LA Times reporter wants your opinion - Page 2

arthur12187 · 11-13-2003, 03:58 PM

it looks kinda funny and doesnt give it that muscle car feeling!

SuPeRcAr_MaN · 11-14-2003, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthur12187

it looks kinda funny and doesnt give it that muscle car feeling!

It may not be the nicest car out there but I am sure it gives that 'muscle car feeling' when you are behind the wheel!

hiphophomer · 11-15-2003, 10:06 AM

im scared guys i think they might use that f**king homosexual model on gto.com!NOOOOOOOO, are you guys sure that it will be that kick ass orange one or that pussy one on gto.com?help ccuz i was about to finally like pontiac, but if they use the gto.com one i wont like them anymore...the only ok part is the corvette engine and kind of on the interior but thats all

SuPeRcAr_MaN · 11-15-2003, 12:24 PM

What are you talking about? Are you referring to the 1999 GTO concept when you say 'the orange one.' That was a foam prototype with no interior and was meant just to attract some attention. The 2004 GTO, which I guess is the one you are calling a 'pussy' car, is a Holden Monaro slightly restyled to make it the new Pontiac GTO. Yes, that is the one that is seen on pontiac.com/gto.

el_oscuro · 11-16-2003, 10:50 AM

First off...lets remember that this new GTO is introduced right after the cancellation of the Camaro and Firebird. Also remember that young adult American males are infatuated with muscle cars. However, this car is not a muscle car.
The auto industry in the USA is finally beginning to feel a recent trend. For years, American buyers have believed that economy, safety, and ease of use could only come from over-produced front-wheel-drive cars that offer no true "muscle." Don't get me wrong, I have a '93 Cavalier RS 3.1, and it is fun to drive, reasonably quick, and feels muscular for a FWD coupe. It is 99% reliable, but certainly lacking any true quality.
The retired Camaro/Firebird were also lacking in any true quality. This is why the Monaro is being introduced here. Sure, the price is a bit steep compared to its predecessors, and the performance is exactly the same, but the LS1 is perhaps the best engine GM has produced, EVER! Also, if the body and chassis of the new GTO are as stiff and rigid as they say, the car should be much safer and retain its "quality" much longer than the old rear-drivers (which we all know were fast but really pieces of junk.) This new car also reportedly gets better gas mileage than my 4cyl S10.
Finally, a car to break the mass illusion of FWD superiority. This new GTO reflects the trend of global automakers trying to get back to simpler RWD cars that last and perform. But remember, the GTO is only planned to be here for 3 years. I hope I see a Corvette based performer after that time (like the XLR? CTS-V?) Americans love performance, but the "muscle car" is dead.

guybud5 · 11-16-2003, 05:38 PM

I'd like to see this car offered with back doors. In the modern market, 2 door cars really just don't sell that well. Remember when they used to make lots of sports cars and sporty coupes? The Camaro and Firebird are gone, the Ford Probe is gone, the two door versions of the Grand Prix and Grand Am can't be had in 2 door form. Even the not-so-sporty 2 doors are disappearing. The 2 door Cherokee is gone, as well as the 2 door Bronco (Expedition), as well as Japanese cars such as the Camry and Corolla. As of late, only Honda and Toyota seem to have found a market for nice midmarket 2 door cars.

If this car is starting life as a price-bloated semi-luxury sports car, it will have nowhere to go. It is beginning life at the end of the road traveled by the Z car, the 300GT, the Thunderbird, among others. Its being offered only as a 30,000 playtoy for the middleaged in their midlife crises... No matter how great its performance, it won't be able to compete in the modern market.

Look at the Firebird and Camaro. They'd become very much niche cars. They didn't offer versatility, they had fallen behind stylistically, they were cramped, loud, and uncomfortable. As much as I'd love to have seen them stick around a while longer, I'd have never owned one. The high sticker, the high gas consumption, the cramped interior, the wild back end in low traction conditions, and general poor reliability record would have outweighed the pure machismo of cruising in a 'Maro or 'Bird. The F-body is a legend, but one whose age had come to show a bit to clearly... after all, under all the sporty body work, it was basically a mid 70's car. Definately NOT worth the inflated costs.

