GM is A JOKE!

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by tom3

Might want to talk to a couple Caddy owners about this too. Rear main oil seal leaking, looking at 3 - 4000 dollars to remove engine. Engine destroying coolant leak, 7000 dollars for a new engine. Only difference between the low cost GM cars and the high dollar machines might be the cost of the repairs. I only know what I've seen, no expert here.

I like Caddys too, but you are correct. An expensive car is NO guarentee of a reliable car. There are some reliable Caddys and there are some truly steaming piles. Fortunately they all seem to be good these days.

It's not just Caddy, either My BMW and my friends 2 Audis all have been unreliable and viciously expensive to repair.

[Right_LiRrr]

It's posts like these I see everywhere that affirm my opinion that I will NEVER buy an american car.

[pollenjesus]

I am a guy who is partial to Japanese cars. The first car I ever had was a 1986 Toyota Corolla with a manual transmission. The thing is still alive and kicking...the body has rotted out, but I never had any mechanical problems with it. Change the oil, replace the timing belt every 100,000 km, and replace the clutch as needed.

I went looking for a replacement vehical this fall. Japenese cars are great, but expensive. I was looking at buying a used Honda or Toyota. Pricy indeed... For costs sake I got myself a 2003 crown victoria police interceptor. With the ford I got heavy duty everything on a fullsized luxury car. I paid about half the price of some late 98-2000 Hondas and Toyotas and got twice the car.

Domestic cars are pretty good for people who don't have the initial investment to afford an import.

Long live the imports, and I pray that my domestic holds together.

Paul

[MagicRat]

That sounds like some car, Paul. At least nobody will pass you on the highway. They are very reliable, but if its a decomissioned cop car, its got about a half zillion miles of ticked-off officers driving it with an "its not my car" attitude.

Hopefully you got a new one; it will last a long time.

[Century 2000]

I'm so glad to see this topic...saves me the trouble of having to start it . I bought a Century 2000 earlier this year, and suffice it to say it is the first and LAST GM product that I will buy. I can't say that I hate American cars, because I owned an Intrepid that went to 177,301 miles, and I don't really have any experience with Ford. But after this car I'm convinced of several things.
1) GM cannot build, nor engineer cars.
2) Not only this, but GM does not even know how to fix their vehicles, as I've taken my car to the dealer numerous times for the same problems.
3) I get the impression from GM that they will try to fix your car once, and if that doesn't work, then screw you, stay away.

My mom drives an Odyssey, and her transmision went at 80,000 miles...way too soon. But it was replaced, with a brand new one, at no cost to her. The service was excellent. Honda really stands behind their products -- it shows that they know when they've made mistakes (as many Odysseys were recalled for tranny problesms) and stand behind their customers.

Conversely, my car has had tranny issues, like many other GM vehicles with the 4T65E tranny, and despite expensive repairs, the transmission still has problems. GM will not recall this transmission, or help owners out with cost.

I'm 22 years old, at the beginning of my car buying career, and have already written off any GM product. I know there are plenty others like me. GM can't build/fix cars, and they can't satisfy their customers. No wonder they're losing market share, I hope Toyota crushes them .

[GMMerlin]

1) GM cannot build, nor engineer cars

What makes you say this...give examples

but GM does not even know how to fix their vehicles, as I've taken my car to the dealer numerous times for the same problems

Dealers are independantly owner franchises...did you check to see if the dealer has met its GM training requirements.
What were the problems you were having? What were the repairs?

I get the impression from GM that they will try to fix your car once, and if that doesn't work, then screw you, stay away.

Give us an example

Conversely, my car has had tranny issues, like many other GM vehicles with the 4T65E tranny, and despite expensive repairs, the transmission still has problems. GM will not recall this transmission, or help owners out with cost.

