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Old 06-28-2005, 11:05 AM   #1
Suburban-97
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97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

A few days ago I noticed a few drops of an unidentified liquid under my vehicle. At first I was scared, because it was red/orange and I thought it was transmission fluid. But it was Dex Cool.. I brought the Burb to a local shop and within 20 seconds I was diagnosed as having a defective water pump. I agreed to having it replaced with a new one, blindly trusting this mechanic's gut feeling. All together it cost about 350, since the serpentine belt needed changed too. Fair enough. Expensive (to me), but it took care of the problem I was having.

(Go figure!)

I drove it home and everything seemed fine. I thought that the anti-freeze smell around the vehicle was kinda normal, given the fact that my car has just been worked on, and that there might be some Dex Cool residue from the leak that I just took care of..

Right after turning it off, I popped the hood, engine was nice and dry, so was the radiator. I looked under the vehicle and everything was nice and dry too. No leak any more.

Next day, to my surprise, there was the same leak again, the same liquid (Dex Cool), and the same location under the car.. Man, I just spent over 300 bucks to have a brand new water pump put in and there it goes again!! I was very, VERY disappointed..

The engine did not run since I parked it after having it 'fixed', and the distance from the shop to my house was only 0.5 miles. I know for sure that whatever the problem was the day before I was still having it. I have doubts that it was the water pump. At 125K miles maybe it wasn't such a bad thing to replace the water pump after all, but the main thing is that it did NOT stop my leak, which was the actual cause for my car shop visit.

I took a flashlight and I was trying to trace the leak to its origin. It was leaking from somewhere in the engine area, then slowly weeping along the passenger side bar that is screwed under the transmission in a 45 degree or so angle (maybe it's something else, I don't know much about cars), then from that pan dripping on the ground. The places where the Dex Cool comes from are not very accessible, so I started looking around from all sides of the engine, from above, from below, etc. Finally, I discovered a very small orange puddle right under the thermostat housing. You have to look at it in the right angle, to hold the flashlight in the right position to see it.. It is way above the water pump and now I see that it was possible that this same Dex Cool was weeping along the water pump making it look like there was a water pump problem. Does it sound like a possibility to you? I think it could be plausible..

Anyhow, since I am not a mechanic (actually more of an ignorant person when it comes to cars - BUT ALWAYS WILLING TO LEARN!), I was wondering what could cause cooland to leak from somewhere under the thermostat?!? Visibly, there is nothing there, no leak as far as you can see around the thermostat or surrounding hoses. I even tried to look through a miniature telescope mirror in order to gain access to the bottom of the thermostat, but I still can't see anything. Still.. I kind of know why I wasn't able to see any leaks when the engine was still hot: It simply was because the leak is so tiny that it evaporates when it hits the block. But when the engine is cold again, you can see the coolant gathering in that small puddle under the thermostat housing again, then slowly weeping as I previously described it.

Yesterday a friend of mine came by with a small hand pump that you connect to the radiator and you can pressurize the cooling system. Indeed, the origin of the leak is right there, under the thermostat, we were able to see it right away, as soon as we put pressure on the system, this time in an accelerated mode, probably because the pressure that my friend applied to the radiator was a little higher than what it usually gets when you drive this vehicle.

I tried to take a picture of it, I know it is a VERY dark spot there, you might not see it, so I enhanced the brightness just for the troubled spot. Please take a look at the picture, it is here:

>>> PICTURE OF THE LEAK <<<

(Please look in the brighter rectangle, where the red arrow points at!)

With all this knowledge I brought my vehicle back to the shop today. I wasn't surprised at all to hear the guy's version of the facts: 'The water pump was really leaking, blah, blah... Do you know how many of these I do a week???'.
Remember that the whole diagnose took 20 seconds the first time around? It took me about an hour to find where the leak came from. Maybe he would have found it too if he looked.
The car shop guy recommended that I do nothing, but throw a whole load (read 'bottle') of Bars Leak in the radiator and it will take care of the problem..

