car is damn fast for a gs-r. 14.8 is no slouch either, but i doubt that i will ever drive that far to cali. so sorry krnxracer and redneck. hehe we can always imagine though.

party pooper :( .

j/k, u have all ur stuff almost done? u gotta let us know wut u run w/ that...im startin to become more interested in the nissans than i was before. thx for the props BTW Tat.

back ON TOPIC...yes, awd SUCKS from a roll because of the power loss, but from a stop, i think its still great for drag racing. yes when u get TONS of power, RWD is prolly better, but its still awesome to have. the AWD DSM's are BEASTS when done correctly...same with the WRX an the new EVO's. but to say that the parts will break...big deal? how many guys u know w/ RWD cars taht are pushing huge numbers that don't snap something or blow something out? racing is hard on cars...simple as that.

a 600hp twin turbo 20B (3 Rotor) engined Trueno GT Apex is the best option

Everything else is too heavy

Originally posted by Donham




I understand those Japanese cars just plan handl;e better than those old muscle cars... I admit in a road race, we'd be killed, but nobody road races on the street anymore, maybe 1 in 100,000 people roadrace on the street to what people dragrace..

I'm not saying drag racing is safe esp on the street, but road racing around corners on the street is for TV... I can be drag racing and fly over a spilled antifreeze spot fly over a oil spot on the road at 125 mph at the end of a 1/4 mile but if your raod racing someone, and your going around a corner and hit a oil spot, a antifreeze spot, your off in the trees, if you even hit a small patch of sand.. your done at just say 50 mph...
nobody cares about handling, it's all about STRAIT line...

I can corner in my old heavyweight car just as good as you cause I'm only goingto be going 15-20 mph around a charp corner



I will admit too much low end will break your tires away, but whne you shift up, more torque is needed for those higher gears..

I will admit those AWD cars can move sometimes if built right, and in the winter I have seen those little Talon AWd's blow through like 2 ft of snow like 4Wd's... and keep going...

scott



LMFAO take a 240sx and loose traction, you will be surprised how well it copes. If you know what to do its an impressive machine

Originally posted by Donham


What makes you think those American car can't put dowe the power, with a good set of chater slicks (street legal slicks with groves) I've seen car like this pull the front weels on a good road...

I assumed that we were talking about everyday, roadgoing cars.

If you are referring to just simply racing in straight-line, quarter-mile style, then yes, the high-displacement motors should be the leaders in that. Hell, they've got over 60-70 years of development, versus low-displacement imports that have about a dozen.

Quarter-mile racing, though quite prevalent nowadays, is but one-tenth of what driving is all about. you noticed I said "straight-line, quarter-mile style". Do you think your vaunted musclecars will stand a chance against Japanese "wangan" (highway) racers? Do you think they'll stand a chance against their top-speed racing? Against standing-mile racing? The newer musclecars maybe, but not your favored muscle of yesteryears.

I'm not even mentioning road-racing, since you seem pretty realistic about that.

On freeway race would you rather race with:

A) an 800+HP Toyota Supra or
b) a 1,000+HP 69 Camaro?

Think of how your cheater slicks would affect this situation...


Originally posted by Donham

What good is AWD going to do when a car pulls hard enoguh (like a good high torque V8 can) the rear weels get most of the weight transfer.... the front weels are either off the ground of have very very little traction (almost off ground)...
What good is AWD going to do?

Again, talking about everyday cars. AWD will always be better in everday driving conditions than any 2WD system.

RWD has its advantages.

FWD has it's advantages.

AWD has both systems' advantages.

Have you ever seen a 1stGen Eclipse/Talon cut a 1.8 or less 60-ft on bona-fide Pep-Boys specials? Try that with a high-HP same year (90'-94')Camaro.


Originally posted by Donham

Also I'm not going to be racing in the Rain... AWD owners I hope you do not either for both our sakes..

AND Again, talking about everyday driving.

