Porsche Sucks!

[crayzayjay]

It's tough to debate whether Porsche's reputation is owed more to their road cars or racing experiences, i would say that no matter how good your racing record is, if the road cars are sub-standard, the company will not be known as great.
Obviously this is rarely the case, but with Porsche, it was a case of motorsport helping them enhance an already impressive public opinion of the cars. Cutting edge technology and design mated to flawless engineering is what built the Porsche reputation that still is today. Turbocharged engines made racing porsches go like stink, and the lessons learnt then went on to road car production. Cars like the 917/30 or 935, along with their brutish performance are awe-inspiring, but IMO, not synonymous with "turbo". Those were features of the cars, and no matter how important, they didnt "make" them. Great racing cars are the result of innovative companies, inspired engineers and genius designers. Their place in history is assured with success, and further glamorised by top speed and power, but the true achievement goes much further than that. Innovative racing solutions, such as the 935's body shape, which distorted the racing regulations deviously to its advantage, or indeed cutting edge engineering in the making of these types of cars are what built Porsche's reputation, IMO. Turbos are a result of endless testing and development, their success made possible by to the company's know-how and courage. You say Porsches are nothing without turbos, i say it's much deeper than that but at the same time much simpler. Porsche is nothing without its engineering excellence. If it hadnt been turbo's, you can bet your bottom dollar that porsche would have been up there anyway, competing and beating the best, with some pioneering invention or other. It doesnt matter what the invention is, it only matters that it's Porsche.

cheers,
jay

[Cbass]

I agree with everything you say except for one thing.

From the start Porsche built it's reputation on sports car racing. With what was essentially a modified VW Beetle, Porsche stormed the sports car world. With the publicity of racing, they sold 356's. With the money from the 356's, they made the 911. By the time they were turbocharging the 911, they had already built a fearsome reputation for doing more with less, and the turbocharger definately helped. The 917/30 killed CAN/AM! There was just no competing with that car.

It's amazing how a slight misquote can radically alter the statement made.

I said, "Anyways, Porsche would be nothing without turbochargers"
Meaning that without the turbocharger, Porsche would not be the same company it is today. They could very well of remained a low volume producer of low displacement sports car, and quite possible, gone out of business. They certainly would not have been able to compete with Ferrari's and GT-40s based on naturally aspirated small engines and light cars.

You quoted me as saying "Porsches are nothing without turbos"

This is saying that all Porsches without forced induction are nothing? Hardly. I simply mean to say Porsche has been shaped into the greatest marque in the world with the aid of the turbocharger. If they hadn't applied turbocharging to their design method, they would not be the same company.

IMO, they would be no more superior to Ferrari than Mercedes Benz is.

[crayzayjay]

You're right, turbos helped a lot, but you have to remember that the first truly great road car porsche ever produced, the 2.7RS, existed before any turbos were introduced, and at the time the car was simply unbelievable (it still is to this day). And thats what makes a great company: great cars.
Turbos meant that Porsche could stay in line with the philosophy they started with, i.e. medium-sized engine, flat 6 etc, to compete with the boys from modena, etc.... Turbocharging was just an option, they could have easily ventured down another path to keep up performance wise. That would have changed the character of Porsches forever though.. Therefore, while i agree with what you say about turbocharging & Porsche, i dont think they would have gone out of business if it handt been for them, not by a long shot.. they would have simply adopted another philosophy.....

i dont want to get into which company is more superior, Porsche or Ferrari, it could go on forever

cheers,
jay

[Cbass]

Well, if we take out the asthetics and styling, which happens to be a matter of opinion, it comes down to performance.

Both marques have cars of unbelieveable performance, and we could compare F-40s with 959s, F-50s with 996 GT2s, but Porsches are a lot more reliable, and nicer daily drivers. So IMO, that gives Porsche bragging rights by a hair or two.

So whats with the Abarth crest?

