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Old 06-06-2009, 08:30 PM   #1
trick78
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Question Procedure to bring this car to life-intake manifold gasket?

1997 Buick Park avenue 3.8L 3800 series II Dynaride with 103,000 miles

One of my landscape customers was going to junk the car and I happen to intervene in time to acquire it. The story I received was that one day just a few miles from home the light came on and it started hesitating just enough to loose it's oomph and for the driver to notice things weren't quite right. She made it home, parked it and tried to start it multiple times without success before giving up and going out for a new ride. This was the first noticeable problem with the car but the couple is not car savvy in any way.

I had it towed home and am now in the process of repairing her, hopefully with your help, to the sweet ride she wants to be again (I hear her whispering to me).
Not having a clue more than guesses what the problem may be I started tinkering. I loaned out the OBDII scan tool from Advanced auto and got the code p0300 which translates to random/multiple cylinder misfire detected. I checked fuses, charged the battery, tried a bit of starter fluid in the TB, pulled every plug and they all sparked while cranking the engine. It's got fuel pressure at the rails. I checked the oil level and it was def. high so I pulled about 2 quarts out to get her into the hatched area of the dip stick.

The problems (or possibles) I see so far are that the plugs were wet with fuel and had a moderately dirty feel and appearance. I removed the air cleaner and housing and all were really clean. I tried to start it a couple times after pouring a bit of fuel into the plug holes and the car did a few very low muffled less than a cough sounds but I believe it did that before too. I then noticed a tan colored fluid coming from the TB and figured it not to be fuel as it smelled like antifreeze or brake fluid. I got curious and pulled the TB off the UIM and immediately saw things not right. The manifold side of the Tb is caked with soft (hardening as it dries tho) black deposit. The weird thing there was that when I manually opened the butterfly the other side of it was perfectly clean- night and day from one side of the butterfly to the other. I put the TB off to the side and looked into the manifold and saw pools of fluid in there, the roof of it soaked and everything dirty like the TB. Soooo I decided to at least pull the intake off for a cleaning and inspection. So I pulled the fuel rails, injectors, wires and whatever else was in the way of the intake coming out and then pulled it too. When it came off I could see that pool of fluid clearly and really began to think the problem is here or further in. The fluid was brown colored, slightly milky and the consistency of water. I shop vac'd it out and it seemed that there shouldn't be fluid there at all (no obvious coolant passages, to me). The EGR tube insides are also black, wet and fuel smelling. I also emptied most of the radiator fluid (about a half gallon, very low) and found it to be perfectly normal orange coolant without contaminants. I read a lot about this motor being notorious for it's intake manifold gasket failing due to that it has a plastic perimeter and that the manifold itself is plastic. My biggest question is how do I know for certainty where and how far to go. Is the Head gasket in question, rings, rods or anything else damaged that needs to be replaced? I'm ok with doing extensive work myself as long as I know what it is that I'm after, in other words diagnosing the problem IS my problem. I have no qualms with throwing a couple hundred bucks for parts and the time into it but the budget doesn't allow for much more, like professional service is not an option. I have pictures if anyone would like to see them of the car, the disassembled pieces and the pool of fluid also I can take any others that are asked of me. So in recap the car hasn't started or attempted to yet in my posession. I got it apart as far as the intake manifold. It cranks totally fine with no odd noises at all. I'm blaming the high oil level on a failed gasket somewhere and coolant mixing and bringing the level up but I'm posting cause I can't be sure. Should I just rip it down to change the head gaskets, valve cover gaskets and whatever else while it's being played with, is thhat the only way of knowing other th ings will be fine now? This will be the nicest car I've ever owned and I will really love to be cruising it this summer on some road trips and start pampering her with extras at the point I know she will survive for years to come. Any help, ideas or questions people will be of incalcuable value to me, many thanks in advance!! What do you think?
Eric
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:06 PM   #2
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Re: Procedure to bring this car to life-intake manifold gasket?

Obviously, your Upper Intake Manifold (UIM) has the typical EGR burn out. Get a new UIM with the upgraded EGR tube, about 100-bucks. Do not attempt to turn the engine over any more, until you replace the UIM & change the oil & filter (using a cheap Wally World brand); otherwise you may destroy the bottom-end. Once you have everything clean & replaced, change the oil & filter again after about 250 miles & upgrade the oil & filter to what is normally recommended. Good Luck. BTW, does the pic below look anything like what you found when you removed the UIM?

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Old 06-06-2009, 09:32 PM   #3
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Question Re: Procedure to bring this car to life-intake manifold gasket?

Thanks for the reply HotZ28. I will track down and purchase that new intake with the upgraded EGR tube that you mentioned. I wonder, is that a metal manifold to replace the plastic one and if it comes with the metal framed gasket I've heard about. So in your opinion, you think everything else (head gasket, rings and such) is ok and needs no more inspection? That the UIM is the only culprit and things will be peachy upon replacement? Do I not need to clean or replace other things from this mess?That picture looks like ya got it off my camera! HaHa. The fluid was brown in mine tho, mixing with something? Other than that I will follow your advice and report back with the results. Many thanks again, Cheers
Eric
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Old 06-06-2009, 10:14 PM   #4
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Re: Procedure to bring this car to life-intake manifold gasket?