Not too many people in this board can afford to support a weekend-only car. I repeat: "street-legal does not equal daily-driven". I was talking about high-HP and liveability

Now, let's say you have to go to the bathroom VERY badly...you need teepee. You're out. It's raining. You only have a choice between:

A) a 750+HP 440 Hemi-Charger or
B) a 1,200+HP Toyota Supra

Let logic, not bias, be your guide in this...
(not even mentioning the AWD Skyline, since it won't be fair in a rainy-day comparo)



Originally posted by Donham

I understand those Japanese cars just plan handl;e better than those old muscle cars... I admit in a road race, we'd be killed, but nobody road races on the street anymore, maybe 1 in 100,000 people roadrace on the street to what people dragrace..

Refer to my above posts for this one.

Originally posted by Donham

I'm not saying drag racing is safe esp on the street, but road racing around corners on the street is for TV... I can be drag racing and fly over a spilled antifreeze spot fly over a oil spot on the road at 125 mph at the end of a 1/4 mile but if your raod racing someone, and your going around a corner and hit a oil spot, a antifreeze spot, your off in the trees, if you even hit a small patch of sand.. your done at just say 50 mph...
nobody cares about handling, it's all about STRAIT line...

Refer to your post below for this one.

Originally posted by Donham

I can corner in my old heavyweight car just as good as you cause I'm only goingto be going 15-20 mph around a charp corner

I would slit my throat if that is what I'd have to do everyday just to be able to drive my car. My old boss' van can corner better than that...oh BTW, the van was a Honda Odyssey.


Originally posted by Donham

I will admit too much low end will break your tires away, but whne you shift up, more torque is needed for those higher gears..

Actually, no. Better gearing is more necessary for the higher gears. Don't forget, gearing multiplies torque.

Originally posted by Donham

I will admit those AWD cars can move sometimes if built right, and in the winter I have seen those little Talon AWd's blow through like 2 ft of snow like 4Wd's... and keep going...

scott

If AWD grips that much on snow...how do you think it'll do on asphalt?

i'm gonna forgive the ability not to write straight properlly but i actually disagree with straight line

Its boring i want to race around a track and drift n stuff
(notice how the drift scene is getting bigger) it's not all about going fast in a straight line ya know.:o

actully carnutt there is one muscle car thast would do awsome even in wangan races, the superbird could reach over 200mph

Yes and actually, if I remember right, the quickest car on the Wangan right now is a Corvette. Granted it is a NEW Corvette, but still...Musclecars are musclecars:)

I don't think when your in a street racing forum, that specs and back up statements shouldn't be made on production stock numbers....

who races a car that doesn't have any mods on it, from intake filter to a new muffler......?

Originally posted by Neutrino
actully carnutt there is one muscle car thast would do awsome even in wangan races, the superbird could reach over 200mph

True, but I wouldn't trust something that heavy zipping through highway lanes at those speeds.

It's easy to make a car go forward faster and faster, but being able to make it handle the tolerances at those speeds is another.

Originally posted by Self
Yes and actually, if I remember right, the quickest car on the Wangan right now is a Corvette. Granted it is a NEW Corvette, but still...Musclecars are musclecars:)

Not sure about that, but in the scheme of all things V8 and American, the Corvette motor is considered small-displacement (when you can get 10Liter V8s and stuff) and higher revving than others...relating to what I said about a tall powerband helping you control your car.

Originally posted by carrrnuttt


True, but I wouldn't trust something that heavy zipping through highway lanes at those speeds.

It's easy to make a car go forward faster and faster, but being able to make it handle the tolerances at those speeds is another.

i just wanted to show how revolutionary that old technology was...



and i cannot belive you guys compare cars from 30 years ago with brand new cars and say that they handle worse.....well no duh....its 30 years of technological advancement...a proper comprison would be with the today's modern musche cars like the viper or the Z06

i just wanted to give the super bird as an example of how good that old engineering was....it was a very aerodinamic car....and they did all that without the help of today's cad machines computerised wind tunels etc....