What were the problems? Did they offer you the choice of a repair or replacement?
Why should they recall the transmission?
Why should they help you out? You purchased a 3-4 year old car with a questionable service history

No wonder they're losing market share, I hope Toyota crushes them

Hate to tell you but GM owns a majority share in Toyota

[tom3]

Hate to tell you but GM owns a majority share in Toyota

Not quite, but they have had some combined ventures. Consider that At $136.1 billion, Toyota's market value exceeds those of Renault, Volkswagen, DaimlerChrysler, Ford and GM combined.

[Century 2000]

Originally Posted by GMMerlin

1) GM cannot build, nor engineer cars

What makes you say this...give examples

but GM does not even know how to fix their vehicles, as I've taken my car to the dealer numerous times for the same problems

Dealers are independantly owner franchises...did you check to see if the dealer has met its GM training requirements.
What were the problems you were having? What were the repairs?



Give us an example

Conversely, my car has had tranny issues, like many other GM vehicles with the 4T65E tranny, and despite expensive repairs, the transmission still has problems. GM will not recall this transmission, or help owners out with cost.

What were the problems? Did they offer you the choice of a repair or replacement?
Why should they recall the transmission?
Why should they help you out? You purchased a 3-4 year old car with a questionable service history




Hate to tell you but GM owns a majority share in Toyota

Okay I'll give you my story. Yes, I bought this car used with 52,000 miles. Clean car, clean carfax history. Being used, I didn't expect it to be "problem free", however, I didn't bargain for what I got. When I bought the car, the alignment was off -- it's used, so whatever. I took it in to a GM dealership for an alignment. The wheel, however, was still cocked to the left after the alignment -- regardless of whether or not there was road crown. I took it back to the dealer and described the problem and inquired if this was normal for Buicks, as the only other car I've owned was an Intrepid, and the steering wheel was always "straight" so to speak, when I was not turning. Well, some mechanic said that the steering wheel should not be like that and would correct the problem. So he did, but still, the steering wheel is crooked. I decided that this was irritating at worst and would probably do no mechanical damage to the car itself, so I decided to give.

Strike 1 -- GM can't get the steering wheels straight on their cars? Aren't alignments basic services? That's pretty bad.

The power window motor burned out on the driver's side at 59,000 miles. For comparison, the auto window motors didn't go on my Dodge until 135,000 miles. Again, discouraging.

Transmission problems. While accelerating quickly (i.e. merging on an interstate) the vehicle started to shudder. That same day, the car slammed gears when upshifting, I was kind of afraid to drive it. This was at night, and my reliable GM service department was closed. So I took the vehicle in the next day. Dealer ran a diagnostic on the car...bad PC Solenoid valve. Apparently, there is a TSB on the 4T65E transmission for this issue. Cost $615.00 (Really glad I have that warranty!) But the car wasn't right even after this. No, couldn't be...my ultradrive shifted way smoother than this. I thought to myself "Goddammit." The problem was that the car still shifted kind of harshly on up-shifts. I say "kind of" because it wasn't as bad as the night it really slammed gears. The upshifts shudder worse when the car has warmed up. Many owners, if you go to the Oldsmobile/Pontiac/Buick forums have reported the same problems with their 4T65E equipped vehicles (this is why I say GM can't engineer cars, there seem to be many owners who have the same problem).

I planned on bringing it back...but not on a tow truck. I was driving, making a turn, going maybe 10 mph. The car began vibrating and making a grinding noise...coming from the engine area . I pressed the brakes, but the car kept bucking. I STOOD on the brakes, and finally the car came to a halt. Pulling it off to the shoulder was difficult, because turning the wheel was like steering through cement. So the car was stalled. I restarted it, put it in gear, and it died again. I did this several times, to no avail. So I had the piece towed. This was around midnight, so I dropped the keys off at the dealer overnight. Two days later I hear from the dealer. "We can't find anything wrong with your car." Yeah, now I'm irate. I go to the dealer. They said when they started it in the morning it stalled once, but then they restarted it and it didn't do it again. I was livid. I explained that I had just had work done on the transmission and wanted it fixed. The top dog over the sevice department (who was at least humble) explained that the car didn't "throw" any codes, so they could not work on it. I told him how awful I thought this car was. He apologized, but other than that didn't seem to care.

