Is it really that hard...

[Chris V]

... to actually appreciate all cars, even if you have favorites that you prefer? Why does every teenager find it so important to hate on things that aren't their current favorites? I'm starting to wonder if it's related to the ability to actually think.

*I* have favorite cars. But I can appreciate all kinds of cars, from imports to domestics, from new to old, from fast to slow. Stock and custom (and even art cars), even if the customizing isn't something I would do myself.


Why do people have to hate on things that aren't their favorites in order to justify HAVING those favorites? Why is that expression of opinion so important? In all my years on automotive forums I run across all sorts of variations on this behavior. And invariably the people that know the most about cars, tend to exhibit this behavior the least. And invariably, the people that argue loudest that it's their right to act this way, know the absolute least.



I don't know. I've just never found it that hard to be able to enjoy the rush of a torquey big block pushing you off the line in a roar of thunder, and turn around and enjoy the rip of a small engine winding up and flinging you forward. I have no problem driving classic American muscle and modern Japanese sport coupes. I can drive a slow lowrider as easily as a full race Sports GT. A showcar built for artistic expression is as valid as a race car built for pure speed. I enjoy the feel of a good manual shifter, and the speed and power use of a good automatic. FWD, AWD, RWD doesn't matter, as long as the car is doing the job that's asked of it. A couple tenths of a second difference in accelleration figures isn't enough to crown one car the ultimate and it's competitor an utter pile of crap. And a few seconds difference in accelleration isn't enough to make me not want to drive a car on the street. And who else owns a car isn't enough of an excuse to drive or not drive an example of that car.

But so many people I talk to lately, especially young or inexperienced people (i.e. they've only driven one kind of car their whole life), seem completely and utterly incapable of seeing that all of them are mass produced mechanical devices, and that while their favorite might be perfect for them, other choices are not POS simply because they are not their first choice. Whether it's import drivers hating "low tech domestics," Domestic drivers hating "rice rockets" or Euro drivers thinking anything else is a low class POS, it's all the end result of the same thing.

So why is it so prevalent? Tribal behavior?

This is the point I've made on may sites. "My family is better than their family. My school is better than their school. My team is better than their team. My community is better than their community. My state or nation is better, etc." Even people who don't want to be affiliated with a club or community or society are trying to fit in with others who are also trying not to fit in with that club, community or society.

Once a favorite is picked, championing that favorite seems to mean that you HAVE to loudly proclaim how much everything else sucks. The irony is that my favorite is striving for knowledge, and the goal of NOT striving for knowledge sucks.

Yes, lamenting that every teenager coming onto forums acts that way was hyperbole, exaggeration for effect (though after the recent spate of noobs on most forums I'm on, the percentage that doesn't act that way is frighteningly small). And there are enough adults that act the same way, due to not being confronted with larger experience before. I don't want anyone to think I'm getting down on teenagers or younger people. And it's an intersting question to wonder if my generation would have acted this way had there been the internet and anonymous international forums available to us. I mean, things are said on forums that would never have been broached in person were you to join up with a community of experienced people in your chosen hobby or industry.

But it is arguable that the level of incivility even in person has risen in recent years, as has been the rise of the opinion being more important than anything. And really, who's to blame? Parents? Politicians setting a bad example? The instantaneousness of news and a glut of information (not all of which is valid)?

I don't know. What I do know is I'm tired of spending time to research information, back it up with decades of experience, and then have people who don't have much if any experience argue that their opinions on it are factual, and that they should be allowed to hate on and denigrate other people's cars because it's their right to do so. "I hate rice burners. They all need to die." "I hate pushrod engines." "I hate Fords." "I hate Dodges." "I hate Hondas." "I hate VWs" "I hate trucks" "I hate older cars." "I hate newer cars." "I hate cheap cars." "I hate chrome wheels, and if you put them on your car, you're stupid and I will insult you." "I hate lowered cars." "I hate drifting." "I hate NASCAR" "I hate automatics." "I hate" "I hate" "I hate"

..........................................

Yes, part of this forum is "cars I hate." But too often, that hate is a poorly thought out, and frankly ignorant statement of opinion based on a near total lack of knowledge. Why is that such a valuable goal to strive for? If you're going to dislike something, at least have the decency to hae a clear, solid reason that allows you to dislike it and also not instantly be insulting to those that DO like it. Because quite frankly, people will like the things you don't, and others may dislike things that are your favorites. the simple solution is to buy what you like and don't insult things that arn't your favorite. Best yet, strive to learn waht you can abuot your chosen field of interest and learn how not to hate in the first place.