Pre-supposing you already own the car you're going to work on and don't have to pay for it, $1000 seems reasonable, but otherwise most American cars are way overpriced (unless you fancy getting a Pacer...)
My Yugo is going to not even reach $1000 for right now (including the cost of the car itself!) and that also includes the engine swap! (but find a good chevette and you just might be able to keep it below $1000)
Running in the twelves? At the event I was at just two days only a couple cars both foreign or domestic got into the twelves, and the majority of the cars there were American made (and the ones that did get into the 12 marks looked to be extensively modified) maybe it was bad driving, maybe it's just the thin air we have up here, but I'm not buying the whole 11's for under $4000 story.

Originally posted by Donham



You have got to be kidding, there are many American muscle cars that run 1 with only $3000-400 mods or less...
An example, you can build a 500 hp 440 mopar for around $1000,if you pocket port your own heads... EASY job..
say you have a 3500 lb low option (low weight) 68 Road Runner, 500 hp with the right gear and trction (tires) run 11's,...

So maybe The Road runner is too expensive now, you canso the exact same thing with a cheap Satlite, Belvedare, Cornet (same car much cheaper to buy)

so maybe you might have to spend maybe up to $4000-5000 if you have to buy the car and have to go to a junkyard and buy a 67-71 440 from a old New yorker...

Spend another $600 on a good Nitrus setup and fuel lines/pump...
Run 10's for $5000-6000...

So you spent $30,000 to get a lawnmower engine to run 11's..

let me tell you something there are PURE 1 billion % stock American 1960's 70's muscle cars that run 12's PURE stock...
with just new sticky tires and a cam change ipeople have run 11's.. I'm nottalking hemi's, low cost 440'..
Buicks, Chevies etc can do the same...
I'm not being to mopar...

heck, a Cheap 1970-74 Chevy Nova that has a small block V8 engine weighs like 3000 lbs... a 450 hp 350-383 costs $4000 to build (and thats with all internals)...
believe me it's gonna run (if setup right) 11's EASY...

I'm not hear to pick on your car, but if you think it takes over $20,000 to make a American muscle car to run 11's, I just say please go here
http://www.moparstyle.net/

go to the forums, in the racing section and tell them what you told me...

have a good one

scott

yeah as sad as it is, the fastest car on the inner loop on the japanese highway is some automatic vette. i almost passed out when i saw it considering that they have many 200+ mph tuner cars in japan. including a diablo

Originally posted by Donham



not so fast (hehe), I'll admit a charger is a heavy musclecar.... but comparing a 4000 lbs charger with 600 ho to a 3200 lb Misubish with 600 is not the same and the results might suprise you.., the dinky 4-6 poper with 600 hp has 600 hp at 9000 rpms and EL-ZILCHO low end torque, the charger might have a 500 cid 600 hp engine with a FLAT turque curve...... 600 hp at 5500 rpm,s and but 700 ft lbs or torque at 3500 where as the 600 hp mitsubish might have 120 ft lbs at 3500 rpms..

its not me who is undereastamating the small engine turbo thing, its those of you who have them who do not understand just because an engine is naturally aspired does not mean it is slow..

scott




I think you are underestimating turbos. A turbo increases torque almost as much as horsepower, that 600 hp Mitsubishi would have 500+ lb of torque, that + 800 less lbs + awd= raped Charger

ya I was checking out Supercoupes SC 3.8L videos.... a whole buch came up of it racing a C5, a SS camaro, and a Rx7. As I watched em I noticed some japanese words were being said.... these were outside shots couldn't see people... I guess they have some tuned USDM cars there as well.... however that RX7 did beat it a little bit, it smoked the Chevy's.
However as far as sports cars are concerned for the population, I think Skylines/S-chassis/Evo are more prevailent over there then USDM such as Mustang/Camaro/Corvette by far.

