M3 vs C32 vs C55 vs S4

[V8slayer]

Originally Posted by finally_retired

This is why I hate the M3. Its desperatly trying to be something that it will never be.

Yes and I'm sure everybody agrees with you there. Including all the trophies won by M3's.

Trying to be something it's not indeed. Do you actually know how quick it is aroung the N'ring?

[finally_retired]

You just totaly missed the point of everything I said in my post.

Thanks...

[kman10587]

The M3 isn't "trying to be" anything; it's just a luxury coupe with an amazing engine, gearbox, and suspension. Nothin' wrong with that in my book.

[DinanM3_S2]

The M3 runs off a similar idea to the Aston DB9 and Ferrari 612. 2 door car that can hold 4 people, combining the luxury you get with every BMW with the speed of the M division. Its not an all out sports car like the Elise, Corvette, Viper, etc. but its alot nicer then any of them. At the same time, its much sportier then the E-Class, 5-Series, A6, etc. IMO, the M3 is the perfect blend, to some people the S4 and the C55 are. Its all a matter of what you want in a car. I get everything I want out of the M3.

[FikseGTS]

hah... BMW makes some great cars.... but they can't compare to MB....

where is BMW's competition for the following:

SLR
SL65
SL55
SL600
CL65
CL600
CL55
S600
S55
SLK55
C55

nada..... no comparisons at all for any of those cars...

they have the M5 to take on the E55, and the M3 to take on the CLK55.... that's it....

Originally Posted by kman10587

They're too busy smoking the big ol' Benzs down at the track.

When you're comparing German touring cars, quarter mile times are the last thing you should be looking at.

[Jimster]

Originally Posted by FikseGTS

hah... BMW makes some great cars.... but they can't compare to MB....

where is BMW's competition for the following:

SLR
SL65
SL55
SL600
CL65
CL600
CL55
S600
S55
SLK55
C55

nada..... no comparisons at all for any of those cars...

they have the M5 to take on the E55, and the M3 to take on the CLK55.... that's it....

Well....... To take on the S600, there's the 760Li, but BMW don't need big brawny motors in every car they make, why? Because all thier cars are sports cars in the first place, I mean, a C180 isn't nearly as much fun as a 318i or 320i, or an E320 has nothing on the 530i's sporting nature.


The only reason Merc puts a big engine into all of thier cars is because the ones that don't read AMG are by no means sporty (Except maybe the new SLK) and Benz feels the need to compensate for that.

[DinanM3_S2]

Just because BMW doesnt make cars in every segment Benz does doesnt make Benz a better company. BMW makes cars that their good at making, and stick to that.

And I did see some flaws to that list you compiled...
S600 and S55 both compete with the 760, and the C55 and M3 are considered by many to be in the same segment, even though the M has 2 doors. The CL class competes with the 645Ci and whats soon to be the M6.

This leaves only the SLK55, the SL class, and the SLR. Theres been numerous reports that BMW is planning on making a M Roadster on the Z4 platform, so that would compete with the SLK55, I've also read an interview with a BMW exec that hinted at a replacement for the Z8, which competed with the last generation SL Class, which leaves BMW only without a supercar... well, I still consider the McLaren F1 to be close enough to a BMW, and thats a 1993 car thats already better then the Carrera GT according to EVO, and a few different mags have called the CGT better then the SLR. So F1 > CGT > SLR

Finally, to call a company better then another because they have more models is foolish. You could use that logic to prove that Chevy and Ford are better then Ferrari and Porsche, because wheres their competition for the Malibu and Focus? BMW doesn't try to make cars for everybody, they make cars for people who want sporty sedans (3-series, 5-series, M5, and 7-series) and coupes (3-series "Ci", M3, and 6-Series) all for the most part under $100,000.

[crayzayjay]

Originally Posted by FikseGTS

hah... BMW makes some great cars.... but they can't compare to MB....

Mercedes-Benz..... hmmm... do you mean the car company which used to have an illustrious reputation for quality and that is now scoring sub-standardly in reliability / satisfaction surveys?

Basically, Jimster and Dinan have said it all.

BMW has or is making a competitor for each of those MB models. And for those that it isn't, so what? MB is only shooting itself in the foot by making so many models that are cannibalising eachothers' sales.

Oh, and McLaren F1 > SLR. I mean seriously...

[FikseGTS]

good points, I think what I was trying to say didn't come across the right way, I didn't mean MB was a better company, I was trying to say that performancewise, BMW isn't making anything to compare...

the 760 can't compare to the S55,S600, none are sports cars... as for making too many models, I'm sure the S430,S500,S55,S600 collectively outsell the 745i, 745iL, 760iL by a VERY large margin....

I'm being stubborn because my C32 lease is up in a few months and I want a M3 sedan....

[mason_RsX]

You also can't directly relate a better company to automotive sales... theres a lot of factors other than quality and sportiness that makes up sales...by your logic GM makes the best vehicles hands down and a Pontiac Sunfire is better then every car you named because it outsells them collectively...

as for the comparison I would personally take an S4 because it mixes performance and practicality the best

[finally_retired]

Ok, ok. Firstly, I will admit that Mercedes isn't anything like it used to be. I've been with the company for 40 years, and have seen many highs and lows. Its not so much a quality issue now, more of a service issue. The dealerships arn't up to scratch.

Older mercs like the ML, A, and pre facelift C and E classes were lacking in quality, but the newer models, particulaly, the SLK and E classes are topping most consumer polls. With the CLS, R, A, S, B, G and ML classes all due in the next 18 months, I'm confident that quality issues will become a thing of the past.

