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Old 02-26-2003, 03:32 AM   #31
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"Carbon fiber underbody panels /w built-in diffusing sections" I know the thing in the back, underneath is a diffuser, but what would other diffuseing sections be? Where would I put them?

Otehr than that I recoded everything

Keep it comming!! Bring it on!!!

I think I have enough info on brakes, and I'm trying to contact Brembo. If I establish a dialogue with them, then I probably wont need much additional help. Lemme see if this works out or not.

Right now the engine is probably the focus concern sicne a lot depends on that. I have a sizable list, and I need to start reducing it. Remember 100 to 750 units will be produced, and rich people won't care about cost as much as the performance. We need to be realistic, but we have some room for customization. Any customization needs to be possible without technological advances or extensive testing. We amy have a decet amount of $$$ to play with, but not nessecarly time or research

So, time to narrow the engine list down. Eliminate not as good ideas, and start going mroe indepth with the best ideas.

http://phantom.ssip.net/Files/Chassi...ne%20Stats.htm

(Updating it in like 3 minutes)


I would also like to know how a front end radior system works in a mid-engined car.
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Old 02-26-2003, 03:45 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by ales
Engine: what was said about the injection is that direct fuel injection is not really needed. But "normal" fuel injection is still a must - don't want to be having carbs in there, do you?

In my opinion you should be looking at 1500 - 2000 hp out of the box. That would make the car the ultimate supercar. I know this sounds like much, but there's no point in having any less. 2000 sounds good . And as you have TC and ESP, it should be reasonably easy to control.

And a couple of things about these aids. Make it so that it would be possible to disengage all of them at will (for a bit of fun), and also make TC adjustable by the driver from no wheelspin to slight to completely off.
Could I pack 1500-2000 hp efficently adn have good torque etc? The car ahs plenty of room for a sizeable engine, and plenty of space/air for coolign and combustion. The main issue would be weight.
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Old 02-26-2003, 09:12 AM   #33
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If you don't mind me asking, where does the initial funding come from?
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Old 02-26-2003, 09:16 AM   #34
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I'm really not worried about that yet since my first goal is to have a car company produce it themselves, and send back a percentage of the sale price on every car produced (100 to 750 production units)

If no one bites for too long, I'll look for sponsors. I shouldnt have any problem gettign any if I've laready designed an entirne chasis (engine, suspension, ect...) and have the coolest lookign car in the world.
(Wait till version 5 is complete...it'll be even cooler.)
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Old 02-26-2003, 09:17 AM   #35
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I received a suggestion of “monocoque carbonfibre/titainium composite” Is this a titanium & carbon fiber combination? Would a “aluminum honeycomb-reinforced carbon fiber laminate moncoque” work better (weight and strength).
well its been covered

definatly flat 12 to keep CoG down

OK: tibanachi Ratio : (SP?) take that and see if your design incorporates it buy chance if not see if you can incorp it

Y have cams this thing is a monster anyway hell lets go for negative presure nitrogen gas for valve actuation instead of those old friction cams


Who said u can have additional down force with no wxtra drag???

sorry thats a world of fantasy (wow if only that were possible)

if you want me to xplain it no worries but its a very complicated subject

and i will argue my points till the end

but even ground effect too, increases drag

two main factors are surface area which the air moves over and turulance itself

argh

double wish bone is the go
(thats y i choose my old corona cuase its got DW in the front all round be nicer though)
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Old 02-26-2003, 09:27 AM   #36
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I've studied physics before, no need to explain. Ground effects though are the most efficent method of down force on a car.

What is CoG?
Why a flat 12? I recieved a suggestion against it earlier.

Quote:
Flat and horizontally opposed mean the same thing. A flat 12 would pretty much have no benefit except for lower center of gravity. Intake/exhaust piping and general space concerns would probably null that idea.
Do you have a link for tis below....

Quote:
Y have cams this thing is a monster anyway hell lets go for negative presure nitrogen gas for valve actuation instead of those old friction cams

I'll try to look up this....

Quote:
OK: tibanachi Ratio : (SP?) take that and see if your design incorporates it buy chance if not see if you can incorp it
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Old 02-26-2003, 09:29 AM   #37
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Closest thign I could find was...

"Fibonacci Ratio"

Look up the spelling.
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Old 02-26-2003, 09:41 AM   #38
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COG = centre of gravity.