Wow look at this a thread with japanvs Amercian and no dumb flaming. *knock on wood* now i probbly jinxed it sorry. I love them both but i've seen a buddy trying to keep up with an talon in his Cobra in the turns lost control smashed into a tree cut his car clean in half (he was fine) if he had AWD like the TSI did he would still have it and won the racing near me is there are turns so most of the time the imports win sometimes there just stomped.

I'm not even mentioning road-racing, since you seem pretty realistic about that.




On freeway race would you rather race with:

A) an 800+HP Toyota Supra or
b) a 1,000+HP 69 Camaro?

_________________________________
ANSWER: is, that depends on how both are built, if you use new technoligy on a big engine muscle car, like a overdrive automatic, or a T56 6 speed, then who can say.
_________________________________






Have you ever seen a 1stGen Eclipse/Talon cut a 1.8 or less 60-ft on bona-fide Pep-Boys specials? Try that with a high-HP same year (90'-94')Camaro.

________________________________
ANSWER:
Actually, yes I've seen some quick Eagle Talons, mostly the early ones with the larger turbos that are turned down from the factory.... Been the the Indy drags seen one street driven run like 12's, barely, like 12.90's, pretty good...
___________________________




AND Again, talking about everyday driving.

Not too many people in this board can afford to support a weekend-only car. I repeat: "street-legal does not equal daily-driven". I was talking about high-HP and liveability


_________________________________
ANSWER:
If they can afford to dump $20,000 into a Supra to make it run 11's, just maybe they can afford it as a weekend drive,r esp when with 22 lbs of boost the ctlender pressure is enough to require 112 race fuel.
_________________________________



Now, let's say you have to go to the bathroom VERY badly...you need teepee. You're out. It's raining. You only have a choice between:

A) a 750+HP 440 Hemi-Charger or
B) a 1,200+HP Toyota Supra

Let logic, not bias, be your guide in this...
(not even mentioning the AWD Skyline, since it won't be fair in a rainy-day comparo)


________________________________
ANSWER:
There is no such thing as a 1,200 hp Street Drive daily driver Toyota,
I have seen in magazine a street driven Plymouth Valare with a 1,440 hemi, 3650 lbs ran 8's with small real rubber and serious traction problems, this was back in the late 80's.. technoligy for big engine is much better now as it is for all engines.

Jez dude talk about Bias, you compare a full blown Cam Am Toyota Race car (1,200 hp) to a street car with a tired (750 hp) Hemi in it, and you pick the most heavy musclecar Chrysler corp has ever made...

Believe it or now there are alot of forced induction hemis out there, they seem to like it, many many 1500 hp street driven hemi's on the road..
_________________________________


I would slit my throat if that is what I'd have to do everyday just to be able to drive my car. My old boss' van can corner better than that...oh BTW, the van was a Honda Odyssey.

_______________________________
ANSWER:
Oh come on, now lets not get testy, everyone here is behaving like adults, and friendly for a hot debate, I can tense a little frustration... I do not practice can am style driving on the street, now I'm no mr law or nice guy, but fast cornering in the city is dangerous, compared to battling out the 1/4 mile out in the nowhere county.
Do as you will, but be careful though.
_______________________________

Actually, no. Better gearing is more necessary for the higher gears. Don't forget, gearing multiplies torque.


________________________________
ANSWER
I understand gearing and rear weel torque at the weels... there is a breaking point to how much low gear you need on the street to as how much you start to lose traction..
You could have a 600 hp at 900 rpms supra, with 550 lbs or torque at 5000 rpms
and it still might only have 150 ft lbs at 2000 rpms... while a 68 Satlite with a 500 big block might have the same HP Same torque, but have 500 ft lbs at 2000 rpms...