Now I am asking you: What do you think? Any ideas what is under the thermostat that could possibly leak, or maybe behind it where I can't see?!? It is definitely coolant that we're talking about, that I know for sure! Is it maybe something a stupid guy like me can fix at home given plenty of time and the right tools on hand? Or was maybe the shop guy's solution good as well? Is Bars Leak the silver bullet to fix my problem?

Again, it is not something that qualifies as a huge leak, it is only weeping along, slowly, it would total to maybe not much more than 4-5 oz / day. But it is definitely bothering me and I would like to take care of it. I don't like broken stuff, not even half-broken, or little broken..... Especially when I have already paid more than 300 dollars to 'take care' of it..

Many thanks in advance for your input on this!!!!!!
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Old 06-28-2005, 07:15 PM   #2
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

My neighbor has a 97 Yukon and he asked me to look at his coolant leak. It was leaking exactly where you describe it. It was the intake manifold gaskets which is very common with the 96-99 Vortec engines.

I recommend against the bars leak since it can clog up the radiator. I used a coolant pressure tester to verify the leak.

//2000CAYukon
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Old 06-28-2005, 07:36 PM   #3
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If the mechanic (and I use that term loosely) knew what he was doing, he would have performed a pressure test and verified his diagnosis before selling you a water pump.
He obviously has no clue what he is doing.
Your intake is leaking and as soon as I starting reading your post I had a good feeling that was the problem before seeing the picture.
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Old 06-28-2005, 09:41 PM   #4
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

I wish I found this forum before I had my water pump 'fixed'...

Before I even had a chance to read your replies, another friend of mine looked at the leak this afternoon, and the first thing he said was: 'How about the intake manifold? Did they (the guys at the shop) check on that too??'. What a coincidence! So it was THAT obvious what that problem was?!?!? I guess I am going to the wrong shop, am I?!?
Well, until then I didn't even know what an intake manifold was and that it has gaskets too..

2000CAYukon, you are so right: if car hobbyists like me and my friend were able to make the leak visible by putting pressure on the cooling system, then how come this 'mechanic', who actually makes a living 'fixing' cars didn't think of that BEFORE his water pump diagnose?
GMMerlin, I am wondering.., is it maybe possible that selling me a water pump brought this guy more money in the house than actually fixing the leak for real by replacing the intake manifold gasket(s)? That would be my next question: How does it cost to replace those gaskets? Is it just one or more gaskets? Does it call for time in the shop, or is it something I could do?

Again, thank you very much for your prompt replies on this! It makes me feel better now.. I will NOT put any bars leak in my radiator. My short internet research today kind of confirmed what 2000CAYukon said about it - sounds like a solution only when you look for a temporary fix, then replace the radiator, water pump, etc. Instead of changing the radiator after a Bars Leak session I will change my car shop first! Hey, people on the Net do not recommend using Bars Leak in Florida anyway, because I need 105% of my cooling system at any given time, especially now in the hot summer.. Bars Leak is supposed to cut on the cooling system's efficiency. So it really seems like I am giving more than I am receiving by using Bars Leak.. Thanks a lot for your advice! I will follow it!
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Old 06-29-2005, 12:06 AM   #5
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

Suburban-97,
When my neighbor and I figured out it was the intake gasket, I did not have enough time to do the job for him. His dealer wanted over $1000 for the job. One of my softball buddies is the service manager at a local shop that did it for $650. This is based on California shop rates. There is a lot of stuff that needs to come off. My dad only paid $400 for the job in Florida so prices will vary on location.

Best bet is to get some estimates for an Intake gasket replacement on your truck.