As much as I admire this car as quite an improvement over the F-Body, I can't see it as a future success.

SuPeRcAr_MaN · 11-16-2003, 08:53 PM

Well, you're somewhat right. There is a market for 2 door cars, but not a large one, especially for $32,000 bland Pontiacs. That is why this is just a 3-year thing for GM. They will sell well for these 3 years, even as just a collector's item. You make an interesting but irrelevant point about 2-door SUVs. Of course they were failures and are now obsilete. What the hell do you do with a 2-door 'sport utility vehicle.' About the F-bodies, there were many reasons this failed that had nothing to do with the 2-door sports car idea they were built on. I am sure there are many on people on this forum that can give you all the reasons, unfortunately I am not one of them. But bringing me back to my point, there will be a market for the new GTO over the aparent 3 year span. It has a roomy back seat for a 2 door, better interior than most cars GM is putting out there, and 350 horses. Oh yea, not to mention the famous 3 letters: GTO.

hiphophomer · 11-16-2003, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by el_oscuro

First off...lets remember that this new GTO is introduced right after the cancellation of the Camaro and Firebird. Also remember that young adult American males are infatuated with muscle cars. However, this car is not a muscle car.
The auto industry in the USA is finally beginning to feel a recent trend. For years, American buyers have believed that economy, safety, and ease of use could only come from over-produced front-wheel-drive cars that offer no true "muscle." Don't get me wrong, I have a '93 Cavalier RS 3.1, and it is fun to drive, reasonably quick, and feels muscular for a FWD coupe. It is 99% reliable, but certainly lacking any true quality.
The retired Camaro/Firebird were also lacking in any true quality. This is why the Monaro is being introduced here. Sure, the price is a bit steep compared to its predecessors, and the performance is exactly the same, but the LS1 is perhaps the best engine GM has produced, EVER! Also, if the body and chassis of the new GTO are as stiff and rigid as they say, the car should be much safer and retain its "quality" much longer than the old rear-drivers (which we all know were fast but really pieces of junk.) This new car also reportedly gets better gas mileage than my 4cyl S10.
Finally, a car to break the mass illusion of FWD superiority. This new GTO reflects the trend of global automakers trying to get back to simpler RWD cars that last and perform. But remember, the GTO is only planned to be here for 3 years. I hope I see a Corvette based performer after that time (like the XLR? CTS-V?) Americans love performance, but the "muscle car" is dead.

and no the ls1 isnt gm's greatest engine, i suppose the ls6 is...and "the muscle car is dead"-your wrong what about corvette and viper, or am i just answering the part that you meant the gto mucle car is dead?

Michael_S · 11-17-2003, 10:46 AM

[Disclaimer: I would love to buy this GTO, but I won't be able to afford a new car for years.]

I think the GTO offers practicality and performance with the drawback of bland styling. I would still consider it well worth a buy, if I could afford it.

However, I would not call it a muscle car. It sounds good like a muscle car, and it moves quickly like a muscle car, true. On the other hand, muscle cars were relatively cheap. Hopefully the premium the GTO commands will be offset by improved handling, reliability, and safety.

I think DeViL is on to something with regards to offering a base model. Ford continues to produce Mustang V6s because many people continue to buy them. I am pretty sure the Holden Monaro - the basis for the GTO - is available with a V6 and optional supercharger. That could put a low end GTO within the buying power of many people who just can't afford the $31,000 base cost of the V8 version.

SuPeRcAr_MaN · 11-17-2003, 06:56 PM

V6 GTO is a contradicting statement. For Pontiac to make a 6-cylindar GTO would be heresy. They could strip down the interior a bit and that would drop the price, but I see nothing else happening. To pay $32,000 for a car, like you said, that looks so bland is rediculous to me. Someone on another forum said just look at it as a blank canvas for the aftermarket. But aftermarket parts means even more money. I guess the price is pretty good considering... I don't know what other cars offer that performance with semi-luxurious interior and good build quality for under $35,000. But that is expensive and thus one reason it is a 3-year project with limited quantities. If GM was going or the long haul, they would have to eventually add a V6 to keep the sales up, not to mention some major changes in styling. To me it is still sad that they based the car that is bringing back Pontiac's greatest performance legend on a different manufacturer's automobile. Shouldn't this be a task for a major design team. Hell, you're bringing back one of the greatest muscle cars of all time, and you are using another car to do so, just because it's never been sold in the States. I wanted to see Holdens in the US but not under these sercumstances. And because Pontiac had limited time to change the Monaro into the GTO, would it have been so bad to hold off production another year so you can make the car look better. Or god forbid hold it back a few years and design a new car yourself. I can rant and rave about this for days like I did when the car came out. But I received so much criticizm for these comments that I just started to be a 'yes' man of sorts and agreed with everything Pontiac was doing to this GTO and agreed with every positive comment made. But there is no escaping that Pontiac ruined a performance legend, perhaps scarring the name forever. Bring back the GTO, and make it a real MUSCLE CAR!