You can dump the clutch on the supra at 9 grand and the Rpm's are still gonna falll down...until you get moving and while the motor up some to it's power..
By the time the high rpm HP supra gets it's best power, my 7 yr son old will already be in high school.....
Numbers on paper look neat, but you have to have the whole package...

lets talk Street cars that run on pump gas, you can forget the 600 supra, cause 20 lbs of boost will yeild with a 8.0:1 compression motor like 16.0:1 dynamic compression, and pump (93-94) gas runs at between 8.2:1 to 9.0:1 DYNAMIC compression depending on cumbustion chamber effecientcy etc

I mean your talking daiily drivers, so lets talk 93-94 octane pump gas...
Yes, There are 600-700 hp big block that run on pump gas...
Hot Rod a while back had a 600 cid Big block Chevy with 1050 hp runs on 93 Octane. No Nitrus too.. I love those mopars, but those big block Chevy Rats kick some serious butt..

Also those V8's will run more NOS than those dinky 6 popers with turbos...
There is only so much you can do with a small piston and stroke...
________________________________





If AWD grips that much on snow...how do you think it'll do on asphalt?

_________________________________
ANSWER

Well then, 4 Weel drives truck kick butt in the snow also, so I guess they would mop up all of us...
like I said, AWD is good for snow, but for a 11 second streetcar it does no good..
Those front axles are doing noting, because of the car accelerates, the weight of a car moves to the rear (didn't you know this part?), and most the weight on a quick car is on the rear weels, what good is a front axle if it's hanging in the air or BARELY touching the ground.... it's taking up weight and more friction for the motor..
might as well just have a FWD, matter of fact I think most the fasest 1/4 mile mitsubishi Diamond Star cars are FWD... have huge rubber up front..
AWD would be better for a engine with low end torque.... overdriven turbocharged lawnmowers have not mch low end...

___________________

Also one thing, I think most the people (jap car owners too) here are pretty keen on overall mechanics, you guys seems to be grown up, not too much flamming going on....a little heated bias at times, but you have a general understanding, it's just alot of you don't have any knowlege of older cars, esp with todays technoligy on them...

You seem to kind of be a little ticked off at some Domestic car owners cause they give you no respect, or don't even give you a glance...
I can say personally I do know there are some very fast import cars...
I might blow off some steam myself touting about the "boosted lawnmower engines", but I know better than to say my domestic has nothing to worry about from those rice cars...

At the same token I read a bunch of posts of rice car owners popping off about killing all those V8's , then your asking for a response..
This is a open forum, serving not only import readers, you post and you might get a response (hopefully no profanity and flames) from someone.

Take care

scott

A lot of what he said above is true...Except for the part about there being no 1000hp+ Supra's on the street. That's not technically true. Many of those cars are able to turn the boost down and run on the street every day if need be. Now granted, once they do so they're not necessarily 1000hp+ anymore, but still. I feel as if that's one of the pro's of having a turbo vehicle. Power adjustability:D

And I've also seen a 93+ Camaro cut a sub 2.0 60' on cheap street tires. Not trying to diss on AWD cars, because they're GREAT. On the street and in the snow/rain as well. But like he said, once again, when you get to a certain point hp-wise, weight transfer is such that the front wheels are pretty much useless anyways. And then again, the high-speed power robbing of an AWD system is detrimental. But then again that's not really that big of a deal in a daily driven vehicle. Just saying that both cars have their strengths. If anyone is wondering, I personally don't really have a preference one way or another. I just happen to have a Camaro at the moment(although that may be changing in the near future:( ) Looking to pick up something cheap next, so an Eclipse or something is very possible.

wow sub 2.0 on street tires i think that also says alot about the driver and in real life the driver is the most important thing in the car.

Originally posted by Ace$nyper
wow sub 2.0 on street tires i think that also says alot about the driver and in real life the driver is the most important thing in the car.

Oh yea, most certainly. But a sub 2 on streets isn't that difficult to do with stock or near stock hp in a Z28. Anything above say 350hp though, and you start to have real big problems hooking up on streets.

If they can afford to dump $20,000 into a Supra to make it run 11's, just maybe they can afford it as a weekend drive,r esp when with 22 lbs of boost the ctlender pressure is enough to require 112 race fuel.


im sorry but how does it take 20,000 bucks to make a Supra do 11's.


with 20k bucks I could make a 240sx that is already non turbo'd... buy all the parts and tune it and probably do 11's or less........