So now I have this car which may or may not make it from point A to B. Oh, but don't worry, there's nothing wrong with it.

That's my story. My grandpa had a LeSabre a while ago that went through four transmissions...I thought things had changed at GM, but I guess not. My dad's 2005 Envoy has had tranny issues right off the showroom floor.

Yes, this car was used, but it was well maintained. No car in this day and age should have these problems (transmission) at this mileage. Reading all of these posts, there must be a lot of cars with this flaw. Has GM stopped using a yestertech four speed auto with problems? No.

Yes, I bought a warranty, good thing. When the warranty is up, this car is gone. I'm just so disappointed. I was told that Buick was a quality car line, but I no longer believe that for a second. It's discouraging to know that everyone around you has a more reliable car than you, as well.

[HandofDoom]

Dude your car is a lemon.Every manufacturer has them.Some people are unlucky and get them.That doesn't make the manufacturer junk.Buicks are a great line of vehicles.You just got a lemon.If your trying to convince me that GM's are junk,it isn't working.Owned them all my life.Ive never gotten a lemon.My 1990 winter beater Cadillac has almost 400,000 miles and is problem free.I bought it used of my dad,whom never had a problem.Your car is also used.Did you check carfax before you bought it?It could have at one time been in an accident.Which would affect your allignment,brakes,tranny,and many other things if not properly repaired.GM's are great cars my friend.By the way,not all mechanics can fix cars.Dealer or not.When it comes to fixing a car it all depends on who you go to.If your car is having the problems that you say it is and your dealer mechanic tells you that he can't find anything wrong with the car,then take the hint...your dealer mechanic may very well be a mental retard.Id try taking it to someone else.Just because your a mechanic at a dealership doesn't mean your mechanically brilliant.

Im shocked about your Dodge.Know several people that own them and do nothing but bitch about what a POS theirs is.A guy that I work with has an '03 Town and Country...on its fourth transmission.Older brother works at a Chrysler dealership.He went out with a customer on a test drive in a '05 Cherokee,got back to the dealership in a flatbed.Tranny went in a Mobile Station parking lot.Neighbor,'01 Intrepid,engine gone at 40,000 miles.Brother says new 300's are in all the time for new AC compressors.They refuse to make a recall on the part.My point here,don't brag about your Dodge.You probably bought that used to no?

And warning,whatever you do,stay away from Ford...

[GMMerlin]

Strike 1 -- GM can't get the steering wheels straight on their cars? Aren't alignments basic services? That's pretty bad

It wasn't GMs fault that the steering wheel wasn't straight.
You took your vehicle in for an alignment. part of any techs diagnosis and conformation of repair is to test drive the vehicle before and after the repair. If the vehicle was test driven after the repair, the tech would have noticed that the wheel was off center and should have corrected the condition before you got your vehicle back.
You should not have given in but demanded that your vehicle be returned to you in a repaired condition or a refund for work that was not properly done.

Transmission problems. While accelerating quickly (i.e. merging on an interstate) the vehicle started to shudder. That same day, the car slammed gears when upshifting, I was kind of afraid to drive it. This was at night, and my reliable GM service department was closed. So I took the vehicle in the next day. Dealer ran a diagnostic on the car...bad PC Solenoid valve. Apparently, there is a TSB on the 4T65E transmission for this issue. Cost $615.00 (Really glad I have that warranty!) But the car wasn't right even after this.

Yes there is a TSB on this concern. Als once a repair is done to the trans, the tech should have reset the trans adapts. Once again the vehicle should have been roadtested to confirm repairs

Many owners, if you go to the Oldsmobile/Pontiac/Buick forums have reported the same problems with their 4T65E equipped vehicles (this is why I say GM can't engineer cars, there seem to be many owners who have the same problem).