texan · 11-18-2003, 05:29 AM

This new GTO is the first sensible, competitive and well executed sports sedan to come along from GM in many years. Thankfully, today's car market is really beginning to reflect the mass exodus of buyers into the SUV field by demanding cars with personality, true sporting intentions and a real level of both mechanical and aesthetic complexity. While the GTO is certainly not a polarizing car to look at (which is exactly what I believe GM was looking for... a non-confrontational package from the outside), it's presence in the market is extremely important for them.

First off, it's the only car they build outside of the Corvette with serious power and a sophisticated drivetrain/suspension. It also represents an important shift in production methods... 80,000 units a year were apparently not enough to make the Camaro/Firebird profitable for the General, but somehow they've managed to balance the books on importing 18,000 examples of the GTO. Thank God, for if economics at GM require them to sell over 100,000 units a year to see a profit we'll never see niche market and true sports cars from them again. And that is just how Nissan found itself facing oblivion in America a few short years ago, folks. It turns out that car people really do influence the larger buying public, and any manufacturer who ignores our sect in this country suffers dearly over the long haul.

So point to point: heritage. What is it with everyone claiming this car slaughters the GTO heritage? The originals looked damn near identical to their sedated passenger car cousins, the whole idea was a wolf in sheep's clothing and it played out expertly. The brains behind a muscle car were (and still are) found in pulling a weak sedan off the line and stuffing a serious motor into it, is this new GTO so different? Quite right, the shape sure could have a 200hp V6 in the nose and be just another largish coupe plodding around town with a 4 speed auto. But no, this one has an especially nice stance to it and a 350hp V8 under the hood. And it's all connected to a bulletproof 6 speed manual that'll give most drivers all the involvement they ever wanted while tossing around a 3700 lb vehicle through the corners, leaving black stripes at each apex as they dig deep into the LS1 and it's prodigious power. And this car really handles to boot, something no "muscle" car has ever before laid serious claim to.

Engineering: This car is very well thought out. It's got the right suspension, the right motor and the right chassis to do the job. The proportions are all there; a wind cheating shape, a comfortable and ergonomic cockpit, just about exactly the amount of power the tires will put up with and plenty of headroom under the hood for the corporate power mongers to play with... should any manufacturer decide to enter the fray.

Pricing: Find me another sporting 2+2 with a powerful V8 and well designed running gear for $33,000. Until then, the G35, 5 series and C class owners will have to make do with their slick sheetmetal and/or European badging as antidotes to buyer's remorse.

Styling: Give them a break. This is one of GM's largest gambles in recent memory, at least let them package the thing in sheetmetal that won't set off 80% of the population into convulsion. Given that this is a Pontiac, I'm still reeling from the fact the interior doesn't strongly remind me of a Fisher Price toy... no huge gray buttons or child safety rounded plastic corners seem to jump out at me, woohoo! Kudos to GM for making this an adult playground, and one where we can effortlessly slide into the fast lane and run near a buck down byways without bending the ear of every radar gun in the county. It's not bland, it's just simple. And simple is good, lest we forget what fancy is in Pontiac's language: a golden fire chicken emblazoned on the cowl induction hood of an all black T-topped monstrosity. Vanilla is the most popular flavor for a reason, ya know.

