M3 vs C32 vs C55 vs S4

[V8slayer]

I don't buy second hand!

[finally_retired]

For god sake, use your imagination! There are 1000's of cars on the market!

[drunken monkey]

so let's see, you've just dropped the kids off at school at you feel like a quick blast, you'd first go home, pick up the sporty little number before having your fun?

let's see, pay once for insurance?
pay twice for insurance..... services..... mot......

why, blow me away with a really big fan.
there's the purpose right there.
to have both a fast, capable car that seats 4, that can be used gently when needed and like a devil on speed when you feel like it.

here's a little question.
if the Audi S4 isn't trying to be a 'sports' car
(well, the brand in general)
then why are they spending millions of pounds trying to improve chassis/steering to be more BMW like?

if the M3 is purposeless, why do so many cars try to imitate it?
why is the M3 lost when the CLK55 AMG isn't?
oh yeah, the CLK55 isn't trying to be a sports car....
wait a minute, isn't AMG a performance brand?

what's that about 'lost' again?

"Its vast array of models appeals to a vast array of people. Which in turn, earns then a vast profit. Quite simple really"

and this is why i'm not a big fan of them.
even you admit that the quality of the past has been less than good and this was mostly to do with profit.

all of a sudden, instead of enginnering a car then seeing how much it costs,
they started to make cars to a budget.
yes, they've been trying to remedy this but it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

"compete easily with a Ferrari or Aston Martin, and devours 911's"
and once upon a time they could also compare image/brand wise.
to me, it's a shame that MB felt the need to pamper to the masses.
what used to be on a par with ferrari, porsche, aston martin et al is now instead compared to Volkswagon and Audi.

[finally_retired]

AMG is a tuning firm. And I wouldn't buy a CLK. VW and Mercedes are worlds apart. And BMW aren't exactly up there with Astons and Lambo's.

I don't have anything against BMW. I love the old M5, and cant wait for the new one. I'm sure that I would consider an M3 if it were a little more like a 330i Saloon.

You don't need to MOT a car for the first 3 years of its life, and servicing dosn't break the bank.

I understand what you are saying when you drop the kids off, and want to blast home, but my S600 can still shift, and will put a smile on my face if I wan it too. A 325i is no slug, nor is a Lexus GS300.

[DinanM3_S2]

Originally Posted by finally_retired

The CL can't be compared to a 645Ci. Theres a price difference of over £20'000 and the CL is not availabe in a cabrio version. The 6 series offers a 3 litre and 4.4 litre, while the CL offers a 5 litre, 5.5 litre V8 supercharged, 5.6 V12, and a 5.6 V12 Twin Turbo. No comparison.

Well... that Benz 5.0L in the CL500 (which costs much more) just so happens to have less power then the BMW 4.4L in the 645Ci. 302hp v. 325hp. As for the CL55 and CL600, the BMW M6 is due in the next year or two, and will come with the same 500bhp V10 and 7 speed SMG from the M5. So the only CL class car I dont see as competition for the 6 is the CL65, which costs over $170,000.

As for your comment on "why not get two different cars," not everyone wants two different cars that when combined can do the same thing as one car. You can't drive two cars at once... Watch me do the same thing to your car...

SL65 AMG: $180,000
Used Ferrari 360 Spyder F1: $111,000
Used BMW M5: $60,000?
Theres your luxury+sports all for less then your SL65... But it doesnt make much sense, does it?

The way I see it, the AMG and S brands only exist because of M. M was the first of the German in house tuners that took existing cars and made them sportier. When Benz and Audi saw how successful the M cars were, they wanted a piece of the action.

If the M3 has an identity crisis, then AMG and S must be the dumbest things in the world for attempting to copy an identity crisis, however my theory is that the M3 is a car that created a whole new idea of car design, and started what I see as an awesome segment, which gave birth to cars like the S4, C55, CTS-V, etc...

[drunken monkey]

"And BMW aren't exactly up there with Astons and Lambo's."

but they never really were in the first place.
at least not in the way that MB were in the past.

[V8slayer]

Originally Posted by finally_retired

And BMW aren't exactly up there with Astons and Lambo's.

No! Not when it comes to losing money and being unsustainable economically.

Don't get me wrong. I love Astons. But what does it say about a company when the car noted for saving it (DB7) is widely regarded as a "Jag in Drag"? I'd say you could even accuse it of losing it's soul.

Lamborghini!?! Don't get me started. It's and Audi. I don't care how they try to dress it up, it's an Audi! There's no continuity of cars or philosophy.

BMW on the other hand have stuck to their guns (Chris Bangle not withstanding). And they have one of the most recognisable symbols that has amazing credibility and customer loyalty.