Misery loves company! You will find more people will complain about something then will give praise...a ratio of about 14 to 1
As many 4t60 and 4t65 transmissions that have been built over the years, I see a small number complaining.

I planned on bringing it back...but not on a tow truck. I was driving, making a turn, going maybe 10 mph. The car began vibrating and making a grinding noise...coming from the engine area . I pressed the brakes, but the car kept bucking. I STOOD on the brakes, and finally the car came to a halt. Pulling it off to the shoulder was difficult, because turning the wheel was like steering through cement. So the car was stalled. I restarted it, put it in gear, and it died again. I did this several times, to no avail. So I had the piece towed. This was around midnight, so I dropped the keys off at the dealer overnight. Two days later I hear from the dealer. "We can't find anything wrong with your car." Yeah, now I'm irate. I go to the dealer. They said when they started it in the morning it stalled once, but then they restarted it and it didn't do it again. I was livid. I explained that I had just had work done on the transmission and wanted it fixed. The top dog over the sevice department (who was at least humble) explained that the car didn't "throw" any codes, so they could not work on it. I told him how awful I thought this car was. He apologized, but other than that didn't seem to care.

A vehicle doesn't have to set a code to have something wrong with it. Sometimes it takes a little listening to the customer, training and experiance to know where to look. From what you described I would say that the TCC stuck and caused the stall problem (kind of like coming to a stop in a manual trans car and not egaging the clutch)
This could be caused by a sticking solenoid or dirt in the valve body.
Once again this is a problem on the dealer level.

Yes, this car was used, but it was well maintained. No car in this day and age should have these problems (transmission) at this mileage. Reading all of these posts, there must be a lot of cars with this flaw. Has GM stopped using a yestertech four speed auto with problems? No.

Do you have the maintence records to prove that?
A car is a piece of machinery made by human hands..there is the possibility that it will break at some time (sooner or later)
The 4t60 and 4t65 transmissions have been around since the 80s (they were called the TH125C)

You just got a lemon

No what he got was a used car with a questionable past. Carfax only shows major concerns with a vehicle (and they miss some of those)

[Century 2000]

I guess my point is this:
Buying a used car is a crap shoot, I agree My Dodge had 108,000 miles when I got it, so I thought that the Buick, with 53,000 miles, would be sturdy (2000 Century, recommended by CR, plus the Rental Regal was highly rated recently). Now look at this scenario:
I owned a car from manufacturer A. This car did not have problems until 135,000 miles when the power window motors went out. It had more problems down the road in the 140,000s-170,000s, however when I paid for repairs that was it, I had no more problems with those parts or the car.

I own a car from manufacturer B. This car had severe problems at 59,000 miles. Despite repairs, these same parts seem to still have problems.

Now, I know GMMerlin and Handofdoom -- you two are obviously GM fans. That aside, on the face of my scenario, wouldn't it be logical to say, don't buy another car from manufacturer B, when clearly I've had better luck from another manufacturer?

That said luck plays an interseting role in brand loyalty. GMMerlin and handofdoom obviously have fantastic GM products. My family, not so. Grandpa going through four transmissions on 1980s LeSabre, my Century, Dad's Envoy has tranny issues off the showroom floor, dad's Phoenix had rusted through (literally, you could see the road through the floorboard ) after only 8 years, Grandma's Chevette...well, I don't have the time, same goes for my mom's Vega and other grandma's Citation.

My family has good luck with Chrysler products. Dad's Durango is a beast, and great off-road, too.

I also have a question for GMMerlin and Handofdoom: Would either of you take any GM product over any other car? Are you blindly loyal to GM? Just curious, it's nothing personal...I just don't know of many people who only buy from one manufacturer. I like Chrysler products, and while there's a good chance I'll buy another one, they are not the only manufacturer I will buy from.