Final point: if GM can find reasons to build and sell cars like this in America, they aren't quite dead yet. Both Ford and GM still seem to be slow to realize the sort of technology buyers want in their cars these days (indeed, many of their best sellers survive through fleet service in rental garages across the country), but this car may represent a turning point for GM. They've designed a fantastic pickup to carry them into the next 5 years, they've finally got a sports car program everyone can envy... and now they're realizing how to build and market proper midsize performance cars. All it'll take is a little more investment and perhaps we'll again hear the blat of a Camaro exhaust, redesigned with a modern chassis and running gear this time, at a stoplight near you. Praise the GTO, for it may mark the return of American muscle to the streets of the modern world.

Blackbird3 · 11-18-2003, 07:52 AM

^^Well said.

To the guy who said the GTO comes from another manufacturer: the General owns Holden, it is just another division like Pontiac.

If they were to consider a base model, I would call it the Pontiac Lemans, put in the 3.8L V6 (non supercharged), single exhaust (stock Monaro), 16" X 8" wheels, cloth interior, but keep the drivetrain (6 speed & independant) to allow for power modifications.

Michael_S · 11-18-2003, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbird3

^^Well said.

To the guy who said the GTO comes from another manufacturer: the General owns Holden, it is just another division like Pontiac.

If they were to consider a base model, I would call it the Pontiac Lemans, put in the 3.8L V6 (non supercharged), single exhaust (stock Monaro), 16" X 8" wheels, cloth interior, but keep the drivetrain (6 speed & independant) to allow for power modifications.

I was just going to say that. Make a base GTO with a V6 or supercharged V6, and name it the Pontiac LeMans. If the price was in the low-mid $20,000s, I bet it would sell really well.

SuPeRcAr_MaN · 11-18-2003, 04:37 PM

About the LeMans idea, I am sure GM would be a huge fan of that if this wasn't just a 3-year project. They would know not to make a V6 GTO to lower the price, so go back to the past again and call it a LeMans. I am a fan of the idea but am aware that the car won't be around long enough. It wouldn't be worth it to make it for one or two years...

About the new GTO... I know GM owns Holden, but that doesn't change the fact that the GTO is someone else's design. I understand what texan is saying about the original GTOs looking like the other Pontiac models. But I am not going to say the new GTO is okay because it resembles the Grand Am, Grand Prix, and Bonneville. I also don't want a retro look like the 2005 Mustang, unless someone could come up with a nice new design looking like a '66 GTO. I don't see that happenning. I just wanted the new GTO to have a little attitude and muscle and not be a sleeper. I want you to know my car has some power. And don't get me wrong, I like the new GTO and I would rather them make this one than not make one at all. I will just go back to my point and say this is not a Pontiac GTO, it is a Holden Monaro. I get a lot of criticizm then from the guys who are buying this car because they love everything about it, not because it is the new GTO. I just think us GTO enthusiasts have a reason to be a little upset with the way this turned out. Most of my posts are coming from the view of an owner of a 1966 GTO, not a guy who is a fan of GM today. I am both, and I am just trying to state my oppinion on why the new GTO doesn't live up to it's heritage. Not as much as the Mustang, not as much as the 350Z, not as much as the Corvette...

DeViL · 11-19-2003, 12:08 PM

It's ideas like making GTO's 4 doors that only GM would read from this site and actually think it's a good idea. That's there level of thinking.

When you buy a 2-door cars like the V8 F-bodies and Mustangs, you know when you buy it that it doesn't have as much practical use as a Taurus or Grand Prix. Comfort and luxary are not the point in buying the car, it never has been since day one in '64. Did Chevelles have a purpose other than going really fast and sucking up gas? No, F-bodies were no different in the 60's, and the GTO is the same way. These muscle cars are bought as something you leave in your garage all week, drive your Honda Civic to work, then on the weekends take the muscle car out and cruise, knowing you have a car faster then almost everything else on the road. Naturally not every situation works that way, thats just ideally.

However V6 Mustangs seem to have found a good spot for the market, I'd say mostly due to the very low cost and trunk space. The V8's have the same space but like I said they are not something for daily use like the V6 is. It's something sporty people can drive back and forth to work and not have a bland looking car like everyone else has, it's sporty, and it has pretty good gas mileage. The GTO could actually share this category because the shape is very similar, and it also has a good size trunk. But like what is said if they are only going to make this for 3 years a V6 Le Mans version is out of the question.

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