Regardless of what you say, BMW epitomises automotive success. And if you disagree, they have 1.9 billion reason every year to say you're wrong.

[finally_retired]

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

Well... that Benz 5.0L in the CL500 (which costs much more) just so happens to have less power then the BMW 4.4L in the 645Ci. 302hp v. 325hp. As for the CL55 and CL600, the BMW M6 is due in the next year or two, and will come with the same 500bhp V10 and 7 speed SMG from the M5. So the only CL class car I dont see as competition for the 6 is the CL65, which costs over $170,000.

CL500. Base model in the CL range.
645Ci. Flagship 6 series.

500bhp M6 Flagship
600bhp CL65 Flagship

There are big diferances. You can't deny that. The CL is a much bigger car than the 6 series too. An 8 series would be competition, but the 6 is more of a CLK competitor.

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

The way I see it, the AMG and S brands only exist because of M. M was the first of the German in house tuners that took existing cars and made them sportier.

Mercedes had the 560SE/SEC/SL Before M existed. They don't need AMG to make fast cars, but the brand image hepls sales. And this too is not my point. I don't have a problem with M, just the M3. By making the M3 exclusively a coupe and cabrio, they have cut off thier noses to spite their own face.

Originally Posted by DinanM3_S2

SL65 AMG: $180,000
Used Ferrari 360 Spyder F1: $111,000
Used BMW M5: $60,000?
Theres your luxury+sports all for less then your SL65... But it doesnt make much sense, does it?

Thats pathetic. And totaly irelavant.
The modern cars that I drive:
SL65: £144'995
S600: £97'050
BMW X5: £60'120

Total: £302'165

With that, I could buy a Maybach and have change. Or a Carrara GT... but I don't want either of them. If you throw in the £35'000 for a 230SL Pagoda, and £250'000 for a mint condition 300SL Gullwing, it totals £587'165. So what. I buy cars because I want them, not for the price.

What I'm saying is, that if I were on that sort of budget, that is how I would spend it. I would not buy an M3. Simple as that. I wouldn't buy one because It dosn't suit my needs and you should respect that.


V8slayer. This is not the point either. Mercedes and BMW are very closely matched. If Mercedes were up there with Lambo, Bugatti, Jensen, and DeTomaso in the past, they may be in the same financial position as thoes companies now. Truth is, Mercedes and BMW will always be close rivals. As will Audi. They are world wide volume car manufacturers with multi billion £ turnovers and products in most sectors of the market. That is a fact that you cannot argue with.

[FikseGTS]

all this talk about the "future" BMW's like the M5 and M6.... let's talk about what's available NOW....

I saw two magazine front covers lately with the M5 on the front.... zero performance figures.... why is this? then they say it won't be over here until the end of 2005??

by then the current E55 will have been out for 3+ years....

I think the E55 will still beat it in a straight line.... of couse now we'll hear all the Bimmer fan's cry about how much better the handling on the M5 will be.... I'm sure it will be, but if you're tracking 4000+ pound sedans around courses, you've got issues and the wrong car anyways...

in all reality, the M5 and E55 in a normal person's hand's will handle just fine on the streets, all the way up to the limited speed of 155MPH.... one will just be a few tics behind the other.....

and stop raggin on my C32, Ben... I know it's old...

[finally_retired]

is it a previous generation C32?

[V8slayer]

I didn't realize there was a previous generation C32.

I thought it was a C43 and a C36 before that.

[finally_retired]

Your rite, It was 36. Was getting confused.

FikseGTS... What are you on about your C32 being old then?

[blindside.AMG]

Mercedes C43 with an HPS supercharger owns all but the C55.

[finally_retired]

It also voids the warenty.

[DallasBladeYSL]

I haven't read all, but it sounds like the vast majority of our opinions seem to be more focused towards what you prefer, than what is reality. All three cars have taken the sports car approach in their own special definition. It is obvious that the M3 is the drivers car simply because it communicates to the driver every single curve and bump in the road. The Audi and Merc don't quite so much. But if that's your definition of sports car than you should all be looking at the McClaren F1, and forget about Lamborghini's and Bugatti's. The Merc posts numbers either even with or better than an M3 in certain areas. The S4 hangs in very well especially with it's awd advantage. All three are incredibly capable and in either one you can run around the Nurburgring in equal times. But in the M3 one will get out either with the biggest smile on his face or with a not in his back. In the Merc you'll either be thrilled that you went ballz fast, or you'll be disapointed cause you were getting a massage while doing so. In the S4, well... you get the point. Just for raw numbers comparison... The fastest clocked time of a BMW M3 CSL is 4.8 secs 0-60. The fastest official time of a C32 AMG is 4.6. Just depends on what you want.