Car shut off and won't start

moliva1568 · 07-19-2009, 05:37 PM

I was driving my 74 Catalina down the street and went to make a turn went the whole car shut off. I pulled over and was able to get it to start again after trying a few times. I got home (1 block) and backed into the driveway. I left the car running park while i went to make sure nothing was in the way and it shut off. now it won't start again. i turn the key and get the eh eh eh eh but it won't turn on. it has a full tank of gas so that's not it. any ideas? earlier i sprayed some carb/choke cleaner on it. i don't think it has anything to do with it but i can't be sure. the last time i ran into a no start problem was when the car shut off in a car wash. i though it had to do with water in the tank and then 9 hours later it turned back on. it's doing that same type of no start sound/action now. thank you.

the car has 49,000 miles on it and to my knowledge, has never had it's timing belt changed. that was to come in a few weeks but might this be it? had it been that, would it have started after it first shut off? when accelerating sometimes, the car hesitates and that's why i was sprayed the carb with the cleaner. i hope all this info may help generate suggestions.

shorod · 07-19-2009, 07:09 PM

I'm 99% sure your 74 Pontiac Catalina with the stock engine will have a timing chain rather than a belt. With only 49k miles, I doubt it's stretched. Plus, since it sounds like it idles okay when you can get it to start, it doesn't sound like a stretched timing chain.

I would suggest you start by determining if the car doesn't have fuel or doesn't have spark. If you have a spark tester, that should be easy to test. Or, you could try spraying some of the carburetor cleaner into the car while someone cranks the engine and see if the car acts like it wants to start. Of course don't look down carb while doing this, it takes eyebrows awhile to grow back.

If you don't have spark, you might have an issue with the points being worn and/or out of adjustment. If the engine stumbles when spraying cleaner down the carb, then there is probably a fuel issue (pump, lines, or carb).

-Rod

moliva1568 · 07-19-2009, 07:24 PM

so, if i spray carb cleaner on the carb and the engine starts to stutter as if it's about to shut off, then there's a problem with the fuel somewhere? (it was doing this earlier when i sprayed it) forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question but i'm far from mechanically inclined. i sprayed some starter fluid and i still got nothing. in my research, something said that if you spray the starter fluid and it starts but shuts off in a few seconds then it's a fuel issue. if it does nothing with the starter fluid, then it's a spark or compression issue. does this make sense? if so, where do i go from here if the likelihood of the chain being an issue is slim to none? i' don't have a spark tester

moliva1568 · 07-19-2009, 11:32 PM

so after trying a few more times and putting some starter fluid, i got it to start.... but it runs rough as heck in park and neutral. it stalls out when i go to put it in drive but reverse seems to work fine. i noticed when i went to put the power windows up, it seemed like the car was going to stall and the lights dimmed. the last couple of weeks when i would drive somewhere, if i was out in a few minutes, like a run to the store, it would crank real slow and eventually start. i have a new battery that i was picking up tomorrow. might this have anything to do with my whole dilemma?

shorod · 07-20-2009, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moliva1568

i sprayed some starter fluid and i still got nothing. in my research, something said that if you spray the starter fluid and it starts but shuts off in a few seconds then it's a fuel issue. if it does nothing with the starter fluid, then it's a spark or compression issue. does this make sense? if so, where do i go from here if the likelihood of the chain being an issue is slim to none? i' don't have a spark tester

This is exactly what I was trying to suggest, but I mentioned carb cleaner since I knew from a previous post you already had that.

If you have a Harbor Freight store near you, you could probably pick up a spark tester for about $2 and it would be well worth it, even though it doesn't sound like that's your problem currently.

It does sound like your battery is not maintaining its charge. It could be the alternator is not putting out sufficient voltage and/or current to keep the battery up, or the battery may be too tired to take a good charge, or cable connections may be too loose and/or dirty. Since it sounds like you've been fighting these symptoms for a few days, the alternator is probably charging.

If you've looked everything over, making sure your battery cables are clean and tight and vacuum lines are good, as well as making sure the spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap, and points are healthy, you might wait until the new battery to see what happens to your symptoms. It sounds like under load you still have something happening to cause the engine to stall. I trust the starting fluid is still being metered into the car for both reverse engagement and drive. If not, the stalling in a gear other than reverse may just be due to the extra time it takes to shift through reverse.

Unless you have an aftermarket electric fuel pump installed, it sounds like you'll likely need to dig in to the fuel system. If you're certain that fuel is getting to the carburetor in sufficient quantity, then it might be time for a carb rebuild. But, start by taking care of the things you know are an issue such as the battery.