//2000CAYukon
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Old 06-29-2005, 12:29 AM   #6
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Re: Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban-97
2000CAYukon, you are so right: if car hobbyists like me and my friend were able to make the leak visible by putting pressure on the cooling system, then how come this 'mechanic', who actually makes a living 'fixing' cars didn't think of that BEFORE his water pump diagnose?
GMMerlin, I am wondering.., is it maybe possible that selling me a water pump brought this guy more money in the house than actually fixing the leak for real by replacing the intake manifold gasket(s)? That would be my next question: How does it cost to replace those gaskets? Is it just one or more gaskets? Does it call for time in the shop, or is it something I could do?
In all fairness, I was a mechanic many years ago during college. It sure helped with gas and beer money. I bought the cooling system testing pressure tester back then.

Either he did not take the time to diagnois the problem and/or he is not familiar with GM 96-99 Vortec engines. The intake gasket is a very common problem with these engines.

It could also be that the pump was starting to leak. I know that on my 90 K1500, the water pump went out around 98 or 99 and it had about 90K on the clock then. If he had taken the time to pressure test, he would have seen both leaks (if the pump was leaking).

Unfortunately for you, it is still leaking.

//2000CAYukon
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Old 06-29-2005, 06:36 AM   #7
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

So actually the shop guy would have made more money if he had fixed the intake manifold gasket.. It's not just about the money, it's about the fact that he didn't find the real cause of the leak.
And no, he is not a GM freak either, local people mainly prefer this shop because the mechanic is an European who's majority of repairs are on foreign cars and he does a very good job on those..
I think some Americans (like me) think that if a guy is good enough to fix European cars, then he can master American cars. I need to change my mind though.. American cars and European cars are different, and the best way to fix an American car is through an American guy. I would have preferred someone who looks at my vehicle and says: 'Well, given it's a '97 Suburban with a 5.7L Vortec engine, I would check for the intake manifold gasket because it's a common problem with this generation of engines, and if that's not it, then..... blah blah...'
My mechanic probably knows that a '93 Porsche Carrera 4 has a problem with something and that a 2002 Volkswagen Passat has problems with something else, but has no idea that a '97 Chevy Vortec engine has an intake manifold gasket issue..
I will try to get quotes today, I looked up the "intake manifold gasket" on the Internet, and now I know what it looks like, and I know it isn't something I can just do in my garage. Hey, I tried

When it leaks like that.. does the gasket need to be replaced right away, or can I still drive the vehicle? Any advice on how I can still drive it without killing the engine? I am not Bill Gates, you know.. I need to work a few weeks before I can afford this repair..
Is it possible that it leaks on the inside too? Or maybe soon? Oil level/color is normal now, and the only coolant missing is the one that I see under the car.
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Old 06-29-2005, 01:38 PM   #8
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

Ok, as I was told today by a good friend, it looks like it is still possible to drive the Suburban with this small intake manifold gasket leak, as long as I keep an eye on the temp gauge and the coolant level, etc.
In fact I just drove it 1,400 miles some 3 weeks ago and other than the sweet smell of anti-freeze getting to my nose now and then, I didn't even know I had a leak.....

And if everything goes well, my friend (who has done this before on his 88 Burbie) and I will try to do this repair by oursleves. Ta Daaa!!!
We will follow the advice posted by guys like GMMerlin and 70Camaro HERE and see what happens.

We plan on replacing the intake manifold gaskets in the days following the 4th of July. I will keep you posted.
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:09 PM   #9
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

You will probably be OK if you do it next week but keep an eye on your coolant level and check your oil everyday. Mine started out like yours a small spot on the floor and progressed quickly to leaking coolant into the crankcase. This turned the oil into a milkshake brown, thinned down the oil to where the lifters were making a hell of a noise. Luckily the wife shut it down before it did any damage and I was able to replace the intake gaskets myself. A word of advice...go to the library and get the correct procedure for setting the base timing on the 5.7L Vortec. My son and I marked everything and was very careful when we pulled the distibutor and when we reinstalled it and the motor was not rotated while it was out. The SES light was on when we started it I ended up taking it to a mechanic and his scanner said the base timing was off. He had to pull the distributor out and set the base timing correctly per the manual. At one time I had a copy of the procedure but it's gone now. Good luck with the project.
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Old 06-29-2005, 05:48 PM   #10
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

The intake gasket on an 88 is different then your 97 but that does not mean you can't do it yourself. The timing needs to be set with a scan tool (unlike the 88 that can be set with a timing light).