[dimefury]

that was one of the most well written, clearly expressed, and true statements that i have had the pleasure of reading on these forums in weeks. (possibly ever)
is this in response to the "minis" thread in CIH/CIL over the past couple days that turned into an insult match rather than a disscussion of pros and cons about the car?
i wish i was as good a writer as you, but in liew of beautiful prose i'll just give you this.........

chris v

[RavagePenguin]

I agree. As longs as the car go fast I like it. I admit I hate some cars but not just in one brand. Each car company makes good and bad cars.

[Filthy Sanchez]

Can I get an AMEN!?

[G-man422]

^^you my friend, pulled the words right out of my mouth. Chris V, i often wonder why people cant just appreciate cars for their beauty/power as well. GOOD POINT!

[Chris V]

And yet, more threads are made to try and prove what they hate. Why is it so important to hate?

[jveik]

lol yeah im fine with most cars i just like muscle cars better... i do hate cars that are pieces of crud and the owners talk them up too much, regardless of what make or model it is from a chevy truck to a honda accord lol. any customized or restored car that shows more than a half-ass approach to fixing it up is fine lol... just like the first post said, the torque of a big block is awesome as well as the import engine wrapping out at high rpm's

[proudfordowner]

well.. that was the greatest thing ive eva heard!! *starts crying*

great points

i love the presentation!

[mason_RsX]

Originally Posted by Chris V

...
This is the point I've made on may sites. "My family is better than their family. My school is better than their school. My team is better than their team. My community is better than their community. My state or nation is better, etc." Even people who don't want to be affiliated with a club or community or society are trying to fit in with others who are also trying not to fit in with that club, community or society.

Once a favorite is picked, championing that favorite seems to mean that you HAVE to loudly proclaim how much everything else sucks. The irony is that my favorite is striving for knowledge, and the goal of NOT striving for knowledge sucks.

Sorry to bring negativity on your lovey dovey thread of happiness, but its human nature to seperate yourself from others, and its our competitive nature that leads us to love A hate B, but that doesn't necessarily make it ignorant or wrong.... for example

I HATE THE YANKEES! say whatever you want about my family your family, trying to fit into a club, but I absolutely loathe each and every player on the Yankees team and their upper management (Except Derek Jeter...hes my hero)...im sorry if my Go Toronto Blue Jays booo New York Yankees offends you but I am a competitive person, and the nature of the game is to win...

I know cars and baseball are quite different, but in the end their both profit generating organizations, and their both extremely competitive...so if somebody likes Fords, and hates GM's I see it as me liking team A and hating team B...You can still strive for knowledge about each seperate group while maintaing a liking of one...I can name off the starting lineup for the Yankees + their starting rotation...but I still hate them

My point is you can still maintain bias while trying to gain knowledge at the same time. Personally, I don't have a favourite car company, but if I loved GM's and hated Hondas that doesn't necessarily make me any less knowledgable of cars than you.............Now if I maintain an ignorance and love GM's and hate Hondas thats different...but theres nothing wrong with choosing a side while ganing knowledge about both sides

[Jimster]

It is stupid to hate cars JUST because of what maker/country they're from.


That's why I hate cars that are so bad at doing what they were designed for on a purely case-by-case basis.

[Moppie]

The whole concept of having to hate something simply because its differnt comes from 3 things:

Fear and ignorance, which is a primitive emotion mixed with lack of education and is easily fixed.

Monothiestic religeous ideas that there must be good and evil in the world.
Easily fixed by removing them from society through education of the masses.

Cultural ideals based on Christian ideals spread by the USA.
Easily fixed by giving the Britsh back what the French took.

[Chris V]

Originally Posted by mason_RsX

Sorry to bring negativity on your lovey dovey thread of happiness, but its human nature to seperate yourself from others, and its our competitive nature that leads us to love A hate B, but that doesn't necessarily make it ignorant or wrong.... for example

I HATE THE YANKEES! say whatever you want about my family your family, trying to fit into a club, but I absolutely loathe each and every player on the Yankees team and their upper management (Except Derek Jeter...hes my hero)...im sorry if my Go Toronto Blue Jays booo New York Yankees offends you but I am a competitive person, and the nature of the game is to win...