-Rod

moliva1568 · 07-20-2009, 07:25 AM

i recently changed spark plugs, distributor cap, and rotor.the wires i wasn't able to change at that point because the auto parts store gave me hei wires. up until yesterday it hadn't done this with the exception of slow crank and it tried to drive off without letting it run for a while, stalling when hitting the gas. that was very seldom as opposed to the feeling that it was going to stall but didn't which happened more often. i just turned it on now and it came on no problem but it's doing a really rough idle. if timing is off, because that hasn't been checked, could that be a cause? if so, should there have been some signs that maybe i didn't recognize?
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shorod · 07-20-2009, 12:28 PM

I suppose if the timing were off it might give you rough idle. I'm not sure that it would cause a no-start some times and just rough idle other times. I also wouldn't expect it to start with starter fluid due to timing being off. Maybe the distributor is loose and moving around?

Carbs and being able to adjust timing are before my experience, so hopefully those more knowledgeable will offer some input on your timing questions.

-Rod

moliva1568 · 07-20-2009, 06:56 PM

i changed the fuel filter earlier and sprayed some more carb cleaner still to no avail. it runs but real rough and doesn't sound right, like no power. when i hit the gas pedal the engine and car shake violently.
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shorod · 07-20-2009, 10:52 PM

I realize on a '74 the exhaust always has an odor, but does it look or smell like it's running really rich? Your symptoms now sound quite similar to a misfire, but I suppose timing could also give those symptoms. Are you sure the plug wires are routed properly?

-Rod

moliva1568 · 07-21-2009, 07:58 AM

problem solved, i think. i changed the spark plug wires since that hadn't been done yet and it was still rough. so, i took off the distributor cap and looked inside it. 2 of the 8 points were black. i went to see if i could wipe it off and a like black film shaped like the contact fell off. i put it back on and now it seems to be running fine. any idea what caused those 2 to be black? the distributor cap and rotor are only like a month and a half old. thanks for the help

MagicRat · 07-21-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moliva1568

problem solved, i think. i changed the spark plug wires since that hadn't been done yet and it was still rough. so, i took off the distributor cap and looked inside it. 2 of the 8 points were black. i went to see if i could wipe it off and a like black film shaped like the contact fell off. i put it back on and now it seems to be running fine. any idea what caused those 2 to be black? the distributor cap and rotor are only like a month and a half old. thanks for the help

That's typical of arcing. The rotor does not actually physically touch the contacts, it just gets extremely close... close enough for the electrical energy to jump the tiny gap as a spark. If the gap is slightly too big, due to manufacturing tolerances and/or (I believe) if the plug wires are defective and shorting out to ground, the spark in that gap starts to burn the contacts.

Given the plug wires are all-new, possibly the problem will not occur. But you should keep an eye on it.

BTW... did you use carbon-core or solid-core plug wires? The solid-core wires are better for a points-type ignition, but may cause some radio interference.

moliva1568 · 07-25-2009, 11:05 AM

so i thought all was well. yesterday was my first day really driving it. on the highway i was doing about 50 and i heard a noise but since the music was on, i didn't hear it well enough to describe it. then it felt like the car shut off but it didn't. however, it did start to slow down and hitting the gas didn't do anything. a few seconds later, it did start to accelerate. i was able to get my destination but now it stumbles during idle like it's about to shut off. idle in park isn't as bad as it is in drive. it also turns on rough with a hard to describe but can't be good noise when it turns over to start. i'm going to check my distributor cap again as well as wires and plugs. what else should i check/check for. the oil gauge bounces when it, what i would guess, is misfiring. not sure if that would mean anything but i just want to describe everything i see/hear. exhaust makes like a pop pop sound too. thanks
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moliva1568 · 07-29-2009, 08:33 PM

my inexperience is now starting to show and i'm about to call it quits and pay somebody. car started this am but was still idling funny. took wire plugs and cap off to check. put back on and car started but then shut off. now when i crank it, it looks like gas or something is shooting up out the car? what have i done? and will it be an expensive fix?
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MagicRat · 07-29-2009, 10:35 PM

When you changed the cap and rotor, did you change the points and condenser?

These are two small components that sit underneath the rotor, inside the distributor. The 'points' is actually a mechanical switch and the 'condenser is a simple electronic component... it looks a bit like a silver sewing thimble with a wire attached.

These 2 components generally last 10,000 miles at most. When they go bad, the car will run rough and like to stall erratically. They are easy to change but experience is required to set the points up properly. One needs a 'dwell tachometer' to adjust the points gap properly.

As for the gas shooting up.... the car has a fuel pump attached to the engine, with a steel line (sometimes it's partially rubber) running from it to the carburetor. The gas is under relatively low pressure (about 5 psi), but if the line breaks due to rust or has loose fittings, gas can spray around the engine compartment.
Yes, this is a severe fire hazard. If you cannot fix the problem easily, have the car towed to a mechanic.

shorod · 07-30-2009, 06:43 AM

I'll let my inexperience show here. Well, sort of. Since this car is older than me, I guess I shouldn't be expected to know what the distributor setup looks like on it, right?

In post #10 above moliva mentions that the cap and rotor were replaced recently. If the car has a rotor, wouldn't that suggest it does not have a points-style ignition?

-Rod

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