I'm opposed to flat 12 (not too much, though) - V12 quattroturto (or better yet the wild turbocharger/supercharger setup offered earlier - love that! )

You also mentioned fron radiators - bad idea (ask Countach owners) - the cabin will be getting very hot from the pipes. So Testarossa-style side intakes are preferable (imo) and the F40-style intercoolers.

Brakes: if you have no luck with Brembo, try also AP Racing They are almost as respected as Brembo.


Zammo: How exactly does ground effect produce as much drag as an inverted wing in the direct airflow? Or any drag for that matter?
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Old 02-26-2003, 09:44 AM   #39
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that might be right

its a ratio of something to something

found in nature roman architechture astrology leonardo davinci's work

there ssomething in that designers know it



CoG = Center of Gravity which will be kept as low as possible hence the flat 12


no link its F1 technology so good luck finding info (may have to design your own)
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Old 02-26-2003, 09:51 AM   #40
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Quote:
Zammo: How exactly does ground effect produce as much drag as an inverted wing in the direct airflow? Or any drag for that matter?

i never said as much just not non

like Phantom said its the most efficient form

even for air travel

but you still disturb the particle flow over the suface area by increasing

the ground effect hence addinding to the drag coefficient (but a small % of inverted wings)


(waiting for gravitational field manipulators)
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Old 02-26-2003, 10:13 AM   #41
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Hey! I was the one who mentioned ground effect

I still fail to see how a car with the underside designed to produce downforce will have more drag than an absolutely identical car with a flat bottom or the underside that we find in most passenger cars now. (not trying to argue with you, trying to understand)
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Old 02-26-2003, 10:50 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by ales
Hey! I was the one who mentioned ground effect

I still fail to see how a car with the underside designed to produce downforce will have more drag than an absolutely identical car with a flat bottom or the underside that we find in most passenger cars now. (not trying to argue with you, trying to understand)
It would produce less, a car with anunderbody like the enzo has no exposed suspension or drivetrain pieces to disturb airflow, I believe he's saying an underbody designed witht he bernoulli principle in mind would have more drag then one with just a flat covered panel underneath. The only thing I can see doing this, is the front splitter, the rest is just simple air velocity and pressure, there is no wing forcing the air around it, though a rear diffuser if used would create drag.

As to a flat 12, nobody makes those anymore to my knowledge, and you would definitly need all 80 of those inches to make use of it.
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Old 02-26-2003, 11:01 AM   #43
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Should have put my question more clearly:

Same car, one has a designed to incorporate the Bernoulli effect bottom, the other - a flat bottom. Why would the first car produce more drag? I think if anything, the air will be going faster under the car on the first car.

That's why I called the downforce produced by ground effect "free", as it has no downside as far as additional drag is concerned. At least to my knowledge and understanging.
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Old 02-26-2003, 11:36 AM   #44
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You have an upwards slope ing surface with low pressure underneath it. That will create drag. The fact that the underside of hte car si smooth though reduces the drag relative to most standard vehicles. It's physics
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Old 02-26-2003, 12:11 PM   #45
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Besides my other unanswered questions (where's the engine coming from, what changes are being made to meet NHTSA regulations, etc), I have a problem with your funding problem.

What company is going to build this car for you? At the minimum $500,000 list price you mentioned, I have trouble believing you'll hit your targets of 100-750 units. If these are annual projections, do you really think there are 100 potential buyers for a half-a-million dollar car out there each year? Bugatti stopped production after 149 units (over three years) and many millions of dollars invested. McLaren stopped production at just shy of 100 units, again spread over years. Ferrari and Lamborghini have well established histories (not that Bugatti didn't) and their pricier products (not counting the "bargain" 360) sell in the range of a few hundred a year at prices well below $500k.

I really think you're underestimating the cost of producing this vehicle and you're overestimating both the potential market and the desire of "a car company" to produce your design "and send back a percentage of the sale price." Like it's that easy. Vector wanted to get a major company to produce their vehicles...didn't happen even when the exotic car market was hot, which it isn't now.

Bob Lutz, former vice chairman of Chrysler (father of the Viper) and current vice chairman of General Motors, wanted to resurrect the Cunningham brand. He had a design. He had the backing of the son of Briggs Cunningham. He even had the backing of General Motors (they actually invested in the start-up). Lutz claimed it would take hundreds of millions of dollars to get Cunningham off the ground...and that didn't include the cost of developing the engine which GM would shoulder. Cunningham closed its doors late last year.

Good luck to you. Pipe dreams are wonderful. If you want more honest and well-researched information on starting a car company, let me know. If you want to continue building a dream car, again, good luck to you...but don't bet that it'll make production.
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