The CL can't be compared to a 645Ci. Theres a price difference of over £20'000 and the CL is not availabe in a cabrio version. The 6 series offers a 3 litre and 4.4 litre, while the CL offers a 5 litre, 5.5 litre V8 supercharged, 5.6 V12, and a 5.6 V12 Twin Turbo. No comparison.

Lastly, I resent he M3 because I can't see a real purpose for it. The seats are too hard, as is the suspension. The manual gearbox is stiff and notchy, with a heavy clutch so I don't really class it as remotly luxurious, and its not as honed and driver focused as an Elise or a Boxter.
I stand by my convictions. As a driver, I want a comfortable swift luxury car thats user friendly, and a Sports car for when I want self indulgant fun. This applies to any budget, as there are cars of all ages and prices that fit thoes requirments. With this philosophy I find I have a better driving experiance regardless of what mood I am in and would never consider buying a car that is trying to be two things at once.

The C55 and S4 are both luxury cars with high power. But are by no means a sports car. This leaves the M3 looking as if it is suffering from somewhat of an identity crisis to me.

[crayzayjay]

Originally Posted by finally_retired

Older mercs like the ML, A, and pre facelift C and E classes were lacking in quality,

Are we talking about the W210 E-class here? Cos if so, all i can say is that that model was one of the last properly engineered MB's. Ours is built like a tank, inside and out. Completely indestructible.

As for your comments regarding the M3... Well, to each his own and all that, but there's a reason the car is widely regarded as the performance benchmark in its segment... It's that good.

[V8slayer]

Originally Posted by finally_retired

Lastly, I resent he M3 because I can't see a real purpose for it. The seats are too hard, as is the suspension. The manual gearbox is stiff and notchy, with a heavy clutch so I don't really class it as remotly luxurious, and its not as honed and driver focused as an Elise or a Boxter.
I stand by my convictions. As a driver, I want a comfortable swift luxury car thats user friendly, and a Sports car for when I want self indulgant fun. This applies to any budget, as there are cars of all ages and prices that fit thoes requirments. With this philosophy I find I have a better driving experiance regardless of what mood I am in and would never consider buying a car that is trying to be two things at once.

The C55 and S4 are both luxury cars with high power. But are by no means a sports car. This leaves the M3 looking as if it is suffering from somewhat of an identity crisis to me.

That's fine from your point of view. But we're not all rich 69 year olds with our careers behind us and enough money to own and enjoy a fleet of cars.

That's the point of the M3. Can't you understand that? I'm 26 and my money is needed for investments and furthering my career. I'd love to have a 760Li to drive to work and a Ferrari 430 for the weekend. Unfortunately, at my point in life, my money can't be thrown around like that. So the M3 provides enough comfort to use everyday. And enough fun for a weekend bash on the track?

And it's crazy to suggest that for the price of an M3 you can get two cars where one would be more comfortable and the other better performance. And you're not even considering parking space, insurance, maintenance and a dozen other things that makes it more difficult to care for two cars as opposed to one when you're not a multimillionaire.

You're free to say the M3 makes no sense to you. Just don't try and tell me I don't have a good car for my needs.

[drunken monkey]

am i the only one who finds it a bit odd to compare a small saloon that sits four comfortably,
to a two seating mid engined out and out sports car?

M3 has an identity crisis?
i would say it is MB who has an identity crisis,
who seem to be competing with itself to see how much horse power they can't use because of tyres that can't cope?

do they want to be a performance brand
or
a luxury brand?
or a performance luxury?
executive preformance luxury?
more than BMW,
MB doesn't know what to do, so it tries to do them all.
whtever you need, four door, two door, convertible, any combination of the above?
there's bound to be a model for you.
hell, they even make vans....

no purpose for the M3?
what's the purpose of the CLS when you have the CL?
extra doors?
then what's the S class for?

[finally_retired]

Option A:
New BMW M3 coupe: £41'150 (basic spec.)

Option B:
2000 BMW M roadster 28'000 miles Imola Red: £14'995
New BMW 325i SE saloon: £25'125
Total: £40'120


Option A:
2002 BMW M3 coupe 30'000 miles Lagunasecca Blue: £25'450

Option B:
2001 Lexus GS300 Sport 24'000 miles silver: £9'995
2000 Lotus Elise 160 SuperSport Edt. 26'000 miles Black: £15'000
Total: £24'995

I can go on and on...


As far as the point of Mercedes model line up, Mercedes is marketing the CLS as a four door coupe. Its no S class, but more of an E class. It has the stlye of a CL or CLK, but the practicality of an E.
As far as performance goes, I would class my SL65 prodominantly as a sports car rahter than a luxury car. It can compete easily with a Ferrari or Aston Martin, and devours 911's. Its got hard suspension, supportive seats, wonderful handeling, mindblowing power delivery, stlye and road presance... Its an AMG! Then I have an S600 as a daily car. It too has power, but thats not what I brought It for. I like the heated and air conditioned seats. The soft nappa leather, electric blinds, addaptive cruse controll, silky smoothe auto box, the TV's are good for my passangers, and everything is relaxed smoothe and quiet.

Its vast array of models appeals to a vast array of people. Which in turn, earns then a vast profit. Quite simple really.

(PS: Sorry Jay, Typo! Meant to say C and S classes. Totally agree with you on the E classes quality.)