Click Here & Here for the part numbers of the UIM replacement & aluminum LIM gaskets. Unfortunately, the replacement UIM is plastic also, but comes with more clearance for the EGR tube, so you should get better service form the replacement. Hard to say if any damage to the bottom end has resulted from this problem until you get things back together and see how it runs. BTW, you will need new plugs too, more than likely the existing ones will not fire. Good Luck and keep us informed.
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Old 06-07-2009, 12:23 PM   #5
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Re: Procedure to bring this car to life-intake manifold gasket?

Ok, I'm still wrapping my head around all of this information and advice I've encountered thus far. I have a bunch more questions before I get to the comfortable mind set that I've done all I need to for this project and put her back together. Does the presence of a pool of coolant in the UIM prove that the failed part is that gasket and that gasket alone? Does the brown color of the coolant found indicate another issue? How did it get brown while the coolant left in the radiator is how it should be? Mixing with the soot in the intake or does oil get up there? Is the cakey soot in the intake a result of this problem? It's only LEAVING a coolant passage, not returning? Do I clear the coolant from the chambers by removing all the plugs then cranking the motor after things are together?
Some people advise to replace the LIM gasket, head gaskets and valve cover gaskets since you've gone this far which sounds to make logical sense to me. Is that the most sensible thing to do to be sure to have inspected and/or replaced all the possible issues? Since I've read that the problem returns for some people or that it doesn't run perfectly after wards I'm thinking of taking those extra steps to insure success. NO? Should I be replacing even other parts too like the EGR, MAF. Is there a test I should be performing at some point along the way here? In the second link you sent BNaylor says to of course pull the UIM and the LIM, this will also aid in deciphering which of the two gaskets I need, pinned or unpinned. I ask so many questions because I know how easy it is to have missed something at a time it could have been found and repaired or at least replaced to avoid a problem that's bound to soon arise.
Dorman only supplies by wholesale right?
GM parts
89017816 pinned UIM gasket
89017817 unpinned UIM gasket
89017554 UIM gasket kit
89017272 UIM kit
89017400 LIM gasket
24508923 LIM
Can i find anything cheaper at a parts store? Aren't dealer prices always more expensive for the same parts?
Many many thanks for your advice so far and congrats in giving me my best birthday (today) gift, knowledge.
Eric
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Old 06-07-2009, 01:38 PM   #6
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Re: Procedure to bring this car to life-intake manifold gasket?

Happy Birthday!!
Quote:
Does the presence of a pool of coolant in the UIM prove that the failed part is that gasket and that gasket alone?
No, the failure results from the EGR tube melting a hole into the UIM plastic coolant passages near (behind) the throttle body mounting (See pic @ bottom)
Quote:
Does the brown color of the coolant found indicate another issue? How did it get brown while the coolant left in the radiator is how it should be?
When coolant & oil mix, it turns a chocolate brown color. Remember, coolant was ingested into the crankcase via the leak in the UIM.
Quote:
Mixing with the soot in the intake or does oil get up there? Is the cakey soot in the intake a result of this problem?
NO!
Quote:
It's only LEAVING a coolant passage, not returning?
Right!
Quote:
Do I clear the coolant from the chambers by removing all the plugs then cranking the motor after things are together?
That would be a good idea before you put the new plugs in.
Quote:
Some people advise to replace the LIM gasket, head gaskets and valve cover gaskets since you've gone this far which sounds to make logical sense to me. Is that the most sensible thing to do to be sure to have inspected and/or replaced all the possible issues?
Replacing the LIM, & valve cover gaskets are a matter of personal preference, but the head gaskets should not require replacement unless the engine severely overheated.
Quote:
Since I've read that the problem returns for some people or that it doesn't run perfectly after wards I'm thinking of taking those extra steps to insure success. NO?
Some things you mentioned are not necessary. like the head gaskets.
Quote:
Should I be replacing even other parts too like the EGR, MAF. Is there a test I should be performing at some point along the way here? In the second link you sent BNaylor says to of course pull the UIM and the LIM, this will also aid in deciphering which of the two gaskets I need, pinned or unpinned.
EGR & MAF should be fine, you may need a MAP sensor, but that can be determined when the job is complete. Some blocks came with pin holes and others did not, that is the reason you would need to remove the LIM to see if your block has the pin holes before you buy the gaskets. BTW, there is nothing wrong with the FelPro brand LIM gasket set. They should last as long as the rest of the car!
Quote:
I ask so many questions because I know how easy it is to have missed something at a time it could have been found and repaired or at least replaced to avoid a problem that's bound to soon arise.
Better safe than sorry; however, no need for the overkill!
Quote:
Dorman only supplies by wholesale right?
Wrong, you can buy everything you need at Advanced- Kragen-Checkers-O'Reilly Auto parts. Do some shopping online, or if you have one of these stores locally, take the list to them. You would pay a premium price @ the dealer for these parts, so shop elsewhere!


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Old 06-07-2009, 03:06 PM   #7
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Talking Re: Procedure to bring this car to life-intake manifold gasket?

Man, thank you kindly for breaking things down for me, it was just what I needed, you rock! Ok, I'll just go and replace the UIM and gasket, the oil and filter deal and the plugs and see what happens. I called a few places and found it for 135. at C.A.P with the gasket. I'm headed out to get the shopping list items and play more with it tonight, with luck I'll hear it run for the first time. I'll fill ya in with an update.
Eric
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