If you read my post, I talked about EXACTLY that sort of tribal behavior, and that it's primitive human nature. The problem is that even people likeyou who see it, are incapab;le of uing intelligence to rise above it. In st4ead of saying "can't we grwo up and use some intelligence" you defend that sort of hateful, insulting behavior as some sort of virtue, and it's NOT.

My point is you can still maintain bias while trying to gain knowledge at the same time. Personally, I don't have a favourite car company, but if I loved GM's and hated Hondas that doesn't necessarily make me any less knowledgable of cars than you.............Now if I maintain an ignorance and love GM's and hate Hondas thats different...but theres nothing wrong with choosing a side while ganing knowledge about both sides

Yes, in fact, there IS something wrong with HATING another mechanical device simply because it isn't the one you chose. That's the POINT of the thread! the primitive need to HAVE to choose sides. Us vs them. If you can hate it, you ARE being ignorant. Period. The fact that you can't see it proves just how insidious that ignorance is. You are incapable of using your intelligence to remove bias from passing judgement. If you used intelligence, you would be abe to appreciate the differences, and the virutes of each, and WHY others might like them. You can't see that they are both cars, that they both can do just about any job the other can do, just maybe in a slightly differnt way. That's the point.

I don't hate any make, model, brand, country of origin, and can find something to appreciate regardless of type of car, where it's from, or what era. It's not that hard. And learning more about cars in general, and I'm not talking about how they work to fix them, but how they came to be, the reasoning and people behind them, and how they are viewed worldwide, will make it harder to hate on any car. Thus, learning DOES equate into not hating.

[drunken monkey]

part 1:
i hate people who tell me what i can or cannot do
i hate people who tell me what i can or cannot say
i hate people who do not allow me to have my own opinion
i hate people who put me into a catagory without even knowing me

part 2:
i hate that car for breaking down on me when i needed it the most
i hate that car because once, a git drove one into the back of my car
i hate that car because it breaks from that maunfacturers traditions
i hate that car because it makes too much pollution
i hate that car because for the money it costs to build it and buy one, you could feed a village in africa for years.

part 3:
i'm sure hitler wasn't that bad a guy, after all, he was a good speach giver
killing babies isn't too bad cos it helps keep the population down
there's nothing wrong with genocide as it opens up new jobs



ignorance works in many ways.

[Chris V]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

part 1:
i hate people who tell me what i can or cannot do
i hate people who tell me what i can or cannot say
i hate people who do not allow me to have my own opinion
i hate people who put me into a catagory without even knowing me

Ok, DM. let's have a go:

It seems to be you are saying here that all opinions are equally valid. You're saying that all information given is equally valid. if you came on a car forum and asked how to repair something on your car, would you want factual information or mere opinion? To make it a little more interesting, if you were in need of medical advice, and someone said you could cure your heart problems by rubbing grape jelley on your chest and chanting, woudl you say that information was valid, useful and worthy of being listened to? Would you follow that advice? Why or why not?

Backing it off, if you were asking how to do a paint repair on the door of your car and someone said first to prep the area by applying armor all and rubbig it to a high shine, then scuff it slightly before painting, would THAT advice be valid? Would that opinion be something that should be factually listened to? if not, why not? And if it's NOT factual, then is that opinion valid or not?

If someone came on and said all 4 cyl cars are slow and none of them can ever be fast, AND they backed it up with the "fact" that they owneda '77 rabbit L that was very slow, would that opinion be valid and factual? If you pointed out fast 4 cyl cars and they said " I dont care, it's my opinion and everyone is entitled to their opinion," would you think that person was an intelligent, knowledgeable car enthusiast?

Simply put, opinions can in fact be wrong, even if they are couched as opinions, as MOST "opinions" are actually assertations of fact. Like this one.

[drunken monkey]

how on earth did you get that from my post?

in any case, your response is what i expected.


you are constantly mixing up discussions of fact and discussions of opinion into one big mess.
IF we were asking for advice on how to prep and paint a car, then there are known facts in the equation.
IF we were instead talking about cars that we may or may not like/dislike, then that is based on opinions formed by personal experience for which there is no fact (in the examples of personal opinions) other than the facts that we know because of those personal experiences.
my facts based on my experiences may not be the same as the facts based on yours and yet they are both facts.
once again, this is not the same as the facts such as procedures for prepping a car for paint.
and once again, anyone can have a valid reason for hating a car and that reason need not be based on facts. Let's not even go into the possiblity that his reasons may be because of a fact with the particular car taht he experienced.

of course, if you had taken the whole of my post, you would've seen that, instead of the argument that you seem to think only you understand and am right in.