[crayzayjay]

Still a dangerous comparison me thinks .. both made some unbelievable cars, both have great racing history, very hard to split them apart... im a porsche man but have infinite respect for Ferrari's, most of them anyway...

as for Abarth, i just have a great interest in the cars theyve been responsible for over the years... my uncle had an Abarth Fiat which was very fast, and my dream car, the Lancia Delta Integrale Evo was developed by Abarth for the WRC, which then went on to improve the road version, which you can read about in the lancia forum here and here
Abarth used to make some awesome cars, unfortunately now FIAT use them as a marketing tag, sticking Abarth badges all over crappy Puntos and the like... I find that very sad, the equivalent would be BMW sticking the tri-coloured "M" symbol on a 316 Compact and adding M alloys, when they could be using their expertise to make some truly sensational cars... and there you have it... Abarth...

oh yeah, and i think the logo looks great


cheers,
jay

[Cbass]

I'm familiar with the Integrale Evos, but didn't know a thing about Abarth.

I think it's a matter of taste, but taste aside, Porsches make better daily drivers.

Okay, well, I we can't compare a 911 GT2 with a 456 GT, the Ferrari is the better DD.

The 911 is still more reliable though.


BTW, the logo is funky to a T

[crayzayjay]

BTW, the logo is funky to a T

Thanks !!! as soon as i get my Integrale evo im changing the logo on the centre of the alloy (whats that thing called again??????) to an Abarth one... you should look them up on the Net... have made some really nice cars.....

with you on porsche V ferrari


cheers,
jay

[Cbass]

Centre caps. My 924 is missing the right rear cap. How much is an Evo worth anyways?

Hmmm, lets get some ferrari people in here to argue with!

[crayzayjay]

A good evo 1 should be had for about £10k, a good evo 2 for about 12-13k, and limited editions for a little more than that. Supposedly unregistered ones go for £25k or so... the car market isnt doing so great right now so prices are a lot lower than they were last year.... im looking for a limited edition evo 2 which is actually not that hard to find but finding one in good shape and at a reasonable price is tricky....

im up for arguing with some ferrari people... maybe we should go into their forum and start a "Ferrari sucks" thread ... but i insulted the guy who started this thread so i think it would be a little hypocritical of me

maybe a Porsche V Ferrari thread in the car comparison forum??? i dont think anyones started one of those which is actually kinda surprising...

cheers,
jay

[Cbass]

I think we can do both! Let's rumble!

Looked up Abarth, and only found the old 50's and 60's models... Can anyone say Fiat?

Got any links to good clubs or pages?

[crayzayjay]

hehehe...... some guy was trying to tell me chrysler had a better racing history than porsche... needless to say i set the record straight...

Can anyone say Fiat?

huh????

i havent found much abarth stuff on the net, i dont really look around much, but here are 2 sites i just dug up.....
http://ritmoabarthcabrio.free.fr
lot of ritmo stuff, but a nice racing abarth's in the other cars section and a scary 450bhp ritmo!!! history stolen from this excellent site which has good info on all italian car makers:
http://www.carsfromitaly.com/others/abarth.html

cheers,

jay

[Jay!]

Originally posted by crayzayjay
im up for arguing with some ferrari people... maybe we should go into their forum and start a "Ferrari sucks" thread ... but i insulted the guy who started this thread so i think it would be a little hypocritical of me

maybe a Porsche V Ferrari thread in the car comparison forum??? i dont think anyones started one of those which is actually kinda surprising...

Originally posted by Cbass
I think we can do both! Let's rumble!

Ummm... how about 'no' on the "Ferrari Sucks" thread, this dumb thread is bad enough!

Car Comparisons is fair game though. There are a few [specific Porsche model] vs. [specific Ferrari model] threads in there, but if you want to make a "Battle of the Manufacturers" thread go to it...

I'd recommend that you lay out some categories to consider in the opening post, though...

edit: I see you're already there...

[Cbass]

I just want to provoke a response, so I can argue the what is IMO the superiority of the Porsche marque.

After all, thats what MTBN did to start this one.


When I looked up Abarth, all I could really find were old Fiat like things from the 50's and 60's!

[Jay!]

Originally posted by Cbass
I just want to provoke a response, so I can argue the what is IMO the superiority of the Porsche marque.

After all, thats what MTBN did to start this one.

Yes, but MBTN is a dork.

:right:

Go put your opinions here. You may still be the first to respond.

[crayzayjay]

When I looked up Abarth, all I could really find were old Fiat like things from the 50's and 60's!

Well, i suppose thats when they were at their peak in terms of production cars, even though it went on into the 70s and 80s with some other cars. today, abarth is just a badge, a marketing gimmick. Carlo Abarth is rolling in his grave...