My dad drove his with a leak for 3 or 4 months. He checked the level every morning and added as necessary.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

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Old 06-29-2005, 07:01 PM   #11
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

So.. 2000CAYukon and Old Dave.. From what you say, I simply understand that no matter how huge the effort, the timing will still be messed up at the end of this whole procedure, right?

Is it still avoidable at all? If yes, how?
(Please don't say: "By visiting a car shop and letting your European mechanic take care of it!")



Right now I am making a list with what I need for this operation and I have one more question for you guys:
What kind of gasket sealant should I use? I read a few posts about non-Silicone sealers being better than the ones with silicone, and Fel-Pro, the company that makes my gasket set makes a few (BLU4, YEL5 and RED3). I didn't even buy the set yet, maybe it comes with a sealer in it and makes all my worries obsolete

Thanks for the advice, I'll keep you posted as promised.. and may come back with more questions before that.
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:11 PM   #12
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

Old Dave, about your previous post and your...
"word of advice...go to the library and get the correct procedure for setting the base timing on the 5.7L Vortec."
What exactly did you find at the library? Was is a Chevy repair/service manual like a Chilton's or was it something else?
Any help is appreciated!
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:17 PM   #13
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

Please take a look at this thread http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...17#post2613117

When removing the dist, you need to mark where the rotor is pointing and the location of the housing. Then you can't move the engine at all. Reinstall making sure the rotor points exactly where is was and the housing is in the same position. If you are lucky, the timing will be fine. If the Check Engine Light comes on, then you will need to have someone with a scan tool adjust the timing.

Here is thread about timing the vortec engines: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=350633

I would get the FelPro MS98000T Gasket Set. This includes both the upper and lower intake gaskets but also includes the valve cover gaskets. This is the PermaPlusDry Intake gaskets that the thread above refers to.

//2000CAYukon
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:57 PM   #14
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

Strictly follow the torque sequences to make sure you have a good seal all around the manifold. Also I would reccommend replacing your distributor gear if it at all looks shiny in spots because soon your SES light will come on and you won't know why. Sometimes you can set the timing but usualy the light will come back on soon cause the gear is soft and slowly wearing out! I'm not trying to spend your money for you but I had this problem and the part was only $40 bucks, buy from GM ONLY!!

And if you're lucky and your SES light doesn't come on you're good, but if it does get the car to a scanner (GM) and have the timing set properly and you're good for another 100K miles plus.

The only reason I mention this gear is because they are prone to fail at around 100K miles and you will already have the disriutor out to change the manifold gasket. Read my thread below about the "OBDII P-1345 Code" and my last posting on it and you'll see why it's a good idea. GOOD LUCK!!!

Oh yeah, when you're all done and it's running good with no leaks, change the oil in case any Dex cool leaked it's way in to your crankcase.
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Old 06-29-2005, 11:37 PM   #15
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Re: 97-Suburban - Coolant weeping under thermostat housing.. [CHECK PICTURE!]

Hmm.., I just opened the motor oil filler cap and there is some dry, dark, rusty-colored 'something' on its inside and on the inside wall of the filler pipe as well.

Does it mean it is getting worse and I have Dex Cool leaking into the crank case already???

Scary, scary..

Looks like I might ride the bike this week

PS - Thanks for the hint about the distributor gear, gregory914, I will definitely consider replacing it if there's even the smallest hint that it could quit on me. I read your post on that. Interesting. Part $30 at Autozone, not even that expensive..
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