I only imagine its a hell of a lot easier to do it on a Supra.....

turbochargers aren't THAT expensive...... I will admit some people have some badass cars they had no budget on but you can obtain those speeds on a budget with a turbo car if you plan right.....

the Japanese look down on USDM cars you can just tell that by watching Best Motoring and listening to Keiichi talking about the 350Z is a poser designed for the american market to go up against corvettes altho it might be Gan-san not Keiichi who said that. Keiichi keeps calling him old man its hilarious........... no doubt :o

no doubt the USDM market played a SUBSTANTIAL role in how the 350z was designed. It is still a good car though, I like the interrior and exterior styling, Lemans Sunset kicks ass. Although they say its not twin turbo or anything and complain about the speed, you have to realize it is the Fastest Z that has been made so far.......And I hear it handles better then the Z32 as well....

Its still a decent sports car, I've seen BMI run it against a R34 stock and it was right behind it most of the track, didn't do to bad. modded GTR vs modded Z33 who knows though lol Id bet on the skyline.

Originally posted by Donham



If AWD grips that much on snow...how do you think it'll do on asphalt?

_________________________________
ANSWER

Well then, 4 Weel drives truck kick butt in the snow also, so I guess they would mop up all of us...
like I said, AWD is good for snow, but for a 11 second streetcar it does no good..
Those front axles are doing noting, because of the car accelerates, the weight of a car moves to the rear (didn't you know this part?), and most the weight on a quick car is on the rear weels, what good is a front axle if it's hanging in the air or BARELY touching the ground.... it's taking up weight and more friction for the motor..
might as well just have a FWD, matter of fact I think most the fasest 1/4 mile mitsubishi Diamond Star cars are FWD... have huge rubber up front..
AWD would be better for a engine with low end torque.... overdriven turbocharged lawnmowers have not mch low end...

___________________



Your thinking of AWD wrong, awd does not send 100% of power to the rear wheels like a rwd does, it sends a certian amount to both front and rear axels. Both axels get decent power and all four tires grip, none come off the ground enough to lose traction.

Originally posted by SR20DETpower
no doubt the USDM market played a SUBSTANTIAL role in how the 350z was designed. It is still a good car though, I like the interrior and exterior styling, Lemans Sunset kicks ass. Although they say its not twin turbo or anything and complain about the speed, you have to realize it is the Fastest Z that has been made so far.......And I hear it handles better then the Z32 as well....

Its still a decent sports car, I've seen BMI run it against a R34 stock and it was right behind it most of the track, didn't do to bad. modded GTR vs modded Z33 who knows though lol Id bet on the skyline.

did you watch all of that video
i have the DVD and the R34 is just pacing it cuz its a camera car. The guy decides at the end he'll demostrate how fast a R34 is compared to the Z he hounds the Z then destroys it overtaking in a corner and leaving it for dead on the straight away. GAN-san was pissed off at the GTR cuz it was in his way he was in a S2000 and would've taken the Z in a corner if the GTR wasn't there.

That's also the other point they link this to the GTR and say its not a race car like the GTR so its more american etc etc. The GTR wasted the Z is was immense.

Originally posted by crankwalk 2g


Your thinking of AWD wrong, awd does not send 100% of power to the rear wheels like a rwd does, it sends a certian amount to both front and rear axels. Both axels get decent power and all four tires grip, none come off the ground enough to lose traction.


AWD's are really easy to screw up on launching from a dead stop thats the only problem. The R34 GTR has a good way of overcoming it but it is not true AWD.

yeah I've never seen a AWD GTR pick up its front wheels... take a look at some videos of the fastest ones.... the front end picks up a lil bit but the front tires never spin out of control.... the rears might lay out some smoke, but it still accelerates hard. Nothing beats seeing a high HP skyline take off the line hard lol.