[GMMerlin]

I also have a question for GMMerlin and Handofdoom: Would either of you take any GM product over any other car? Are you blindly loyal to GM? Just curious, it's nothing personal...I just don't know of many people who only buy from one manufacturer. I like Chrysler products, and while there's a good chance I'll buy another one, they are not the only manufacturer I will buy from.

I have worked for a GM dealer for 22 years...And I will still purchase their products..that says alot right there about the quality.
If I thought they were junk don't you think I would be driving something else?
Some of "car problems" are mental...let me explain
My Dad is a hard core Ford man..that is all he will buy. Before he retired, his company gave him cars to drive..all Chevrolets..he always complained that they had nothing but problems..mean while his Ford was in the shop so much even the techs knew me by name (I was 8,9,10 years old)..but that was a great car in his eyes.
Does GM have some problems...I would be an idiot if I said no...but a majority of the problems are at the dealer level.
Dealers are losing experianced techs faster than they can replace them. it takes a tremendous amout of time and money to train a new tech. To save money, dealers are letting techs learn the job while they work (trial and error)..this means there is a good chance that your vehicle will not be repaired to your satisfaction.
Because some dealers don't meet training requirements, they are not allowed to extend things like courtesy warranty extensions to customers who have concerns shortly after the warranty period expires.
This boils down to a senerio where the customer is not satisfied with the service and most likely will not come back....
Where I work we carry a 200% training score and run around a 85-90% customer satisfaction score (we too have some inexperianced people working with us)..the dealer across town runs a 40% training and a 50% customer satisfaction score......where would you take your vehicle?

[Century 2000]

Hey GMMerlin, thanks for the inside scoop on why dealers have service problems. But question -- do you know if there is any particular reason why so many of the experienced techs are leaving? Retirement, better job offers? When you say GM is cutting costs by having the techs train by trial and error on the job, I believe it. Of course, if GM is doing this, then I bet other car manufacturers are as well. Hell, I don't even work in the automotive industry (any longer) and I can see this sort of thing where new people get hired, and are told, "this is your job, do it." It's ashame...causes problems for customers and other employees.

[GMMerlin]

Originally Posted by Century 2000

Hey GMMerlin, thanks for the inside scoop on why dealers have service problems. But question -- do you know if there is any particular reason why so many of the experienced techs are leaving? Retirement, better job offers? When you say GM is cutting costs by having the techs train by trial and error on the job, I believe it. Of course, if GM is doing this, then I bet other car manufacturers are as well. Hell, I don't even work in the automotive industry (any longer) and I can see this sort of thing where new people get hired, and are told, "this is your job, do it." It's ashame...causes problems for customers and other employees.

Why are we leaving? lack of respect, cuts in warranty times, the high cost of tools, injuries, cuts in maintence services..just getting fed up with the BS to name a few.
GM is not the one cutting costs with training..the dealers are charged a flat fee every month to cover training..the dealer is not pushing the training because (in their eyes) it takes away from shop productivity..the loss in training expense is made up for by profit.
techs are not going for training because the guys who are trained get the shit work while they get the gravy.
What a lot of people don't understand is the cost involved in being a tech..usual layout for tools runs 20-70k (tools are not supplied by the dealer)
GM cuts warranty times to the bone and pays little to nothing for diagnosis.
Lack of respect from the public...you see it right here on AF
Lack of respect from the dealer....techs are a dime a dozen..we are uneducated monkeys
Injuries..22 years of this has left me with a sore back, 2 bad knees, deformed hands and who knows what I have breathed in for the last 22 years.
I could rant on for hours.

[keVinScIon]

GM definatly has some issiues with quality and reliability of their cars. But they do make great SUVs (Escalade, Tahoe, Denali) My mom use to drive a 2003 Trailblazer and had no problems with it at all. Cadilacs are great cars too. Its just their low end cheap cars that you should stay away from. just my